Christians claim privilege over others

The catholic church claims to represent what Jesus taught and said concerning our sin problem. It has and continues to deceive people and lead them to eternal everlasting death and seperation from God.

Who are the others you are talking about?

The others? The list is quite vast....

en.wikipedia.org...

What exactly is the "sin problem" you speak of? And....how are other Christian groups different from Catholicism? I mean, I agree that Catholicism is pretty horrible and has been throughout history....but what makes the others any better?

Originally posted by Excitable_Boy


The others? The list is quite vast....

I was actually asking about the others who have gone on the killing spree's. Not denominations that claim to be christian.

Thanks for your reply especially about Rage against the Machine Rock. Seems to me that several bands have taken up this identifying fingerprint to various degrees of seriousness over the years. Rage against the Machine is one with which I am not familiar. Thank you for the explaination.

I have recently seen a cover on a album/CD by a group called Green Day where they show a hand or arm with a Heart held in it and a pin like a grenade. I found this very odd. It came across as political when I read the titles of the songs ..though not quite as radical as your description of Rage against the Machine.

As to politics seducing Christianity..I would like to add the knowlege that religion is the most powerful political tool. It always was and always will be.
I say "Religion" not particularly what type... It is here where the controversy begins.

What concerns me is that the history I read indicates carefully that the money powers have prively used Christianity as a front for entrance and monitoring of many nations before getting them heavily into debt....and often war. This monitoring often through missionary efforts, Red Cross functions etc etc. They must nominally appear Christian but behind the scenes they seem wont to practice another religion which can only exist in secret. Debt loading by the money powers seems to be a fingerprint of a religion seldom published or written about ..only in very vague shadows. The buisness of the Falklands Islands War in the early 1980s appears to be textbook of this kind of debt loading.
As to Iraq..I am considering this carefully. It appears to be much more than is included in the daily news...much more than the news is wont to publish. I believe it is definitely about oil but not in the manner most people think of it. The democracy is a cover for what is really going on. I think the money/oil powers want to put the whole country and its oil in storage...off the market..and keep competitors out. War is the perfect tool to do this as is terrorist style instability.
Years ago the money powers were wont to utilize communism to put a nation into storage and its output off the market so as not to affect prices of certain commoditys. Today it appears to be Islam replacing communism.
By the way..Communism too is a religion..it... like the RCC doesnt brook competition. Or as Hegel stated.."The State is God."

No I am not holier than thou. It comes across to some as such because when I have had enough of such as is going on in this thread I will speak my mind. Most of the time I let it go or pass by. This time I chose to speak up.

There is no way I can be priveleged..in the manner spoken of by Excitable Boy in this thread...with the background I have acquired in Christianity. I have stated may times in different posts that I deserve nothing better than hell and damnation and God would be perfectly Just and Rightious in sending me there. The choice is His ..not mine. I cannot save anyone nor condem anyone..to heaven or hell. Not within my abilities.
I will however speak up for the Faith when I tire of such wildlife in its natural habitat...sometimes known as natural man. Most of the time I let it go.

I note that you were cleaning marine tanks. I am assuming that this is a aquarium.
The woman I see is a apartment manager and she had some people evicted. It seems they could not on such short notice take their aquarium with them and left it complete with the fish in it..Jack Dempsys. She asked if I would take it and care for the fish. I did so and have enjoyed it since. Very relaxing if maintained properly. I have even extended it to setting up two of those small ones which sit on a desk top with about a gallon of water in them. I really enjoy those also..very relaxing.

Excitable Boy ..I think you are using the term JW to mean Jehovahs Witness. I am not Jehovahs Witness. I dont know what gave you that impression but you need to study Christianity much more if you have made that mistake in assumption. My Knowlege and Faith come out of a line of congregations which are of the Olde School Baptists.

Thanks to all for thier posts,
Orangetom

Originally posted by Excitable_Boy



What exactly is the "sin problem" you speak of? And....how are other Christian groups different from Catholicism?

The sin problem is that each person is born away from God with a sin nature(violating God's laws). This sin nature will manifest itself given time and will result in acts of sin(violations against God and His laws).

This sin nature and sins seperate us from God. That has to be removed or each will spend eternity seperated from God. Christ came and took upon Himself the wrath of God, against sin. If one places if in Christ completed work on the cross, those sins are removed and that person has the Holy Spirit come and live in them and forgiveness is theirs and eternity with God is their future.

Catholicism teaches that the priest turns the Eucharist and wine into the actual body and blood of Christ. When a person ingests these substances then that is how somehow receives Christ. No, that is how someone physically eats food. Plus those elements are still a wafer and wine.

Receiving Christ is a mental decision that someone makes. A mental decision of the will that you have decided to place your trust in Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. Then the Holy Spriit comes and indwells that person and makes that person spirit sensitive to the things of God. That is how Christ is received and that is how a life is changed. The God of the universe comes and lives inside a person and as that person surrend4ers himself to the Holy Spirit and learns from Him a change occurs.

Eating a wafer and wine will not change a persons sin nature. A physical act will not change a spiritual condition. After a spiritual condition has been changed through receiving Christ, then a persons physical acts that are done can be changed.

Mormonism is false, Jehovah witness' are false, I would also be leery of the foursquare gospel denomination. I believe those 4 are flawed in their foundations and are not true christianity. As there are others I would have to investigate them.

I also just read on another thread that you were abused by a priest. That would explain your hatred for christianity. Remember the catholic denomination is NOT true christianity.

The sin problem is that each person is born away from God with a sin nature(violating God's laws).

I honestly don't believe someone can be born that way. There is no sin nature.

Catholicism teaches that the priest turns the Eucharist and wine into the actual body and blood of Christ. When a person ingests these substances then that is how somehow receives Christ. No, that is how someone physically eats food. Plus those elements are still a wafer and wine.

Receiving Christ is a mental decision that someone makes.

Isn't it then a mental decision to eat the wafer and drink the wine? Can one do that without deciding to do it? Aren't they basically the exact same things, just done in a different way?

The God of the universe comes and lives inside a person

Why doesn't God just live inside everyone anyway? Why would God create mistakes that need to be fixed before He is willing to except them? I don't think God creates mistakes.

Mormonism is false, Jehovah witness' are false, I would also be leery of the foursquare gospel denomination. I believe those 4 are flawed in their foundations and are not true christianity. As there are others I would have to investigate them.

What form of Christian are you and why is yours right and all the rest wrong? Four square...is that Quakers? Why isn't Catholicism true Christianity? and again, why is your belief right and all the rest wrong?

Thanks!!

Originally posted by Excitable_Boy

I honestly don't believe someone can be born that way. There is no sin nature.


Isn't it then a mental decision to eat the wafer and drink the wine? Can one do that without deciding to do it? Aren't they basically the exact same things, just done in a different way?


Why doesn't God just live inside everyone anyway? Why would God create mistakes that need to be fixed before He is willing to except them? I don't think God creates mistakes.


What form of Christian are you and why is yours right and all the rest wrong? Four square...is that Quakers? Why isn't Catholicism true Christianity? and again, why is your belief right and all the rest wrong?

Thanks!!

Genesis 1:27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.

Genesis 1:31 And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day.

Genesis 2:15 And the LORD God took the man, and put him into the garden of Eden to dress it and to keep it.
[16] And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat:
[17] But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

Gen.3
[1] Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made. And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden?
[2] And the woman said unto the serpent, We may eat of the fruit of the trees of the garden:
[3] But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die.
[4] And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:
[5] For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.
[6] And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat.

Genesis 5:3And Adam lived an hundred and thirty years, and begat a son in his own likeness, after his image; and called his name Seth:

Adam and Eve were made in God's image, when they disobeyed, sin entered the human race, their spirits died and then in Gen. 5:3 we are told that the children born after that were in Adam's image with the sin nature passed along.

Eating the wafer isn't how someone receives Christ. They are not the same things. That wafer isn't changed into Christ, it is still the same wafer it was when it was made. That wafer will doing nothing to help your spiritual condition. Eating that wafer is a decision, but it's a decision to eat some food that feeds the physical body. Adam and Eve made a mental decision to disobey God and sin entered the human race. For sin to be removed each individual must make a mental decision to place their faith in Christ for the forgiveness of sin. We are talking about the soul here.

I don't know if this helps. Suppose someone committs adultery and they are catholic. They have a feeling they are doing wrong. They decide to go to church and ingest the eucharist and are under the assumption that it should change them if they are doing wrong. Since that wafer doesn't have the capability to change that person spiritually that person continues on in their sin. The sin hasn't been removed nor have their desires been changed.

Now someone, anyone catholic, methodist, atheist. They are in the same situation and they hear the gospel. How it is a decision to place faith in Christ alone for salvation. No ingesting anything. Simply trusting and believing that Jesus Christ is the only way of salvation and the only way for sin and sins to be forgiven. That person has been drawn by the Holy Spirit and heard the truth and believed it and placed their faith in it. Salvation then occurs in that life. The Holy Spirit who you cannot see(you see the wafer, that is still a wafer) enters that person and The Holy Spirit brings that person's dead spirit back to life and makes it sensitive to the things of God. That person is a new creation.



God didn't make a mistake. Everything when He created it was good. satan and his angels and man rejected God, that's where the problem started.

God cannot live with sin, that sin must be punished, which means death and seperation from God. That's God's law and the way it is. So either we pay for our sin and are seperated from God or God puts into place the alternative plan. Having our sin placed onto someone else. Someone sinless who had no sin of His own to pay for, Jesus. So that's how our sin is removed and forgiven, by a transference to Christ and in return we are given the righteousness of Christ.

Why did God do it this way. We don't know the complete answer to that question outside of eternity, but here is one reason.

People are a triune being "like" God. We have a body, soul and spirit. The Bible tells us God walked with Adam and Eve, as in 3 friends walking next to each other.
When adam and Eve fell, God(the Father) could no longer do that. He was seperated from them. Jesus came to them in the garden after the fall but not God in His complete fulness. That's not the way God intended, but He knew what would happen so He had the plan already in place to fix the problem, AND, I believe upgrade His relationship with mankind, so that it will be better than the original setup.

If 2(Adam and God, Eve and God, Me and God, You and God), what's the closest they can be. Probably holding hands right?

What if there is another way to be even closer, which is what God desires. What if God can live in us. Because of what Christ has done to remove sin, the God of the Universe lives in those who place their faith in Christ. This also brings another closeness. Since The Holy Spirit(God) lives in us, our spirit is joined to His Spirit and we are given insight into the Mind of God. We are capable of seeing things and knowing things that God knows.

satan's lie was that if they ate from the tree of knowledge of good and evil they would be like God. satan lied and he knew he was lying,..........but what he didn't know was that he was also kinda telling the truth to a degree.

The lie part was they wouldn't know good and evil, in reality they did good and evil.
and death came to man. The truth he wasn't aware that he played a part in was this,
Galatians ch. 4
[4] But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law,
[5] To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons.
[6] And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father.
[7] Wherefore thou art no more a servant, but a son; and if a son, then an heir of God through Christ.

So now God lives inside those who place their faith in Christ and guess what, we are going to be like God. A down payment has come and then at Christ's return and in eternity the complete payment is made.

Now when I say like God I don't mean we will be a God, remember that was satan's lie, that we could be God. But we will be "like" God. We will be able to do some of the things He does and we will know the things He knows and we will learn who He is in totality. But this will take all of eternity to find out. And Adam and Eve couldn't travel the universe. We will be able to do that. We are an heir of God. He is going to share the universe(and whatever else there is) with us because of what Christ did, if we simply will place faith in Christ.

I am a christian. I am a member of an Evangelical Free Church. Their articles of faith are Biblically based and sound. Is my denomination the only one with sound doctrine, no. Are all the people who attend my church saved, I'd like to think so, but I doubt it. Are there others from other denominations who are saved, absolutely.

The truth of what the Bible about salvation is what one should strive to know.

That can be found in some denominations and others are false.

Jesus warned of this in Matthew 24:4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.
[5] For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.

What He was saying was that not all would tell the truth of salvation. They will use His name and claim to know Him but really don't. They will claim to tell the truth but really don't.



[edit on 12-6-2006 by dbrandt]

I wish to add my words into this discussion, as it is an issue that has been in my mind for a long time as a Christian. I do not believe I am special, that I have privilege over others. I believe in the seperation of church and state, firmly, and uphold the rights of others for things I would never do personally, such as homosexuality. I also do not believe that non-christians are damned to hell, and wish to state my biblical reasons for supporting this view. I believe people have mis-used scripture over the years to create a dangerous mentality in people of the Christian faith. Being it splintering our faith, or trying to put us on a pedestal, some have been taught that to be a non-believer in Christ is a straight ticket to hell. This scripture is usually given as the reason why;

He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned."
However, many leave out the verse before it, Mark 16:15 :
Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.

Together, then, it seems that if you are given the gospel and reject it, then you are damned. However, if you are not given the gospel, how can you be judged as rejecting it? For example, the words of Jesus on the cross as he died in Luke were, "father forgive them, they know not what they do." This sounds like a strong indicator that he didn't plan on damning the Roman soldiers regardless of what they had done to him. There is another scripture many use to creat a feeling of exclusivity (a word?), which is John 14:6 - Jesus said to him, "I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father, but by me. " However, I believe this to merely be a mentioning of the fact that Jesus is the sole judger of men, and that he truly does decide who shall enter Heaven, and who shall not. Does denying everyone ignorant of his teachings entrance to Heaven fall in to line with his teachings of love?

At this point, I believe that belief and acceptance of Jesus Christ as the son of God is the sure way to enter Heaven. However, I do not see it as the only way. Think of the parable of the Goats and the Sheep. Look up Matthew 25:31-46 if you are not familiar with it. In this parable, he saves the people that have shown love, and rejects those that have denied that love. John 1, Chapter 4, states in verses 7 and 8 that, "Beloved, let us love one another: for love is of God; and every one that loveth is born of God, and knoweth God. He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love." This to me makes it obvious that God is within us all. If one hears the message of Christ, and believes it not, to me that person will go to Hell. He has denied the message of love, and as he is not of love, he is not of God.

However, say a Buddhist in his temple, if he has love in his heart, and is not a man of hate, then he has God within him, and has the potential to be saved by Jesus, because that love inside him is the very core of the divine. It is true the the Bible tells us man can not be saved by his own merits alone, only Christ is sufficient for saving. Verse 16 of the same chapter says that, "God is love, and anyone who live sin love is living with God and God is living in him." Romans 2: says that, "He will punish sin wherever it is found. He will punish the heathen (non-believer) when they sin, even though they have never had God's written laws, for down in their hearts they know right from wrong. God's laws are written within them." To me this quote clears up that Christians are not the only ones with the law of God.

My final quote will be Timothy 1, 4:10, which says that,"For to this end we toil and strive, because we have our hope set on the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of those who believe." He is the SAVIOR of ALL men, ESPECIALLY his followers." It is ESPECIALLY, not ONLY.

To sum it up, the scripture as I interpret it does not exclude non-christians from heaven, only those who hear the message and ignore it.

[edit on 6/12/2006 by Wiley_Wonka]

Originally posted by Wiley_Wonka
I also do not believe that non-christians are damned to hell,

I can understand where you are coming from but it is a dangerous belief when the Bible says different.

1 John ch. 5

9......for this is the witness of God which he hath testified of his Son.
[10] He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son.
[11] And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.
[12] He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.
[13] These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.

I understand the conflicting nature of these verses, and am currently studying them. In the mean time, I would like your thoughts on the verses I have posted. I also reject your notion that my belief is "dangerous". I believe wholly in Christ, and as such, by our apparently shared faith, shall be saved. My personal interpretation of the Bible regarding this matter can hardly be contrued as dangerous, as it is a subject that does not concern my salvation, but the salvation of others. If you think my faith or salvation in danger because of how the words of the Bible have chosen to reveal themselves to me in a certain way, I would question your authority to hold such an opinion. I would say we all have the right to glean from the scriptures and find differing results.

Originally posted by Wiley_Wonka
but the salvation of others.

When I said it was dangerous this is the exact reason I meant.

Ah, I understand then. However, I would not actively tell someone they shouldn't consider Christianity because "I believe that it isn't neccesary". That was not the gist of what I said. Like I commented in my original post, I believe anyone who receives the message and rejects it will not enter heaven. I wish for those I care about to come to my faith not because of fear of hell for them, but the love and comfort I feel as a Christian. I will not tell someone they are going to Hell, because that is beyond my capacity to judge. Doing so goes against what we are taught, as we are instructed that only Jesus can be a judge of that. That does not mean I would not promote my faith to them if asked, however. I simply doubt that some loving and pious Hindu peasant 2,100 years ago will be denied heaven because he was born before Christ. It is not a central concern to my salvation, and as such I am willing to interpret the scriptures dealing with this on my own, and also receive the views of others.

[edit on 6/12/2006 by Wiley_Wonka]

Here's what I believe these verses say and confirm

Mark 16:[15] And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.
[16] He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

In the verses order, the gospel is to be preached by followers of Christ. Since these died it goes through successive generations. Then whoever believes(believes what, the Gospel) will be saved, those that don't are damned.

Luke 23:[34] Then said Jesus, Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do. And they parted his raiment, and cast lots.

I would say that the 2nd part of that verse is key. The soldiers had just nailed Him to the cross. Now on top of that they were fighting over an article of clothing, that was probably blood stained, sweaty and dirty. Were they adding insult to injury and showing the depravity of mankind. How low we will sink. 3 people are dying, that should humble us, yet here they were bickering and gambling for a dead man's robe.

I think we are being shown how low we can sink, but how high the love of God is. Jesus is even asking for their senseless, thoughtless, stupid, unnecesary sins, and ours to be forgiven through Him.

John 14:[5] Thomas saith unto him, Lord, we know not whither thou goest; and how can we know the way?
6] Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

This is one of those that is pretty straightforward. It means what it says! Thomas is a doubter. Isn't that what we all were before we believed.

Matthew 25:31-46 From what I know of this is that there will be differnet nations in existence during the millennial reign of Christ. Some nations that are in existance now, will not be during the millennium. It all depends on how they treated God's people, whether this means Israel or christians or both I would have to read up more. This is a judgment of peoples groups who will inhabit the earth during the millennium.

I put the whole chapter down.
1John.4
[1] Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.
[2] Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God:
[3] And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.
[4] Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.
[5] They are of the world: therefore speak they of the world, and the world heareth them.
[6] We are of God: he that knoweth God heareth us; he that is not of God heareth not us. Hereby know we the spirit of truth, and the spirit of error.
[7] Beloved, let us love one another: for love is of God; and every one that loveth is born of God, and knoweth God.
[8] He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love.
[9] In this was manifested the love of God toward us, because that God sent his only begotten Son into the world, that we might live through him.
[10] Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that he loved us, and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins.
[11] Beloved, if God so loved us, we ought also to love one another.
[12] No man hath seen God at any time. If we love one another, God dwelleth in us, and his love is perfected in us.
[13] Hereby know we that we dwell in him, and he in us, because he hath given us of his Spirit.
[14] And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be the Saviour of the world.
[15] Whosoever shall confess that Jesus is the Son of God, God dwelleth in him, and he in God.
[16] And we have known and believed the love that God hath to us. God is love; and he that dwelleth in love dwelleth in God, and God in him.
[17] Herein is our love made perfect, that we may have boldness in the day of judgment: because as he is, so are we in this world.
[18] There is no fear in love; but perfect love casteth out fear: because fear hath torment. He that feareth is not made perfect in love.
[19] We love him, because he first loved us.
[20] If a man say, I love God, and hateth his brother, he is a liar: for he that loveth not his brother whom he hath seen, how can he love God whom he hath not seen?
[21] And this commandment have we from him, That he who loveth God love his brother also.

Once again we are warned of deceivers who will not tell the truth concerning God's plan of salvation, so we are to be on guard and test the message we are hearing to see if it's true. Some will say there is no need for Christ to come and bring redemption for sin. That person, spirit, group, denomination is antichrist(against Christ). It seems to me God is once again stressing the importance of Jesus Christ and Him being the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

As far as love, God initiated it in Christ, if we receive Christ we can feel and show this same love to others. The love we are born with is not the degree of love God wants us to have and showforth. This love comes from the Holy Spirit who only comes to live in a person at the salvation received through Christ. Even then it is not going to be complete this side of eternity.

Romans 2 talks about the conscience of men and women. People have a conscience that does have a degree of knowing right and wrong. So some who don't know God, have not done some sins that some who do know God have done.

Good to know. So we all won't turn out to be a Hitler or bin laden. But we also know this
Romans 3:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
&
Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.


Last 1 Timothy 4:10 For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.

Jesus Christ died for all men and women. All sin of all times was placed on Him at the cross. Even Hitler's, although it doesn't appear Hitler took advantage of this. God is telling us it's available to everyone and anyone. He's is not discriminating against anyone, simply believe the Gospel. This also seems to say another thing. It says Jesus is the Savior of all mankind. Now some will tell you Ok, Jesus saves, but so does my Hindu religion or my Buddist religion or Kabbalah or whatever religion. No, God is once again narrowing it down to Jesus Christ alone.



[edit on 12-6-2006 by dbrandt]

[edit on 12-6-2006 by dbrandt]

[edit on 12-6-2006 by dbrandt]

[edit on 12-6-2006 by dbrandt]

God didn't make a mistake. Everything when He created it was good. satan and his angels and man rejected God, that's where the problem started.

God cannot live with sin, that sin must be punished, which means death and seperation from God. That's God's law and the way it is.

So where did Satan come from? If God created everything, where did Satan come from? And if God doesn't make mistakes, explain Satan. You say everything God created was good...so, explain Satan. THERE IS NO SATAN!!

Genesis? The Bible isn't God's law. It's man's law. Did God write the Bible or did man? The story of Adam & Eve is a nice fairy tale, but it's not factual...not by a long shot. There is no separation in death from God....quite the opposite!

Quote all the scriptures you want...

Jesus, the mortal prophet did not die for our sins that we didn't even commit yet. Babies aren't born with sin.....this is all ludicrous nonsense and the main reason why I don't follow any religion.

The Bible doesn't teach babies go to Hell when they die, maybe Calvin did through inherited sin, but the bible doesn't. Samuel 2 12:22-23 tells of the death of King David's young son. He *clearly* says in this passage, "But now he is dead, wherefore should I fast? Can i bring him back again? *I shall go to him*, but he shall not return to me"

Since David wrote, "Surely goodness and mercy shall follow me all the days of my life: and I will dwell in the house of the Lord for ever", it seems to me if he is going to his son, his son is in heaven.

Also, Mattew 18:3-5 says, "Assuredly, I say to you, unless you are converted and become as little children, you will by no means enter the kingdom of heaven. Therefore whoever humbles himself as this little child is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven. Whoever receives one little child like this in My name receives Me."

It doesn't sound like he's exactly damning babies. Let us not forget these little children do *not* inherit the sins of their fathers. Ezekiel 18:20 says that, "The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of ths son; the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him."

The doctrine of original sin is a very conflicting thing, and I can as easily deny it through what the Bible says as what some people try to prove it with. Basing one of your most controversial views on Christianity though a doctrine like this, that is not easily supported by the Bible, may not be all that good for your understanding of the religion.

Originally posted by Excitable_Boy

Babies aren't born with sin.....

Babies aren't born having committed a sin, but they are born with a sin nature. Give it a couple of years and it will be evident. You don't have to teach someone to lie, it will manifest itself in time. Christ died for sins and to remove our sin nature.

I also agree babies and even children up to a certain age if they die will go directly to heaven and will live for eternity with God.

Babies aren't born having committed a sin, but they are born with a sin nature. Give it a couple of years and it will be evident. You don't have to teach someone to lie, it will manifest itself in time.

Right...it's called being human. Do you understand what being human is? It means we are not perfect. It means we make mistakes. God understand this because, HE MADE US!!

If God wanted us to be something other than human, He would have made us such!

And all those scriptures you all keep quoting? You know what I think they mean? Absolutely nothing. They were written by men. You have already stated that men have a sin nature, so what was to stop the originators of the Bible from making all kinds of stuff up? We already know it doesn't matter how devout someone is in their faith they still lie, cheat, rape, murder, steal, etc......so why should anyone take the Bible to be the words or "inspired words" of God?

Makes no sense...........

[edit on 13-6-2006 by Excitable_Boy]

Yes we understand what it means to be human. No problem here with being human in understanding. I am very very sure God also understands what it means to be human.

This is where the difference in views comes into play. YOu know only humanity ..and what it means to be human. The human perspective or the flesh is what is put forth in most of your posts ..only the human perspective.

What you are not wont to understand is that there are people out here not instrested in our humanity. We have a kindred spirit with the flesh..since we once glorified the flesh ..but most of us have move on from that view to the view of the Word and what it means. We are trying to get away from that fleshly point of view. We may disagree in what it says..but no doubt by many of the postings here the Christians dont want to go back to what they were before their conversion. They now have new eyes...a new soul...not put there by themselves..but by God..for God's purposes. How do we know this ..the tendency is to not glorify the flesh or our human attributes.

The point is here that God did make us something other than human... No where in Gods Word does He instruct us to glorify our humanity. He instructs us to Glorify Him...over and over...all Praise and Glory to Him ...not the traditions of men. Not our humanity. Our humanity , our flesh is to be downplayed..exactly the opposite of what you propose in your posts.
What is known historically is that glorifying humanity is exactly what the nations surrounding Ancient Israel were doing in all thier variations. We have this fingerprint and knowlege from Biblical as well as secular history. This is well documented for those who want to research it ..and from non biblical sources. Much of this information will never be made public for good reason..we are never to know what humans are wont to do in glorifying thier humanity. We might see close parallels with todays history and conduct.

For the purposes of your points you are wont to drag us back into that olde human flesh..clearly fingerprinting your soul and the name of your god. You cannot help yourself. To further reinforce your position you must discard all the Word says and replace it with the works of the flesh...what I want....what I will be....I will be ...I will be...I will be...I will be. Five times it was said..the olde I will be...I will be like the most high. A human being by a act of his will...his humaity can reach up to God. A demigod here on this earth.. Five times it was said...I wll be like the most high.

How do I know this ..Gods Word is clearly not written on your heart. No problem here ...you have another word written on your heart..the human word of which we have ample history to follow. It can be easily fingerprinted. The glory of humans and humanity. Always the identifying fingerprint is that Gods Word means nothing to them. Some of them even hold it up for the public to see but in secret ..where they say .."God doesnt see what we do.." they will do something entirely ungodly. That which they were told not to do ..not to touch..not to do...they do... as the nations surrounding them did.

No problem with your posts..Excitable Boy..please keep going so that others here can see the olde "I will be.." in all its variations one of which is as you have stated..all gods are the same god.. all beliefs are the same belief..they are all the same. Therefore there is only one god..but it is not of the Word. Our god is the one....the one...the one ..the one.. the one.. Five times. I will be...five times also.

Thanks,
Orangetom

This is where the difference in views comes into play. YOu know only humanity ..and what it means to be human. The human perspective or the flesh is what is put forth in most of your posts ..only the human perspective.

That's right. I am human and I know the human perspective. As is the same of you or any other human. Any of you who presume to be otherwise are kidding yourselves and everyone around you. You are being as false prophets. You are under the belief that you are as God....and you are not....you are way off. So...who's the pretender here?

I am human and claim to be nothing more. You appear to think you and your kind are super-human. You are mistaken.

The point is here that God did make us something other than human

Yeah...the Super-Human Jesus Cult. Don't drink the Kool-Aid.

What is known historically is that glorifying humanity is exactly what the nations surrounding Ancient Israel were doing in all thier variations.

Is that why the Christians decided to commit genocide against the Jews, Muslims and any other non-Christians?? Hmmm?? Seems like the book was written to justify the slaughter....not the other way around.

where they say .."God doesnt see what we do.." they will do something entirely ungodly. That which they were told not to do ..not to touch..not to do...they do... as the nations surrounding them did.

Who are you talking about here? Because you have a lot of nerve Tom. But actually, not much...sitting behind your keyboard. Are you afraid to leave the house because you are afraid of what you'll do? Are you hiding behind the Bible? Something sinister in your closet? Who are YOU to point the finger at others? Do you know who you are pointing your finger at? What makes you better? Who made you God? Don't judge lest ye be judged? Is this good Christian behavior?

Holier than thou, bible thumping, got-something-in-the-closet fanatic.....

No problem with your posts..Excitable Boy..please keep going so that others here can see the olde "I will be.."

I will be? I will be what Tom? I will be right here waiting for you to write more crap.....

[edit on 13-6-2006 by Excitable_Boy]

Originally posted by Excitable_Boy


Is that why the Christians decided to commit genocide against the Jews, Muslims and any other non-Christians?? Hmmm?? Seems like the book was written to justify the slaughter....not the other way around.

You have an awful lot of anger(which is understandable considering that a priest abused you). But you are lumping all christianity under the umbrella of catholicism and what they have done throughout the centuries. catholicism is not christianity. That fact is something only you can get over, and I hope you do someday or you will never know the truth that is presented in the Bible about Jesus Christ.

You have an awful lot of anger(which is understandable considering that a priest abused you). But you are lumping all christianity under the umbrella of catholicism and what they have done throughout the centuries. catholicism is not christianity. That fact is something only you can get over, and I hope you do someday or you will never know the truth that is presented in the Bible about Jesus Christ.

Do you need to continuously bring up the abuse? Can we move on from that? Can we pretend like we don't know that information and move on?

I am not lumping Christianity under the umbrella of Catholicism. I am lumping Christianity with Christianity.

Is there any truth in the Bible? And if you think so, why do you think so? And, what proof do you have?

The Bible isn't truth. God is truth.