Patrick Kennedy: Drunk?

Originally quoted by flyersfan
Did someone here call McKinney a ghetto slut? I haven't seen that.
If so ... that's inappropriate. If not, then there was no reason
to say that about Kennedy when it wasn't even said about McKinney.

flyersfan, I'm glad you said that was inappropriate to label her as such. In fact, it suprises me that you notice. It's a start. I'm also actually amazed that you even searched for Neil Boortz's comment. Yet, I'm sorry that I have to say that you didn't look hard enough.

Originally quoted by El Senor Pom Pom
While no one really knows to what extent she "STRUCK" the officer...i think that this case simply shows what her true character is like. If you saw the discussion about her on the daily show you too would understand why the security didnt recognize her she had DRAMATICALLY changed her hair style. She went from looking like a PROFESSINAL Congresswoman to looking like a Black Crack Hoe.

Luckily for El Senor Pom Pom, he saw the error of his ways and apologized in a later post.

Well, at least you actually care. I almost think you are turning over a new leaf. After all, you did say that Black people were democrats based on getting "social handouts". I'm further aghast that you actually noticed that people did say any racist remarks at all. But before I fall out of my chair, I've regained my senses before your utterly new sensitive outlook clouds my mind.

originally quoted by flyersfan
Dr. Rice and Colin Powell have bene[sic] referred to as 'house n*****'
by the left.

Is that so? Who said that, pray tell? Or did you glean this from FOX , v-dare or any other right wing, nationalist propaganda you peruse mascarading as sociology?

Originally quoted by flyersfan
I don't care for the Kennedys, however I do hope that he is
able to get the help he needs. Like I said, DC isn't a good
environment for recovering alcoholics and addicts. I'm glad
that he sees he needs help. I hope it's successful.

Oh yes. Poor Patrick Kennedy. Doesn't deserve special treatment. But still just the same you hope that he gets therapy. At least you show pity for him, yes, sensitively and rather kindly. No insults. No derogatory comments. But...I digress. I might as well show rather than tell. I'm sure others can see which side your bread is buttered without any explaination from me.

Originally quoted by flyersfan
I'm absolutely allowed to form my opinion (based on the evidence) that the woman is a loud
mouthed idiot who's pulling the race card to get herself out of trouble.
I'm looking forward the facts coming out in the investigation. [...]
I'm sure she'll be exposed for being the racist that I know her to be.

Really now? How do you know? Is the evidence in your possession? Did you ever ask Ms. McKinney whether she was racist or not face to face? Better yet, how do you really know that she aggressively hit the cop? Is that how you gleaned the behavior by your pre-conceived stereotypes of Black people? Or were you standing right there watching the entire incident go down? Don't be shy. Tell the truth. We're all waiting for you to tell about your encounter with Ms. McKinney. I'm sure she was candid about how she "slugged" that cop. And I bet she really used racial epipthets too when she described the entire thing. Too bad you didn't wish she had therapy.

But before you launch onto that tale to entertain the rest of us with....I just have to put in something else you said referring to Ms. McKinney's Catholicism:

Originally quoted by flyersfan
Oh geeeeeze ... so what??

So what. My point exactly. While I am gratified at your attempts to agree with what I said, I still think you don't get the entire point I was making. It simply doesn't resonate with you that no one on this thread said anything derogatory about Mr. Kennedy. Yet, in the same breath on other threads, some posters find it really easy to call people of color every name in the book. And, you are no exception to the rule. You never did say what "color experience" meant in your post on the Cynthia McKinney thread. But, I think that I get the picture now. It is easy to identify and validate experiences of persons like yourself. But when it comes to a person of color, their side of the story nor their experiences do not mean a darn thing to you.

That is why truthseeka and myself find this thread very ironic in the least. After all, you can explain the actions of others. But for yourself, you are quite unapologetic.











[edit on 7-5-2006 by ceci2006]

[edit on 7-5-2006 by ceci2006]

Originally quoted by truthseeka

Why would I bash Kennedy when a) I know nothing about him and b) I faulted those bashing McKinney for her race. Why would I turn around and do the same thing?

The main point here is that you wouldn't because you have too much respect to do such a thing to other people. There are other posters on this board that lack discretion about what they say--especially when it came to attacking Ms. McKinney on the boards. In fact, it doesn't even register to them that they say these hurtful and hateful things. Yet, in the name of hypocrisy, they turn around and express pity for Mr. Kennedy without even noticing the difference of treatment.

After all, the main point is people really don't see the dichotomy between the two politicians. Some posters can compare the stories for similar content. But when it comes down to race, they instantly turn to denial while they play the "race card" at every drop of the hat. And what is worse, when you try to point out this little fact, they get angry and try to dismiss it all as if never happened.

Take heart. Some people do notice the error of their ways and turn around.

And what's up with the "asking a woman" thing?

I'm a woman. That's what jsobecky means. But, I rather have you express your opinion about the irony of the Kennedy situation. I'd like to hear your take of his "treatment" compared to Ms. McKinney by not only others on the board, but in the press and government as well.

[edit on 7-5-2006 by ceci2006]

Originally quoted by jsobecky
And I apologize for my reactions in other threads; you know what I'm talking about.

jsobecky,

Apology accepted. I do know what you mean. And thank you for your explaination. I brought up this fact to illustrate a point that a lot of people don't realize. I know that the sense of irony is lost on some people, but I find it interesting that immediately everyone felt sorry for Mr. Kennedy and was glad he was going to rehab. But with Ms. McKinney, a lot of posters felt that she "meant" to "strike" the cop and she was unrepentant about it.

I'm just asking how does everyone know this? Is it because of what is stereotypically assumed about her? Is it because she is more vocal and different than other congresspeople that she is a target for this type of behavior? On the floor when she said her apology, there were supporters around her. But, no one noticed that. Everyone jumped on the fact that people shunned her. I also have to laugh when people can immediately assume behavioral characteristics about her just because she dresses differently or because she does things that seem contrary to another's way of life. I just wonder if people would immediately denounce Dr. Rice if she all of a sudden swung and tapped a cop on the chest? I bet they would because she would have shown her true color then, would she?

But I guess, in spite of the tragedies that the Kennedys experienced, people are more apt to pity Patrick Kennedy? Is that the vibe going on here? Or is it the fact that people don't have it in their vocabulary to insult indiscriminately against one of their own in quite a vicious way that they would for someone of another race?

I mean, there are people who spitefully denounce the opposite party. But when a person of color represents that opposite party, is it just fair game to use race as one of those depreciating characteristics?

Prepare to get CLOWNED, jsobecky.

The most courageous member of Congress.

GOP politicizes 9/11 for its gain,

Representative Cynthia McKinney Grills Rumsfeld On Dyncorp Sex Rings, Missing Pentagon Trillions & 9/11 Wargames

McKinney reopens 9/11

So...Ms. McKinney exposing 9/11 is crap, huh? I just make you look stupid in front of everybody on this thread.



Oh, and Ceci, I didn't mean anything agaisnt women with that comment. I meant that jsobecky was indirectly calling me weak for wanting you, a woman, to use racial epithets against Kennedy. But, we see how on point jsobecky is, don't we...

truthseeka,

Yep. My eyes are wide open and watching everything go down. I'm waiting to see how this will be explained away.

Btw, that's okay about the "women" comment. I know you didn't mean it.







[edit on 8-5-2006 by ceci2006]

Originally posted by truthseeka
Prepare to get CLOWNED, jsobecky.

Oh, jeez truthseeka! Please stop! I'm gonna cry. Uncle Uncle Uncle!

Originally posted by ceci2006
But with Ms. McKinney, a lot of posters felt that she "meant" to "strike" the cop and she was unrepentant about it.

I'm just asking how does everyone know this? Is it because of what is stereotypically assumed about her?

Nope, ceci. No stereotypes or anything else assumed here.

Let me ask you, ceci2006, this question. Just you, forget McKinney:

If you were on your way into work, or on your way out of a subway, or something similar, and someone called out to you: "Ma'am Ma'am Ma'am", and then, to further get to your attention (because you didn't respond to their call) touched your shoulder, what would your reaction be: turn around and swing, or turn around to see what was up?

I've never met you personally, but if I had to bet, I don't think you would swing, esp. if you were on your way into work.

That's what I'm trying to get across.

On the floor when she said her apology, there were supporters around her.

ceci, that "apology" was about as sincere as... you know what I mean.

I just wonder if people would immediately denounce Dr. Rice if she all of a sudden swung and tapped a cop on the chest? I bet they would because she would have shown her true color then, would she?

I cannot envision Ms. Rice ever reacting that way. If she did, tho, I would say it was entirely out of character for her.

I mean, there are people who spitefully denounce the opposite party. But when a person of color represents that opposite party, is it just fair game to use race as one of those depreciating characteristics?

Just remember who tossed the first race card down onto the table. No names, but her initials are Cynthia McKinney.

[edit on 9-5-2006 by jsobecky]

[edit on 9-5-2006 by jsobecky]

Originally posted by truthseeka


The most courageous member of Congress.

GOP politicizes 9/11 for its gain,

Representative Cynthia McKinney Grills Rumsfeld On Dyncorp Sex Rings, Missing Pentagon Trillions & 9/11 Wargames

McKinney reopens 9/11

So...Ms. McKinney exposing 9/11 is crap, huh? I just make you look stupid in front of everybody on this thread.

Wow! What great, un-biased sources, truthseeka! Now I believe you.

I meant that jsobecky was indirectly calling me weak for wanting you, a woman, to use racial epithets against Kennedy. But, we see how on point jsobecky is, don't we...

Indirectly? I didn't think is was indirect at all. I must make a mental note to be more specific.

That's precisely what I meant, and that's being kind.

Why would I bash Kennedy when a) I know nothing about him and b) I faulted those bashing McKinney for her race. Why would I turn around and do the same thing?

That's my point. You know nothing about the subject, yet you make statements like:

Meanwhile, no bashing of Kennedy due to his race. What a shame.

Like I said, who's stopping you from doing so? Waiting for backup, are ya?

And, oh yeah, keep using those emoticons. They really help to drive your point home.


[edit on 10-5-2006 by jsobecky]

So much for rush limbaugh being the only rich white republican to get special treatment by the law. I guess you can be rich white and democratic to receive special treatment too.

Originally quoted by jsobecky
If you were on your way into work, or on your way out of a subway, or something similar, and someone called out to you: "Ma'am Ma'am Ma'am", and then, to further get to your attention (because you didn't respond to their call) touched your shoulder, what would your reaction be: turn around and swing, or turn around to see what was up?

I've never met you personally, but if I had to bet, I don't think you would swing, esp. if you were on your way into work.

That's what I'm trying to get across.

No, I wouldn't. It has happened to me many times while strolling on the street. In fact, I will indulge you with a story. One day, I was listening to my ipod and walking down the sidewalk. Being that I was into my music, I simply looked ahead of me. All of a sudden, I got a gentle tap on my shoulder. I slowly turned around. It was a young lady. She told me that I had dropped something out of my pocket. It was a receipt. I took it and thanked her for her kindness.

So, you're right. I would not hit anyone on impulse if they tapped me on the shoulder. But that's just me. I'd whirl around and look at the person. But with a purse on your shoulder and a cell phone in your hand, who's to say that when a woman "whirls around" that her hands (or elbows) are not out and her purse (going with the force of the turn) swings and hits the person who is doing the tapping? The same could be said with a man holding a cell phone in one hand and a brief-case in the other.

On the case of Ms. McKinney, who knows what she might do on impulse? Who knows whether she acted out in retaliation? The fact is, nobody knows. What if she was attacked by someone in the past, and is badly shaken by anyone who grabs her on the arm or on the shoulder? Just that simple touch would cause anyone to twirl around with their hands out, not intentionally striking the person who is doing the tapping on the shoulder.

But with Ms. McKinney, I think, when describing and talking about her story, stereotypes pad the account. It is easy to assume simply because she's an out-spoken woman that she is more prone to assault an officer. And because she simply does speak her mind, it is easy to assume that she is aggressive in nature. And she might not be that way. No one truly knows. But it is quickly assumed that she is crazy and erratic in her behavior. Or that she is simply beligerent and disrespectful of people in general, let alone authority figures.

Is it hard to believe that Ms. McKinney might have made a mistake? Or is it easier to believe that she assaulted the cop just because she simply is "angry", "nutty" and downright "aggressive"? I have never referred to her in these terms. But when reading other posts about her behavior, some posters have quickly attached these terms to her personality.

And my question is whether these stereotypes deal with her because of her views or is it the fact it's a perception how Blacks act in general when dealing with authority figures?









[edit on 11-5-2006 by ceci2006]

Originally quoted by jsobecky
cannot envision Ms. Rice ever reacting that way. If she did, tho, I would say it was entirely out of character for her.

With the poise that Dr. Rice is televised with, it would be hard to see her as acting "entirely out of character". Hence, the dichotomy that I mentioned in my first post on the McKinney thread about the "Good Black, Bad Black" syndrome that comes across. Dr. Rice is supportive of Bush's policies, hence, she is put on a pedistal above all the usual derogatory statements other posters label Ms. McKinney. However, Ms. McKinney is a democrat, liberal and rather outspoken. Therefore, it is easier to label her as being "loud", "ignorant", and "having a bad attitude".

Strip Dr. Rice of all her associations with the Bush people and conservative politics, and she could be prone to the same attacks as Ms. McKinney...if she were pushed by the same "authorities" as the Georgia Congresswoman. This is from Jabari Asim's column in the Washington Post:

McKinney's Hair and Affair
The incident at first made me think of a similar one involving a prominent black woman on the opposite side of the political fence: Condoleezza Rice. In 1990, as a member of the first President Bush's foreign policy team, she clashed with an overzealous Secret Service agent on the tarmac at San Francisco International Airport. While Rice was waiting in a reception line to say goodbye to departing Soviet president Mikhail Gorbachev, the agent ordered her to move off the tarmac and get behind the security blockades. When she refused, the agent blocked and shoved with her both hands.

There are several significant distinctions. One, Rice was wearing the required pin identifying her as a White House official. Two, unlike McKinney, who reportedly hit the Capitol Hill officer with her cell phone, Rice simply got the agent's name and reported him to his superiors. Three, although Rice was the only black member of the presidential delegation, she didn't make a racial issue of it. And she was as ticked off as McKinney was. "I didn't like his attitude," Rice later told a reporter. "He was right in my face in a confrontational way, and that provokes a confrontational attitude from me."

Did I read that right? Dr. Rice is capable of being "provoked" with a"confrontational attitude"? Is that the very same Dr. Rice we revere and love? Could she not be "aggressive" and possess a "bad attitude" too? Or is politics a way to put the blinders on when possible?

Or would we prefer Ruth Marcus' interpretation of what Dr. Rice said during an interview in Essence magazine:

Cynthia McKinney's truths

Most of the time. As she described one contrary incident in a 2002 interview with Essence magazine, "I was looking at the jewelry, and I asked to see the gold earrings. But the salesclerk kept showing me the costume jewelry. So I said, 'No, I really want to see the nicer jewelry.' " When the clerk muttered something rude, Rice said, "I said, 'Let's get one thing clear. If you could afford anything in here, you wouldn't be behind this counter. So I strongly suggest you do your job.' It's something that has probably happened to every black person at some point in time." Lesson: The credit card is mightier than the cellphone, but, as Rice has said, "The fact of the matter is, race matters in America."

So, is that Dr. Rice getting a little indignant with the clerk behind the counter? Is it possible that even she the paragon of perfectness as many posters would agree is capable of being "racially" harrassed? I wonder what they would say now. Does she have a "bad attitude"? Is she "crazy"? Is she capable of doing harm to the store clerk because she raised her voice?

So you see, jsobecky, there are many other things to consider when weighing all of these situations. Mr. Kennedy could have mowed down a cop with his car. Ms. McKinney could have slugged a cop. And Dr. Rice could have been beligerent to a store clerk.

It is easy to say those things because we use our attitudes to judge public figures. But we truly cannot say what was going through their minds. And we cannot be the judge about their character. But we do possess, pre-concieved attitudes culturally, politically and socially about their behavior. Therein lies the difference.

from ceci
What if she was attacked by someone in the past, and is badly shaken by anyone who grabs her on the arm or on the shoulder? Just that simple touch would cause anyone to twirl around with their hands out, not intentionally striking the person who is doing the tapping on the shoulder.

Emphasis added.

I would replace the word I bolded in your post with "conceivably might"

Originally posted by ceci2006

Originally quoted by jsobecky
cannot envision Ms. Rice ever reacting that way. If she did, tho, I would say it was entirely out of character for her.

Strip Dr. Rice of all her associations with the Bush people and conservative politics, and she could be prone to the same attacks as Ms. McKinney...if she were pushed by the same "authorities" as the Georgia Congresswoman.

This makes assumptions about political affiliations. Unfounded, imo. Patrick Kennedy got special treatment also, even tho he is not conservative or a member of the Bush team. Sometimes it is difficult to judge a person's political affiliation solely from their physical appearance.

Regardless, Ms. Rice could stand on her past record as Stanford Provost.

This is from Jabari Asim's column in the Washington Post:

Interesting article; first I had ever heard of it. And very fair of you to point out the diff's between that and the McKinney incident.

Just my personal take on the Rice incident: For an agent to shove Ms. Rice implies to me that he may have sensed a potential threat to her safety that she was unaware of. And, in 1990, she was most likely much less aware of potential threats than she is today.

She deserved an explanation of why he wanted her to move. The agent should have been fired or demoted for shoving her, imo.

Did I read that right? Dr. Rice is capable of being "provoked" with a"confrontational attitude"? Is that the very same Dr. Rice we revere and love? Could she not be "aggressive" and possess a "bad attitude" too?

Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes and not imo.

Or would we prefer Ruth Marcus' interpretation of what Dr. Rice said during an interview in Essence magazine:

The clerk was rude. She cut his/her legs out from underneath him/her with her quick, educated words. And her observations about people of color being exposed to similar treatment and has been echoed by many people here.. And rightfully so.

So, is that Dr. Rice getting a little indignant with the clerk behind the counter? Is it possible that even she the paragon of perfectness as many posters would agree is capable of being "racially" harrassed? I wonder what they would say now. Does she have a "bad attitude"? Is she "crazy"? Is she capable of doing harm to the store clerk because she raised her voice?

Yes. Unfortunately, yes. Not imo. Absolutely not. I doubt it.

But we do possess, pre-concieved attitudes culturally, politically and socially about their behavior. Therein lies the difference.

My entire estimation of Ms. McKinney would have changed if she had handled the aftermath differently. I would even forgive her slugging the cop. had she risen to be the "better person" and de-fused the situation immediately the next day. Instead, a media circus was staged.

Why am I NOT surprised?

Since I can't straight up call YOU a joke, becky, I'll call your RESPONSE a joke. Typical "aww, you have biased sources" weak comeback. Tell me, is CSPAN a biased source? I'm sorry, I thought that was Ms. McKinney I saw asking Rumsfeld about the war games on 9/11. I thought it was publicly known that Cynthia McKinney was calling to re-open the 9/11 case.

But that's right, you live in the neocon Roveian world where they create reality. In this world, it doesn't make sense if you cry foul when someone's race is used against them; you're just mad because they don't use race against another. In this Roveian world, not using ANYONE'S race, regardless of which side they're on, to bash them doesn't compute.

So, you still insist that Cynthia McKinney is not pushing for the truth about the govt and 9/11 to come out? I wouldn't expect anything different in Karl Rove land.