How to defend your self, on a budget.

Originally posted by crgintx
Handloading ammo for a particular rifle/gun is the only way you're going to get the best accuracy from that rifle. I load for SKS using 123 grain bullets .310 caliber, 150 grain .308 caliber spitzer bullets and 155 grain cast bullets. Reloder 7, H335, and VV N-130 powders are great powders for this round and can be used in numerous other cartridges with excellent results. I use Lapua Brass and CCI 200 primers. The 150 grain bullets are the way to go for medium and heavy game. My younger brother to a 900 lb elk with his SKS with one of my 150 grain loads. The bull ran about 40 yards and piled up dead. We recovered the bullet on from the far shoulder. The shot on the bull was taken at some where between 130-150 yards distance.

Anyone equipped with a well tuned SKS and handloaded ammo would a dangerous opponent out to 500- 550 yrds with a good scope.

Wow Dude!!!

I was begining to think I was the odd man out..planning on reloading for this caliber when it can be found all over the place ..even though prices are somewhat reflecting a shortage.

Thanks for the data. I am aware that 150 grain bullets are available for this rifle and to me it is the way to go to in using this for a hunting rifle. THe 123 grain spire points look ok but I think for whitetails and above the heavier bullet is more to order for this task. My plans are to set back about 500 rounds of 150 grain spire points/soft points.

Mostly I have loaded 123 grain Sierra bullets for this rifle as they are available at my local supplier. THe powder is IMR 3031 with a standard large rifle primer. I was initially concerned with the ability to cycle the action but my concerns turned out to be unwarranted. Accuray was good out to 100 yards using iron sights at the local gun club. No malfunctions.
I am new to loading for the SKS hence I appreciate your take on the loading data. I will transfer this data in powders types and and primers to my books. They dont always have IMR powders in sufficient stock so I may have to purchase some of the ones you mentioned. I have mostly reloaded alot of .38 and .357 pistol ammo along with .45ACP and .30 Carbine. IN rifles I load for 30.06, 7.7mm Japanese and of course .223.

I am not into cast bullets in rifles as of yet..but it is also a option worth considering.


I do load cast bullets in .38/357 and .45 ACP. This is mostly what I shoot for target practcing...in light loads.

Hey.....Just rereading your post..YOu load .308 diameter bullets for this rifle in the heavier bullets?? No problems with accuracy.. .308 vs .310/.311??

I have actually enjoyed this little rifle for as inexpensive as it is. THe Scope is an attempt to inprove accuracy of course but the mount system also allows the use of the iron sights.

Thanks for your post crgintx,
Orangetom

I can get 2"-3" 5-shot groups at 100 yards with my 150 grain Speer bullets #2022 from my SKS paratrooper model which is just as good as I can get with iron sights from about any of my milsurp guns. These bullets are relatively inexpensive and work very well in just about every .308 rifle I've owned. Shorter .308 bullets don't work very well accuracy wise in my SKS. True .310 diameter bullets are more common than they were 20 years ago but all seem to be in the 122-124 grain range weight wise. I hope that Wolf ammo will start importing their bullets as separate components. The 154 grain SP bullet is very similar to the Speer bullet #2022 and is a true .310 diameter. Their Silver Bear Match 8M1 'Effect' bullets nearly equal the accuracy of the the discontinued Lapua Match 7.62 x 39mm ammo.

For 7.62x39 you may want to look for Sako and Lapua components, They are the only western companies that have been tinkering with the caliber since '60s.

Allso if you can get a hold of Finnish military surplus ammo for 7.62x39, keep it; they can do sub 2" groups out to 150m

I bought 200 rounds of Lapua Match 7.62x93mm ammo years ago. I was astonished about its performance through my SKS. 1 moa at 100 yards 3-shot groups with most 5-shot groups were under 1.5" at that same distance. After removing the spent primers and cleaning the empty brass, I was astonished by the consistency of brass weight wise. I was sold on Lapua Match brass. Unfortunately the heaviest bullets made by Lapua in .310-311 is only 125 grains in weight. Unfortunate Sako reloading components are very hard in the the US.
That is why I use a 150 grain .308 bullet to reload heavier bullets into my x39mm cases. No one sells a true .310-311 jacketed bullet in heavier than 125 grain that I'm aware of in the US. With plenty of milsurp ammo available here, no one can sell many components for reloading the SKS round.

You might want to look for bullets intended to 7.62x54R (ie the Mosin Nagant/PKM) caliber, i assume they might be useful.

Edit: Lapua makes a 200gr FMJ Boat Tail bullets in .311, that should give you a great punch, but it's not very good for hunting.

[edit on 13-3-2007 by northwolf]

Intresting development here.

I purchased two inexpensive scopes for my SKS and AR 15 rifles to see how they would perform.

With my work schedules lately I have not gotten around to shooting them till today.

I found out something intresting of which I had not anticipated.

I have been accustomed to a scoped bench rest type rifle like the Savage model 12 ...in the photos posted earlier on this thread.. with very nice trigger pulls and this category of bench rest type optics.

It is a big let down to a fixed power scope on a standard type battle rifle.

I had a difficult time getting the scopes figured out and then when I got close I just decided to remove them and go with iron sights. I found in the case of both rifles I can shoot as good a group at 100 yards with iron sights as with these scopes. Its a good thing I went with inexpensive scopes rather than the higher priced ones.

Also with the AR15 type rifle ..this one has the carrying handle on top. Scope mounting is very high verses these newer models without the handles and the picatinny rails low to the barrels.
I dont really like the high up mounts on a scope. This was also the case with the SKS. To me a good scope needs to be close to the barrel in height.

So the overview of the "Lessons Learned" here is pretty much what you alluded to so many posts ago. Use the KISS principle.. "Keep it simple stupid!!!"

Thanks,
Orangetom

Tom, You should checkout this site:


www.surplusrifle.com...

They have some great articles on improving the accuracy of the AK and SKS.

Ag2O^2+S2O^2. This is achieved by burning sulfur candles with a small diameter silver wire inserted near the wick, which you can reuse several times.

Reeks havoc on sensitive electronic equipment. Be sure and not place it too close to yours.

This is achieved by the moisture content in wax undergoing chemical reaction with the silver under the reaction of fire. It produces ions (+/-) which can cause something like a field generator to enter into a wild flux state. Great for those who try and jam out your electronics.

Originally posted by crgintx
Tom, You should checkout this site:


www.surplusrifle.com...

They have some great articles on improving the accuracy of the AK and SKS.

Thanks for the article and site. I have bookmarked it for future use. I am intrested in the article on scope mounts and improving the trigger.

While I like the overall rifle the SKS has a horrible trigger compared to my M1 Garand or 1903 Springfield bolt action. I will read these articles at my leasure.

Thanks again for the site.
Orangetom

My friend from across the river stopped by and gave me a package he bought and wants me to try it out and let me know what I think of it.
It turned out to be a Smith and Wesson 40 caliber automatic pistol.

It seems that my friend was disturbed by that news report of that family out west caught in a snow storm on a back road. The woman and kids stayed with the automobile as they burned whatever they had to keep warm before the husband took off to find help. They were eventually rescued but the husband froze to death going to get help. This was quite a tragedy.

What my friend began to realize ,as he is planning several trips out west ,is that he needs a survival bag to take with him on these trips.
This bag is similar to our BOB bags. I explained to him what I am doing in this arena and he said it was a good idea though his bag is mostly for these trips. The pistol is part of his bag but he wants me to rate it for him when I get a chance to go to the range.

The pistol Is one I have never handled or examined. It is called a Smith and Wesson 40 VR. It is new in the box with two magazines and a laser sight to be attached to the front of the lower part of the pistol in a slot with two allen type bolts. I dont particularlly like laser type sights and I installed this one to dry fire but noticed it does not line up with the line made by the sights. It will probably have to be adjusted or shimmed to alignment.
This pistol has a plastic lower receiver. The upper slide seems to function as the barrel bushing. It does not have a seperate barrel bushing as does a Colt .45 ACP. I have seen a glock and it is very similar, no barrel bushing.

What I did not like about it is that there is a noticable gap between the slide and the lower plastic receiver. To me this does not make for a good survival pistol because it is a place where dirt can accumulate outdoors.
This is not the case with my Colt .45 auto. The slide completely covers the lower receiver or the bottom part of the pistol. No gaps here.

The magazine holds about 13 rounds of 40 caliber ammunition. The pistol is very light compared to my Colt .45ACP.

The trigger assembly seems to have some kind of a hinge on it. This seems to be some kind of safety interlock but differently constructed from the Glocks. The trigger also is plastic. This is a feature I dont like. Another friend came by and I had him disassemble his Glock and I compared the internals of the two. They are similar in design though not exactly alike. The trigger pull on the Glock is noticably lighter than this Smith and Wesson. The internal hammer assemblys are incredibly small. I was astonished by this. I am not accustomed to a double action but this seems to be the rage now days as is the plastic lower receivers of pistols.
I hope to try it out at the range before long.

Status report to come.

Thanks,
Orangetom

I just got back from the gun range at our local club. YOu can shoot 24/7 there. I had the range to myself at this wee hour of the morning.

This pistol shot surprisingly well. I was not expecting this. I began at 5 yards to check general grouping and the manner in which the pistol functioned.
The recoil on this light plastic pistol in .40 caliber was considerable. I dont think this is a caliber to which many women can become accustomed because of the recoil factor. Ammunition for the first go around was Seller and Bellot. All functioned well ..no hangups, jams, or misfires. I fired five rounds of Federal Gold Dot hollow points to check the feeding with this ammo..no problems here. I did not like the way the trigger worked in double action as there was considerable take up required to get the gun to fire. Shots were on to 8.5x11 pieces of copy paper at 5,10,15, and 25 yards. This barrel on the 40VR is about 3 inchs long and I was surprised to see good grouping on the paper at 25 yards. The sights are the three white dot pattern...One on the front sight and two on the rear. They worked well.

Would I purchase this pistol...no I would not. However for what my friend paid for it in my estimation he got a good value for his moneys.

I prefer a heavier weight pistol to counter the recoil factor. Also one with a better trigger. But that is just me. One could get accustomed to this gun with enough practice.

This pistol has been cleaned upon my return and the magazines reloaded.
My friend will get this pistol back this weekend.

Thanks,
Orangetom

[edit on 6-4-2007 by orangetom1999]

Tom, there's a lot of folks who are very disappointed with stopping power of the 9mm parabellum round even with high velocity jacketed hollowpoint bullets. The .40 caliber S&W auto round basically duplicate the ballistics and stopping power of the old .38-40 WCF revolver round that was such a terrific performer 100 years earlier. The .38 is a misnomer, the round was actually a true .40 caliber. As the .45 ACP was to the .45 Colt revolver, the .40 S& W is to the older 38-40 WCF round.

Some LE agency who've been involved in frequent shootouts with heavily armed criminals have switched to the .40 S&W for its superior stopping power. It a step above the 9mm but far more controllable then the .45 ACP.

Yes I quite agree. Having shot several types of 9mm I am not particularly impressed with this caliber though I have seen a handful of pistols which seem to be fairly accurate in 9mm. The Beretta and the Tarus which seems to be a copy of the Beretta are the two I have shot the most . One Glock in 9mm too. The Glock was a compact 9mm and I was surprised also how well this compact Glock could group for a small pistol with a short barrel.
I am myself partial to the .45ACP. However my carry pistol is a heavy Colt Automatic. One does not always realize how heavy the Colt Automatic is until one picks up one of these plastic type autos. I also own a 5 shot target revolver in .45 ACP. This revolver is not as heavy as is Colts Automatic and it has a pretty good recoil The muzzle brake helps alot. As I recall I posted photos of these pistols on page 16 of this thread.
I had at one time considered purchasing a full sized Glock in .45ACP but decided to pass on it.

I Understand about the stoppig power of the 9mm. I deduced by close examination of the ammo before shooting this .40 caliber that it was more potent than the 9mm. The obvious recoil testified to this potency too. Though it has been awhile since I have shot a 9mm the difference in recoil was quite obvious.

As I stated earlier ...I dont care for the long take up in the trigger before the gun will go off but I also understand that this is the rage now days in this type of double action. I dont have this situation with my Colt .45ACP..the trigger action performing quite different. Also in my revolvers...though double action I often practice for accuracy with them in single action and the trigger requiring very little take up before ignition. This can spoil a person on a good, decent trigger action.

Probably the best factory action trigger I have ever used is my Thompson Center Contender. It is a single action which must be cocked befoer firing but it is very very sweet on the action. Once the hammer is cocked there is little to no trigger slack to take up and when the trigger is worked it is a very light, sweet and crisp pull. No overtravel at all. This too can spoil one on a trigger pull.

By the way..I notice more .45 Colt showing up at gun shows and in some of the gun shops. This caliber must be making a comeback from its previous years. I notice in the reloading tables that this caliber can be loaded up somewhat but it shortens the thin case life considerably. I also dont think this is a good idea unless you are using this calber in a modern well made firearm..not an olde or authentic pistol from that era. This too is a big and heavy bullet.

Thanks for your post,
Orangetom

here are some of my sugestions for home defence on a budget.
weapons. break open shotguns or cheap pump action for close quarters.
if you get a pupm shell out another 20 bucks and get a brinkman led flashlight and some clamps tpo put it on your shotgun it can help blind your assaillaint plus it will help you make sure you ain't bearing down on a loved one. pistols for revolvers i would suggest a rossi 44special yes
i know it an uncommon calibur but i had one for years and it worked like a charm. a baseball bat or a machette if you can't get to a firarm or if they are not allowed in your area . i guess you british my need a cricket bat lol just kidding i love you english

Hey dude,
The .44 Special is no joke in the hands of someone who knows how to properly utilize it. While I dont shoot this caliber or the .44 magnum, I have looked at the reloading tables for them. While the .44 special reloading tables utilize various weights of bullets as do so many calbers make no mistake here. This is a large mass of bullet. Even moving at a slow speed of 800 to 900 feet per second...it is a freight train. A .44 Caliber Special with a semi wadcutter lead bullet would be devastating on the receiving end. Handgun Hunters like this caliber in sub magnum loadings for its ability to deliver great energy on target with reasonable or tolerable recoil.

For those who know how to use one the .38 Special it is the same especially the lead semi wadcutters.

Thanks,
Orangetom

For upclose and personal(under 50 yards), it hard to beat cast wadcutter and semi wadcutter bullets fired below 900 fps. Caliber doesn't matter. They're going to do a lot of damage on whatever they hit. Elmer Keith-style cast bullet are also good game bullets. A lightly loaded .500 S&W round loaded with 300-400 grain bullet is going to be a total wild boar stomper under 100 yards. NEF makes Handi-Rifles for both 460 and 500 S&W cartridges and should be far more accurate than similar weight shotgun slugs rounds.

home defence is rem 870 sawed off
and its my side arm, lol
if that runs out then i grab my sks

i keep a winmag 300 for the long range stuff
a 14 shot 22lr for small stuff

Having been disappointed in the scope set up I tried on my SKS rifles, I have been looking for a better iron sight set up. I found this site here and decide to try it as it looks like a way to get a better sight radius by putting the apeture further back than the rear bladed sight from the factory set up.

www.tech-sights.com...

I sent the order off yesterday. Looking foreward to trying this out when I get time to go to the range. It looks intresting.

I ordered the TS 200 adjustable for both windage and elevation.
Status report on this when I get back from the range. If it works out I will order another for my other SKS rifle.

Thanks,
Orangetom

Crazy how people suggest AKs and ARs for a topic that asking for defense on a BUDGET.

Defending yourslef meaning having a shotgun, aim in general direction and pull the trigger. No need 2000 dollars scopes, 200 dollars bipods, 1000 dollars .308 or Lapua bolt-actions.

Just get a Wallmart Rem 870 express 12 ga. with some buckshots and slugs. You dont even need a scope for that, super simple, super basic.

Mine just have a one-point sling on it for handsfree carrying. No need fancy scopes, camo paints, telescoping tactical stocks.

When I see people's so-called survival weapons, I laughed, 'cause most of the time they will pulled out this gun that is basically a fashion macho statement. Night vision scope, mil-spec rails, I mean, unless you are going to attack a village, those things will just slow you down.

A perfect HD/SD weapon is a stripped down, legal, (longer than 18" barrell) shotgun that's NO-NONSENSE BUSINESS ONLY TOOL. Not a dressed-up hooker of a weapon thats all dressed up but got no where to go.

YOu know Docklands,

I have been giving more and more thought to a Mossburg 500 series pump shotgun. I already own a model 37 Ithica police special which is a fine shotgun in 12 gauge. This Ithica was made back before the 3 inch magnum type shells came out and also before the screw in type chokes of today offered such flexibility.
I dont really have much use for a 3 inch magnum shell but if you are in a situation where you must barter and the only thing available is 3 inch...well you get the idea. This type of shotgun will handle the standard 2 and 3/4 shells just fine.

I own an AR rifle because someone I knew needed some cash. For the price I couldnt turn it down. THe AK series I dont have much use for, preferirng the longer sight radius of the SKS series.

Thanks,
Orangetom