How to defend your self, on a budget.

Curious if any of you have done some work here. Any ideas??

Years ago with a woman I was seeing ..she had some jewelry she wanted to not keep so ...open and available ...only available at her discretion.

I purchased for her a false wall socket....complete with face place. It looked like a wall socket and hou could even plug stuff into it do complete the facade.
It was actually a small cup in the back of the socket accessable by pulling the screw out in the wall plate.

The other easy project I did for her was to remove the front kick board down at the vanity underneath her bathroom sink. This made available about 5 to 6 inches of hidden space. I purchased a fireproof box and put it under there for her. The kick plate was reinstalled with magnets to click it into place and hold it there.
This woman was older than me...by some ten plus years. She has since passed on.....rest in Peace. I wonder if her relations even knew about these things. I have not to this day told them. Someone else lives in that home now.

Any Ideas ..Gentlemen??
Thanks,
Orangetom

Well, I have given hidden construction places much thought. Not neccesarily for jewelry and personal possessions, but for say, hiding, refuge, and such. In case of worst case scenario "x". I've thought about definately a place in the mountains (because of where I live), a place with much foliage around it, forest, big acres or something of that sort. I guess somewhat like a fairly small fallout shelter or something? Of course this would cost a whole lot of $$$$ and may be a bit unrealistic. If I could/would do that one day, i'd stock it with such survival supplies that we've listed here already.

(haha, think SOMEWHAT like Terminator 3 the U.S. presidential cabinet and such fallout shelter )

Anyway, that, supply of weapons, beding, survival gear, communications. You know, the basics.

Now, I guess if your talking about hiding things in the house or such, I like your idea of the fake socket in the wall. That sounds useful! Any chance you know where you to obtain one? Under the mattress never works anymore ....Great post as always, Orangetom!

-AITM89

[edit on 19-8-2006 by AllinTheMind89]

PVC pipes alone might hold the vacuum diffusion will bring gasses in in a matter of weeks... PEX pipes have the same problem, they hold liquids fine, but gasses tend to slip in. One might want to try using foam insulated Steel pipes, used in districtheating systems... (i've been doing research on DH systems for the past 3 months )

As for hiding stuff, Army trained us to hide anything from ammo caches to wounded squad members into enemy territory... basic rule is to camoflaque everything carefully and hide your own trails, trail is the easiest way to find "hidden" things in the nature.

One thing to consider is that if you plan to stay "outdoors" and hide, how do you move to and from your "base", you might want to use some kind of diversion routes that allow you to observe if anyone is following you to your basecamp.

As for the caching, i keep all my gear neatly in my appartment and pick it up if i decide to move out... most likely i will, since appartmentbuildings are deathtraps incase of a society breakout (mine is a student housing so it might not be so bad because i'm 99% sure that i'm the only armed guy in it )


Ps. How powerfull is the .30-30 cartridge? is it comparable to 7.62x39?

[edit on 19-8-2006 by northwolf]

yes I am aware of the problem maintaining a vacuum in such a containter. This is why I opted for just dessicant in the PVC tubes. I have worked several systems which operate under a vacuum on shipboard systems. Unless you have a totally and carefully solid system to maintain vacuum and keep out moisture you must have a pump or air ejector system to maintain. Steam distillers are just such a system. Same with certain refrigeration systems.

As to the 30.30 you mentioned. Ballistically in feet per second of travel they are very similar. The main difference being that the 30.30 uses a 150 or 170 grain weight bullet ..in factory loadings verses the 123 grain bullet loaded in the 7.62x39mm cartridge. As I reacall also...the diameter of these bullets differs somewhat also. The 30.30 is a .308 diameter bullet and the 7.62x39 is a .311 diameter. This would be critical to reloaders...
The difference in bullet weights would be important to the average shooter.

Thanks,
Orangetom

So .30-30 would be better and probably more versatile in survival scenario, but considering the fact that it's rare in here, i'd probably be better off with the 7.62x39 since it's in wide military and IPSC use around here.
And you can load it to be a deer knocker if there is a need.

I agree..

I have never had any desire to own a 30.30 when better calibers are available like the 30.06 or the .308...or in your neighborhood the 7.62x54 R.

THe 7.62x39 is suitable for hunting though I would not use the standard military ammunition. Something like spire points would be preferable. Even better for deer or larger game would be the 7.62x54R with 150 grain soft points or heavier. Depending of course on the game and size. Something like Elk would tend twords heaver bullets..180 grains or higher..around 200/220 grains.

Ammunition availability is a key consideration in view of the topic of this thread. This is one reason I never tended twords the 7mm magnums or the .338 lapuas etc etc which seem to take up so much space in the gun magazines. Keep it simple stupid...is sage advice from someone long ago. THe KISS principle is the initials for how this is often refered.

I want a ammunition which is commonly available in my neighborhood. This will undoubtedly vary somewhat where you are located..in Finland.

And of course reloading offeres flexability in whatever ammunition you choose.
This is why I purchased some 500 brass cases and the same in spire point or soft point bullets for 7.62x 39mm. I want that flexability. No question about this caliber being available world wide today. This was not true some 20 years ago around here.

Thanks,
Orangetom

I do agree that i don't see the need for .338 lapua magnum in civilian use, no matter what the ammo availability is. FFS a .338 AP round punches straight through XA-185s both side armours and dugs it self into concrete behind (from 50m) and still goes through BTR-80s armor at 400m... knocks down a man from 1600m... there is just no need for that kind of power in survival/hunting

Ps. The official loads are a bit underestimated for TRG-42

Orangetom - A while back i was looking at a website about creating caches from PVC pipes. They said to seal one end completely with loads of PVC cement or something similiar. Then put in whatever you wanted to cache, and then carefully put in a candle. After that you seal up the other end and the candle will eventually use up all of the oxygen, taking out the moisture in the air.

Also, kind of random, but i went to a mall yesterday and they had 2 concealment things. One of them looked just like a jar of peanut butter, except when you took the lid off, there was a small concealed area. Also, they had an aerosal can that you unscrewed the very bottom and it had a small concealed area. The cool thing about it though was that there was actually real aerosal spray in the can so it would spray just like a normal aerosal can (hope that made sense).

Also, I have been looking at a Mossber 702 .22 plinkster for SD and plinking, has anyone heard either good or bad things about this .22? Thanks a bunch

THanks for your post. I am not familiar with that mosberg model you posted so I cannot render a opinion on it.

As to the PVC tubes. Yes I am aware that it can be done in that manner. Years ago I stored some .22s in the small 50 round boxes a widemouth mason jar. It was about 300 or 400 rounds. I built a small cup out of aluminum foil and placed it on top of the highest box in the mason jar. Filling this cup with a bit of lighter fluid I lit it off then quickly put the mason jar lid and the ring on it . The flame went out after burning off the oxygen and provided a seal. Today I have one of those food saver vacuum rigs which will seal mason jars so this is not needed anymore. I can assure you ...I was a bit jumpy the first time I performed this task.

Now I would be skeptical about doing it in a PVC tube. THe theory is sound..no doubt. THe problem is that the PVC glue and the vapors are very flamable. In my tubes I have firearms, cleaning kits and also ammunition. YOu do not want a vapor trail of Flamable PVC glue buring itself out along the length of your tube...especially around that ammo. Hence my relying on the silicone grease and carefully wrapping too.

Those false containers are a good idea for certain things. I have seen them too. The one I remember was a false aerosol container of shaving cream. As you stated the bottom unscrews. These things are very useful for small items. THanks for reminding me of them.

Northwolf,
Musing on your earlier post..about the 30.30 caliber. It seems to me the 30.30 is somewhat popular in Europe as a sporting cartridge. We often and ignorantly think of this caliber as being so American....cowboys and all that stuff. We here stateside dont often think of it being used in Europe. But it definitely is.
Nonetheless I prefer to stick to military chamberings which have also become popular as sporting ammunition and thus making it much more accepted and availiable from many sources. There is that flexability again.

THanks Gentlemen for your posts,
Orangetom

Orangetom
I've seen very few .30-30 guns here and local shops don't even have ammunition for it. I've concidered a 7.62x39 gun, but i decided that if things get bad, i'll most likely obtain one (Sako rk-95 or 62) from the local garrison as i belong to the first group of reservists to be called in

So i'm currently very facinated about the model 1944 Mosin Nagant carbine. Has anyone used one before? What's the recoil and accuracy?

I'm sort of going towards the Coopers (?) Scout rifle concept...


As for the training, i've been spending the last few days under my car learning to fix it (and fixing it too), it never hurts to know how to keep the wheels runnin' (my car is not the optimal for survival, too much electronics in it, BMW 318i '88)
And i've also been fishing Bass with simple line and rod kit, got about 20 in a day, so no worries in that department


Ps. The .338 rant tells actually more about the armour of the Xa-185 than .338s cababilities

[edit on 21-8-2006 by northwolf]

THe AR 15 Rifle I bought from someone needing cash. I havent shot it as of yet but bought some factory ammo yesterday and also picked up two 30 rnd magazines.

I have my eye on one of those 24 inch barrelled varmit version of the AR 15 in the local store with a Heavy stainless steel varmit barrel. The rifle is about $1050.00.

What the guy at the store told me is that they make conversion kit where you buy the complete upper receiver for them ...heavy free floating barrel and upper receiver. YOU use your same lower receiver..just attaching the new upper.

I am considering going this route as the uppers are about $500.00. This way I can keep my standard barrel if I want to switch back.

Any of you ever heard of this set up..curious if any of you have had experience with this.??

I also found out they make the uppers with heavy free floating blued steel barrels instead of the stainless. I would rather have the heavy free floating blued steel rather than the stainless. Not really partial to stainless steel.

Northwolf...great on your learning about how to repair your car. I have difficulty with these new electronic cars. I can fix many things mechanical but electronics I am not up to speed on this . I will have to learn like yourself.

Thanks,
Orangetom

Most (?) AR uppers are changeable, i've seen Colts with bushmaster uppers etc. you might want to look at getting the heavy upper in 6.8 SPC, since you load your own ammo it shouldn't be a too big problem to load that caliber too and it offers improved terminal ballistics when compared to .223 and you still have your original upper if you need to start using .223s in an emergncy... just a tought..

Most likely I will stick with the .223 caliber as I am sitting on about 3000 once fired brass cases.

I like the concept of a varmit type rifle in this set up as I am not really intrested in the AR 15 rifle for defense.

HOwever...I must tell you ...while I was asking at the local gun shop about the varmit type barrels and upper...I spotted something I really liked..but would have to retool to reload for 7.62x51 caliber...or known in sporting ammunition as the .308 Winchester round.

What they also had was a FN/FAL/LAR type rifle for about $700.00. I have always admired this rifle..before the Brits switched to this bullpup thing they are using today.
This one at the shop has the shorter barrel as it looks like a paratrooper model with the folding stock. It seems to be some kind of heavy duty tubular stock ..not the wire type so prevalent on many rifles of this type.

It is tempting me..Northwolf...tempting.!!!

Anyway I have always admired the looks and lines of this series of rifles but never could afford one for years. Now that I can I am pretty much bought out on such tools. I understand they are being remanufacturered now days..by a new company. Perhapsed this is why the prices seem to be coming down on this type of rifle over what it was at one time.


Thanks,
Orangetom

deus x... a little late but thank you for the gunbrokers site!! the ebay of firearms!

was the DSArms SA58 Para-tactical carbine?
SA58 Para

It's a sweet gun indeed, one of the best available...

Btw if you ever spot a Sako LMG semiauto in .308 win, buy it i'll quarantee that it's the finest semi-auto rifle ever made, sad thing is that only few hundred examples exist...

Yes ..thats it ..exactly...except without the holo sight. I like the longer barrels..the full length ones but thats it. Should fit just right folded up in the rear basket of my moped. LOL LOL LOL.

I notice those holo sights showing up more and more on rifles. I have never handled one. THey must be pretty functional judging by thier popularity on our nations rifles. Was a bit surprised to find out what one costs but I also understand in the military versions they are pretty rugged. They would have to be ...GI proof so to speak. If anyone can test a piece of equipment or run it through its paces for ruggedness in daily usage ..its a boot on the ground.

As previously stated, I have always admired the FN/LAR/FAL series of rifles.
No rush here. This would be more of a rifle to pamper myself ...like my Thompson Contender pistols. For defense my plans still are around my shotgun, SKS rifles. and my Mini 14s.

But surely.. it makes my palms itch and I want to scratch it .

Thanks,
Orangetom

Correct me on something here if you would...

I looked up that SAKO LMG..and I keep coming up with a site called Valmet.

Is Valmet the military production arm of the SAKO company? Curious about this.

I have heard from olde timers at the gun club that SAKO and Valmet products are of higher quality than the former Eastern block tools. I also know that SAKO arms are first rate hunting tools. I am just not sure if Valmet is like the military production line for the SAKO company.

I may be wrong about this ...but seems to me that I have also seen the name Valmet on heavy equipment...forklifts .. portable/mobile cranes etc..

Straighten me out on this if you would??

THanks,
Orangetom

Good thread here, and lots of talk about "defense" meaning blowing the crap out of stuff, but I wanted to add that defending yourself often means communication.

I'd recommend a book called Parable of the Sower for any post-apocalyptic types. It was written by a woman named Octavia Butler who died only recently. In this book, a family tries to survive in post-chaos Los Angeles. What these people end up doing is actually cordoning off their neighborhood and building a wall around their homes. The wall becomes the protective device, complete with razor wire and so forth. So really, the only viable defense they come up with involves ALL neighbors pitching in. Alone or atomized, they would die, regardless of their ammo or guns.

What this means is that human communication, is what you need to learn most. Being sensisitve to a person's body language, intent and disposition will be far more useful than shooting varmints.

In the event of total breakdown for weeks let us say, you will be having life-or-death conversations/encounters on a dialy basis. You must learn therefore, how to communicate well and feed hungry egos. You will be asked to communicate with other humans in a variety of states and in a variety of contexts. Could YOU be the one who has enough charisma and human-comm skill to tie your neighborhood up and put a wall around it?

Also, with all this talk about guns, I forsee a bunch of fathers being shot down like dogs in the street, leaving their families without a leader. Think twice about resolving problems with guns. The OP's suggestion to learn h2h combat it a good one, and I would recommend Aikido for the main reason that it is the single most effective body of knowledge which will enable you to escape conflict. As an akidoka, I probably cannot be made to fight if I do not want to, and I can choose when to escape and when to engage with lethal force. If all you learn is lethal force, you will probably leave your loved ones dead because you got klilled for some stupid reason. If you learn how to talk, calm people down, and use your body language correctly, you'll probably be more successful at keeping your loved ones and companions safe. Just my .02

en.wikipedia.org...

Orangetom
Holosights are good, but they can fail, so never plan your sighting solely on them. I prefer Scopes over holos/red dots, since i like my distance and you really don't need a sight to shoot down man sized targets at below 50m..

WARNING Heavy OT follows


A Very much shortened version:
Valmet was a govermentaly owned metal/machine corporation, formed from factories that produced goods to pay off the War compensations Finland paid to USSR. it was later on chopped up to several smaller comppanies and SAKO took over the small arms sector, Sisu took over truck/apc sector and Valmet concetrated of machinery and tractors.

Sisu then combined it's APC business with Tampella and Valmets aircarft division into Defence comppany Patria. Sako was later bought by Beretta and it has concetrated on Hunting weaponry and Snipers...

Wiki article (not sure on it's accuracy)

[edit on 27-8-2006 by northwolf]

Thanks for the update on the history of the Valmet and Sako companys.

I seem to recall some mobile cranes traveling around this shipyard with Valmet painted along the booms. Lots of different cranes used here from moble to fixed and gantry type cranes.

As to the holo sights I was a bit taken back when I found out what they cost for a good rugged holo sight.

I agree...I would rather have traditional optics than these holo type sights.

I am also aware that there are certain types of optics not available to the general public...at any price. Same with certain types of ammo. Probably a good idea..especially concerning these ammo types.

THanks,
Orangetom