Originally posted by darkelf
Sorry oldtimer, no one is "born a Christian. It is a choice. That's what free will is all about.

How is it a choice when if you decline it you are sentenced to eternity in Hell?

THe church is the "body or assembly" not the building.

However if you think of church or religion from the standpoint of "Nicolaitianism" or a clergy seperate from the laity...it becomes the building...ie ..priesthood.

In Christianity ..the clergy is not seperate from the laity...they are a part of the laity...but have a particular calling.

Public education ..and modern thinking ..tend to put the church as a building..it was never so. IN olde days...often Baptists used to put BM over the doors of their buildings meaning Baptist Meeting house. IN the case of the Methodists..it was MM for Methodist Meeting House. These are concepts not taught much anymore now that we are "modern " and "educated"....even among many Christians.
The church is the assembly or body of Believers. Never is it the building.
As a matter of fact..if you read carefully ..the pattern is from Olde Testament to New...the Church or Assembly is never intended to reside permanently...but to be portable..to go where God directed them. This earth and everything in it is a temporary place for the Believer. Little wonder the switch in thinking to having a permanent building being the church..the very opposite of the early Christians.

And the point about AA meetings ...later is important why????


Thanks,
Orangetom

YOu posted:

"And for the record it is the organized religion who provide you with bibles"


And this is important and significant why???


Thanks,
Orangetom

Originally posted by orangetom1999
I have to agree with darkelf..I dont like religion in the organized sense..

You think you would have Bibles if it wasn't for this organized religion?

Originally posted by Panzeroth

Originally posted by darkelf
Sorry oldtimer, no one is "born a Christian. It is a choice. That's what free will is all about.

How is it a choice when if you decline it you are sentenced to eternity in Hell?

At the risk of sounding like John Kerry, I have to say that I declined it before I accepted it. Nevertheless, whether I decline or accept it, it is still MY choice.

Originally posted by orangetom1999
And the point about AA meetings ...later is important why????

It has to do with the building Tom. Many churches loan their buildings to 12 step groups.

Originally posted by Panzeroth

Originally posted by orangetom1999
I have to agree with darkelf..I dont like religion in the organized sense..

You think you would have Bibles if it wasn't for this organized religion?

The first churches had letters from the apostles and the books from what we now call the Old Testament. They also read from books not canonized into today’s Bible, such as the book of Enoch. If not for organized religion, we would have a larger choice or reading material.

You lost me...panzeroth..why is this important about organized religions and the bible.

What I know is that there are or were historically many organized religions ..not all of them Christian.

We have the example of Sennecharib's Prisim or column..his records of his conquerings. Sennecharib was a Assyrian King of a organized religion..definitely not Hebrew..or Christian either. Yet here we have a example of a Assyrian King giving veracity to the bible accounts on his hexapla column..of his conquerings.
On this column we have the records of he besieged this city and it fell and the records of the battles...He besieges that city and it fell...so many were killed sold off etc etc..etc.. And then we have ..He besieged Jerusalem...and nothing.
God said that he would preserve Jerusalem against attack in the Olde Testament times. That is what is in the column in Chicago..in the Oriental Museum. Intresting museum...Oriental Museum. Intresting to learn what happened to olde Sennacharib in the end.

Nebuchadnezzer another example...and it is written that Nebuchadnezzer served God..Nebuchadnezzer my servant..it is written.

Pharoah also served God....against Pharoahs will. Many times Pharoah wanted to let the Children of Israel lead by Moses...go...but his heart was hardened by God.
Pharoah was also the head of a organized religion..but he served God.

In about 1609 a King of England ...James the 1st caused to be written a bible in English..which was to go on to be the greatest example of a Bible in the English language ever written. Even non believers will tell you that the work in English is a very good literary work. This bible was for the peoples of England..a protestant nation.
THe irony of this is that King James was a Catholic from Scotland. IF he knew historically what would happen to England as a result of his commissioning this Bible ..he probably never would have commissioned it. Remember ..there were already Bibles in English in England...also in Latin...Greek etc..these languages were known by the Englishmen who could read. The Tynsdale ..Wycliff ...also the latin versions...also the Great English Bible was available. The Great English bible was the bible the Colonists were to bring with them here to Jamestown , Virginia about 30 miles north west of me....in 1607.
My point in all of this is that organized religion is a tool in Gods hands as well as His people. They all serve Him..if he so desires. This is going to be important down the road...in the future..in a manner unknown to most believers..and even unbelievers.

Thanks to all for thier posts,
Orangetom

Oh and yes Darkelf..I know that many churchs use their buildings for AA meetings ..I just didnt understand why that was important in the context of what about we were posting. Thanks.

My point in all of this is that organized religion is a tool in Gods hands as well as His people.

Organized religion is a HUMAN thing, not a GOD thing. Humans developed organized religion, not GOD!! You Tom, however, are a tool...in God's hands!

Originally posted by orangetom1999
You lost me...panzeroth..why is this important about organized religions and the bible.

Someone up there said he/she was cool with Christianity and everything but didn't like organized religion. If there were no organized religion there would be no Bibles and there would be no spreading of the Word. Well maybe on a really really small scale.

Originally posted by darkelf
At the risk of sounding like John Kerry, I have to say that I declined it before I accepted it. Nevertheless, whether I decline or accept it, it is still MY choice.

Nonsense. Nobody in their right minds will ever decline it if they know (believe) they will go to Hell for it. It's not the love of God, it's the fear of Hell. Fear has, is and will always be what keeps Christendom together.

Originally posted by Panzeroth

Originally posted by darkelf
At the risk of sounding like John Kerry, I have to say that I declined it before I accepted it. Nevertheless, whether I decline or accept it, it is still MY choice.

Nonsense. Nobody in their right minds will ever decline it if they know (believe) they will go to Hell for it. It's not the love of God, it's the fear of Hell. Fear has, is and will always be what keeps Christendom together.

I declined it because I didn't believe it. I didn't believe in hell or God. There are tons of people on this site who still don't believe it. Are you saying that they are not in their right mind?

My belief changed when I had a spiritual epiphany. I grew up in a Baptist church. I hated church and all the hypocrisy. It wasn't a fear of hell that changed my mind. It was the love of God reaching out to me when I needed it most. I follow Christ, not a church.

I'm refering in majority to the way Christianity has been spread throughout the centuries. People were given a choice, believe in God and give us money or go to Hell. Of course they would pay up "knowing" that if they didn't they would suffer immolation for eternity.

You saw an option, these people had none, and still today the Church has more than enough influence on people to keep them from using their head.

I agree with what Darkelf posted.

Christians are no holier than anyone else.

The doctrine I know which many "churchs" seem reluctant to teach thier sheep is that All of us deserve hell and damnation...Christian as well as unbeliever. On our own merits we are heading there fast...Christians as well as unbeliever. God would be perfectly just and rightious in sending me there. On my own merits I can claim nothing.

Many Christian churchs seem reluctant to teach this to thier flocks. Probably for fear themselves of loosing sheep/moneys. Hence my disapproval of organized religion..any type...even paganism. Nicolaitianism is what it is. Nevertheless this is the Christian doctrine I know. Not that I am holier than anyone else nor entitled to more than anyone else.

Properly schooled Christian should have fears..but also important that they have Faith.

Fear as such is not taught among unbelievers..as if they should never in thier religions be subject to fear. This is one fingerprint by which I look in telling of pagan traits. No Fear is quite popular now days. Even sometimes substituting for Christianity..as it was in the pattern of the Hebrews operating in lieu of the Law.

Thanks,
Orangetom

Fear as such is not taught among unbelievers..as if they should never in thier religions be subject to fear. This is one fingerprint by which I look in telling of pagan traits. No Fear is quite popular now days. Even sometimes substituting for Christianity..as it was in the pattern of the Hebrews operating in lieu of the Law.

What is it they should fear? Are you talking about altar boys fearing Catholic priests? That kind of thing? I'm not sure I understand why anyone should be subject to fear in their religion.

Why do you bring up Hebrews? Do you believe Jews are bad because they are not Christians? I find this post very confusing!

Well ..Its like I posted...no fear.

What I was getting at is that "no fear" is often a substitute doctrine..often entering in lieu of Christian doctrine. In like manner as the Hebrews substituted man made doctrine and tradition for what they were instructed in the Olde Testament ..God's Law..given to Moses on the Mount at Siani.
No fear often substuted in like manner for New Testament teachings.

By the way..since you dont seem to get the point about fear.. Please give me the name of your god ..by name??

Thanks,
Orangetom

tom,

I have to disagree. My God is Jesus Christ.

1 John 4:

18 There is no fear in love; but perfect love casteth out fear: because fear hath torment. He that feareth is not made perfect in love.

No Fear!

Originally posted by darkelf
tom,

I have to disagree. My God is Jesus Christ.

1 John 4:

18 There is no fear in love; but perfect love casteth out fear: because fear hath torment. He that feareth is not made perfect in love.

No Fear!

I think you are misunderstanding the concept orangetom is presenting about fear. He isn't saying Christians do or should live in fear...of course not, like you post "There is no fear in love..."

what orangetom I believe is saying, and what I see alot of, is the doctrine of "Have NO Fear! There is no God! There is no sin! There are no repercussions! There is no afterlife! Eat drink and be merry!" etc.

or "Have no fear, we are ALL saved by Jesus or____! so do whatever you like and live in sin or without morals or justification! because we are ALL saved already and have no accountability of our own!"

See the difference?

and look at the second part of the passage you quote too "he that feareth is not made perfect in love" so what He is saying there I believe, is those that those who(should) fear then are those not saved and made perfect in love (sinless through Him)

anyway, I have to get back to excitable boy...

Originally posted by think2much
I think you are misunderstanding the concept orangetom is presenting about fear. He isn't saying Christians do or should live in fear...of course not, like you post "There is no fear in love..."

Thanks, my apologies, I do tend to misunderstand sometimes. All part of the adult ADHD. Then his post relates to my earlier one. Belief in God, the Bible, etc. is a choice. It breaks my heart to see what so many well meaning but uninformed people have distorted Jesus's message.

What the Bible states and what Christians try to impart is that ALL people are born in the condition of sin. NO ONE deserves heaven. God gives a solution to this dilema through His Son.

No one says you HAVE to accept this gift! You have just as much right to disbelieve in God as we do to believe. Most Christians preach this message out of love. They don't want anyone to suffer the everlasting damnation that we ALL deserve.

Originally posted by Excitable_Boy
Born again Christians, especially, seem to have a "Holier than though" mentality, which can be seen quite regularly right here on this site. And of course, they all feel that they are the only ones good enough to get into heaven, and everyone else is going to hell. Sorry, I don't buy that egocentricity.

Sorry, but I don't buy yours!

LMAO the hypocritically irony of this thread just cracks me up.

Though I've met enough "Born Again" evangelical type Christians to understand some anoyance with alot of them, I find the egocentricity of athiests and agnostics believing Christians in particular, over any other religion, are so wrong and belittling them or constantly trying to find new ways to attack them for their beliefs- beyond reasonable comprehension!

I find you excitable boy, an obvious member of the Anti-Christian cult, as hypocritical and misinformed and brainwashed as any Christian could be.

Many of such, as with many of the atheist cult, often seem to tout they are so much more logical, and intelligent and reasonable than Christians, but really they are as misguided as those they accuse of being misguided. Time will tell who is right and who is wrong...why fight about it?

People if you are saved by grace through Jesus Christ do not contend with others with a contentious spirit-love them, value them, accept them...whatever they believe or do not believe...anything else is not Christ-like. Have fun and friendly conversations and realize in some we respect everyone is a hyppocrit, no one is perfect etc.

Do you think you can make them to see truth, strong arm them in belieiving in grace? No, you can only love them and hope the best for them. Educate them with what you believe, and perhaps pursuedeth them with sincerety and gentle true enticement to seek truth for themselves-but do it with a hope they will come to truth for themselves not that they will simple believe you about anything and understanding you represent yourself and your beliefs-not Christianity as a whole-for you are not Christ.

Speaking of Christ, He set a great example. He did not go around preaching of hell, He went around teaching of love. Take His example to heart. Love thy neighbor.

People if you do not believe in Christ, or Christianity, then do not be offended by it-else me thinks thou dost protest too much! If you do not believe in heaven or hell or shades of gray in between, fine! By why bash others for their beliefs or assume one Christian represents all Christianity or even a denomination?

and please do not use that tired old excuse that you "would, if all Christians would stop preaching to me about being saved and hell.. blah blah blah!"

...if they are so bad-why stoop to their level then and be equally as ignorant and annoying with your equally annoying stereotypical beliefs and tired old attacks like this thread?

You know? Be civil. Accept others. Love one another. It's ok to disagree, but don't seek offense. Don't look for offense at every turn with everyone who does not believe as you do-whatever that belief may be-Christian, non-Christian, athiest or anyone. It's all just so old.

I personally hate being told I am not a Christian because my beliefs may be non-traditional at times, or even too traditional at other times! Geez! Tell me you disagree or see things different but you can't judge me that I am not a Christian, or excitable boy, don't judge that I think I am holier than thou or anyone just because I am , you know? (Am a Christian that is...born again that is...not saying I am hoilier than thou )

[edit on 19-5-2006 by think2much]

[edit on 19-5-2006 by think2much]

By the way..since you dont seem to get the point about fear.. Please give me the name of your god ..by name??

Easy one....God.

I find you excitable boy, an obvious member of the Anti-Christian cult, as hypocritical and misinformed and brainwashed as any Christian could be.

Many of such, as with many of the atheist cult, often seem to tout they are so much more logical, and intelligent and reasonable than Christians, but really they are as misguided as those they accuse of being misguided. Time will tell who is right and who is wrong...why fight about it?

Anti-Christian cult? Really? I believe in God and am a member of no church or group. I have my faith and have serenity in that. Am I a cult of one? Did I brainwash myself?

Atheist cult? Can I be an atheist if I believe in God? Is an atheist someone that doesn't accept Jesus as his savior in your philosophy? Are all Jews, Muslims, Buddhists, etc....atheists in your world?

a·the·ist
n.
One who disbelieves or denies the existence of God or gods.

Many so-called "Pagans" believe or believed in many gods. According to Webster's, they are not atheists. Very interesting! Also Jesus and Atheism have nothing to do with each other!

I'm misguided? How so?

For the fear of the Lord is the begining of wisdom.

Notice that it does not say...the fear of the Lord is wisdom...but the begining of wisdom.


Now contrast this with the man made doctrine...by the Gnostics...wise men or wizards...man made doctrine so popular today you see it on the back of vehicles.

"No Fear"

No Fear...no wisdom. It is simple.

It also implys a different god. Not God. It is clear...simple. No degree or rocket certificate needed.

Thanks,
Orangetom