Originally posted by ANOK
You are making the claim that there were no explosions heard and that there was no noise which is just BS, regardless of your background or expertise.

What about the people that survived in WTC 1, stairwell B? They didn't hear any explosions before the builidng collapsed and they were right in the middle of the building. What about them?



[edit on 13-5-2006 by HowardRoark]

Originally posted by Damocles
but, and this is important, in order for a demo charge to cut or blast anything, there simply MUST be a release of energy. this is going to make noise. this isnt like a movie where a single 1lb block of c4 is going to take out a whole building. matter of fact, it actually takes quite a bit of demo to cut through steel or to blow out concrete.

that makes a lot of noise.

So what was your point?

Sounds exactly like you're saying there should have been noise, as if there wasn't....

Having personally witnessed a number of building implosions, I can attest to one thing, the sound of the explosives going off is quite distinctive.

Even a quarter mile away, the explosives are quite distinct. You will feel them as much as hear them as the shock wave hits your chest cavity.

If there were explosives in the WTC, we would not even be having this discussion, because it would have been obvious to everyone in Manhattan that day.

The fact that people like those trapped in stairwell "B" didn't hear explosives go off, is enough for me to discount that theory.

Most of those who report hearing "explosions" have now way of knowing if the collapse had started or not, so there is no way to prove that they were hearing anything other than the sounds of the collapse itself, which had nothing to do with explosives.

Originally posted by HowardRoark
What about the people that survived in WTC 1, stairwell B? They didn't hear any explosions before the builidng collapsed and they were right in the middle of the building. What about them?

Just because they didn't hear explosions it doesn't mean there weren't any.

Did they specifically say they heard no explosives? Or just didn't mention it at all?

Are the people who did hear explosions hearing things, lying? Why would the NYFD lie?

Why would NYFD personnel describe in detail explosions going off one after another?
Shouldn't they know what it was? Did they say it was gas lines or whatever exploding?
No, they said it sounded just like demo charges going off.

I would prefer to believe professional firefighters than a bunch of hysterical, confused, panicked civilians.
As you Howward are the one always dismissing anything that isn't from a professional,
I'm sure you'll agree.

Also with the sound, you are all going by conventional CD, WTC was far from conventional. And actualy you can't always hear them, depends on the building and where their placed. Most building when demoed are empty, not full of furniture, carpets, people, all sound absorbers.

[edit on 14/5/2006 by ANOK]

Originally posted by HowardRoark
Most of those who report hearing "explosions" have now way of knowing if the collapse had started or not, so there is no way to prove that they were hearing anything other than the sounds of the collapse itself, which had nothing to do with explosives.

Wrong the fire personal were describing them as going off just before and as the building collapsed. We have video evidence with the sound of booms before the collapse.
C'mon Howward you know that's not true.

Also wouldn't you think fire personal could distinguish the sound of explosives, which according to you is quite distinct, than the sound of a building collapsing?

Originally posted by Damocles
anok, i swear you are being argumentative for the sake of being argumentative.

What, because I don't agree with Howward?

Sry but if pointing out where the oposition has it wrong is arguing for aguings sake then so be it.

You are both saying there was no sounds of explosives, I'm reminding you there was and there are witnesses who says there was. But Howward is happy to believe the few who said they heard nothing.

I would supply all the links and charts and whatever like bsbray, but what's the point?
I know for a fact that Howward has heard and seen everything I have and knows exactly what I'm refering to, and most everyone who has been involved in these 9-11 threads should know also.

Sry if my style of posting is frustrating you, but if you expect me keep my mouth shut think again...

Originally posted by Damocles
were they able to conclusivly prove that HE explosions produced a very unique waveform on the sonograph?

I don't know that they were trying to isolate the sounds and prove they were HE's. I think they were just trying to point out that there were distinctive blasts as the buildings came down, even if audio equipment picked it up poorly.

Did you hear that square reduction of the steady "beats" or whatever you want to call them in the audio? That gives you an idea by audio of how fast those floors were coming down. Whether or not you think explosives did it, those floors would have had to have come down as fast as those square waves just by looking at the number of floors and collapse speed.

And notice that they don't slow down! That's the thing! The audio even proves it. The collapse kept trucking along with absolutely no change in collapse speed, maintaining a constant speed at just below the terminal velocity of free-falling material. How does that happen when there is steel and concrete in the way, let alone air? No resistance from hundreds of thousands of tons of steel and concrete? That's what really gets me, man.

Originally posted by Damocles
the point ive tried to make, i have many hours of hands on experience with demo including improvised and unconventional. yet, my opinion counts jack since i dont see a conspiracy sooooooo w/e.

Oh another poster with the 'I'm a pro so you should believe me routine'

oh do tell, what was used then? if it was unconventional demo, id absolutly LOVE to know what was used. be a whole new area of education for me.

Have you not heard of the thermite theory?

tell me, have you ever set off an explosive that wasnt a firework?

Well I was in the military for 6 years, so yes.
You act like you're the only person here with any experience of explosives, like Howward acts like he's the only person who has building experience. It doesn't matter. Anyone with a brain, regardless of what other jobs they have done can see the problems with the physics involved in the WTC collapses.
On top of that you have the politics, war in Iraq, Northwoods, Homeland defence, Patriot act....it doesn't stop...

Originally posted by ANOK
Just because they didn't hear explosions it doesn't mean there weren't any.

Did they specifically say they heard no explosives? Or just didn't mention it at all?

A Port Authority captain yelled at Lim to get moving, but he said, “You go ahead,” and he, too, put an arm around Harris, helping to carry her to the fourth floor.

That was when the wind started, even before the noise. “No one realizes about the wind,” says Komorowski.

The building was pancaking down from the top and, in the process, blasting air down the stairwell. The wind lifted Komorowski off his feet. “I was taking a staircase at a time,” he says, “It was a combination of me running and getting blown down.” Lim says Komorowski flew over him. Eight seconds later—that’s how long it took the building to come down—Komorowski landed three floors lower, in standing position, buried to his knees in pulverized Sheetrock and cement.

Originally posted by ANOK
Are the people who did hear explosions hearing things, lying? Why would the NYFD lie?

YOU are claiming that what they heard were explosions.

YOU have not provided any proof that the sounds were not the sounds of a 110 story building breaking up.

Why would NYFD personnel describe in detail explosions going off one after another?
Shouldn't they know what it was? Did they say it was gas lines or whatever exploding?
No, they said it sounded just like demo charges going off.

(emphasis added)

It also sounded just like a progressive collapse.

I would prefer to believe professional firefighters than a bunch of hysterical, confused, panicked civilians.

who was in stairwell B?

And actualy you can't always hear them, depends on the building and where their placed.

Not by my experience.

Most building when demoed are empty, not full of furniture, carpets, people, all sound absorbers.

[edit on 14/5/2006 by ANOK]

And how did those sound absorbers work for for the exterior columns?

Originally posted by Damocles
yes, ive heard the thermite theory and have posted about it. in summary, thermite usually burns in excess of 2500 degrees, yet many would contend not a single girder ever got over 650 degrees. so what is the theory exactly?

The thermite theory is that somehow, that hot metal from a thermite reaction was used to cut a column by moving horizontally, and that the columns didn't re-weld the cut, and that no one saw the flash of the burning thermite, in the exterior columns and that this reaction was somehow timed so that it all occurred within split seconds of each other and that it also produced huge jets of expanding dust (the squibs).

Originally posted by HowardRoark
The thermite theory is that somehow...

Woah, woah, stop. No. Everybody here should know you're the last person that would give a fair version of an aspect of CD theory. And thermite would just be one aspect -- collapse initiations.

That QT format is not working properly for me, no sound. From the looks of it, however, the collapse had already started before the first frame of the video.

So are you saying that after the collapse starts, loud explosions can go off and it's nothing to concern ourselves with? What exactly were they?

Originally posted by
then duck the question of how, if it WAS a demo charge, sounds not withstanding, two seemingly random charges could have any impact on bringing down a building.

We're not saying they did. We're not saying those were the only explosives, but only that those expulsions were caused by the detonations of certain single explosives.

In demolitions, charges sometimes go off at the wrong times and stick out. Personally, that's what I think we had with the squibs. There are videos out there showing the collapses from the ground, and you can see under the falling debris, and squib-like puffs are coming out floor-by-floor in rows, symmetrically. That's a little too much of a coincidence for me.

Originally posted by Damocles
as to the second half of the quote, im going to ask you to answer this question with a VERY open mind. lets pretend for one second taht there were NO explosive charges in the building. so you have tons of debris falling down displacing air or simply displacing things that were already there. what would you have expected to see?

I'm not sure I get where you're going. Are you saying you think material fell through the building and caused those expulsions?

Remember that there were 4" thick concrete slabs under the floors supported by the trusses.



So how would material fall all the way down the building to cause this?:




Also, look at this one again:



There's an easy way to prove that this wasn't the result of anything falling. We can agree that nothing can fall by gravity faster than free-fall, right? And we can also agree that air is much less resistant to a falling object than tons of steel and concrete, right?

Well look at the above squib, and you'll notice that the expulsion is coming out of a part of the building that the free-falling material has yet to reach.

what would be "normal" to see for this type of building?

I'm not comparing buildings so much as I'm just looking at basic physics concepts and things like that. There's nothing you can really compare these two collapses with, but laws of physics apply to everything.

[edit on 14-5-2006 by bsbray11]

What would be normal to see for this type of building? What kind of question is that since that was a unique building built up to that time and maybe ever since? Furthermore, how many have been on fire or came tumbling down? All pure spec and that is why the official story can be whatever regime connected people in the field say it was.

But lets get down to business here really...

If a plane loaded with fuel causes a primarily steel building to start collapsing from the top third because city hall would not allow spec fireproofing of the structural steel in the first place during construction... then how likely is it that said building would fall down so nice and clean?

Most important is this: If all the debunkers here are so confident that the planes brought down the twin towers and number 7 by themselves then why was not the steel thoroughly investigated after the collapse? NO-ONE has had a satisfactory answer for that question... no-one!

If a plane crashes and metal fatigue is believed to be a cause then there is an investigation to find out why. One crash led to an investigation so intense that it was determined that insufficient or weak rivets in the nose cone led to the plane crash (forget the crash right now).

The same thing happened at the Pentagon with the crash video's... not one good answer why the trump card was not thrown by the government to end all the conspiracies and let everyone confidently go back to their meagre lives... why not?

Because they are liars!

Originally posted by Damocles
why are the charges on those floors ONLY kicking out debris in ONE area?

They were coming out in rows of multiples where vision was more obscured. Watch the animation below carefully and you'll see a set of them come out simultaneously at one point (a little bit before the lone squib):

how were the demo charges hidden on those two floors as they are obviously NOT the 'mechanical' floors that some of the theories say were the locations of the larger charges?

I couldn't tell you. I would imagine they were in the trusses between floors, and there are theories on how this was achieved, but I wouldn't know.

were those stray blasts picked up anywhere on the sonograph readings?

If they were, I don't know how you'd be able to pick them out from everything else. But I wouldn't know this either.