Oh How Sweet It is! To be Rich, a Republican and White! Hmm?

I thought this post was about Rush limbaugh?

By-the-way, rushs' show has been on the radio for 17 or 18 years.

He is number 2.

No matter what anyone thinks of the man or what he's accused of, He's still number 2 --- (punn intended)

Originally posted by donwhite
Yesterday, I heard a person from Bolivia interviewed, and he said the US has only 5,000 visas a year available to common or unskilled laborers. Worldwide. Yet, there are 500,000 visas - he said - available to person of wealth or professionally trained. For a poor person, undereducated, and not politically connected, the chance of a visa is equal to winning the lottery.

What's your point? Is it wrong for the US to want immigrants that will be more likely to contribute to society, and to reject those most likely to be a burden on society?

Have you ever tried to emigrate to Australia? Take a look at their immigration standards sometime.

I accuse any white person born in America before 1954 as proof prima facie of prejudice. Prove to me you are not.

You can "accuse" all you want, your statement is nothing but ignorant.

And why should anyone have to prove to you that they are not racist?

Then he added, there was one room with a black guy in it, if I wanted to avoid double bunking. I took it. Living with him for the next 10 months taught me a lot about race in the Air Force. None of it good. The next 40 years have only confirmed what I learned then. And you know the rest, Pro.

What is most tellingly confirmed is that you are still laboring under the same misconceptions that you were 40 years ago. Your life has merely been an affirmation of what you want to see. You've looked at life through blinders, instead of opening your eyes to the good around you. Your experience is equivalent to that of a person who fancies themself an expert on race relations because they once dated a person of color.

originally posted by Not Clever
There's a school of thought that says racism is a power thing. It's not just about the dislike, it's about the power and ability to oppress based on race. In that context, they argue, it is impossible for the subjects of the oppression to be racist because they cannot in turn, oppress their oppressors.

So, I can hate a person because of the color of their skin, their physical characteristics, the sound of their speech, and everything else, but I'm not a racist because I am powerless to oppress them? And you believe that?:shk:

You should've just said oppression is a power thing. That might fly.


[edit on 2-5-2006 by jsobecky]

posted by jsobecky: “What's your point? Is it wrong for the US to want immigrants that will be more likely to contribute to society and to reject those most likely to be a burden on society? Have you ever tried to emigrate to Australia? Take a look at their immigration standards sometime. [Edited by Don W]

We are assuming too much. First, that anyone can tell who is or is not likely to make a positive contribution. It is also impossible to predict who will become a burden on society. We pretend to be able to make these life force decisions because we love to self-delude. CBS showed just such a demonstration on last Sunday’s 60 Minutes. While searching the archives they found a 1985 tape with Dan Rather making predictions what the next 15 years would bring. He made 10 predictions and every one was wrong. 100%! Not one predication had come true.

If we’d spend more time figuring how to help a person who has demonstrated real personal ambition to better himself, and less time worrying what is going to happen in 2020, we’d come a darn sight closer to have a good result in 2006.

You can "accuse" all you want, your statement is nothing but ignorant . . why should anyone have to prove to you that they are not racist? What is most tellingly is you are still laboring under the same misconceptions that you were 40 years ago. Your life has merely been an affirmation of what you want to see. You've looked at life through blinders .

You can’t fix it if you don’t know it is broke. You can’t treat it if you don’t admit you are sick. Racism is like cancer, it is either spreading or it is treated into remission. Like acne, racism may be over, but the scars will remain. Physically and psychologically.

instead of opening your eyes to the good around you.

Is that like a delusional POV? As they say, denial is not a river in Egypt.

posted by Not Clever: “There's a school of thought that says racism is a power thing. It's about the power and ability to oppress based on race. It is impossible for the subjects of the oppression to be racist because they cannot in turn, oppress their oppressors.

That is an accurate description of one important facet of racism. This is why I have said it is only whites that can be actively racists. Blacks do not deny loan applications because I’m white. Blacks to not shuffle me to the less desirable rooms when I check into a hotel. Racial distinctions are so deep in America I wonder if we can ever be like other mixed race countries where race plays no part?

[edit on 5/2/2006 by donwhite]

Originally posted by NotClever
There's a school of thought that says racism is a power thing. It's not just about the dislike, it's about the power and ability to oppress based on race. In that context, they argue, it is impossible for the subjects of the oppression to be racist because they cannot in turn, oppress their oppressors.

That is defiantly one type of racism. But racism isn't about power to all racists. Some people just plain don't like folks that are different from them. The idea that the oppressed cannot be racist because they have no power is absurd. Hate is a powerful emotion that all are capable of. Racism is sometimes sickeningly simple, but it means different things to different people. I think your example fits the rich elites very well, but there are plenty of poor white trash racist here in Tennessee. They don't have power over anyone, but that doesn't keep them from hating non-whites.

Originally posted by jsobecky
So, I can hate a person because of the color of their skin, their physical characteristics, the sound of their speech, and everything else, but I'm not a racist because I am powerless to oppress them? And you believe that?

You apparently jumped right from reading my description of a concept to assuming I believed it. I don't know if its completely true. Pretty darn sure its not completely false. It is another part of a puzzle that shouldn't be ignored or automatically discounted because it doesn't fit with a pre-conceived world view. I view it as another page in the mental book I have on this issue.

Originally posted by donwhite
Blacks do not deny loan applications because I’m white. Blacks do not shuffle me to the less desirable rooms when I check into a hotel. Edited by NotClever

Precisely. Neighborhoods aren't redlined to me because I'm white.

Originally posted by yadboy
I think your example fits the rich elites very well, but there are plenty of poor white trash racist here in Tennessee. They don't have power over anyone, but that doesn't keep them from hating non-whites.

Simply because of economics. That poor white trash racist inherits a little money from Granpappy, he can upgrade his home in any neighborhood he can afford. An African-American in the same situation will more than likely be limited in choice of neighborhoods. donwhite's quoted statement above applies here also.

Originally posted by donwhite
We are assuming too much. First, that anyone can tell who is or is not likely to make a positive contribution. It is also impossible to predict who will become a burden on society. We pretend to be able to make these life force decisions because we love to self-delude. CBS showed just such a demonstration on last Sunday’s 60 Minutes. While searching the archives they found a 1985 tape with Dan Rather making predictions what the next 15 years would bring. He made 10 predictions and every one was wrong. 100%! Not one predication had come true.

Past performance is a good indicator of future performance. I'll take the person that has an medical degree from Harvard; you take the guy from the barrio. I'll bet my guy pays his way faster than yours does.

As far as Dan Rather, that's easily explained. He's a liberal!

If we’d spend more time figuring how to help a person who has demonstrated real personal ambition to better himself, and less time worrying what is going to happen in 2020, we’d come a darn sight closer to have a good result in 2006.

You just strengthened my position.

You can’t fix it if you don’t know it is broke. You can’t treat it if you don’t admit you are sick. Racism is like cancer, it is either spreading or it is treated into remission. Like acne, racism may be over, but the scars will remain. Physically and psychologically.

Nice try. You want to lay a guilt trip on innocent people and make them apologize for succeeding. That's works one time. Then they get tired of hearing you mislabel them and they won't even answer the door the next time you come begging.

instead of opening your eyes to the good around you.

Is that like a delusional POV? As they say, denial is not a river in Egypt.

Hey you're the one who just got done saying that we have to help people!

And if you live in a world where no good exists, and you call it delusional, well I feel sorry for those around you. Especially your kids.

Originally posted by NotClever

Originally posted by jsobecky
So, I can hate a person because of the color of their skin, their physical characteristics, the sound of their speech, and everything else, but I'm not a racist because I am powerless to oppress them? And you believe that?

You apparently jumped right from reading my description of a concept to assuming I believed it. I don't know if its completely true. Pretty darn sure its not completely false. It is another part of a puzzle that shouldn't be ignored or automatically discounted because it doesn't fit with a pre-conceived world view. I view it as another page in the mental book I have on this issue.

Your mental book only has words on the odd pages. You are actively seeking any and all data that proves that all whites are racist, and the racist black man hasn't been born yet.

You want to be part of the"Guilt Brigade" being peddled here, go ahead. You're only fooling yourself.

Originally posted by jsobecky
Your mental book only has words on the odd pages. You are actively seeking any and all data that proves that all whites are racist, and the racist black man hasn't been born yet.

You want to be part of the"Guilt Brigade" being peddled here, go ahead. You're only fooling yourself.

I am trying very hard not to give into the urge to characterize your response as judgemental, assumptive tripe. Well....I will submit that it is completely an assumption.

Oh well, your view of the world and the way things are is complete and unchangeable. That's fine. Have a nice day.

NC

Originally posted by NotClever

Originally posted by yadboy
I think your example fits the rich elites very well, but there are plenty of poor white trash racist here in Tennessee. They don't have power over anyone, but that doesn't keep them from hating non-whites.

Simply because of economics. That poor white trash racist inherits a little money from Granpappy, he can upgrade his home in any neighborhood he can afford. An African-American in the same situation will more than likely be limited in choice of neighborhoods. donwhite's quoted statement above applies here also.

Oh, so all poor black people are poor because they're black, and poor whites are poor because of economics? Your painting all people with a single brush, the world just isn't like that. You assume all blacks are kept down because they are black, and any white trash with money would be welcome anywhere. That's a pretty bold assumption. You can put a redneck in a $1000 suit, he's still a redneck and will be treated no better because he's got some cash after "Grandpappy" kicks the bucket. An uneducated fool with money is still a fool.

Sometimes a racist simply hates other because they are different, not every racist is a economic snob. In my experience those with the money (money=power) don't care much for people they see as below them, regardless of skin color. Those people like anyone who has the right education and their favorite color is green.

Originally posted by yadboy
Oh, so all poor black people are poor because they're black, and poor whites are poor because of economics? Your painting all people with a single brush, the world just isn't like that. You assume all blacks are kept down because they are black, and any white trash with money would be welcome anywhere.

Right, please refer to my previous post in response to jsobecky. Have a nice day.

NC

The Race Is On

Whenever there's a disagreement about a definition, I like to link to reference sources for guidance. It's not a substitute for opinions or discussion, but it can often help with these sorts of things.

From Dictionary.com:

rac·ism
n.

1. The belief that race accounts for differences in human character or ability and that a particular race is superior to others.
2. Discrimination or prejudice based on race.

From Wikipedia.org:

Racism refers to a belief system that humans can be separated into various groups based on physical attributes and that these groupings determine cultural or individual achievement. This can lead to prejudice against individuals based on a perceived or ascribed "race". This racist outlook in assuming that the human species can be meaningfully divided into races, often breeds ignorance, fear and hostility toward people of other races. Racism often includes the belief that people of different races differ in aptitudes and characteristics. Some individuals who use this concept of racial categories, believe that different races can be placed on a ranked, hierarchical, scale. The term race plus the suffix ism added refers to a "meme" that the human species can be divided into various groups based on physical characteristics such as skin color and hair color, as well as cultural differences. By definition one who practices racism is known as a racist.

Most racists don't think of themselves as racists, just "right".

On AboveTopSecret.com, and even here on the notorious mud-slinging Politics.AboveTopSecret.com, we try to avoid arguments consisting of finger-pointing and ad hominem attacks, because they are always off-topic and degrade the overall tone of the discussion.

I don't want to encourage any such thing by posting these definitions here, and want to remind my fellow members that discussion of one another is off-topic, and contrary to the terms and conditions we all agree to honor by posting here.

Rather, I invite all ATSers to look in the mirror and decide for themselves if these definitions apply to them.

Honest self-examination can go a long way toward mutual understanding.

I think I can end this thread with a nice quote from Aerosmith. This goes out to all those who believe only whites are racist and I think itll point out the error in your thinking here.

If you can judge a wise man by the color of his skin, then mister youre a better man than I.

Honestly, I think that should end this thread right there. When in doubt turn to RocknRoll.

Don, I've been reading your posts for a while now and in general I really like what you have to say. I am disappointed, though, that you think only white people can be racist. Anyone can be racist. We all get lazy about how we react to people. There's an unconscious racism that can kick in that can determine how you react to people - am I going to get mugged by this guy? for example. Although some of my closest friends in the world are people of a different skin colour to my own, I hold my hand up as having this kind of unconscious/semi-conscious stuff going on.

I've also been in situations where my own skin colour got me into trouble. I was in NY and saw some people preaching. I can't remember what they were called, but they were dressed rather oddly, with headscarves and print robes, and their schtick was like a Jewish-slanted Nation of Islam thing - they were using the Bible to preach race hate.

I was watching them in some fascination, with a half-smile on my face, and the guy preaching picks me out of the crowd and starts bleating about how I was an oppressor and how I was laughing at the plight of the black man. Well, I'm afraid I don't take too kindly to that kind of thing, so I responded. I noticed that he had a guy videoing the whole thing, so I turned to the camera, and started saying that the preacher had just made a whole bunch of racist assumptions about me. The chief of which was that I was an oppressor from a line of oppressors. Wrong! My folks were Irish. We never had any truck with the slave trade. White people oppressed my ancestors and stole the food from their tables: Ireland was exporting potatoes to England during the potato famine, for example. Furthermore, this guy (I pointed at the preacher) is using the Bible to preach hatred. Don't do it, I said, don't follow a racist demagogue who preaches hatred. I got off some good ones and they left me alone.

Now, you can argue that racism is all about power and having the power to oppress. Are you saying that there are no situations in which black people can do that and make someone's life miserable? It's a sad fact, but here in the UK there is real antipathy between black people and what we call (thanks to a nomenclature that is derived from our colonial past) Asians.

And I know of one example of a situation in which black people do hold some power and use it against whites. I'm a musician, and one of my friends, a phenomenally talented tenor player, went to NY, one of the centres of Jazz, to hang out and learn. He is one of the nicest, sweetest people I know and he definitely encountered situations where he was discriminated against, which went way over the "white guy with a horn, let's move the tempo up and make him look stupid" thing. Some places would close ranks, shut out the outsiders, he was asked to leave one or two places. Now it's not like he was beaten up or anything, but music should be something that brings people together, not keeps them apart.

So Don, I'd appreciate it if you'd consider the idea that black people can be racists too. I don't, myself, consider it to be simply a question of power relations.

Originally posted by NotClever

Originally posted by yadboy
Oh, so all poor black people are poor because they're black, and poor whites are poor because of economics? Your painting all people with a single brush, the world just isn't like that. You assume all blacks are kept down because they are black, and any white trash with money would be welcome anywhere.

Right, please refer to my previous post in response to jsobecky. Have a nice day.

NC

Well I guess your username is quite telling... You must be one of those people who is so ashamed of the white racists in this country that you choose to think that all white people "have it good" and are closet racists, and all non-whites are "kept down by the man" and don't have a racist bone in their bodies. It's sad really. The worst kind of stereotyping.

It's a shame that racism still exists in this world, but it has become a crutch for some. A way to place narrow-minded definitions on people so you don't have to think about how complex racism really is.

[edit on 5/4/2006 by yadboy]

Originally posted by me
There's a school of thought that says racism is a power thing. It's not just about the dislike, it's about the power and ability to oppress based on race. In that context, they argue, it is impossible for the subjects of the oppression to be racist because they cannot in turn, oppress their oppressors.

That is why racism is ugly. It's not about simple hate...it's also the power to be ugly and oppressive. Individual African Americans can dislike whites 'till the cows come home, but it is powerless.

READ THIS. It is offered as an opinion and speculation! It is a part of the process in an open dialogue that thinking people use to develop stronger positions and views. It does not warrant the gross assumptions and ignorant trashing of anyone's character.

There are two posters here whose race, gender, ethnicity, or age, I do not know. I do know based on your posts....I do not like you.

NC

Originally posted by NotClever

Originally posted by me
There's a school of thought that says racism is a power thing. It's not just about the dislike, it's about the power and ability to oppress based on race. In that context, they argue, it is impossible for the subjects of the oppression to be racist because they cannot in turn, oppress their oppressors.

That is why racism is ugly. It's not about simple hate...it's also the power to be ugly and oppressive. Individual African Americans can dislike whites 'till the cows come home, but it is powerless.

READ THIS. It is offered as an opinion and speculation! It is a part of the process in an open dialogue that thinking people use to develop stronger positions and views. It does not warrant the gross assumptions and ignorant trashing of anyone's character.

There are two posters here whose race, gender, ethnicity, or age, I do not know. I do know based on your posts....I do not like you.

NC

I could really care less what you think of me, your opinion of my character has absolutly no effect on me. If you can't take a little jab on these boards (with a screenname like that, you're begging for it), you might want to think about finding another place to spend your time.

I have every right to disagree with your assumptions and punch your theories full of holes, that's what happens when you base your theories on stereotypes and misconceptions.

P.S. - If I were serious about your username, I would not have included the , learn to lighten up a little.

[edit on 5/4/2006 by yadboy]

Originally posted by jsobecky
Your mental book only has words on the odd pages. You are actively seeking any and all data that proves that all whites are racist, and the racist black man hasn't been born yet.

You want to be part of the"Guilt Brigade" being peddled here, go ahead. You're only fooling yourself.

Originally posted by yadboy
Your painting all people with a single brush, the world just isn't like that. You assume all blacks are kept down because they are black, and any white trash with money would be welcome anywhere....and....
Well I guess your username is quite telling... You must be one of those people who is so ashamed of the white racists in this country that you choose to think that all white people "have it good" and are closet racists, and all non-whites are "kept down by the man" and don't have a racist bone in their bodies. It's sad really. The worst kind of stereotyping.....and....
I could really care less what you think of me, your opinion of my character has absolutly no effect on me. If you can't take a little jab on these boards (with a screenname like that, you're begging for it), you might want to think about finding another place to spend your time.....and....
I have every right to disagree with your assumptions and punch your theories full of holes, that's what happens when you base your theories on stereotypes and misconceptions.

P.S. - If I were serious about your username, I would not have included the

, learn to lighten up a little.

Sorry, not seeing any theories getting punched full of holes. What I am seeing are characteristics being attributed to my online persona. Mostly I'm seeing a lot of loud rhetoric with no real content.

NC

Originally posted by NotClever

Originally posted by jsobecky
Your mental book only has words on the odd pages. You are actively seeking any and all data that proves that all whites are racist, and the racist black man hasn't been born yet.

You want to be part of the"Guilt Brigade" being peddled here, go ahead. You're only fooling yourself.

Originally posted by yadboy
Your painting all people with a single brush, the world just isn't like that. You assume all blacks are kept down because they are black, and any white trash with money would be welcome anywhere....and....
Well I guess your username is quite telling... You must be one of those people who is so ashamed of the white racists in this country that you choose to think that all white people "have it good" and are closet racists, and all non-whites are "kept down by the man" and don't have a racist bone in their bodies. It's sad really. The worst kind of stereotyping.....and....
I could really care less what you think of me, your opinion of my character has absolutly no effect on me. If you can't take a little jab on these boards (with a screenname like that, you're begging for it), you might want to think about finding another place to spend your time.....and....
I have every right to disagree with your assumptions and punch your theories full of holes, that's what happens when you base your theories on stereotypes and misconceptions.

P.S. - If I were serious about your username, I would not have included the

, learn to lighten up a little.

Sorry, not seeing any theories getting punched full of holes. What I am seeing are characteristics being attributed to my online persona. Mostly I'm seeing a lot of loud rhetoric with no real content.

NC

As I said before, lighten up. I have never seen anyone so pissy from one little joke in my entire life. Nice job of killing this thread. Like to bold text much?

R.I.P. The Topic?

*Ahem*

Unless one of you is Rush Limbaugh, all this personal commentary is off-topic.

Yes this is PTS, yes this is an emotional topic and yes a little mud-slinging now and then never hurt no one, but nonetheless, there is a topic we should be sticking to and it's not what we think of each other.

Please don't ignore my requests to stay on topic. :shk:




Also, please try to keep the quotes under control.

Look, guys, we've all got a bit overheated on this topic. We all have our own points of view, but the mods will lock this topic down real quick if we don't stop with the sniping.

Then what happens? We troll other threads and snipe some more until admin has no choice but to ban somebody. And then who do we take our bitches out on? The lady in your life?

Majic is one of the most laid-back people I've ever read. If we're pissing him off, then we're skating on thin ice.

Be cool.

Mods, give me the customary penalty for skirting the profanity watchers.






(Mod edit: Actually, there's no need to circumvent the censors for those words, so I fixed them. Sorry, no warning for that. --Majic)

[edit on 5/4/2006 by Majic]