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Christians claim privilege over others

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posted on May, 13 2006 @ 02:34 PM
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Originally posted by orangetom1999
Panzeroth,

What is the title/topic on this thread???

Zooooooooooooommmmmmm!!!!!

Thanks,
Orangetom


It's another Christians VS Atheists thread that is going nowhere as usual.




posted on May, 13 2006 @ 04:26 PM
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My question to you is, if you don't believe in the Bible, what difference does it make what Christians believe?


It makes no difference at all. I just don't like the fact that they think they have privilege over others as the name of the thread suggests! This guy Tommy is a perfect example and the more he writes, the more he proves himself to be a perfect zombie for the Christian Cult!!

Christians, born again or otherwise, can believe whatever they want...just don't tell me I'm wrong and I'm going to hell because of it. You haven't done that...but Tommy sure feels the need to save the world by converting them all to Christian Zombies like himself. He should work on himself and stop concerning himself with others! A shrink might be helpful!



posted on May, 13 2006 @ 08:01 PM
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you really do need a makeover.....

Im not trying to convert you ...which clearly gives the example of the very thing you claim Christians are doing...claiming privelege.

What I am not doing is giving you a free pass to play through with this stuff you post and this gives offense to you and other unbelievers.

It is quite clear that the statements of the "offense of the Gospel " is true ..just by your postings. YOu are very easy to put on a string...just by disageeing with you you go ballistic. Others too. Very easy.

I have news for you excitable boy...Christians cannot convert you ...in this you flatter yourself. If you should be converted down the road ...it will be by God Himself..not me. Conversion is way above my ablility. This alone is textbook of the very thing you claim for Christians. Privelege/ Ego...Executive status.

While you are painting Christians with your broad coarse brush based on reason and logic of men..I would suggest you find out what a salty
Christian is. The salt of the earth not the sugar. This concept seems to have escaped yours and others reason and logic in favor of your biases. Science will not be of any help to you and others here. Nada!!!

Speaking of reason and logic....Once again ..who were the Pagans of history killing ..even unto today??? I dont think I got a answer to my question ...even there..much less on athiest nations/governments.

Now I will admit I use a much different approach than does Dark Elf. Dark Elf is much more refined than am I in my postings. Just remember...that if you choose to post as shallow as you and others do ..that there are salty Christians who can do so too...and this gives easy offense to you and others. You are easily put on the string by your passions. This is obvious by yours and others postings.
As I have stated ..there are Christians out here who are not very bright about many things including Christianity...but not all of us.

Thanks for your posts,
Orangetom



posted on May, 13 2006 @ 08:32 PM
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Once again...re reading your post.

I never in any of my posts told you that you are going to hell or damnation..never. That is you putting yourself on a string to prove your points..ego...privelege.

The facts are ..even to Christians.. that no Christian has the power or authority to save you or condem you to hell or get you saved ..send you to heaven..not possible.
You dont lose any sleep when a so called Christian tells you such. They are kidding themselves. THey should be smarter than this and so should you. Among people like me , Salty, who detect this kind of insecurity ..this makes you very easy to put on the string...this knowlege combined with the obvious level of your passions.
A properly schooled Christian does not give into thier passions. You will however find this teaching in real Occult books..not the Barnes and Noble rubbish. Give into your passions.!! Cultivate your passions. This is reflected in the 1960s and 1970s sayings of " if it feels good do it!!" It continues today ..through public education and merchandizing.

You need to be aware of this if you are going to defend your position..for there are people out here ..Christian and Occult practicioners who can see this like pages in a book.

Just some food for thought,
Thanks,
Orangetom



posted on May, 13 2006 @ 08:37 PM
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I really havent seen you contribute anything much to this thread to make it go anywhere outside of the things of the flesh.

Since this is a written forum...it would be useful if you could contribute something of mental substance other than cliches or one liners. Otherwise you tend to be mostly a spectator.

YOu see..Panzeroth ...things of the flesh ...I can get on television or DVDs...down at the local watering hole...which I dont frequent...or even in public education.

How about it Panzeroth..food for the brain and soul??

Thanks,
Orangetom



posted on May, 13 2006 @ 08:50 PM
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ON page 1 of this thread..Al Davidson..makes a good point about the tyranny of the Majority.

Al is quite correct here. THe tyranny of the majority is a feature of democracys. This nation is to be a republic...not a democracy. "An to the Republic for which it stands"

THere is a olde story about a veteran who upon returning from WW1 picks up a newspaper and reads that he was fighting in Europe for Democracy. He states ..that at that very point he realized that thieves had stolen his country.

Al has a excellent point.

There are very excellent historical points to the argument for seperation of church and state for which we are not going to be taught but one version in public schools...the whole story is noto told to us.

Nevertheless Al's point about democracy and the Republic/tyranny of the majority.. is a good one.

Thanks,
Orangetom



posted on May, 13 2006 @ 09:00 PM
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Originally posted by orangetom1999
I really havent seen you contribute anything much to this thread to make it go anywhere outside of the things of the flesh.

Since this is a written forum...it would be useful if you could contribute something of mental substance other than cliches or one liners. Otherwise you tend to be mostly a spectator.

YOu see..Panzeroth ...things of the flesh ...I can get on television or DVDs...down at the local watering hole...which I dont frequent...or even in public education.

How about it Panzeroth..food for the brain and soul??

Thanks,
Orangetom


A post doesnt have to be long or refer to historical events to prove a point. My point being, you may argue as long as you want but in the end the Atheist will still think you're wrong and vice verca. Have you ever thought about why your are doing this? You mentioned yourself that only God can turn someone. Do you intend to "help them along the" way by reaching out to these people or is it only for personal satisfaction by seeing how "wrong" everybody else are?
If not, the difference between me and you is that you deny the fact that you feel at least a bit better about "them" being wrong, or let me rephrase, you being right, because you know the truth. I do, and I'm not being a political correct dork about it. I deny God's word with my conscience clean. And it doesn't feel bad at all.



posted on May, 13 2006 @ 11:30 PM
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Thanks, orangetom! I was very careful not to mention Democracy in my post - I wanted to be accurate so, I made sure I used "Republic".

Many have said similar things and made the same basic point as this but, here it is in my words and from my point of view: You can't really say "Christians do this or Christians say that..." with any real meaning because Christians are people and there are just all kinds of people who claim to be Christian. There are many Christian sects that disagree on some very fundamental issues.

I've witnessed "virtual slugfests" on ATS between Baptists (of one variety or another) and Catholics with both coming very near to damning the other to their version of Hell for the heresies they believe.

I know the kind of folks that Excitable Boy is worked up about - they piss me off just as much. I just can't characterize all Christians or even the majority as "those types". And, it's really "those types" to which I was referring when I invoked Toqueville. Sadly, as my Mom used to say, the emptier the head, the louder the voice.

As I say frequently, you'll meet a lot of a$$holes in this world - the goal is not become one of them.



posted on May, 14 2006 @ 09:46 AM
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Thanks very much for the substance. Much better.

I am not into "Politically Correct" Politically correct is merely a coercion to get people on the bandwagon. Im not intrested.
Politically correct is similar to the use or misuse of polling data. Mostly to get people on the treadmill by inferring they are on the out if they dont match these polling numbers..herd mentality.

Yes..I've thought about why I'm doing this. Definitely. I usually just let it go. When one engages unbelievers...one does not do so in ones own strength. Many Christians do not seem to know that there are unbelievers better grounded in the Word than are they. They can be well grounded in the traditions of men also..better than most Christians.

Two reasons I do this when I decide not to let it go. One to show unknowlegable believers that there is a way that is Salty...not sugary. The other reason is to show unbelievers the same. The salt of the earth.
Most unbelievers tend to assume..or take for granted that Christians are meek mild..sugary sweet type people. They are basically correct in this..and these Christians are very easy to get over on or Tag Team.
One does not do this in ones own strength. It requires a better mantle. It must be done in a Surety. What one learns in this type of thing is that ones personal satisfaction means nothing. This is why one does not do this in ones own strength.

As to historical context or historical events. I tend to use this as I like history and history if taught correctly will tie alot of loose ends together. Something our public education system seems not wont to do for many of us.

Thank you for your substance this go around..much better than your previous posts,

Orangetom



posted on May, 14 2006 @ 10:21 AM
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Thanks for another good post.

Yes I am familiar with the long standing rift between Baptists and Rome. I myself have disagreements with Rome and also many of the Baptists.

I dont like to engage in what you call slugfests ..I dont care to let it go that far as it becomes circus like ..sort of like...in think it is called WWF wrestling. Anyway ..lowest common denominator. Once again ..if I need Jerry Springer/Oprah/Maury I watch television.

There are rifts among many of the religions in this world ..mostly unknown by outsiders.

#e muslims, obvious by recent events, Have a longstanding rift with the Sunni muslims.

There is a rift or disagreement going way back between Orthadox and Karaite Jews.

And there is a long standing rift or disagreement between sects or casts of Hindus.
Sort of a class position. Obviously there is a long standing disagreement or rift between Hindus and Muslims.

Most of us in the west have little reason to know this information or line of thinking.

OH...I am not familiar with the writings of Alexis de Tocqueville and have bookmarked some sites on him for further reading. Thank you for this introduction.
It says in what material I was able to briefly skim over that he was not in favor of individualism. This is going to be intresting reading as I tend to admire individualism..of the right sort. Most of the inventions which have made our lives better and more comfortable..or more productive have come from people or peoples not given to herd mentality. Indivudual independent thinking...not so much group think or herd mentality.
This is going to be intresting reading..once again thanks for the introduction. Gotta shove off now ..things to do today. Take care.

Thanks,
Orangetom



posted on May, 14 2006 @ 10:22 AM
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The facts are ..even to Christians.. that no Christian has the power or authority to save you


I don't need to be saved. This is where your egocentrism is running wild.



What I am not doing is giving you a free pass to play through with this stuff you post


Ha? This is an open forum. What free pass are you talking about?



Christians cannot convert you ...in this you flatter yourself.


Again...ha? I don't want to be converted...therefore, I won't be. What is there to convert? I have God in my life...what else do I need?



If you should be converted down the road ...it will be by God Himself..not me.


Why would God feel a need to convert someone that already has Him in his life? You make no sense at all! But, your holier than thou attitude is amusing...and with it, you flatter yourself Tommy!!



posted on May, 14 2006 @ 10:30 AM
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Is there any way we could discuss this with a little civility?



posted on May, 15 2006 @ 01:38 AM
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The thing thats always gotten me confused about my own religion Christianity, is that it says you dont get into heaven by good deeds alone, then how can you be denied heaven based on what is considered bad deeds? The reason I ask is that I worked with a guy who was devout traditional baptist and he kept telling me I need to stop going out drinking and such. I was so confused and I asked him that very question and he couldnt answer. This goes to show how relgion gets skewed to fit some individuals beliefs. Not unusual for any religion though pretty normal for them all actuall.



posted on May, 15 2006 @ 06:35 AM
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Originally posted by ludaChris
I worked with a guy who was devout traditional baptist and he kept telling me I need to stop going out drinking and such. I was so confused and I asked him that very question and he couldnt answer. This goes to show how relgion gets skewed to fit some individuals beliefs. Not unusual for any religion though pretty normal for them all actuall.


I don't believe in religion. I am a Christian. If those two statements confuse you, you don't understand the difference between religion and spirituality. The former is a manmade attempt to control people. The latter is a daily walk with Jesus. I pray, study my Bible, and try to live my life with love for others. I don't take other people's "spiritual temperature", that is the Holy Spirit's job. I don't judge others, that is God's job. I don't need someone to stand before God for me, that is Jesus's job.

Jesus said keep the commandments, repent of you sins, love God with all your heart and love your neighbor as much as you love yourself.



posted on May, 15 2006 @ 10:03 AM
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That is a good post and question you have posed. Very good and worthy of consideration.

What I know about the topic of your post is that you dont go to heaven or hell based on your works. You go based on whether God has chosen you for His purposes. This leaves the works system out of it completely.
What does happen is that God has done his work in you to change your fleshly heart/soul into His heart/soul and these things of the flesh...ie drinking and other things which use to draw you and so much of your time and moneys ..soon fade to unimportance. God's Word does not say not to drink..it says not to be drunken. If you want to get down to it in practicality there are places in this world and always have been, where it is safer to drink the alcohol than the water...just dont be drunken.
IF God Chooses to save that drunkard lying in the gutter...He will save him for his purposes. IF he doesnt choose that well dressed person going to church...he wont save them. It is that simple. Not by our works...but His Election His choosing.

As I posted earlier in another post ...on another board...if we do the work to get to heaven or hell....what difference does the death of Jesus Christ mean on the cross...nothing..for we are the savior or condemmer...we make the difference..meaning we are our own god. This is the problem with works systems..they are a continuous works treadmill. These works systems are pagan in origins.

We change the things we do if we are believers as a result of a good conscience twords God...the new man takes over...the olde one is not binding on us anymore.
This is called a rebirth. To be reborn. Reborn in His image. We are still in the flesh...and have the temptations of the flesh..but in process of time these temptations fade..away..and become less and less important. This does not make us better than other peoples..but it does make us different. We change our works because we have been reborn in His image....not to get to heaven or not get to hell and damnation.

A knowlegable Christian knows that all of us..including Believers deserve nothing better than hell and damnation. God would be perfectly just and rightious in sending us there. We deserve nothing better for our natural flesh natures. God chooses for His purposes to change us...not for anything we do..or will do but for His reasons. This leaves men totally out of the ending or end results.

Notice in the Bible..Moses was a murderer...King David was a murderer and a adulterer. God punnished these two for their tresspasses...Moses did not enter the promised land..but watched from afar. King David was punnished severely with the loss of several childern..but in the end God did not break faith with these two. They were punnished severely in the flesh. Make no mistake about this. These people sinned...were sinner..as are we.

YOu know luda Chris..you yourself..dont always immediately recognize this change which comes over you ..but the people with which you once associated in the fast high speed lane...usually recognize it before you. Something is different about you ..as you dont go along with what they think is so important in thier lives...you begin to breakaway.

Hope this helps you in explanation.

Thanks for your post and a good and valid question,
Orangetom



posted on May, 15 2006 @ 11:18 AM
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If you'll notice it seems to be the people who all of a sudden got religion who tend to speculate the I'm holier than you,I was brought up as a Christian and I too take offense to those who tell me you must be born again? why I was born a Christian so why would I need to be born again,and as far as church goes the word does not exist in the Old Testemant your home was to be your church and was to be open to others,I think they high charge bible thumpers are trying to fool themselves possibly by having something to hide,I know a few and they have several skeletons in their closet one being a preacher who is a brother in law of mine,be true to yourself because thats the only one your fooling



posted on May, 15 2006 @ 11:26 AM
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Sorry oldtimer, no one is "born a Christian. It is a choice. That's what free will is all about.



posted on May, 15 2006 @ 12:47 PM
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I have to agree with darkelf..I dont like religion in the organized sense..or what is sometimes refered to as nicolaitianism.

Church is actually ..whenever two or more are gathered in His name ..there is He in the midst of them. Not a location..the church is not the building ..the church is the assembly ..the church meets and the church goes home.

As I am given to understand the history ..people met in thier homes ..assembled. They sometimes met in fields..in the open. Preachers were often traveling preachers...or if I recall the term correctly..circuit preachers. IN many locations preachers/pastors were in short supply and traveled a circuit to reach their flocks. I know of a few who still do this today...travel long distances ..hundreds of miles to minister to thier sheep. It takes some real fortitude/commitment to be a circuit preacher.

The first time I heard this meaning of the Gospel by some olde school preachers I knew they were correct. I had heard different versions from others before but not like this. This was some 15 plus years ago. Still ...it took some six or seven years for it to take. I was pretty well stuck in the fast food lane. It took some six or seven years of wiggling and trying to get out of it ..find a corner to run to to escape what I knew to be true. After six or seven years..I just ran out of corners to hide in ...ran out of excuses. There was only one thing for me to do...get under the water.

I post this here not because I am holier than thou..or better than others..no way. Truth be known ..I would be far worse than your or others. ...far worse.

I post this for those who can see hear and understand...beyond the mere flesh. Those who have been blessed with the new man..will understand this immediately beyone thier ego..etc..beyond the flesh. Those who dont...well....!!!
We are to reinforce...strengthen the bretheren..not glorify ourselves..or boast of our selves....of men....but Glory to God...
Thoses of the Spirit will recognize this immediately ...those not or of another spirit ..will not recognize it but speak of the flesh.

Hope this helps you understand and in like manner ludaChris.

Thanks,
Orangetom



posted on May, 15 2006 @ 05:50 PM
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I dont like religion in the organized sense



So, the cult you are a member of isn't organized? It doesn't have a name? Born Again Christianity isn't an organized religion?



Church is actually ..whenever two or more are gathered in His name ..there is He in the midst of them. Not a location..the church is not the building ..the church is the assembly ..the church meets and the church goes home.



The church IS the building. Whenever 2 or more are gathered in His name = Religion. The people meet in the church and the people go home. The church stays. Usually there's an AA meeting downstairs later in the day......



posted on May, 15 2006 @ 06:17 PM
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And for the record it is the organized religion who provide you with bibles.





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