How to defend your self, on a budget.

In this thread I'd like to give some advice to anyone concerned with their safety, be it from burglars, muggers, looters and the government when they finally come for us i'd like to give you a list of options on how to defend your self on a budget (assuming many people on ATS do not have the luxery of much money, like my self).

Home Defense

In home defense scenerio's you need to defend your self in close quarters, generally a shotgun is the golden rule for defending your home, you need little aim and have maximum take down power, I will give options for items you can buy to keep you save.

-Baseball bat, generally are quite cheap and easilly attained, they generally can be found all over the place including thrift stores and Wal-Mart, they run from a dollar to 30 bucks for a suficient one, generally wood ones are the best but a alluminum bat is almost as effective.

-Chinese shotguns, they run very cheap and generally can be found on auction sites like gunbroker, HL-12 is an example of these shotguns, they are generally reproductions of other famous shotguns, they usually run from 150~250, other good shotguns are Mossberg 500's, for 240 you can generally get a pistolgrip + heatshield equipted home defense gun.

-Cheap handguns, generally American made handguns are the

Hi-Point CF-380 .380ACP (MSRP 120)
C-9 (MSRP 140, but can be had for less) 9mm,
JCP .40S&W (MSRP 170 but can be had for 150 or less) and
JHP .45ACP (same as JCP),
Jimenez JA-Nine (150 usually) avoid it as the plaque since it's a junk gun, might look better, but avoid anything that is called Jennings/Bryco/Jimenez, other

options are Makarov pistols, generally the Makarov pistols are in the 200~250 price range, they are generally as reliable as the Hi-Points and very concealable.

Personal Defense, you'd best stick with foreign guns here, like surplus pistols like the Makarov or if you can afford it, a Walther PPK in a respectable caliber, other options are a knife or a tazer, keep in mind that most states in the US requires you to have a Concealed Weapon carry permit and they are generally not cheap and require you to go through classes so personal defense is only legally permitted if you have one or are on your home or business turf, but if that's the case your better off with a shotgun, revolvers are often recommended as well because they afford more reliable operation but are generally more expensive than semi-auto pistols, avoid calibers like .22 (no matter if it's Short, Long Rifle or even .22 Magnum) .380, .38 (.38 Special should suffice though) and avoid calibers that go over the .45 range or 10mm range since the recoil will be unmanagable.

I don't recommend Hi-Points for carrying since they are quite heavy and bulky.

Also, taking martial arts training classes could be quite effective if you are disarmed, they can save your life at any point in your life.

Breakdown of society/War/Looting/NWO take over,

For this I could only recommend one thing, or rather a combination, It would be best to form pockets of resistance/defense, have people equipted with Romanian AK's like the WASR-10 (300~400 dollars) GP Hi-Cap model, SAR-1/2/3 (350~500) for medium distance engagements, have people defending your 'base' (E.G. home) have Shotguns as mentioned in the home defense portion of this post and have backup pistols with sufficient take down power like a .40cal or .45cal, I can also recommend 9mm/.40caliber carbines like the Hi-Point 995 (MSRP 200 dollars but is often found for 169 dollars) models and the more expensive PC-9. M44 Mosin Nagants equipted with scopes would be good for long range engagements if necesary but sniper mosin nagants and their scopes can run high in cost.

Other things that should be considdered is food rationing/storing (I.E. store non perrishable foods in containers in a secure location of your 'base') , ammo storage, preferable in a same but accessable location.

Power Generators and other necessity items should be considdered, if your neighborhood is in a budget you might want to discuss where you want a base located (based upon where the most defenable position is), you could even discuss payment plans and chip in for the generators and armaments & ammunition.

Conclusion

even though such things might not ever happen, it's always a good idea to be on the defensive, no matter if it's protecting your self from violent crime a foreign or domestic enemy or desperate looting, your best defense for such events is to be ready in advance, you can't predict the future, you can't predict unforseen events, why would you let your life hang in the ballance just because you didn't want to seem paranoid or because you though it would never happen? did you ever think 9/11 was gonna happen? seriously? did you think Katrina was gonna happen?

Violent crime happens daily, home invasions happen daily but any day there might be a natural disaster, a war or even a government take over or a police state, a terrorist event might happen and the police might come in and say; please stay calm and please give us your weapons, it's for your own protection, blah blah blah.

Whatever you do, NEVER give away your guns to anyone, it's your only insurence for safty besides martial arts, but against an armed foe they wont do a whole lot don't you think?

We are masters of our own destiny, don't let the elitist get you, don't let foreign nations get you (don't think you can trust even our closest allies!).

Another thing you must keep in mind is to not get swayed by these "gun snobs" that will say that you will need to buy a 800 dollar Sig Sauer or a 600 dollar glock just because they are trendy and name brands, read reviews on your weapons and see how other users like it, DO NOT assume that they so called experts no it all, ask the people that USE them.

I am sorry if this topic is a little redundant in the weaponry forum or if my conspiracy babble is a little weird or paranoid, I am just here to help people out deciding on how to defend them selves and what to prepare for and what to use in an event you might not be able to forsee.

I also would like to make people realise that thjngs DO happen and WILL happen if we don't stop it from happening, if you give a crook the chance to do something (no matter if they are on the streets or in office) they will do it, another major defense is simply resisting laws that aid the police state and / or NWO take over.

The NWO or New World Order is real, many influentional people have mentioned it before and from what we can gather it's not a good thing, it's a way to enslave humanity and a way to have total control of the populace, Just look at the recent JFK thread and you will realise that the Bush cabal has been pushing for this for decades and have influenced the presidents from the 60's till now.

Please, stay safe.

[edit on 5/10/2006 by GrOuNd_ZeRo]

First I'd like to say I'm not a gun "gear head", so I don't know all the latest models and etc...

Originally posted by GrOuNd_ZeRo
In home defense scenerio's you need to defend your self in close quarters, generally a shotgun is the golden rule for defending your home, you need little aim and have maximum take down power, I will give options for items you can buy to keep you save.

I disagree with the need little aim part. At inside the house ranges your not going to get that large of a shot pattern.

-Baseball bat, generally are quite cheap and easilly attained, they generally can be found all over the place including thrift stores and Wal-Mart, they run from a dollar to 30 bucks for a suficient one, generally wood ones are the best but a alluminum bat is almost as effective.

ONLY if it's the only option for you. You have to get to close to use it, and in a place like a hallway it's useless. (Unless you can ask Mr. Bad Guy to step into the living room so you can bash his skull in)

-Chinese shotguns, they run very cheap and generally can be found on auction sites like gunbroker, HL-12 is an example of these shotguns, they are generally reproductions of other famous shotguns, they usually run from 150~250, other good shotguns are Mossberg 500's, for 240 you can generally get a pistolgrip + heatshield equipted home defense gun.

Not a fan of Chinese shotguns, if that's all you can afford well that's all you can afford. I'd look for something like a pump action deer hunting shotgun with sites, interchangeable barrels are a plus. IMHO stay away from pistol grip stocks, they take an extremely versatile weapon and force it into a single role. Not a good way to save money!

Breakdown of society/War/Looting/NWO take over,
have people equipted with Romanian AK's like the WASR-10 (300~400 dollars) GP Hi-Cap model, SAR-1/2/3 (350~500)

BAD BAD idea IMHO. An AK style, or any of the "ugly" guns could make you a target. The "Good guy's" might claim you have an armory of "automatic assult weapons", and the "Bad Guys" are going to have an eye for your cool looking gun (This also applies to the shotgun). I personally love the Ruger Mini 14/30 in this case, unassuming looking rifles that still have the capability of 30rd mags, It is on the pricey side (lists @ $7-800, I seen them for around $500) but far cheaper than the "real" assult rifles. If you can't swing the cost something like a SKS would make a good substitute. And there many be others that fit the same role.

[edit on 5/10/2006 by Cug]

I don't agree with the original poster in the essence of the advice but then again maybe I have a different perspective. Anyone who takes self protection advice given on the internet with any degree of blind faith is a fool, so I just hope people think things through before going off to buy their shotguns.

I think the first bit of advice is to look up the laws local to your area; it may be illegal for you to own some of your recomended defense aids. Investing in locks and alarms is another obvious first step.

Originally posted by GrOuNd_ZeRo
Breakdown of society/War/Looting/NWO take over,

For this I could only recommend one thing, or rather a combination, It would be best to form pockets of resistance/defense, have people equipted with Romanian AK's like the WASR-10 (300~400 dollars) GP Hi-Cap model, SAR-1/2/3 (350~500) for medium distance engagements, have people defending your 'base' (E.G. home) have Shotguns as mentioned in the home defense portion of this post and have backup pistols with sufficient take down power like a .40cal or .45cal, I can also recommend 9mm/.40caliber carbines like the Hi-Point 995 (MSRP 200 dollars but is often found for 169 dollars) models and the more expensive PC-9. M44 Mosin Nagants equipted with scopes would be good for long range engagements if necesary but sniper mosin nagants and their scopes can run high in cost.

Other things that should be considdered is food rationing/storing (I.E. store non perrishable foods in containers in a secure location of your 'base') , ammo storage, preferable in a same but accessable location.

Power Generators and other necessity items should be considdered, if your neighborhood is in a budget you might want to discuss where you want a base located (based upon where the most defenable position is), you could even discuss payment plans and chip in for the generators and armaments & ammunition.

OK, you are suggesting that people shoot looters. And be prepared to do it with a wide array of firearms covering various ranges - when is shooting someone from 500 yards ever self-defense in civilian life???? There's the next New Orleans and as normal people are looking for food and shelter you are preparing your local defensive fire zone. I thought this kind of talk only happened on Stormfront and in bad 1980s movies.










[edit on 10-5-2006 by planeman]

[edit on 10-5-2006 by planeman]

If I see that I am very relieved to live here in Germany.....
The Russians and Arameans in my neighbourhood are easy to handle..... simply don't look at them. And a normal burglar runs away when he sees that someone is in the house.

The only people with weapons are jewelers and the members of turkish gangs ...
So I live in a very nice neighborhood

I tried to make a helpful thread on helping people on this issue and everyone is just bashing my suggestions.

I do have to say the list is slightly biased since I mentioned weapons I prefer.

AK's are cheaper than mini-14's thus that's the reason I chose them, SKS's do the job quite well too but are limited to lower capacity internal magazines unless you buy a magazine conversion kit of some sort, mini-14's are also of dubious quality since they are not reported to be very acccurate at all and unreliable but that's just what I heard.

Cug, have you had any experience with Chinese shotguns? is there any reason you are not a fan of them? I simply mentioned them because they are the cheapest out there, a single barrel single shot shotgun would be OK but has much longer reload times in case it's needed.

Originally posted by GrOuNd_ZeRo
I do have to say the list is slightly biased since I mentioned weapons I prefer.

Mine too.

AK's are cheaper than mini-14's thus that's the reason I chose them, SKS's do the job quite well too but are limited to lower capacity internal magazines unless you buy a magazine conversion kit of some sort, mini-14's are also of dubious quality since they are not reported to be very acccurate at all and unreliable but that's just what I heard.

Well the price you listed for the AK, went up to $500, and you can get a blued version of the Mini 14 for under $600... Another week or two of saving is a good tradeoff IMHO. As far as accuracy.. Your recommending an AK! They shoot what 3-6 MOA? The Mini 14 is easily in that range or better. (Mine shoots between 1 and 2 MOA (But I did have it glass bedded). As far as reliability, I never had a single problem with mine. I think much of the flak about the Mini 14 comes from two directions. 1) The old timers who are still pissed the army went to the .223. 2)The flack Bill Ruger got for saying that no one should have a mag that holds over 10 rounds (And then refusing to sell them, and the folding stock to the public. LEO only).

Cug, have you had any experience with Chinese shotguns? is there any reason you are not a fan of them? I simply mentioned them because they are the cheapest out there, a single barrel single shot shotgun would be OK but has much longer reload times in case it's needed.

Yep I don't remember the brand I think it started with an N. Just not impressed, again save another week or two and spend $250 for a Mossberg 500 (But I still like the 870 better)

I just bought a mini-14 and it is definitely a good rifle for the "breakdown of law and order" scenario.

I have fired it side by side with an AK47 and it was much more accurate. I bought it used for $489, while my friend spent $350 on his AK.

The mini-14 is extremely easy to breakdown and clean. The way it operates sends all the dirt away from the trigger mechanism, making it a much more reliable weapon than an Ar-15 in prolonged firings without cleaning.

Just my 2 cents.

Chinese shotguns (my experience is limited to Norincos) are just as good as any western ones for home defence.

As for hand guns, if you are going to keep your gun loaded 24/7, get a revolver, it's better and even a snub nose is as accurate modern service semiautos.
If you insist on semiautos go for those guns that are on military service (somwhere in the world, not in USA only) at the moment best quality for your money is in CZ-75B in 9mm Para, or in Tanfoglio P19

Ruger mini-14 good if you don't plan on shooting past 150m, most AKs are as accurate as Mini-14, my personal favourites are Sakos (but they do cost 1000+$) n cheaper range get a Saiga...

For personal defence concider a Mace (you get less trouble than using a knife)

I have heard reports on AKs (even WASR's) shooting very accurately, they are very inaccurate in automatic fire (AK-47's, not WASRs which are semi-auto).

Most myths on the AK being very inaccurate are false, the Chinese copies are dubious however.

I also heard stories about people having had a glock loaded for 10 years and the spring never failed on them during the time it was loaded so don't tell me that it's less reliable than a revolver in that aspect since it's not IMO.

Well there are always FTF and FTE but they don't have a limited shelf life as far as I have read.

For some odd reason I AM getting more attracted to revolvers (ever since I had a dream I had one), I was looking online for one but they are all over the 200 dollar range except for the Nagants...

I myself am a revolver man. I just prefer them over autos..though I also own a couple of autos. A Colt Government .45 and a Ruger Government .22 pistol. Both of them fine auto pistols. THe Ruger .22 Government auto is a very accurate pistol with its heavy barrel and very reliable. I have had no feeding problems with this auto.

However I still prefer wheel guns. It is merely my preference.

However ..once again your premise is of being on a budget. This is precisely how I have selected most of my tools...with budget in mine. Those which have been a bit more pricey...I have taken more time and consideration in the selection. As one poster aptly stated..I saved a bit longer and used more thought in the selection...precisely.
This was the case in the selection of my M1 Garand and my 1903 Springfield. Same with my Colt Government .45 auto.

Nothing wrong with a shotgun..even one of those very inexpensive breakopen..single shots. They are simple and reliable...for the price...my number one prerequisite of such a tool...reliable for the price. After this comes the other requirements...reasonably accurate... how the mechanisms work, auto, pump bolt action..single shot, lever action...etc etc.

I should also tell you I own two Mini 14s...I dont shoot them much anymore ..prefering to shoot for accuracy...in bolt actions and single shots than with autos. I have ..it seems tended to go backwards from the prevailing fads..in high capacity/volume...which is also probably why I tend twords revolvers.

By the way..the Mini 14 is a fine tool...the problem with them is that they tend to be today ...a bit pricey for the moneys spent. I bought mine back when they were in the 3 to 4 hundred dollar range and folding stocks were first available. The poster who said they bedded thier Mini 14...great idea...simple and practical to increase accuracy..well done olde man..well done.

There are many other practical options available to the buyers...the former soviet block weapons flooding the market are among them. Cheap former Soviet block ammo too...plentyful. These former Soviet block weapons are surprisingly reliable ...certain of them...I was surprised by this. Stock up now before another democrat gets in office and the bans begin again...and it will happen. Remember...all these politicians ...both partys are looking out for you ...it is their main purpose..to look out for you. To keep you informed.

If you choose to purchase a weapon as a tool..for whatever purpose ...you can get some good advice and information on what is selected on line...lots of people with know how. It is up to you to be discerning as you can get crap and junk from experts trying to sell to a gullible public...dont be ignorant. Deny ignorance is the motto as I understand it. Do your homework before commiting to a purchase.
If you choose not to purchase ..that too is your choice...up to you .

Ground Zero ..thanks for your posts,
Orangetom

Personal defense on the cheap is a bad philosophy. You don't need to break the bank to buy a decent weapon, but you don't need to buy "junk" guns either. Orangetom1999 gives good advice when he suggests a revolver.

In my humble opinion, there is no better weapon for home defense. Load it and put it in a safe place and it will be there when you need it with minimal maintenance.

Shotguns and rifles can be as unwieldy as baseball bats and semi-auto pistols can be finicky in the moment of truth without proper maintenance.

A good revolver and the time spent learning to use and maintain it properly is a small price to pay for peace of mind and personal safety.

I also heard stories about people having had a glock loaded for 10 years and the spring never failed on them during the time it was loaded so don't tell me that it's less reliable than a revolver in that aspect since it's not IMO.

Never trust your life to hearsay. Magazine springs do need proper maintenance and time to "breathe" in order to extend their usable lives. Too many things can happen to a magazine when left loaded for too long to risk your life on it.

An auto-loading pistol is a fine choice for a defensive weapon, but don't neglect it unless you are willing to die in a very frustrating and embarrassing moment.

First off I'd like to give some props on the reference to Mossberg. My personal favorite among shotguns, it's reliable pump action pistol grip and easily sawed stock and barrel make it a bloody cannon in the event of home-defense.

Secondly, in regards to the poster that said you wouldn't get much spread with a shotgun, I'd like to remind them that a sawed barrel will give you plenty of spread, if less range, and you really don't need much spread when your target is in a small confined area. Even if you just barely pepper someone with a shotgun, the pain alone will take all but the most determined psycho down. If it misses, the intruder will probably run for it.

Now... some advice of my own...


An Ounce of Prevention is worth a Pound of Cure

For your run-of-the-mill robbers, simply having weapons in plain sight is a great deterrant. Cheap swords are ideal for this: they look scary as hell to a robber, and if they try to use it, they're more likely to end up hurting themselves because cheap swords aren't made for fighting. If they steal it, they got away with...a cheap sword. But more than anything, a nice array of swords and other archaic weapons on your walls in plain view sends a very clear message to robbers: "I'm a little bit nuts, I'm well armed, and I'm just dying for an excuse to use these things in real life." In numerous interviews with burglars in prison, all have said the same thing: they aren't worried about the cops, dogs, or home-security systems, as much as they are afraid of an armed homeowner just waiting for an excuse to pop someone. Leaving weapons in plain sight sends that message loud and clear. Now as far as practicality goes, using a sword for true indoor home defense is almost as bad as using a bat (except you can stab with some swords), but since getting robbed is just as likely to happen when you're not home as when you are, it's better to have a very big ugly visible deterrant there, all the time.

Further cheap deterrants include bumper stickers on your car to the effect of being a member of the NRA, and being insured by Smith & Wesson. You think I'm kidding? How many of you are going to take a chance picking a fight with someone who has stickers like that? Yeah. Thought so. My personal favorite was to hang framed used gun-range targets in plain view of each door and window. You don't even have to be a good shot with these, just go to a gun range, rent a gun, and set the target 5 feet away. The results look the same with casual viewing: a badass with crackshot accuracy, and sends the same clear message to burglars. I'm armed, I'm just waiting to pop the first pink-commie nazi that sets foot on my property.

I lived in one of the worst ghettos the Dallas/Fort Worth area had to offer. Every apartment in my entire building got broken into at least once, sometimes multiple times. Except for mine. I did find the lock busted on my door, twice. I came home, the door was ajar, called the police. Nothing had been stolen. There wasn't even evidence they'd set foot inside the apartment. However, directly ahead of the door they'd busted the lock on was a lovingly hung bit of art by yours truly. Nothing says "piss off" like a human-silhouette target with 3 holes in the head and 3 in the bullseye.

...(wow...apparently they limited the number of characters in a post. This is going to be a 2 or 3 parter....wheee)...

What you REALLY need to worry about in the event of _X_:

Fresh Water - You will die in 3 days without water. Water is everything. You use it for drinking, cooking, cleaning, bathing, growing crops, watering livestock. When the plumbing shuts off, you damn well better know where your water is going to come from or you have already surrendered your life to whomever controls it. I personally recommend an absolute minimum of 2 gallons per family member. That should get you through about 3 days, which is normally how long any crisis will last. For longer stretches, use the same formula. 2 gallons per 3 days per person. This is just for drinking, merest survival. Eventually the human body needs more, and you'll want more for cooking and such. If you own land, you may want to consider drilling a well, or planting a very large cistern to catch rainwater and store it for long periods of time. In cases of "standing" or "found" water, you will want to keep a supply of iodine tablets and/or be certain to boil water thoroughly before drinking it, as parasites in the water can make you wish you'd died in the cataclysm and the illnesses that result will further dehydrate your body.

Food - With a steady supply of water you can live 30-60 days without food, though miserably. Just as with water, storing food takes a lot of space. For the short run (a week or so) you can subsist off of starches like oatmeal and crackers and potatoes. these provide the most fuel and energy for their cost in terms of weight and space. For prolongued stretches you will need to ensure a steady supply of Protein, Vitamins, Starches, and Fiber. Limes keep for a very long period of time, pack a lot of Vitamin C (avoid scurvy), and go well with nearly any food or drink. For landowners, depending on your climate, I'd recommend planting some sort of fruit-bearing tree (like an apple tree), and a vegetable garden that focused on quick-growing year-round vegetables (like asparagus).

Shelter - You need a defensable area to keep your water and food protected. Ideally, again, a landowner will come out on top. There's only so much you can fit in an apartment, and apartments become deathtraps during crises because you will inevitably have a high concentration of people with very few resources between them. If you really want to have any chance at all of surviving a long-term crisis, you must get a house. The only other option is to go on the road as a looter or join the occupying forces (if they'll let you). Provided you have land, I would recommend building the occasional spider-hole, each with their own individual cache of food, water, supplies, weapons, etc, to last for 3 days. That way if the tanks come rolling through, you've got a handy place to hole up and hide till they declare your area "clear"...which should take about 3 days or less.

Waste Disposal - You will need a place not only to void yourself, but to throw away trash and such. Again, landowners have the advantage. A compost heap can take care of your non-acidic biodegrables and provide you with nutrient-rich topsoil for your garden. However, the rest of your trash will either need to be burned (giving others a clear signal of where you are), or buried (potentially ruining the water table), or dumped (creating a health-hazard nearby unless you have a way to haul it long distances). The only bright side to a civilization without waste disposal is that if society has broken down that far, it's doubtful you'll be able to easily renew your sources of non-biodegradable trash after the first couple of weeks.

Fight or Flight - Choose your battles. If an occupying force comes rolling down your street with a stream of tanks, only a fool runs out and challenges them head-on. If an occupying force questions you, act respectful, answer their questions, and don't draw any more attention to yourself than possible. Rambo only exists in the movies. If you want to live through an occupation, then around the enemy keep your head down, shut up, and observe. No one defeats an occupying force by taking on the grunts. Keep an eye out for the officers. Make a note of who they are, what they typically wear as a uniform, and when they are least protected. They are your primary targets. If you consistantly take down only the officers, then the grunts will have no leadership amongst them, morale for the occupiers will drop, and no one will want to take charge to fill the gap because they know they'll be next to go home "on their shield" as it were. Thus, for offence against an occupying force, you really can't beat "snipe and move" tactics. [/li]

Communications - Finally, the next most pressing community concern in the event of Catastrophe X is communication. HAM Radios are ideal in that they can be powered with a car-battery if neccesary (or even an hand-crank in some of the benighted field models) and have incredibly good range with a decent number of operators still in existence around the Earth, and require a proximity jammer or extreme atmospheric distortion to disrupt (unlike cell phones which can be shut down with a keystroke, remotely). Alternately CB Radios are useful for a limited radius (perhaps up to 15-30 miles depending on how good of one you have). For more precise and silent communications, there are devices utilizing lasers to transmit messages, but keep in mind that these will show up like a giant red flare on any military spectroscopic equipment if it's in use.


In Summary...

If you're serious about surving X, buy a house in a residential area (less likely to be carpet-bombed). Plant some fruit trees, a garden, a cistern with a pump, and invest in some well-made tools. While it won't guarentee survival, it will offer you the absolute best chance of it, with the most opportunities to thrive.

(edit: formatting)

[edit on 5/11/2006 by thelibra]

Good post ..I just have time to scan through it before shoving off for the day..I will reply when more time is available. You have obviously put some thought to it.
Do you QRZ??? CW...Phone???


Thanks,
Orangetom

You have voted thelibra for the Way Above Top Secret award.

Good run down, sound advice. However, not all of us are so lucky as to have local ranges, or the NRA. Up here, you tackle a guy jacking your stuff, you're about as likely to be charged with assault as he is. So, my contribution is...dogs.

Man's first -and still best- alarm system was a dog. Not one of those little yappy things, a big MFing dog. Shepherds and shepherd mixes I find are the best dogs you can ever invest in. They're smart, big, loud, and when they need to be, vicious. Anyone who's suffered a dog bite knows better to tangle with the big ones. They're legal, they're a HUGE deterrent if they're loud as hell, and dogs don't jam.

Think Shutzhund trained Shepherds or Dobermans.




Most people are smart enough to realize that various kinds of Big Mean Dogs can kill them. Badly. Those who aren't, well, they get badly mangled. Win-win situation.

DE

Originally posted by orangetom1999
Good post ..I just have time to scan through it before shoving off for the day..I will reply when more time is available. You have obviously put some thought to it.
Do you QRZ??? CW...Phone???

Thanks man. Once the wife starts in on her new job, we should have enough extra income that I can implement my own suggestions. Most of them are from my grandfathers (one a Navy Frogman, the other Army Intelligence) who took turns raising me when I was young. Both had a plan and were prepared for anything short of the actual destruction of Earth itself. Then going into a scout troop run by ex-Marines and ex-Army gave me a whole different paranoid view of survival and preparedness.

My wife jokes that I'm waiting for the Revolution, as if I wanted it to happen. In truth, I just don't like being unprepared.

As for your last question, I'm guessing not, I'm afraid I don't know what they mean, but am quite intrigued. Is it any relation to QRZ.COM? (neato website)

Originally posted by DeusEx

You have voted thelibra for the Way Above Top Secret award.

Good run down, sound advice. However, not all of us are so lucky as to have local ranges, or the NRA. Up here, you tackle a guy jacking your stuff, you're about as likely to be charged with assault as he is. So, my contribution is...dogs.

Aw, thanks man. I forgot about those...the awards I mean...And dogs, actually.

Dogs are a great idea, and further can be used to help hunt game if you're in a situation where you need to.

Our dog is, unfortunately, useless, but extremely cute (Australian Shepherd / Korgie mix). So I suppose companionship during the lonely months plying away one's life in the wasteland would also help. But yeah, overall, dogs are good idea all around. Just remember, they're carnivores. Without store-bought food, eventually they'll have to taste blood. They're not quite the same after that.

Originally posted by DeusEx
and dogs don't jam.

I LOVE that quote!

For my 2c. I own a Walther PPK, and a .44 magnum revolver. I've previously had a Mossberg 500a (EXCELLENT shotgun, 8 shot), Colt .45 military issue, .38 S&W revolver, .38 Ruger SP101 snubnose revolver, .22 semiauto and a few others.

The caliber I prefer for stopping power and reliability would have to be the .38 S&W revolver. I have owned two and really like how the respond on the firing range. The Walther PPK is also a fine weapon for a smaller caliber, but I prefer a heavier shot if I ever have to use it in a defensive sense. My grandfather passed away and I inherited the .44 magnum and that thing is a friggin handcannon. It makes the long range rifle people look over at me when it goes off on the pistol range and wonder WTH? I love it, but it has shot through a trucks engine block before - a wall isn't going to stop it and I'd rather have a shot that slows down appreciably through whomever I am shooting than having to worry about it going through them, the next well, and whatever else is behind that.

I am currently looking for a long range rifle and then get some good experience with it and a scope in the near future.

What about extensive range sniper rifles? I have read a few articles about the theory behind using a sighter and computers to calculate for distance, drag, etc. I imagine that becomes cost prohibitive though and outside the range of this budget discussion.

Originally posted by Violent
What about extensive range sniper rifles? I have read a few articles about the theory behind using a sighter and computers to calculate for distance, drag, etc. I imagine that becomes cost prohibitive though and outside the range of this budget discussion.

I never got too much into the fancier models. It's been my experience that the more gadgets you put on a weapon, the heavier and less reliable it gets. Give me something with as few moving parts as possible.

A 30.06 will give you the distance you need and the absolute stopping power to take down nearly any target, but IMO is too big, too noisy, and too messy.

A 22 rifle, on the other hand, will give incredible accuracy for an experienced marksman, and used correctly, will kill or permanently disable any human target. The caliber and power behind a 22 FMJ round will usually allow the bullet to enter the skull, but not exit it, causing it to ricochet off the inside several times. If the head is not available, a throat shot will do nicely. Even if you don't kill the officer, you've just sent them home after a lengthy visit by the corpsman. Further, a bolt-action 22 has very few moving parts, almost never jams, and can be used for hunting small game without blowing it away. It's a good all-purpose gun provided that you need a very low rate of fire and have time on your side to use that one shot effectively.

As for gadgets though... meh... I don't trust 'em, don't want to carry them, or the weight of their power sources. If my shot is going to miss, I'd rather it be because I was a poor shot, not because my equipment failed at the wrong moment.

Sorry, just noticed this point and wanted to clarify...

Originally posted by Violent
I am currently looking for a long range rifle and then get some good experience with it and a scope in the near future.

Skip the scope if you're training for rifle. Your first priority in rifle training is to learn how to compensate for wind, gravity, movement, etc. At first, use stationary targets to get a feel for your weapon. After that, a great training tool is a pond and some half-filled plastic bottles. Let 'em float around and try to shoot the caps off from a distance. You'll know right away if you did it because the cap will vanish but the bottle will still be floating.

Again, for this I recommend the 22, and learn to shoot using the sites, not a scope. Scopes will not only add uneccessary weight but will hamper your learning curve dramatically. After you earn your stripes, as it were, then use a scope for long range stuff, but get the basic motor-skills down first and foremost.