And our government is even worse.

Originally posted by EastCoastKid
When we were in Desert Storm, I read an account of 40 reserve soldiers going AWOL/Desertion from Ft. Campbell, KY (our home base) b/c the accomodations/barracks were not, in their opinion, liveable. I howled with laughter mixed with anger. How dare those little pu$$ees cry about living conditions! They had warm, soft beds, clean, air conditioned barracks and hot showers and washers and dryers, not to mention hot food every morning noon and night. aND ALL the WINE, WOMENT AND SONG THEY COULD GORGE THEMSELVES ON. We were out in the middle of BumF*#@k Egypt living in filth, getting scuds shot at us. And I'm not complaining, cuz THAT, MY FRIEND, IS WHAT THE AIRBORNE IS TRAINED TO DO.
What kind of weak-A@@ muthafrockas are gonna pull something like that? What kind of whining little Army do we have now? From everything I've heard and been told by friends who stayed in beyond my time, (SKADI included) our troops are SPOILED ROTTEN and SOFT these days. That's scarey. Soldiers should be trained HARDCORE, cuz WAR is hardcore.

Basically, when I was in (89-92), we had every thing we needed. Conditions were completely sanitized and government austere. Nuthin' fancy. You'd never starve, though, and our leaders did everything they could to guide us away from making bad $$ choices. I could never complain. Like someone said, the military AIN'T college and it AIN't the frockin' boy scouts!!! It's life and death. As a matter of fact, I thought boot camp back in my day would be a helluva lot harder than it was.

Someone in this thread mentioned the fact that Vets would do anything to stay away from Veteran's Hospitals. TRUE! Service may be free, and thank God it's there as a last resort, but truly I say, YOU GET WHAT YOU PAY FOR!!! In my regular days, SICKCALL was a nightmare! Those docs for the most part don't give a rat's A$$ about the troops/vets. They're not gettin paid a penny more to worry.

....AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!
A breath of fresh air....................................

Originally posted by Skadi_the_Evil_Elf
Trash Cans?

Our drill seargant came in drunk many nights, roused us from our bunks, and tossed our #ing wall lockers out the goddamn windows, matresses soon to follow, and we had an hour and a half to retrieve the items, get them inspectipn ready once again, ect. While he lit up a cigarette in front of us........

That said, no, Tyrrific, I disagree. This is NOT cool what they are doing. Tho this is NOT a new issue, its one that has been repeatedly buried along with other veterans concerns. Waiting forever to get medical care, thats just stupid. They wonder why so many vets get disabled, sick, have problems, ect....if they are gonna send the human war machines to go play in thier stupid ridiculous conflicts, they had best go out of thier fat ass #ing ways to ensure the total soundness and function of those machines is well in order. There is ALOT more they can be doing.

We WASTE billions in absolute nonsense govornment spending, yet we cant do # for troops? I dont think so. We shall spend 87 million to reconstruct Iraq, and fight and resist to grant veterans a 1000 dollar per person settlement for agent orange?

NO, this country has a nasty habit of taking big fat #s on military personell, both active and veteran, reserve, ect. Theres a difference between coddling and neglect.

And, TC is right, this president, nor the last one, none of em have done much for vets really. VA hospitals still suck ass. VA benefits still #ed up.

And they wodner why no one wants to join? Because they pretty much toss you in the garbage heap once they have sucked your life and youth away. The streets and mental wards are filled with throw away people who once wore the uniform.

Skadi-~~~

Nice story!! Same happened to us one day- except it was three stories of barracks beds, linen, wall lockers and whatever was loose thrown on the exercise yard......FUN!!!!

I am not wrong. You can't blame bush for the VA. It has, and will be crap because it is a privlege (free) to be treated there. You figure this out.

Your use of profanity in your post says a lot about your stay in the armed forces.....and your stand against the government....I'm sorry.....

Hippie Power!!!

What EastcoastKid said........................

Tyrrific......

I dont blame only Bush, I blame Clinton as well, for neither have done anything.

My hostility towards the govornment came from many sources, mostly the military. As East Coast said, they are softening it up considerably, which believe it or not, has lowered Morale. How can you be proud and confident of what youre doing if you know your training is bull#, your leaders dont give a #, and you have no idea how todig in a position that will give you cover and advantage? I said it before, during my stay in, the first 2 years were not so bad, they were building up tho. The last two years, I watched as sensitivity trainign replaced actual combat training, undisciplined soldiers calling thier officers dude and hey man, NCOs spending thier days at the Burger Barn while the rest of us eithe ran amok, or were running around trying to keep # together and functional, trying to take charge when our leaders were absdent and instill some sort of order, only to be reprimanded later. Needless to say its a mess.

Soldiers going awol is not a sign of poor conditions, but lowered standards and morale. In Iraq, how do you expect them to do otherwise? How can you fight when your heart is not in it? When you suddenly realize what a #ing joke it all is, what a bunch of bull# youve been sent on, and that no one gives a # and you have no clue exactly what your mission and goal is? On top of that, you have a force of undisciplined, unhardened and untrained, #ed up morons and monkeys, who are experiencing this.

Thats why I got out..........though the military would have been my choice for life career, I had no intention of serving.....something other than my country.....alongside a bunch of little assclowns off the streets, ate the # up, who dont know where you put the fuel in the humvee...........

That, and I lost heart too, after my tour of Saudi, and ther sudden realization that I could die defending any numerous people on earth that I loathed, for causes I didnt believe in, because the only cause I signed up for and was pretty much content to die for was the defense of the USA. And when I realized that this was the last thing on their minds, I got out. The Idea of defending Saudi Arabia, Europe, ect, when none of this was benefitting and, in many ways, actually HURTING my country, was simply more than this elf could stomach, and to this day I hold hatred and bitterness not for those who innocently and honestly donned the uniform thinking they were doing something to give back to society and America, but my hatred is burning for the fat cat #s and slimy sacks of # who have been selling and running this country into the ground for our enemies, making us weaker and a laughing stock while they get stronger to one day gang up on us.

Amnd again, i shall continue to bitch about the VA. If we will give some immigrant 60k to start a business, but make a vet wait a year before they can get prostate surgery, something is seriously #ing wrong.

Originally posted by EastCoastKidThose docs for the most part don't give a rat's A$$ about the troops/vets. They're not gettin paid a penny more to worry.

This is more true than you'd think, at first...After all, why *should* they care, since the military keeps them safe from malpractice suits. Those docs (& preachers, lawyers, etc) who actually make a career in the military are always "military first, (actual profession) second".

Originally posted by Skadi_the_Evil_Elf
I dont blame only Bush, I blame Clinton as well, for neither have done anything.

It's not just Bush *or* Clinton...The Presidents aren't even much of an effect overall. It's the way of the "military construct" that suggests such poolicies up the "chain of command" & how the higher-level officers actually "play the game".

When I was in the Navy, there was a PO1 who was up for promotion to CPO...Pretty much everybody of lower rank who knew her & worked with her was mostly unanimous in the belief that she desrved it. When it came time for the vebal "examination board" part of the promotion process, she was asked if she would, in the case of some type of controversy, either follow the opinions (if no actual *orders* to the contrary were given) of her superiors or stand behind what she thought was right...Her answer was that she'd stand behind what's right. They told her that it wasn't the attitude they wanted & that they were looking for someone more willing to "play the game" (yes, those were their *exact words*).
...She immediately withdrew her application for the promotion...

This happened during the time of "Daddy Bush's" time in Office, BTW, just a matter of a few months before Desert Sheild turned into Desert Storm...

Skadi~~

I understand your point....sensitivity training???

I ETSd in '87 from active duty. Forgive me. the only thing I heard was gripin from drills saying how they couldn't slap the tar outta 'cruits anymore!!

Gives ya a warm feeling inside to feel their pain.....

Yes, it seems the military is going the way of corporate America- I recently had to undergo "PRIDE" training...aka, DIVERSITY INCULCATION/ RAINBOW ACCEPTANCE OR BE FIRED DAY..we watched episodes of All In The Family for one segment and had certain individuals raise holy high hell about all of the PC violations!! You can't even kill people who are trying to kill you without saying "excuse me for infringing on your personal space, Mr. Terrorist Arsehole" any more.....

I was leaving boot when coed was coming in...glad I missed it. I heard from guys who are in now that morale just went into the crapper- did you wonder why some people always were put at the front of the company runs?????

Originally posted by Tyriffic
Skadi~~

I understand your point....sensitivity training???

I ETSd in '87 from active duty. Forgive me. the only thing I heard was gripin from drills saying how they couldn't slap the tar outta 'cruits anymore!!

Gives ya a warm feeling inside to feel their pain.....

Yes, it seems the military is going the way of corporate America- I recently had to undergo "PRIDE" training...aka, DIVERSITY INCULCATION/ RAINBOW ACCEPTANCE OR BE FIRED DAY..we watched episodes of All In The Family for one segment and had certain individuals raise holy high hell about all of the PC violations!! You can't even kill people who are trying to kill you without saying "excuse me for infringing on your personal space, Mr. Terrorist Arsehole" any more.....

I was leaving boot when coed was coming in...glad I missed it. I heard from guys who are in now that morale just went into the crapper- did you wonder why some people always were put at the front of the company runs?????

When I went in in '89, I was was shocked that the drills couldn't even cuss at us. After all those years of hearing the horror stories, I couldn't believe how pussified it was. And that wasn't even the start of it. I noticed the PC creeping in around the time I got out. Get this, we got a new BN commander shortly before my ETS. The guy had not gone to war with us and thought he was some kind of CEO. He infuriated me with his PC bu#. He changed our BN's moniker (from Vietnam-Gulf) from IRON EAGLE BN TO - I'm gonna gag - SPIRIT OF THE EAGLE. can u believe that?!!!

Military training NEEDS to be hardcore for good reason. If you can't handle a little abuse from friendlies, there's no way you can handle the real thing. Sensitivity training is DANGEROUS to the safety and well-being of our forces. And just for the record - race/gender relations were pretty damn good from what I could see. The only women, for example, who were treated like shyte, sad to say, were whores and whiners.

Race and gender relations both went down the crapper.

In 92, our drills still cursed at us and screamed in our faces, and tortured us for amusment by making us do pushups right on a anthill of red fire ants for thier sadistic amusement, but shortly after I left basic, and wehen I returned to ft jackson to process to ship to Germany, i was surprised....

For one, in basic training, get this #.....they actually allow them to have radios, pizza parties, and even watch MOVIES! They dont get screamed at. Stress cards can now be held up when the troops gets too stressed out. Alot of things have been removed from training.

When I was in, we were smoked and tortured for even thinking or mentioning pizza. We were forbidden any literature except religous books such as a bible or Koran. No smoking. No music, no radios, no cameras. Women were not allowed to have razors to shave our armpits and legs. The only movies we got to see were training videos showing us the destructive potential and appreciation of the explosives we were about to play with. Going to church to get out of sunday duty was a big no no, because no matter what, while the church goers were waiting for the chaplain to open the chennel, our psychotic Puero Rican drill had us doing the dying cockroach and endless pushups and moutnain climbers with bibles on our backs, if we dropped the bible, the drill made sure we felt "gods wrath" for letting the bible fall on the dirt. "Your soul belongs to Jesus, but your ass belongs to me" was our pre sermon pep talk......

This was the way it SHOULD be. Basic training is meant to HARDEN you up and make you capable of functioning under extreme hardship and stress. I would not change basic training, unfortunately, it has.......

And you can imagine, these new breed of troops, with thier basic training cinemas, pizza parties, and no more yelling........now you see why I decided I had no desire to be an NCO in this new army. No wall to wall counseling? My first two squad leaders had no rpoblem with it, and niether did we, since it allowed release for frustrations and kept paperwork from poluting your military record.

Anyway, my point about the mistreatment of the troops wasnt that it should all be cushy and nice. But, with the incresing amount of bull# conflicts, on top of that, the decline of benefits and other compensations for retirees, now, the wounded and ill get to rot for months without seeing a doc. Its not like we dont have the money and the personell....after all, we just issued 87 billion to Iraq rebuilding....

What about troop rebuilding? Have they been forgotten? If we got all this friggin money to throw at Haliburton and the like, how can we NOT be pissed about THIS?

Originally posted by Skadi_the_Evil_Elf
Race and gender relations both went down the crapper.

In 92, our drills still cursed at us and screamed in our faces, and tortured us for amusment by making us do pushups right on a anthill of red fire ants for thier sadistic amusement, but shortly after I left basic, and wehen I returned to ft jackson to process to ship to Germany, i was surprised....

For one, in basic training, get this #.....they actually allow them to have radios, pizza parties, and even watch MOVIES! They dont get screamed at. Stress cards can now be held up when the troops gets too stressed out. Alot of things have been removed from training.

When I was in, we were smoked and tortured for even thinking or mentioning pizza. We were forbidden any literature except religous books such as a bible or Koran. No smoking. No music, no radios, no cameras. Women were not allowed to have razors to shave our armpits and legs. The only movies we got to see were training videos showing us the destructive potential and appreciation of the explosives we were about to play with. Going to church to get out of sunday duty was a big no no, because no matter what, while the church goers were waiting for the chaplain to open the chennel, our psychotic Puero Rican drill had us doing the dying cockroach and endless pushups and moutnain climbers with bibles on our backs, if we dropped the bible, the drill made sure we felt "gods wrath" for letting the bible fall on the dirt. "Your soul belongs to Jesus, but your ass belongs to me" was our pre sermon pep talk......

This was the way it SHOULD be. Basic training is meant to HARDEN you up and make you capable of functioning under extreme hardship and stress. I would not change basic training, unfortunately, it has.......

And you can imagine, these new breed of troops, with thier basic training cinemas, pizza parties, and no more yelling........now you see why I decided I had no desire to be an NCO in this new army. No wall to wall counseling? My first two squad leaders had no rpoblem with it, and niether did we, since it allowed release for frustrations and kept paperwork from poluting your military record.

Anyway, my point about the mistreatment of the troops wasnt that it should all be cushy and nice. But, with the incresing amount of bull# conflicts, on top of that, the decline of benefits and other compensations for retirees, now, the wounded and ill get to rot for months without seeing a doc. Its not like we dont have the money and the personell....after all, we just issued 87 billion to Iraq rebuilding....

What about troop rebuilding? Have they been forgotten? If we got all this friggin money to throw at Haliburton and the like, how can we NOT be pissed about THIS?

To put it simply, she's right and it's a fukkken shame.
Pizza parties and movies in boot camp? If we had to fight the Russians in ground combat, I assure you all, they would CHEW US UP and SPIT US OUT.
We had to sit inside a boiling hot WW2 hangar, thoroughly sleep-deprived and watch Russian BASIC training films to understand our enemy. That's the only "entertainment" we got and maybe an hour in church on Sunday.
Stress cards? Drill had yer stress cards right here, if you know what I mean.
Back to the original subject, our vets are getting screwed without a kiss and the Reserves and Guard are facing even worse - total redheaded stepchild status. There is NO EXCUSE for our government's turning its back on its best and bravest citizens.

...stress cards...I have heard of this....."Please, oho please mister Army man!! Don't yell at me!! I have anxiety disorder!!"

Yeah. Ok. Sorry. Here, let me brush this mud off of you.

A lot changed from 84 to 89...We were constantly called scumbag, # for brains, maggot, and a host of gender oriented debasements I won't share. I clearly remember SGT. Styles and his torture chamber buddy griping cuz they couldn't take us to the cadre shack for a lump fest anymore...we did have ONE night of fun in boot tho'- at the end of a hard day we were told that we were going to get a beer truck outside of the barracks the next evening-ok, like were we gullible or what??
Well, that evening came and with it a beautiful semi and cooler trailer (full length) emblazoned with one word: BUDWIESER. Roll up sides with loose beers packed in crushed ice in O.D. green camoflage! I tell you, It was like prettiest thing I'd seen six weeks. It was 5 degrees and no one cared. They let us have two 22 oncers each and we all had sweet dreams that night. They said it was because we kicked azz in our battalion competition....

I always was taught to respect others-until they spit on me- and to look out for those of weaker constitutions, ( and this was done in boot for some) but placing emphasis on PC is debilitating the fighting spirit in some and making soldiers think too much about things that hav no place in this profession.

Originally posted by Tyriffic

I always was taught to respect others-until they spit on me- and to look out for those of weaker constitutions, ( and this was done in boot for some) but placing emphasis on PC is debilitating the fighting spirit in some and making soldiers think too much about things that hav no place in this profession.

You're exactly right. The easier we go on our recruits, the more in danger they are out on the field of battle. Soft=Dead.

I guess it would be silly to put new recruits through a more "scientific" stress test, like what they do to astronauts?

Those that make are let in and the army is left with people who can handle the stress. It seems to me that there must be a way still have rigorious testing yet still be PC about it.

this is an edit test. the edit tag seems to be broken

Originally posted by ktprktpr
I guess it would be silly to put new recruits through a more "scientific" stress test, like what they do to astronauts?

Those that make are let in and the army is left with people who can handle the stress. It seems to me that there must be a way still have rigorious testing yet still be PC about it.

Take it from a Vet, friend, on the field of battle, there is NO place for PC.

Amen to that, EC.

PC has no place in the military, period. War and battle are ugly. Softening the soldiers makes dead soldiers. Or less than capable ones.

Pizza parties, sensitivity training. Stress cards. Politics. I really worry about our army if we ever had to face a REAL enemy on the ol field. So far we have been lucky in battling decimated militaries and rag tag bands of fighters. This is why I worry about North Korea......I can guarantee you Korean troops have no policies regarding the telling of dirty jokes, and they are happy if they get rice to eat, let alone pizza.

Our drills techincally couldnt hit us, at least our PERSON. They figured ways around that, liek taking a cleaning rod and banging the # out of our helmets, and stuff like that. Throwing objects at us was another pasttime too. Now I hear they cant even do that anymore.

Originally posted by Skadi_the_Evil_Elf
Amen to that, EC.

PC has no place in the military, period. War and battle are ugly. Softening the soldiers makes dead soldiers. Or less than capable ones.

Pizza parties, sensitivity training. Stress cards. Politics. I really worry about our army if we ever had to face a REAL enemy on the ol field. So far we have been lucky in battling decimated militaries and rag tag bands of fighters. This is why I worry about North Korea......I can guarantee you Korean troops have no policies regarding the telling of dirty jokes, and they are happy if they get rice to eat, let alone pizza.

Our drills techincally couldnt hit us, at least our PERSON. They figured ways around that, liek taking a cleaning rod and banging the # out of our helmets, and stuff like that. Throwing objects at us was another pasttime too. Now I hear they cant even do that anymore.

You know, I did in fact get smakked around once out on the firing range! I was really pissed off, layin' in the prone position, in a hole full freezing water and sand and was havin' a bad day. My old steel pot kept fallin' down over my eyes & I'd miss my shot. I got so mad, I threw it off and started cussin'. A drilll saw me, grabbed the steel pot, shoved it down on my head so hard my head still hurts thinkin' of it and he started yelling at me and hitting me all over the head with his little pointer/rod that he was carrying. (It was pretty funny in retrospect.)
They also smoked us on occassion 8 ways to Sunday - till THEY GOT TIRED OF LOOKIN AT US. Who remembers doin' flutterkicks! (My favorite) I also frocked up royal once, I was so hot and delerious. I drank water when I was sposed to be at parade rest. The bastud moved the unit a half mile away it seemed, and I had to bear crawl all the way over - of course all the while not letting my weapon or anything else touch the ground while doing so. HA HA. It's funny as hell. (At least, looking back, that is!)

ECK, it's all funny in retrospect ain't it????

Two words- Dyin' Cockroach!!

...one last story...I froiked up on the range one time also. Got yelled at, told to head to the CADRE SHACK, aka torture chamber, for some kind of fun.
Got inside and was ignored by the 3 or 4 Sgts sipping hot coffee, jokin and smokin and just plain enjoying my pain.
My drill came over to me (at attention for quite a while) and asked me if I ride a motorcycle? I say some. He says "Ride the bike boy!!" Ok. I'm like WTH?? Well, you know you don't ask questions that are dumb- so, I say, how do you mean?///

Try standing against a wall, heels tight against the wall. Crouch down/bend your knees halfway, extend your arms like you are cruisin on your bike while some yahoo is yelling"Give it some gas boy!! Give it some gas!!!" for like a half an hour........pain.....

Originally posted by Tyriffic
ECK, it's all funny in retrospect ain't it????

Two words- Dyin' Cockroach!!

...one last story...I froiked up on the range one time also. Got yelled at, told to head to the CADRE SHACK, aka torture chamber, for some kind of fun.
Got inside and was ignored by the 3 or 4 Sgts sipping hot coffee, jokin and smokin and just plain enjoying my pain.
My drill came over to me (at attention for quite a while) and asked me if I ride a motorcycle? I say some. He says "Ride the bike boy!!" Ok. I'm like WTH?? Well, you know you don't ask questions that are dumb- so, I say, how do you mean?///

Try standing against a wall, heels tight against the wall. Crouch down/bend your knees halfway, extend your arms like you are cruisin on your bike while some yahoo is yelling"Give it some gas boy!! Give it some gas!!!" for like a half an hour........pain.....

Ooh.. I hear ya Tyrrific!
Here's one more from the annals from hell...
We're in around the third week of BASIC, it's a hot and sweltering New Jersey afternoon. They have us sitting row by row by row at the position of attention for hours on end inside an old stuffy World War II hangar. We're watching Russian BASIC training films and trying with all our might not to fall over from sleep deprivation. I've never been so bored and miserable and hot in my life. The feeling is universal. They know we're all dyin'. You close your eyes for more than 15 seconds and you're toast... I turn quick and glance at the back of the hangar, cuz I hear whimpers.. It's a soldier in the sleep position.. (on their toes, knees bent, arms held straight out.. until the drills get tired of looking at said soldier.. the soldier is shaking and has tears running down their face. I knew right then and there closing my eyes for the briefest respite was NOT an option.

[Edited on 19-09-2003 by EastCoastKid]

From ECK~~

I turn quick and glance at the back of the hangar, cuz I hear whimpers.. It's a soldier in the sleep position.. (on their toes, knees bent, arms held straight out.. until the drills get tired of looking at said soldier.. the soldier is shaking and has tears running down their face. I knew right then and there closing my eyes for the briefest respite was NOT an option.

Yes indeed, he rode the bike!!!


Man, they teach you how to be sadists don't they??!

Originally posted by Tyriffic


From ECK~~

I turn quick and glance at the back of the hangar, cuz I hear whimpers.. It's a soldier in the sleep position.. (on their toes, knees bent, arms held straight out.. until the drills get tired of looking at said soldier.. the soldier is shaking and has tears running down their face. I knew right then and there closing my eyes for the briefest respite was NOT an option.

Yes indeed, he rode the bike!!!


Man, they teach you how to be sadists don't they??!

ABSOTIVELY!