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Warren Jeffs- the Neo-Waco start of civil war?

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posted on May, 12 2006 @ 10:06 PM
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Yes, Mormons have some weird beliefs in the Book of Mormon considering native Americans, however to my knowledge the Book of Mormon is the most edited text in human history, and the kooky things Joseph Smith wrote on Native Americans have been blotted out in most editions (though not the one this Jeffs cultist aparently uses).




posted on May, 13 2006 @ 01:16 AM
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polygamy = a free haven for pedophiles

This is on american soil it shouldn't be allowed, i'm all for the FBI putting that sick freak on it's top ten



posted on May, 13 2006 @ 04:42 PM
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I'm against polygamy as well, but Why not put gays as well in the top ten list then? Plenty of evidence suggests homosexual couples raising children are much more prone to abuse children for example. I find this a gross generalisation, and many innocent people will end up lumped together with this Jeffs individual.



posted on May, 15 2006 @ 10:59 AM
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Concerning your comment on the Book Of Mormon, there have been about 1000 changes made to the text and all changes have been concerning punctuation. Not a single word has been added or omitted. I am under the impression that you have never actually read the book. Most people who try to explain it as some sort of nonsensical gibberish normally fall into that catagory.
Furthermore the text of the book does not pertain to merely American Indians. It is rather a historical document of all of the indigenous people of North and South America. I think it does a much better job of explaining how people got to these continents than the kooky belief of scientists that many years ago ancient cavemen came over from Asia on a magical landbridge and populated the continents. Of course, that may be because no person that believes in Christianity, or religion really for that matter, accepts the scientific explanation concerning the origin of man. That is to say neandrathal man is a myth to the religious as God is a myth to the scientific.
Now if you wanted to learn for yourself what is in that book, there is probably a copy you could check out at your local library. Or you could go on believing whatever gossip you have already heard concerning the book and the religion that is affixed to it.

And in case anyone is interested in what that book says about pologamy:
"Wherefore, my brethren, hear me, and harken to the word of the Lord: For there shall not any man among you have save it be one wife: and concubines he shall have none; For I, the Lord God, delight in the chastity of women. And whoredoms are an abomination before me; thus saith the Lord of Hosts. Wherefore , this people shall keep my commandments, saith the Lord of Hosts, or cursed be that land for their sakes.
For if I will, saith the Lord of Hosts, raise up seed unto me, I will command my people; otherwise they shall harken unto these things." (Jacob 2:27-30)
That is to say pologamy is wrong unless it is commanded of the Lord through a prophet. That is the standing of the LDS church according to holy writ. That is scripture that the FLDS church does not want to accept.



posted on May, 15 2006 @ 11:53 AM
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The mormon religion is whacky and nutty, like all religions. A guy getting divine information from golden plates inside a hat is no more or less loony tunes than a little jewish wood-cutter zombie-god.


This FLDS branch is seperate from the LDS, its a breakaway sect from mormonism. Does that craziness mean that jeffs is a terrorist?

To be clear, where is the list of terrorist organizations that FLDS is on?


stop referring to these people as Mormons. They are not.

They're mormons. The FLDS and LDS are Mormons. The followers of Jo. Smith and Young are Mormons. LDS is the biggest, original, and most central Mormon church. FLDS is a minor, abberant, non-sanctioned Mormon church. Similarly, they are all Christian churches.



posted on May, 15 2006 @ 12:40 PM
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"Whacky and nutty like all religions" You know, that is said quite often; however, no one can ever back it up with factual evidence. They end up taking a jab at the religious just because they can (in the name of almighty Free Speech) and because they really have no regard for the beliefs of others. What a sad, pathetic, and destitute state that person must be it.
And, by the by, the nickname "Mormons" was first adheared to the LDS church and any other sects that may profess a relationship to that church should not be called by that nickname. It is confusing and defaming. Even though the Protastant church broke off of the Catholic church do we still refer to them as Catholics? Or any other nickname one might have for Catholics? No, they broke off of the original organization and became something else. So, in the interest of limiting confusion, which is what this forum should do, let's not call different organizations by the same name. FLDS is not "Mormon". Nor should that name be given to any other church that was started by someone who got ticked off with the way the LDS church was being run.



posted on May, 15 2006 @ 12:53 PM
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It was also stated that the followers of Joseph Smith and Brigham Young are Mormons. Well, with that reasoning we must conclude that the FLDS church does not contain any Mormons. By breaking off of an organized group you are in essence not following the leaders of that group. And if it were Joseph Smith or Brigham Young that stated that pologamy should no longer be practiced after it was introduced to the religion this splinter group still would have formed. Besides, as the practice was taught by Joseph Smith, nobody decided for themselves that they were going to be pologamist. They were asked by the prophet of the time to do so. If any of these people started practicing pologamy without the consent of the prophet, which I guarantee none of them had that consent, they were going contrary to what was taught by the prophet Joseph Smith, and were no longer followers of the religion that he taught, and thereby, by your reasoning, were no longer "Mormons".



posted on May, 15 2006 @ 01:25 PM
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Originally posted by Nakash
I'm against polygamy as well, but Why not put gays as well in the top ten list then? Plenty of evidence suggests homosexual couples raising children are much more prone to abuse children for example. I find this a gross generalisation, and many innocent people will end up lumped together with this Jeffs individual.


That's absolutely /not true/ in regards to same sex couples and abuse. There is no evidence at all to suggest that.

The study listed below determined that 90 percent of pedophiles are men and that 98 percent of these individuals are heterosexual.

Holmes, W.C. and Slap, G.B. (1998). "Sexual Abuse of Boys: Definition, Prevalence, Correlates, Sequelae and Management." Journal of the American Medical Association.


And from the American Psychological Association:


...fears about children of lesbians and gay men being sexually abused by adults, ostracized by peers, or isolated in single-sex lesbian or gay communities are unfounded.



www.apa.org...



posted on May, 15 2006 @ 01:27 PM
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Originally posted by RoadPebble
no one can ever back it up with factual evidence.

Zombie-jews rising out of the grave and offering salvation by eating cookies is pretty much undisputably 'whacky'.



and because they really have no regard for the beliefs of others. What a sad, pathetic, and destitute state that person must be it.

Personal Insult noted. The irony of someone getting their panties in a bunch over their silly little religious views being viewed as silly calling someone else pathetic, also noted.


other sects that may profess a relationship to that church should not be called by that nickname.

Too bad, they're all mormons in anyone's book.


Even though the Protastant church broke off of the Catholic church do we still refer to them as Catholics?

No, because they do not have a catholic dogma or catechism. If they practiced catholic rites and propagated specfically catholic dogma, we'd say 'thems is catholics'. There are catholic churches that are unalligned with Rome and the office of the Papacy, they are still catholic. LDS and FLDS are mormons.


So, in the interest of limiting confusion,

we'll call them all 'mormons', while realizing that LDS and FLDS are distinct entities.


FLDS is not "Mormon".

Do they use the mormon gospels and books? Do they practice or claim to practice the teachings of Smith and Young? Then they're mormons. It doesn't matter if they are in dispute with the LDS, and its especially so since 'mormon' isn't an 'official' title or name of the LDS.


By breaking off of an organized group you are in essence not following the leaders of that group.

So protestants aren't christians???


And if it were Joseph Smith or Brigham Young that stated that pologamy should no longer be practiced after it was introduced to the religion this splinter group still would have formed.

Thats absolutely immpossible to know, that they'd go against Young or Smith over polygamy.

and were no longer followers of the religion that he taught, and thereby, by your reasoning, were no longer "Mormons".

Anyone claiming to be a follower of christ is a christian. REgardless of whether or not we think that they are a good follower. SImilarly, anyone that follows smith is a mormon.

I mean, this is simplistic.
If your holy books are the christian gospels and you beleive in the jesus, you're a christian. They may be catholic, they may be gnostic or any other offshoot. Any christian that beleives that smith got divine revelation and includes his books amoung they holy books, is a mormon. They may be LDS, they may be be FLDs or any other offshoot.

FLDS are mormons, some mormons illegally practice polygamy. The LDS forbids it. I think everyone by now can see that the FLDS and LDS are different organizations that split over an interpretation of their scripture. That hardly gives the LDS the right to the brand 'mormon'.



posted on May, 15 2006 @ 02:44 PM
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My two cents...

As some of you may know, I'm a Mormon, so I'll throw in my take on this situation. Warren Jeffs is a criminal, and I personally hope that he is caught, prosecuted, and punished. I probably want to see him caught even more than you do, because not only is he a criminal to me, he and the FLDS, through their actions, are making some people believe my religion is practicing those same things, when they are not. However, I don't think Jeffs is a terrorist. A criminal and a fugitive, yes, but not a terrorist.

Whether the FLDS can be called 'mormons' is a matter of debate; it depends who you ask. The FLDS and LDS are definitely quite different groups, and pretty much the only things they share now are a common set of scripture and the first few decades of their history. Since polygamy was stopped by the LDS in the late 19th century, the two churches have taken very different paths. I think, as much as it irks me to admit, that you would have to consider FLDS as Mormons, as well, because of that same basic heritage, even though they have gone in different directions with it. Same goes for other groups like the Community of Christ (formerly the RLDS - Reorganized Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints) which is the second biggest Mormon church. (the RLDS split away after Joseph Smith died, because they felt Brigham Young should not lead the church, so even earlier than the FLDS split away)

A few more random comments:


And, by the by, the nickname "Mormons" was first adheared to the LDS church and any other sects that may profess a relationship to that church should not be called by that nickname. It is confusing and defaming.


The term 'Mormon' was first coined by people who hated the LDS church, as a kind of derogatory term, obviously stemming from our belief in the Book of Mormon. Some LDS don't like the term because of that, but the majority don't care what you call them, LDS, Mormon, or whatever, since by the present day the word has lost the insulting meaning it had 150 years ago.


And if it were Joseph Smith or Brigham Young that stated that pologamy should no longer be practiced after it was introduced to the religion this splinter group still would have formed.


As Nygdan said, this is impossible to know for certain, but in my reasonably educated opinion on the subject, I would agree with this assessment.


Zombie-jews rising out of the grave and offering salvation by eating cookies is pretty much undisputably 'whacky'.


Hehe, I have no idea where this came from. I wish I believed in salvation by eating cookies... I'd be saved for sure. And I've never heard anything preached about zombie-jews, and can't even imagine what part of Mormon doctrine this idea came out of.


Yes, Mormons have some weird beliefs in the Book of Mormon considering native Americans, however to my knowledge the Book of Mormon is the most edited text in human history, and the kooky things Joseph Smith wrote on Native Americans have been blotted out in most editions (though not the one this Jeffs cultist aparently uses).



Concerning your comment on the Book Of Mormon, there have been about 1000 changes made to the text and all changes have been concerning punctuation. Not a single word has been added or omitted.


The Book of Mormon is substantially the same as it was back in 1830. However (and most Mormons don't actually know this) it has been changed slightly. Most of the changes refer to things like modern punctuation and spelling and grammar. If you have ever read the Book of Mormon, you will know that the phrase "and it came to pass..." occurs about a billion times. Well, it occurred about two billion times in the 1830 edition; they removed all of the redundant ones that didn't really add anything to the content. Also, in the original 1830 edition of the BoM, there were no chapters or verses, and therefore no chapter headings; these were added later, and the chapter headings have been changed a few times, though they are not properly part of the text, as they were not on the golden plates that we believe Smith translated from. There are a few places where the actual text has been altered, aside from the reasons given above, but I am only aware of maybe about 4 or 5 verses where this occurs.



posted on May, 15 2006 @ 05:24 PM
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Here is the official stance of the LDS church:
"There Is No Such Thing as a 'Mormon Fundamentalist' or 'Mormon Sect'
The term 'Mormon' is a nickname commonly applied to members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. There is no such thing as a 'Mormon fundamentalist,' nor are there 'Mormon sects.' A correct term to describe these polygamist groups is 'polygamist sects.' The inclusion of the word 'Mormon' is misleading and inaccurate. "

The churches in question are not splinter groups of the LDS church. They were kicked out of the church because they did not want to follow the program.



posted on May, 15 2006 @ 06:44 PM
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And I've never heard anything preached about zombie-jews, and can't even imagine what part of Mormon doctrine this idea came out of

Zombie-jews! Jesus was a jew, he died, he came out of the grave, ergo, he's a Zombie God, a jewish zombie god, hence, Zombie-Jews!

I am quite smitten with the term.



posted on May, 16 2006 @ 10:12 AM
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It is the misunderstanding of another's beliefs that makes the world so laughable to a person. I suppose that goes for everyone.



posted on May, 22 2006 @ 09:56 PM
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Warren jeffs uses slave labour and lives in a mansion. I know polygamists that do not follow Jeffs they think he is a cult leader and gives them a bad name. I tend to agree with these people since I have known them for years.



posted on May, 24 2006 @ 07:50 PM
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I am a new member, so bear with me.........
To get the real insight of LDS beliefs, one needs to have access to the "Journal Of Discources", a series of journals started and written by J. Smith, and continued on after his death by B. Young.
Essentially, the FLDS/ or polygamist quasi-LDS, follow the teachings and prophecies of the LDS church....UNTIL B. Young recieved a commandment from God retracting the previous commandment on polygamy. This has everything to do with the Statehood of Utah, the Laws of the United States, and recieving protection from the US military
Emma Smith refused to be betrothed to B. young, along with J. Smith's other 28 wives, so she stayed put, vowing to continue preaching the word of God, as J. Smith had originally received (minus the polygamy, which she denied to her death.). Warren Jeff inherited the wives of his father, after the patriarch's death and has married all but two.
Early LDS doctrine said that a man could not attain the celestial kingdom without the company of at least 3 wives.
That said, the US does not allow plural marriage. It is against the law. Utah, Arizona, and other polygamist prone states do not allow polygamy. It is against the law.
My hat is off, to the Mojove County Sheriff, who finally bucked the "good 'ol Mormon boy" system, so pervasive in these smaller isolated communities, and brought charges against W. Jeff.
The LDS church claims to be against polygamy, but in Utah, where it is rampant, the policing powers, ie., sheriffs, prosecutors, and the like, do not aggressively prosecute and imprison them........and the majority of these officials are, indeed, LDS. Off the top of my head, I can only think of 5 men who were ever brought to trial? The LDS church knows who is a polygamist, just as they know who's a homosexual, but unless there's a major spotlight on those individuals, the Church will not excomunicate, disfellowship, or remove them from their church records.
I know this as fact: my father is homosexual and has never been approached with excommunication. My grandfather, a high ranking official in the LDS church, has never been excommunicated for molesting his grand daughters. I was raised a strict LDS and left the church at 22. Of my other 4 siblings, only one practiced as a member of the LDS church until the last 2 years, when his search of mormon doctorine created questions and misgivings of his faith. He has been asked more than once to excuse himself and his questions from Priesthood meetings.
A war on polygamy is not like the so called "War on Drugs". It will not create revenue and/or jobs. But given the estimated wealth of Mr. Jeff, the goverment could catch a law breaker and pocket a tidy sum from his "criminal enterprise".
The fact that the media continue to refer to him as a "Mormon" is just another way to rib the LDS and groups of similar belief. We have all seen this with the word "Moslem" and the ignorance in the way the media uses it. But, then again, they assume we're all idiots.......... and who doesn't dispise pediphiles?



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