How to defend your self, on a budget.

My home defense consists of 6 small bark-at-anything dogs, a double edged short sword made in Pakistan, a USMC Vietnam era K-BAR and a bad temper.

I would take great joy in hacking to shreads any intruder.

Not much poisonous critters here, only vipers and they're not agressive here. Only large predators are Brown Bears, Wolfs, Wolverines and Lynxes. Non of them are really a danger to a camper.

As for the terrain, souther Finland is mainly Pine Forrests, lakes, occasional marches and fields, dotted with smallish cities and towns and single farms. Western coastal region is flat agricultural lowland. East is denser forrest with less population. North is Lapland with high hills/fjäll partly open taiga and large open marches. So this is definately a wasteland, but a hard region to survive. Main issues are the huge temperature differences (+35C in summer and -45C in winter are the extremes)

For winter survival in these conditions, skiing is a must have skill, it allows you to move 3-4 times faster than walking, if the snow is deeper that 20cm.

As for hunting, we have a pretty large population of Deers and Mooses, rabbits, ducks and some other birds. Lakes usually have quite a lot of Basses, some salmons and Esox lucius (don't know the english name for it)

Originally posted by northwolf
Main issues are the huge temperature differences (+35C in summer and -45C in winter are the extremes)

Daaaamn. That's cold.

Well, Texas is pretty much a wasteland with the occasional dot of civilization. Your three big dots are Houston, Austin, and the Dallas/Fort Worth area. The rest are pretty much glorified gas stations (though I wouldn't actually say that in town).

Potential hazards include:

Texans (especially those that are armed, driving, or in a group).

Weather (tornados, hurricanes, floods, flashfires, lightning crawlers, drought).

Heat Death 50C+ temperatures (seen it personally hit 123 deg F before)

Poisonous critters (All but one of the man-killing poisonous critters in the U.S. live in Texas, most are indigenous to it).

Diseased Critters (malaria, rabies, west nile, lyme, etc...)

Non-Poisonous, Non-Diseased, Man-Hating Feral Critters (killer bees, wild dogs, bears, wild cats, badgers, skunks, fire ants, etc)

Criminal Fugatives (fleeing either Texas, US, or Mexico, major border crossing).

Gangs (Hell's Angels really aren't all that bad, it's all the OTHERS that suck).

Random Accidents (chemical plant explosions, hazardous material spills, space shuttle debris, etc)


It's a rough state...

Has anyone considered suvival attempts in an urban setting? I'm thinking about it, and I'm coming up nil. Urban centers have all the worst things you could ask for- lots of people, not much space, no place to forage.

Looking at it reasonably -I think, at any rate- the only solution I can really think of is an extraction to safer climes. Of course, this would not be easy. Between scavvies, poppers, disease, obstacles, etc. chances are pretty slim you and your supplies would make it out. This is on top of the cost of making a cache (that's the only way you COULD feasibly make it out, because a car or van packed with supplies screams steal me).

Any suggestion for those of us folks who are stuck working in cities?

DE

Lots of gear is a disaster waiting to happen. It's time consuming, difficult to manage, difficult to access, and can make you a target.

I favor knowledge and bare bones material. The environment is a limiting factor, but I live in a moderate place. Food and water are tight but not unmanagably so, climate ranges from 30-110 at the extremes, and rain is very rare.

At bare bones, I'd probably survive at least a while with 1 extra set of layerable clothing, a jacket, fishing line and hooks for traps and fishing, a blanket, a 2qt canteen, saran wrap for solar stills, a magnesium fire striker, a knife, and a tarp. That's assuming that I'm going to be hanging out near a water source trapping for food and able to purify plenty of water by condensation. Maybe 35lbs of gear and it'd fit in the bag I take to school every day.

To lighten up that much I'm sacrificing the water capacity to travel, enough food to weather a rough start at trapping, and hygiene and first aid gear.


If I were going to spare no expense or weight on my paranoia, I'd probably end up with 80 pounds or a bit less, most of that in the form of an initial stock of food and water that could theoretically be abandoned, although having them would make me feel a lot safer in the initial days. I'm probably forgetting a few small items.

Shelter and Climate Protection

• 2 Tarps
  
• light blanket
  
• Twine
  
• Folding Shovel
  
• Durable, Layerable Clothing (2x thermal underwear, 2x sweats, 2x jeans/long sleeve work shirt, 4x socks, 1x jacket, 1x ski cap, 1x hat, boony or similar)

Food and Water Procurement

• Saran Wrap
  
• Iodine water purifier
  
• Fishing line and hooks
  
• Canteen Cup
  
• 6, 1 quart canteens
  
• 1 small tupperware container (for trapping insects)
  
• Magnesium fire striker
  
• 10-20lbs of food to start

Other

• Hygiene Equipment/first aid equipment (toothbrush, baby powder, bandages, disinfectant, scissors)
  
• Rifle and ammunition
  
• Sewing needs and threader (no thread- i'd prefer the fishing line for durability)

Originally posted by DeusEx
Has anyone considered suvival attempts in an urban setting?

Depends, are we still talking breakdown of society or are we talking police state evasion? A person could concievably be homeless, almost totally off the grid, and look like a normal working class person without stealing a penny if he had a lot of charisma, and a knack for bartering. I sure couldn't do it without breaking the law, but that's about my charisma, not the idea itself.


For a breakdown situation, whether epidemic, riot, or other, the city is a nice place to visit but I wouldn't want to live there.

On the bright side, there are tons of raw materials to work with. You're unlikely to be hard up for cloth, combustibles, water containers, or shelter.

On the down side, natural sources of food and water are scarce and because of the higher population density and greater scarcity of resources, you really have to consider strangers to be hostile.


My estimate is that you have to avoid commercial districts to stay clear of the looters and high income areas to stay clear of the authorities and paranoid old people with firearms.

Industrial areas or civic buildings not in operation are preferable. Poor neighborhoods you know your way around and fit into demographically are second-best.

Consider places with standing water that can be purified. Swimming pools, fountains, ponds, etc.
Also consider places with grass.
Grass and water mean bugs and birds, and you can injest all 4 of those items in most cases to stave off slow death.


Your kit has to be tailored to disease prevention, self defense, and making use of standing water and unsanitary animals/bugs.

• A shotgun with bird shot as well as buck or slugs (one for birds, one for people) is important.
  
  
• Fishing line and a knowledge of traps, particularly bird snares, will serve you well.
  
  
• A sealable container and some sugar for trapping bugs will suppliment your food a little.
  
  
• Since your diet is likely to end up being pidgeon, park squirrel, cat, ants, and crickets with a heavy dose of grass and other decorative vegitation, you'll be cooking the hell out of everything. A baking thermometer and a reliable means of starting fires are in order.
  If a virus was the concern, I'd want to know more about the virus- I'd be willing to eat something a bit rotten if the virus couldn't survive long in a dead host- you can sterilize bacteria etc, but I think hoping to damage DNA (virus) by heat is more of a crap shoot.
  
  
• Water purification is probably paramount. The weakness of cities becomes radically obvious every time a pump goes out for a few hours and citizens are ordered to boil their water. Even just one day of this really taxes people, so have good filtration and disinfecting means.
  
  
• Medications and hygiene equipment would be a very good idea:
  -Fever reducer/Pain relievers (Asprin, Ibuprofen, Acetominaphen),
  -Anti-biotics if you can get them: if I were one to see my doctor, I'd talk my way into some penicillin and just save it for its shelf life,
  -I can't say enough good about alcohol and peroxide for personal hygiene. I rarely get a cut, fungus, or other irritation that doesn't get a splash of lysterene or peroxide, and they almost always go away.
  
  
  And that's all without looting or killing people.
  
  Oh killing people reminds me:
  Stay in a safe place. Elevated, preferably uninhabited, no central ventalation, few windows, due concern for flamability based on situation. A library or school building that hasn't been used for relief seems good. An auto shop, industrial facility, parking garage, etc are reasonably decent. I'm basically thinking about not sharing air or line of sight with anyone who may be sick or armed.

Wow...that makes attempting the exfil from an urban area almost seem worth it. To be, the three biggest threats for long-term survival situations are:

1. Avian Flu Epidemic

2. Energy Crisis leading to economic collapse

3. Nuclear War

Well, if you're in an urban center for number three, you're dead or hurt so bad you might as well be. The other two seem a hell of a lot more likely, though. If the country -either of our countries- becomes a third-world coutnry overnight, there's gonna be some serious rioting. No more health care, EI, police...Hey, no one works for free.

So, I'm thinking as well that eating of urban birds, especially with the bird flu about, is a Very Bad Idea. That cuts food supplies down to...well, either squirrels and grass (Oh, scurvy. Where have you been all my life?) or becoming an Eater. This has its own health reprecussions.

Now, most people can't leave the cities, really. Once you're in and the boom drops, you're stuck. Between the gridlock and a few other things, you're so screwed it hurts. What about urban gardening? Aside from the obvious complications, someone's rooftop is better than squirrels and people for the rest of your exceptionally short and unpleasant life.

DE

Originally posted by DeusEx
the three biggest threats for long-term survival situations are:

1. Avian Flu Epidemic

2. Energy Crisis leading to economic collapse

3. Nuclear War

Not so much.

Avian Flu is a Pink Wookiee, a distraction from what the media and/or government would rather you not pay attention to. There've been...what...200 deaths total from Avian flu so far in the years its been around? Good lord. More people die from lightning each year!

Energy crisis? We've been dealing with an energy crisis ever since the 1940's. Sometimes it gets headlines, sometimes it doesn't. The problem has never been the generation of energy, it's been a problem with storage of it (for later use) and cost to generate it. We Americans have been spoiled by low-cost (yes, low cost) energy for so long, we think $3/gal for gas is an abomination, when in actuality, we're still getting it for 1/2 the price of the rest of the world.

Nuclear War? I doubt it. Nuclear incidents perhaps (especially with certain radical extremist religious groups), but to be honest, the power players with a nuclear arsenol know better than to actually use them. They threaten with them all the time, but they haven't been used in war since the 1950's, and are unlikely to ever see a true combat situation again. Especially when there are so many better weapons nowadays that cause far more deaths with far less collateral damage and have a much lower "hatred rate" around the world (such as the Oxygen bomb). Collateral damage has now become a surgical skill, whereby certain exact buildings can be targeted. We might still choose the wrong building, but we do hit the exact building we're aiming at. When the news decries that a (one) nearby civilian building suffered damage after a military target was struck by a missile, you know we've gotten it down to a science.


That said, IMHO, what you should be worried about is:

World War III - This may seem like a contradiction of #3 above, but I honestly don't think WWIII is going to involve much in the way of nuclear exchanges. However, conventional weaponry is more than capable of causing cataclysms in the countries that constitute a battleground. For those of you in Europe, ask your grandparents what WWII was like, especially if they lived in Germany, France, or Britain. And don't get me started on what Russia went through by both their own and enemy hands. Between the growing scarcity of oil, China's immature rise as an inhumane superpower, Religious Extremists declaring Jihad on anything that moves, and a U.S. President doing his damndest to piss both of them off while simultaneously isolating his allies, I believe we are closer to WWIII than we ever were with the Soviet Union. When it's over, a lot of countries are going to change hands, and not all of them will be happy with the change. This is the most likely Situation X to occur.

Natural Disaster(s) - Earth impact by meteor/comet, supervolcano eruption, food chain disruption, extreme shifts in rainfall/temperature/winds, massive earthquake. These have always been possible, but with Global Warming (regardless of whether or not humans have caused or influenced it) we are now seeing, for the first time in recorded history, the first major climatic shift. No one knows exactly what will happen, but they know quite a bit about what to expect, and none of it is pleasant. That at least one of these will happen is certainty. The only reason I rank it 2nd is because there's a chance we'll see WWIII beforehand.

Biological warfare/accident/terrorism/intrusion - Viral and Baterial agents are easily spread, constantly evolving, self-replicating, and occasionally have a habit of killing their hosts faster than equilibrium can be achieved. Add to that the possibility of a virus/bacteria specifically designed to kill off humans being released on purpose or accidentally, and you've got a threat far larger than nuclear war. If one nuke goes off, it will be considered a tragedy. If one vial of Virus X were released in an airport, over half the world's population might die in under 24 hours, and the other half probably not far behind. This is third in rank of likelihood, as even a terrorist has to consider the rammifications of letting the genie out of the bottle. What good is killing off all of your enemy if it also kills off your entire people as well. I think it would take an insane mind completely detached from even a remote concept of humanity even to their fellow religious or racial extremists in order to knowingly and purposely release the next "Black Plague". Accidents, however are always a possibility.

NWO-style takeover - While I personally don't believe in any One-World Government Conspiracy out there, I do believe that any government is capable of suddenly becoming a police state and effectively creating a cage out of its own borders. This is why, as an American, I am extremely (not extremIST) opposed to erecting walls at our border, the rapid removal of privacy and free-speech rights, and the maintenance of camps like Gitmo, all of which are currently happening in my homeland. Fortunately, we have an expiration date on Presidential terms, and most people are so sick of Bush right now that the next president will probably be the Anti-Bush... However, any government, in any country, at any time, is capable of a facist police-state. This is, for the most part, a self-correcting phenomenon, but it might take decades or even centuries to change. However, I'd rate such a sudden change as less likely than the other 3 items in today's world.

(BAH!!! Stupid 6000 limit. To be continued...)

Originally posted by DeusEx
So, I'm thinking as well that eating of urban birds, especially with the bird flu about, is a Very Bad Idea.

I hate it when I see this misconception. You don't get Bird Flu from eating birds. You get it from being around their feces and inhaling their mites and stuff. If you ate an infected chicken, you will not get bird flu.

Originally posted by DeusEx
That cuts food supplies down to...well, either squirrels and grass (Oh, scurvy. Where have you been all my life?) or becoming an Eater. This has its own health reprecussions.

Again, depends on how discreet and prepared you are. If you own an apartment, yeah, yer screwed. Sorry. Make a cache out in the country somewhere and start learning how to hike to it within a day or two, that way you aren't limited to just travelling by car. If you own a home, start a garden in your back yard. Plant some fruit-bearing trees. Hell, if you wanna get real creative, buy a seperated cage, and always have one male and one female rabit on either side, and swap them out as they get too old to breed. Then if the big one hits, you can just let them breed away and eat them once they get big enough. A well-fenced in backyard in a suburban neighborhood is unlikely to be immediately noticeable by wandering gangs who are going to be more intent on robbing stores and people who venture outside their homes.

Originally posted by DeusEx
Now, most people can't leave the cities, really. Once you're in and the boom drops, you're stuck. Between the gridlock and a few other things, you're so screwed it hurts.

Maybe if you're handicapped you're screwed, but if you have the ability to walk, you're never truly "trapped" unless there is, say, a border-long stretch of two 15-foot walls permeated with sensors, sentry towers, guard dogs, etc... Again, national border wall, really really bad idea. Imagine if we suddenly had to flee the U.S. into Mexico... Oops! We can't. Sorry, that's right, everyone wanted to erect that f---ing cage in the name of National Security.

Originally posted by DeusEx
Wow...that makes attempting the exfil from an urban area almost seem worth it.

I think it is certainly worth exfil, even if the place is a war zone. If distance isn't too much of a problem though, find somewhere not far from the city so that you can get out by foot, bike, or similar. Remember what the freeways out of New Orleans looked like? And that was a pretty decent exfil situation comparatively speaking- none of the drivers were dying behind the wheel from illness, shooting, etc and the roads hadn't been damaged.

My top 3 would be pretty similar to yours, except I'm not very concerned about nuclear war, and I'd just generalize disorder for simplicity sake. So I'd say
1. Pandemic
2. Region-specific natural disasters (in my case Earthquakes).
3. Any civil disorder (Immigration riots, economic collapse, and terrorist (or government) attacks on infrastructure are near the top of this sub-list.)

So, I'm thinking as well that eating of urban birds, especially with the bird flu about, is a Very Bad Idea.

For the most part I agree, but being stuck in the city during birdflu will after a while leave you between the devil and the deep blue sea where food is concerned, so once I was near starvation I'd burn the devil to a crisp and hope that made him fit to eat, unless something slightly less disease-ridden was available.

Gardening is an option, but you really couldn't start in sufficient quantity before the disaster struck, unless your land lord really doesn't care what you do to the roof of his building. So you still have to get by for a while while your crops are coming up, and to sustain yourself for long you'll need a fair sized area, and you've got to defend it. Then there are seasons to consider- can you grow year round in your city?

If I lived in an urban area, my first choice really would be to try and walk or bicycle out.
The kit in my home would then be pretty small. Binoculars, assault rifle, as much canteen capactiy as practical, sexy paper anti-sars mask, 1 set of layerable clothes (worn), and any small but expensive gear you'll be needing.

Then have a cache with your heavier but cheaper gear hidden somewhere reasonably safe outside of the city, but hide it with the knowledge you may never see it again, and from time to time go see that its still there. You may want to have a surplus army tent, some tarp, blankets, extra clothing, canned food, etc there. I wouldn't go for very nice gear on any of that- like i said, you're leaving a bunch of stuff out in the boondocks and you may never see it again.

memorize the location very specifically by a means other than GPS or removable terrain features. I recommend triangulation. Shoot azimuths from your cache location to a specific point on two prominent terrain features (ideally one to your left and one to your right). Thas the only place where you can get those two angles together, so to find it again you shoot your azimuths and move accordingly (if both angles are too wide, you have to move farther away, too shallow, move closer, one shallow, one wide, you need to move laterally, etc.)

Good tips, ANtihero and Thelibra. Thanks for the help. My concerns came from walking some twenty-odd miles through an urban hellhole. In Canada, if I can get north, I'm home free. I jsut have to make it through al the other people heading that way, and all the others wanting to take advantage of the situation. While firepower is definitely an issue in which I am at a disadvantage (our gun laws would make you cry. On the inside), it will also mean that the opposition will -hopefully- be on equal footing as I am. Unless they're criminals, in which case they will outgun and probably outgun me.

Bird flu is not my only concern with city birds. The filth and whatnot is an issue. As far as mites and other Bad Things, how am i suppsoed to handle my kilsl without interacting with them?

DE

Originally posted by DeusEx
Bird flu is not my only concern with city birds. The filth and whatnot is an issue. As far as mites and other Bad Things, how am i suppsoed to handle my kilsl without interacting with them?

Use a mesh bag to boil them before preparing them to eat. This should kill any critters lurking in the feathers and make it easier to remove the feathers.

Took a friend of mine to the shooting range up at the gun club to which I belong.

We all shot 30.06s and I also brought my SKS rifle recently purchased.

On the way home I stopped by the local gun shop to replenish the ammo I had fired off in the SKS. I decided then and there to buy the second new SKS Yugoslavian rifle.

I am eating lunch as I type this but soon will be going out in the garage to clean the first two rifles and put a thin coat of that silicone grease I mentioned on them.
Then sort my 30.06 brass for reloading

Finally I will clean the cosmoline preservative off the new SKS rifle and do a inspection.

I am satisfied with the first rifle and will be putting it away. Plans are to acquire 1K rounds for each rifle and store this too. You know those large pickle buckets ..you see at hamburger places..Like 5 gallons of pickles or sometimes you see them in bakerys where the icing comes in them. They have a lid on them with a foam type seal on them to seal them up real good. That is what I plan to use in storing the ammo/cleaning kits. If you are skilled enough you can screw the lids down tight with screws and then put a sealer around the lid..like RTV or silicone caulk from a caulking gun. I got rid of the bayonete on the first SKS..I have little use for this piece of equipment.

Hey..while I am thinking about it ..plans are also to put away several large spools of monofillament fishing line at 20 to 30 lb test. The problem with monofillament is that it is light sensitive..UV rays.. and does not really have such a long shelf life. Same is true for polyester type rope. The monofillament I will pad in dark cloth and then vacum seal in my food saver bags. STore monofillament in dark..away from sunlight till you need it.

What I need to know from the fishermen in here is what kind of fishing line has a much longer shelf life than monofillament??? I am thinking of some kind of standed nylon line but perhapsed some of you are more fluent in knowlege in this line of thinking. Most of my fishing experience is with monofillament . 20 to 30 lbs test strength and long shelf life are the criterion for which I am looking. Any help is appreciated in this.

I thank you Gentlemen in advance for any advice here.

Orangetom

Is your SKS a 10rnd stripperclip model or does it accept AK mags?


Off topic issue:
All survivalists beware, Finland has just won the Eurovision song contest, Hell is about to freeze over!

back here after a while - forgot the thread. My overal strategy is the head for the hills variety - we may have a highly urbanised location here in the UK but there are vast tracts of countryside available - do a google earth on Illkley West Yorkshire and you get some idea of just how vast some of this land can be.

For me I have my bolt hole planned - been going there ever since I was a kid - and probably taught me my climbing skills just getting there (no ropes just kids with no fear!) Its pretty secluded - but close enough for raiding purposes if necessary and there is plenty of local produce.

The lack of weapons in the UK is double edged i should say - it seems our criminal element has little or no problems getting them - and having been trained in their use and a responsible user - I have no chance of owning one - that would be our greatest obstacle. Thinking ahead though with little weapon ownership in the UK - this actually means that the ability to home produce ammunition is virtually nil - unlike the US where home loaders exist greatly - so the odds do level out some - and like many here I'm sure the use of bow and crossbow is something they have all had experience of.

[edit on 20-5-2006 by Silk]

but well done Finland - cracking Eurovision and well deserved

Both of the SKS's are 10 rnd internal magazines..factory issued. I have no plans to change or modify. I consider 10 rounds to be plenty in this particular rifle. I already have other rifles with large capacity. The plan is to avoid such types of contacct if possible and for the time being stow these tools away with ammo and cleaning kits.
I do intend to do one modification to them...remove the bayonet..I have little use for this on a rifle.

Thanks,
Orangetom

wow seems like you guys know your stuff. i have a question should i buy some body armor and a kevlar helmet? cuz those things can save your life

I've read the other posts and everyone seems to know what they're talking about. But they're all generalized. If you really want something to defend your home the best bet is a 12 gauge shotgun (sawed off preferably) and after that is a .40-.45 cal. handgun. A sawn-off is great because it has the knockdown power you want but it can be a bit difficult to handle. Where as a .40-.45 handgun is easy to maneuver yet it will knock your assailant on his ass

I dont plan to buy body armour. Body armour is expensive and heavy. Depending on the weather It can be a real hinderence verses any benifit. Mostly I plan on avoiding contact. Especially if one has to move out of ones location.
Standing pat in ones location is planned for but my next option is to move to another location if necessary. A bicycle ..a good one for the usage I have in mind is the arena in which I am researching next. Nothing fancy here but once again ..dependability and functionality are paramount. I will repaint it the appropriate colour myself.

I dont seem to sound so negative ..but if conditions are bad enough I would consider looting it from national guard sources or bartering with them for body armour. Should conditions get that bad...the national guard would be in dire straights...your local constabulary too so care would be very necessary here.

If you have family to take care of or watch over..how are you going to supply them with armour too. It is heavy and uncomfortable. Something to think about.

Thanks,
Orangetom