Originally posted by Low Orbit


If this is the way China is going to pursue freedom of Religion now, just imagine what their policy will look like if they superseed the US as the worlds greatest superpower?

That is what amazes me about the people jumping up and down drooling at the mouth for China to take over the world. America....as bad as it can be....is 1000Xs better than China when it comes to rights and freedoms

posted by Amuk

posted by Low Orbit

If this is the way China is going to pursue freedom of Religion what will their policy look like if they supercede the US as the worlds greatest superpower?

That amazes me about people jumping up and down drooling at the mouth for China to take over the world. America as bad as it can be is 1000Xs better than China when it comes to rights and freedoms [Edited by Don W]

Actually, I’m curious. I wonder what went wrong to cause China to take what is a dramatic step if not a desperate step? I’m not up on RCC politics but there have been times and may still be times when the RCC has to obtain the prior approval of various governments before making appointments. There must be some behind the scenes problems here that caused China to up the ante. This did not happen in a vacuum. China is not known for preemption nor for acting in haste.

OTOH, I’ve said the RCC could unleash the energy of a billion people if it would do 3 things.
1) Ordain women priests,
2) accept a married clergy, and
3) arrange for the popular election of the next pope.

A Roman Catholic Church(An Individual Congregation of Catholics) would never elect a Bishop on their own will, without the approval of the Roman Catholic Church. Doing this proves you are not Catholic.

What this statement says to Catholicism(Us Catholics) is that here in China it is more important to be Chinese than to be Catholic.
Catholics put God before Country.

The Commies in China are attempting through this blatant CHINESE PROPAGANDA to show to #1 their own people and #2 to the Western World that the Chinese put Country before God.

This should be considered as a hostile act on all of the West, and for every single person living on this planet and their Human Rights.

posted by Low Orbit
An Individual Congregation of Catholics would never elect a Bishop on their own without the approval of the RCC papacy. What this statement says to Catholics is that here in China it is more important to be Chinese than to be Catholic. The Commies in China are attempting through this blatant CHINESE PROPAGANDA to show
#1 to their own people and
#2 to the Western World
that the Chinese put Country before God. This should be considered as a hostile act on all of the West, and for every single person living on this planet and their Human Rights. [Edited by Don W]

Whoa Up There, Low Orbit. A squabble inside a privately held organization - NGO we call it - does not rise to a violation of either international law nor of what is generally regarded as Human Rights. I don’t think America’s government should become involved in this area of discord and dispute. It is a family matter. It is novel and interesting because it has not happened recently.

The Chinese - despite American propaganda to the contrary - is a very much law abiding country. They abide by their laws. Not by ours. Which as the 800 lb gorilla since 1945, we are unaccustomed to. My interest is based on what must surely be some underlying circumstances which the report neglected to explain or even make reference to. The report would have you think this happened in a vacuum, in total isolation. Which is a form of propaganda. Non-reporting is often better than telling a lie which can often be readily checked through other source. But as in proving a negative, checking on a non report is very difficult.

So tell me L/O, what you think underlies this unusual transaction?

What I would guess are some of the underlying factors behind this transaction are as follows.

1. The fact that although China is taking steps to become more democratic their leadership both Politically and Militarily are still Communist.

2. China sees the American presence in the middle east as a threat to his countries gas prices. Over the last hundred years China has watched many countries around it become Democracies. China must feel the preasure, the noose is tightening around the dictatorships of the world as well as the remaining Communist nations of the world. After watching the Soviet Union fall and then the Russian Satelites one by one and now the Middle East do you think China and Russia aren't nervous about their future as countires as well.

3. You are exactly corrrect, most of China's citizens are law abiding this is true for several reasons. The fact that the Chinese government are against freedom of speech and freedom of religion and have no problem silencing the ones that are pro-western. There are a few examples in the mainstream media in which this is not the case, i.e.. Tiananmen Square

4. Many Times before War, Allies will prove to eachother politically why they will stand united and fight. I'm sure this news was heard loud and clear throughout the middle east and Asia in which many of them saw this political move as one to unite China with Russia and Iran against a possible western invasion.
I say these countries since none of them are tolerant of religion and all happen to believe that the Government has the right to control religion for political gain.

Originally posted by donwhite
what went wrong to cause China to take what is a
dramatic step if not a desperate step?

This isn't a dramatic and/or desperate step for China. They've been
doing this for decades. It's a control thing for the Chinese Government.
There are two catholic churches in China. The real one connected with
Rome and the Government one that lacks apostolic succession and is
therefore illicit in the eyes of the church.

They have been excommunicated.

1) Ordain women priests,

Can't ever happen. This is a law, not a discipline. Church laws
can't be changed. Disciplines can be. Women can NEVER be priests.
Period.

2) accept a married clergy

This is a discipline that can change as the Holy Spirit directs the church
to do so ... assuming that those Cardinals in charge are actaully listening
to what The Holy Spirit wants. Personally I do not want married priests.
I don't want to be on my death bed and not be able to get my priest
because he's too busy at his kids football game, or because he and
his wife are having a family vacation ... There is a quote in scripture,
and I can't remember off hand where it is, where an Apostle tells
people who wish to work for the Church not to get married because
married people are busy with many things but single people can do
the Lord's work without distraction. This is also what the church is
looking at.

(I'm too busy to look it up. It's somewhere in Acts I think.
I think Paul said it).

But yes, married or nonmarried priests can change. It's a discipline.

3) arrange for the popular election of the next pope.

Another 'can't happen' thing. The Catholic Church IS NOT a democracy.
It is set up the same way that Christ ran things when He was on Earth.
Christ was in charge. He had his 12 apostles. After (below) that there
were 72 disciples. After (below) that deacons were admitted to 'wait
tables to free the disciples for spiritual things'. (that's somewhere in
Acts)

The Catholic Church works from the top down, just as Christ did.
Christ didn't go around asking the people what they wanted to hear
and then telling them that. No. He told the people what they needed
to hear. It all came from the top down. Not the bottom up.

The Catholic Church has the pope, below that are the cardinals,
below that are the ArchBishops and Bishops, below that are the
monsiegnors and priests, and below that are the deacons. It all
flows from the top down, just as Christs ministry did 2,000 years ago.
(except Christ and His apostles were better behaved!!)

Besides ... I don't think that we could take elections. The ones
here in the states every 4 years are bad enough. Can you picture
the disinformation ads on TVs?? The garbage and trash being
tossed around?? Voter fraud. Election fixing. etc. etc. etc.
Except instead of in one country it would be world wide.



[edit on 5/5/2006 by FlyersFan]

posted by Low Orbit: “What I would guess are some of the underlying factors behind this transaction are as follows.

1. The fact that although China is taking steps to become more democratic their leadership both Politically and Militarily are still Communist. [Edited by Don W]

L/O, why to Americans insist on intermixing economic systems such as communism, and political systems, such as totalitarianism, then muddling through as if one requires the other? As capitalism under a totalitarian regime is fascism.

China is always pragmatic. Well, discounting Mao Zedong.

2. China sees the American presence in the Middle East as a threat to the countries gas prices. Over the last hundred years China has watched many countries around it become democracies. China must feel the pressure, the noose is tightening around the dictatorships of the world as well as the remaining Communist nations of the world.

Chinese are mostly followers of the teachings of Confucius.
Do right out of regard to your forebearers. Regardless of any religion many have but probably more do not. Confucius-ism - if there is such a word - means reverence for the ancestors, historically misrepresented in the West to be worship. Reverence, not worship. Respect for the sacrifice and for the accomplishments of the past. Unlike the West, they prefer to know their history rather than to repeat it ever couple of generations.

Most of real life in China is local. There is a very democratic practice of resolving local issues by councils of elders, and everyone gets to say his or her piece. Pure democracy where it counts. As you rise in the power structure, there is less and less room for dissent. But China does not admire America’s system nor does China want any part of it. Sleep easy on that.

After watching the Soviet Union fall and then the Russian satellites one by one and now the Middle East do you think China and Russia aren't nervous about their future as countries as well.

Yes I do. But not because either is scared over the Bush style of democracy. Good government means personal security at the street level, fair taxation, competent bureaucracies, and the right to be left alone. It does not mean to sell your soul to Jack Abramoff’s of the world.

3. You are exactly correct, most of China's citizens are law abiding this is true for several reasons. The fact that the Chinese government are against freedom of speech and freedom of religion and have no problem silencing the ones that are pro-western.

See my comments just above.

4. Many Times before War, Allies will prove to each other politically why they will stand united and fight. I'm sure this news was heard loud and clear throughout the Middle East and Asia in which many of them saw this political move as one to unite China with Russia and Iran against a possible western invasion.

What ninny in the West is talking war anyway? Holy *****, can’t we ever get a leader who can see beyond the bayonet? I can still hum the tune to “Give Peace a Chance.” there is no one talking war except our Gang of Four, Geo W, VP Cheney Sec Condo Rice and the Oberfuhrer.

I say these countries since none of them are tolerant of religion and all happen to believe that the Government has the right to control religion for political gain.

Well, that concept is not unknown in the West, L/O.

Originally posted by donwhite

all happen to believe that the Government has
the right to control religion for political gain.

Well, that concept is not unknown in the West, L/O.

THAT seems to be a common problem throughout the world,
doesn't it?? Governments using religion for political gain.
Jesus would be rolling over in his grave .. if He were in it.
I'm sure Buddah and Gandi and the rest (where ever they
are) are shaking their heads and rolling their eyes at this planet.

posted by FlyersFan

posted by donwhite

Low Orbit siad: all happen to believe that the Government has the right to control religion for political gain.

Well, that concept is not unknown in the West, L/O.

THAT seems to be a common problem throughout the world,
doesn't it? Governments using religion for political gain. Jesus would be rolling over in his grave .. if He were in it. I'm sure Buddha and Gandhi and the rest are shaking their heads and rolling their eyes at this planet. [Edited by Don W]

Well, it was not until the 1929 Latern Treaty that Mussolini got the Popes out of the government business. Old habits die slowly.

[edit on 5/5/2006 by donwhite]

Of course countries have bias towards certain religions. And favor some more than others, this has happened with every country throughout history. What I am trying to say in this thread is that China does not tolerate Western Religion. If the U.S. attempted to do to Islam what the Chinese have done to Catholicsm we would already be in WW3.

What I fogot to note earlier is the timing in which China made this statement. This statement comes at a time when there are still many disputes on the table between the two countries

1. Trade Deficit/undervalued Chinese Currency is it the Yuan>
2. the unresolved problem with North Korea
3. the unresolved problem of Iran
4. the potential conflict over Taiwan
5. the oil crisis - from where will China get its oil
and now 6. The People's Republic of China Roman Catholic Church(bad joke)

It seems that every time we attempt to hammer out one of these problems China starts another one.

And where is China when we try to solve any of these problems. They become indifferent!! The People of the World should take note of this!!

Christians are the intruders in China. It is not the other way round. Modern Christianity is lock-step with capitalism which is not high on the Chinese "things to do" list.

posted by Low Orbit: “This statement comes at a time when there are still many disputes on the table between the two countries

1. Trade Deficit/undervalued Chinese Currency is it the Yuan

Low Orbit, why do we bitch when China keeps its currency undervalued so we can buy a motorcycle for $1,200 when if the yuan was re-valued as we - our government - wants, the same motorcycle would cost us $2,000.

Why do you care if the Chinese want to give us the benefit of under priced goods? I mean, as long as they sell their stuff here on the cheap, why are you complaining?



Can you explain that, please? Why you want to pay more for Chinese goods. Don't be suckered by Geo W.

2. the unresolved problem with North Korea

China has no problem with NK. So why are you mixing our problem with NK in this China post? What country has 38,000 soldiers within 50 miles of its border? And probably nuclear boms.

3. the unresolved problem of Iran

China is buying natural gas and crude oil from Iran. I have not heard there was any problem between Iran and China.

Uhh, L/O, methinks you are watching FOX too much. It’ll do it to you.

4. the potential conflict over Taiwan

Now there is one problem. But, aren’t Taiwanese really Chinese? Isn’t this like the Catholic problem, a family squabble? Why do we want to stick our nose into their internal problem? Chiang Kai Chek died 35 years ago. We’re going to get stung real hard on this one. Do you really want to trade San Francisco for Nanking?

5. the oil crisis - from where will China get its oil?

Maybe like Japan, get it from Alaska’s Prudhoe Bay or ANWR. Let's just let the Chinese worry about that. We need to worry where we will get our oil from.

It seems that every time we attempt to hammer out one of these problems China starts another one. And where is China when we try to solve any of these problems. [Edited by Don W]

L/O, you’re striking out on China. We have a problem, but China does not.



[edit on 5/5/2006 by donwhite]

Originally posted by donwhite

posted by Low Orbit: “This statement comes at a time when there are still many disputes on the table between the two countries

1. Trade Deficit/undervalued Chinese Currency is it the Yuan

Low Orbit, why do we bitch when China keeps its currency undervalued so we can buy a motorcycle for $1,200 when if the yuan was re-valued as we - our government - wants, the same motorcycle would cost us $2,000.

Q: Why do you care if the Chinese want to give us the benefit of under priced goods? I mean, as long as they sell their stuff here on the cheap, why are you complaining?


A: Hmm I don't know bleeding heart, maybe to give the american worker a chance to produce just as good of a motorcycle for 2,000 bucks.

What is your job I can illustrate for you a better example if you tell me what you do.


Can you explain that, please? Why you want to pay more for Chinese goods. Don't be suckered by Geo W.

2. the unresolved problem with North Korea

Q. China has no problem with NK. So why are you mixing our problem with NK in this China post? What country has 38,000 soldiers within 50 miles of its border? And probably nuclear boms.

A. You are correct. China is as indifferent about NK as a liberal is indifferent about the War on Terror. China is indifferent #1 because they don't care about human rights or in this case the lives of its own Chinese Citizens or NK Citizens. #2 because the fact that another Nuke Armed Commy country in Asia only strengthen China's hand.

3. the unresolved problem of Iran

Q. China is buying natural gas and crude oil from Iran. I have not heard there was any problem between Iran and China.

Uhh, L/O, methinks you are watching FOX too much. It’ll do it to you.

A. Methinks DonWhite doesn't understand Global Politics. You have not heard there is a problem for the US with the Chinese helping Iran. Do you live inside a Newsweek Magazine? Just because Howard Fineman cries about something doesnt make it true.

4. the potential conflict over Taiwan

Q. Now there is one problem. But, aren’t Taiwanese really Chinese? Isn’t this like the Catholic problem, a family squabble? Why do we want to stick our nose into their internal problem? Chiang Kai Chek died 35 years ago. We’re going to get stung real hard on this one. Do you really want to trade San Francisco for Nanking?

A. I don't know are you Chinese is that why you are thinking with the Chinese perspective. What if you were born on Taiwan? What if you were a Taiwanese man/woman who actually cared about human rights? Not everyone is so fortunate to be able to be indifferent about human rights as you are. You should move to China for a year, and try to see how their government handles certain issues than we can talk.

5. the oil crisis - from where will China get its oil?

Maybe like Japan, get it from Alaska’s Prudhoe Bay or ANWR. Let's just let the Chinese worry about that. We need to worry where we will get our oil from.

It seems that every time we attempt to hammer out one of these problems China starts another one. And where is China when we try to solve any of these problems. [Edited by Don W]

L/O, you’re striking out on China. We have a problem, but China does not.



[edit on 5/5/2006 by donwhite]

"Uhh, L/O, methinks you are watching FOX too much. It’ll do it to you."

It always surprises me how great the liberals in this Country think China is. If only things could be more like China, If only our government's policy could be more like China's.

Don White you give liberals a bad name. For so long, liberals in the US have fought for the human rights of its own citizens as well as citizens around the world. Simply because China has grown to the size of an emerging superpower econmically and politically doesn't mean that we have to abandon our efforts at improving Human Rights in China and the rest of Asia for that matter.

For you Don Im sure if it is out of site it is out of mind.

You stand for nothing other than indiffernce. You have no substance.

Low Orbit, why bitch when China keeps its currency undervalued so we can buy a motorcycle for $1,200 when if the yuan was re-valued as we - our government - wants, the same motorcycle would cost us $2,000.

A: Hmm, I don't know Bleeding Heart, maybe to give the American worker a chance to produce just as good of a motorcycle for 2,000 bucks.

A revival of once #1 Indian motorcycle of Springfield MA just went under for the umpteenth time. If Harley D wasn’t a cult item, it would have been out of business in the 1970s. Why? Because it was making an inferior product compared to BMW and Japanese bikes. The Harley used the 19-teens designed 45 deg V twin which is impossible to balance thus giving a high vibration ride. Like, boom boom ka boom. Not at all like the BMW opposed twins or the many Japanese bikes that ride like a Beautyrest mattress!

What is your job I can illustrate for you a better example if you tell me what you do.

My last job was clerking at a privately owned waste water pre-treatment plant. 6 employees. 1 lab man, 1 clerk, 1 boss and 3 workers. Keeping up with applicable regulations was my main task. I know what you are driving at but I don’t think my job will fit.

“Q. China has no problem with NK.” A. You are correct. China is as indifferent about NK as a liberal is indifferent about the War on Terror. China is indifferent
#1) because they don't care about human rights or in this case the lives of its own Chinese Citizens or NK Citizens.
#2) because the fact that another Nuke Armed Commy country in Asia only strengthen China's hand.

Look here, L/O, when you’re dealing with 1.3 billion people you can’t use measures developed 8,000 miles away, 200 years ago for just over 3 million people. Already our system as bequeathed by the Founding Fathers is long in the tooth. A major overhaul is just around the corner in the good ole US of A. China has dramatically reduced the infant mortality rate over the past half century, and has greatly extended the longevity in that same time frame.

Chinese and Koreans are neighbors not lovers. There are 23 million Koreans in the North, not a small number. There are 48 million people in the South. Every Korean holds the ambition to see his county reunited. Japan by way of comparison has 130 million people. And 23 million people live on Taiwan. China can tolerate North Korea for reasons we cannot. NK is not about to attack China, but it could very easily attack nearby US facilities or even, if it really goes mad, Japan. But our problem with NK is our problem and the 6 Party talks will not solve it.

“Q. China is buys gas and crude oil from Iran. I have not heard of any problem between Iran and China.” A. Methinks DonWhite doesn't understand Global Politics. You have not heard there is a problem for the US with the Chinese helping Iran.

L/O, you said it - “ . . a problem for the US with the Chinese helping Iran . . “ the problem is a ‘for the US’ problem. Not the China’s problem, not Iran’s problem, but the US problem. We want what we cannot have. In big time world politics that is a no-no. America’s leaders will have to “get over it.” I contend the Iran thing is pure Republican hyperbole for November 7.

4. Taiwan “Q. Now there is a problem.” A. I don't know are you Chinese is that why you are thinking with the Chinese perspective. What if you were born on Taiwan?

[If I was born on Taiwan before 1949, I’d be a Formosan. A forgotten people.]

What if you were a Taiwanese who actually cared about human rights?

[What’s this constant 'Human Rights' thing, L/O? Like our own Abu Ghraib?]

Not everyone is so fortunate to be able to be indifferent about human rights as you are.

[Like in Darfur?]

You should move to China for a year, and try to see how their government handles certain issues then we can talk.

Maybe we could both move there and share a rented hootch out in the interior of China where they still plow rice paddies behind a water buffalo?

5. “Where will China get its oil?” A. It seems that every time we attempt to hammer out one of these problems China starts another one. And where is China when we try to solve any of these problems. Simply because China has grown to the size of an emerging superpower economially and politically doesn't mean that we have to abandon our efforts at improving Human Rights in China and the rest of Asia for that matter. For you Don Im sure if it is out of sight it is out of mind. You stand for nothing other than indifference. You have no substance. [Edited by Don W]

I think we are mislabeling our problems and making ours as if they were the problems of others. I think every problem mentioned can best be solved at 1600 Pennsylvania Avenue and not in Beijing.

[edit on 5/6/2006 by donwhite]

of course every problem I listed could be solved at the White House, however it takes 2 to tango and and money to solve these issues. The point of my posts is to alert ATS of the fact that China is not directing any of its Monetary Assets to deal with these problems, the US is though.

If China were serious it would invest monetarily in these global problems. However it seems to be more concerned with its Military and its hold on its people's religion. To me, this tells me something.

Don, if you are more concerned about getting cheap goods rather than national security and human rights your policy is bound to blow up in your face. Simply because they sell us cheap goods doesn't by default make them our best friends.