Infinite must exist

I see alot of post denouncing the concept of infinity. Most are baseless.. and their main supporting argument is the human fallibilty in concieving the concept.

As we all know , everything is based upon cause and effect... there is no Causeless cause and no causeless effect. THerefore their cannot be an cause that bears no effect without a previous cause setting it in motion... ad infinitum.

Also another concept is fairly simple. In all deductable logic every space must contain a space. And that space must conatain a space. For example IF our universe is finite and is contained.. what conatains it? ANd Would whatever conatained our universe also contain a space?

This simple and toally unfallible logic dictates that Space is indeed infinite.

Also the argurment that is everything exists on an infinite plane then nothing could traverse it. That just calls in two different approaches. The first being the theory of Prediction or ANy event occurring simultaniously or all future events have already came to pass. That theory in of itself is baseless. It cannot keep a solid base if it were bolted down . It fails when brought through Scientific Method and Deductible logic... which in case u do not know Deduces Circumstance and Evidence to prove, to the closest feasible and logical conclusion.

The other is that the future does not exist but is occurring at an allencompassing rate. That cause and effect.. though reliant on eachother , never cease as long as things change. And as is , from infinity til now everything has been changing ...

I would like to find your input and debate logically through this. I wish to put an end to this ceaseless debate.

Ok, ur gonna have to put up with my ropey knowledge of science, but here goes

"As we all know , everything is based upon cause and effect... there is no Causeless cause and no causeless effect. THerefore their cannot be an cause that bears no effect without a previous cause setting it in motion... ad infinitum."

No, at the quantum level, things can... just happen. They used to believe that if u knew the position and velocity of every atom in the universe, u could predict the universe. Aside fromt he fact that there's more to it than just atoms, this wouldn[t be possible.


"Also another concept is fairly simple. In all deductable logic every space must contain a space."

Ok, I'm being picky here, but deductable, human logic in the macro enviroment and quantum physics don't always go hand in hand... so again, u can't rule out something simply based on deductable logic.

"This simple and toally unfallible logic dictates that Space is indeed infinite. "

As above

"Also the argurment that is everything exists on an infinite plane then nothing could traverse it. That just calls in two different approaches. The first being the theory of Prediction or ANy event occurring simultaniously or all future events have already came to pass. That theory in of itself is baseless. It cannot keep a solid base if it were bolted down . It fails when brought through Scientific Method and Deductible logic... which in case u do not know Deduces Circumstance and Evidence to prove, to the closest feasible and logical conclusion."

Unfortunaeley, when speculating the incomprehendable, pretty much everything is baseless, until we develop the means and understanding to explore such things.

"The other is that the future does not exist but is occurring at an allencompassing rate. That cause and effect.. though reliant on eachother , never cease as long as things change. And as is , from infinity til now everything has been changing ..."

I don't really understand what ur getting at

What ur essentially doing is picking apart a couple of theories about infinity, which unfortunatley isn;t enough to say with any conviction that the universe is finite. I could say "there's a theory that the world is a giant cube, but this simply cannot be, therefore the world is flat".

heh I'll let the regulars who know what they're on about take over

[edit on 1-5-2006 by john_bmth]

Originally posted by Tony_Poremba Also another concept is fairly simple. In all deductable logic every space must contain a space. And that space must conatain a space. For example IF our universe is finite and is contained.. what conatains it? ANd Would whatever conatained our universe also contain a space?

This simple and toally unfallible logic dictates that Space is indeed infinite.

If you are a little ant walking aroung a large apple, you can always go forward, without reaching the end (going around the apple), you will not be aware of what is above this apple.

Now, if you travel in space, always straight ahead, perhaps, the space warp around itself (like an odd shape potato). So indeed "it is NOT simple and unfaillible logic that dictate that space is indeed infinite"

So it can be infinite, but withing "nothingness" (le néant in French), because the Universe is a human concept (does not exist as such, as a groupement of thing, if there is no human being to add it up), it is the collection of everything there is, so if you add everything there is, you didn't exclude anything, therefore what is outside of that doesn't count (nothingness). I know it sound strange, but that the way it is.

No.... Quantum Physics merely state that certain conditions cause phenomenon in which matter or particles exhibit non-explainable behavior... ALL DUE TO CAUSE AND EFFECT. Read up on it.

Certain condition must be met for any quantum behavior... in that sense to take place. It occurs naturally at the sub atomic level Due to the fact the matter is there to produce the effect.... Nothing evades cause and effect.

If In fact Space in Like an apple.... What encomapsses space? More SPace? More of something... All SPace is contained in Space... And the space copntaining that space must also be encompassed in space.. LIke a glass holding water. A room holding the g;lass.. etc... It is most logically deductive and proves itself.


No, Scientific theory does not allow for "thing we have no means to explore" in the realm of the future having already occurred. That is why all governments scrapped that crap awhile ago. There is evdence suggesting that what is happening elsewhere can be observed by another person through ESP AS it is happening.


Also, for if u did not comprehend, As everything is based on cause and effect, THta means that Cause and effect is happeing endlessly into infinity At every moment we percieve and every moment that exists. Infinitly.


Also ..."Nothingness" equates to SPace.. as in taking up set dimensions of area and volume. IF nothing ness DID exist laws of physics would have matter moving very rapidly... in an outward direction to fill the viod. Too bad much of the matter in observance seems to be moving inwardly at an accelerating pace. Which makes the Discovery of Dark MAtter soo important.

[edit on 1-5-2006 by Tony_Poremba]

Originally posted by Tony_Poremba
As we all know , everything is based upon cause and effect... there is no Causeless cause and no causeless effect. THerefore their cannot be an cause that bears no effect without a previous cause setting it in motion... ad infinitum.

That particular assumption is based on the completely unproven notion of linear, single-direction time. When you go macro-cosmic or micro-cosmic, the standard notions of linear time don't necessarily apply. That's old, mechanical Newtonian thinking. It's quite possible for there to be an effect and then a cause way on down the line somewhere, or no cause at all. Energy moving in various forms through a variety of potentialities. Our little lizard/monkey brains have a hard time understanding it, though.

Once you give up the assumption of linear time, the answers start to come a lot easier.

Your energy has to go through states to produce the "Effect you speak of///.. Reagrdless of the Line of thought.. Everything must have a cause... Or no effect would ever be produced.. really simple. And yes it is simple.

And it IS proven that time is linear.. Only perception and the way matter reacts differs.. Again read up. The rest is mere speculation with no reproducable effects,,, or actually not the intial effect in the first place. More imaginative thinking than anything else.

[edit on 1-5-2006 by Tony_Poremba]

Originally posted by Tony_Poremba
Your energy has to go through states to produce the "Effect you speak of///.. Reagrdless of the Line of thought.. Everything must have a cause... Or no effect would ever be produced.. really simple. And yes it is simple.

And it IS proven that time is linear.. Only perception and the way matter reacts differs.. Again read up. The rest is mere speculation with no reproducable effects,,, or actually not the intial effect in the first place. More imaginative thinking than anything else.

[edit on 1-5-2006 by Tony_Poremba]

but as I said, at the quantum scale, stuff can jsut happen... WITHOUT any reason prior, due to (as mentioned above) time being non-linear

There are infinities and then there are infinities.

A point on an infinite line doesn't create a half of an infinity, does it? Or does it create two separate infinities?

Heh.



[edit on 1-5-2006 by Enkidu]

Actually... What u speak of is false... Look up the only experiments that conclude Quantum Physics. THey require definite material and a definite stae of Energy and or particles. Just cause something is spontaneous and Pops out of nowhere does not make it uncausal. We popped out of nowhere... is that out of range of cause and effect? Scientist have already proven that you need certain Elements and certain environments to use and reproduce any and ALL Quantum physics experiments and equations.

What is proven and what is reproducable is logical.. not some "ALiens" or "Roswell" ideology.

ACtually ... Half an Infinity cannot exist... However I may be inclined to agree two infinties... IN different states can exist. All reliant on Cause and effect of course.


Drawing a dot on an infinite line wouldn't creat two infinties... it would create a finite dot on an infinite line in an infinite space.

Originally posted by Tony_Poremba
ACtually ... Half an Infinity cannot exist... However I may be inclined to agree two infinties... IN different states can exist. All reliant on Cause and effect of course.


Drawing a dot on an infinite line wouldn't creat two infinties... it would create a finite dot on an infinite line in an infinite space.

but as I mentioned earlier... picking apart a couple of theories does not constitute a rigorous and thourourgh investigation into the matter. As I mentioned earlier, and using ur logic I could say "there's a theory that the world is a giant cube, but this simply cannot be, therefore the world is flat".

John Ummm.... u made no sense. Sorry.

[edit on 1-5-2006 by Tony_Poremba]

Originally posted by Tony_Poremba
Ummm.... u made no sense. Sorry.

ur drawing conclusions based on picking apart a few arguements. This has the scientific and logical rigour of saying "there's a theory that the world is a giant cube, but this simply cannot be, therefore the world is flat".

I'm sorry, I don't think I could possibly articulate myself any further

Actuall that claim has no basis.... I am arguing your theories with pure, proven logic. Not comeing to hair brained conclusions based on nothingness as your example asserts.

Originally posted by Tony_Poremba
Actuall that claim has no basis.... I am arguing your theories with pure, proven logic. Not comeing to hair brained conclusions based on nothingness as your example asserts.

"And it IS proven that time is linear.. Only perception and the way matter reacts differs.. Again read up. The rest is mere speculation with no reproducable effects,,, or actually not the intial effect in the first place. More imaginative thinking than anything else."

and how do u fit spacetime into the whole thing? this can be traversed in any direction, in fact some particles like photons do it on a regular basis

"The theory of relativity says that time cannot be treated absolutely separately from space, only in one observer's relative view. So space and time together describe a four dimensional universe."

Google Web Defitiions

EDIT: I'm not saying that I disagree with the notion of infinity, rather disagreeing with some of the arguements u make

[edit on 1-5-2006 by john_bmth]

They do it based on cause and effect... As does relativity.

Originally posted by Tony_Poremba
They do it based on cause and effect... As does relativity.

how can time be linear if it can be traversed? and how does cause + effect come into it when the cause is in the future annd the effect has just happened? like with time-travelling particles?

PArticles from the past.. welcome to the world.

It's interesting to see that almost everyone who tries to attack and explain ideas such as infinitum, tries to do so with an intellect that simply isn't made to understand anything except what it can't deduce, break down, categorize, and in all reality, make finite. The very notion of understanding infinitum is in itself a contradiction, in that labeling something in effect makes it finite. We as individual beings, as individual intellects prove that this "universe" in which we "live" is in fact finite, otherwise there would be no separation of anything. Like it was said above, "a dot on an infinite line would be an infinite dot", likewise, anything in an infinite space would in fact be itself infinite. However for the ability of the human conscientiousness to comprehend something, it must be (or have) a given amount. In truth, and concept, infinitum is a viable possibility, however in the "physical" reality our conscientiousness inhabits, infinitum is not a provable, or practical theory. Proving something to exist beyond your ability to comprehend is not possible, therefore proving something exists beyond the "universe" (which is defined as "the totality of all things that exist") is in fact impossible. But if you feel the need, by all means, prove me wrong... ( I have more things i could use as evidence to support this point of view, but its bedtime now...)