Do The Research People!

Recently, I posted a thread challenging skeptics to prove there ISN'T a NWO.

www.abovetopsecret.com...'

This was done in response to a thread challenging people to prove there IS a NWO.

www.abovetopsecret.com...

I have gotten alot of repsonses (both pro and con) to my initial thread.

I appreciate all of them and always enjoy a lively debate.

HOWEVER...one of the things I've noticed on both these threads is that the people who don't think the NWO exists aren't doing any research to find out whether it does or not.

On the thread to prove it DOES, there were literally hundreds of responses on it with many useful links to prove the case for the NWO. But the guy who initiated it (mrJenka) evidently did not bother to read any of them.

To those who do believe in a NWO, you know there's a lot to it and if you want to find the truth of the matter, you sometimes have to dig deep for it. The NWO can be a VERY confusing subject as there is often conflicting information, and you have to break down the mental walls people have built up their whole life. Throw someone like David Icke and his repitile aliens into the mix, and it complicates it even more.

If someone REALLY WANTS TO KNOW what's going on, I'll do what I can to help, but it seems like I'm spending more time posting links and refering people to stuff I said earlier in the thread, than I am debating the finer points of what's going on.

Admittedly, on THIS PATICULAR thread I probably brought that one on myself as I did challenge people to prove there ISN'T a NWO, but hopefully you get the jist of the idea.

If you want to debate that's fine. If we don't agree on something, that's fine too. But please DO THE RESEARCH BEFORE YOU SAY THE NWO DOESN'T EXIST.

Also, ignorant comments by people who don't know what they're talking about probably doesn't do wonders for guests on this site who are honestly looking to educate themselves.

I do not consider myself to be an "expert on the matter" by any means, but I do think I'm fairly well read on the subject.

Also, a mistake was pointed out to me that I incorrectly translated the seal on the back of the dollar bill. My mistake. I was wrong about that translation, but that one mistake does not negate everything I've posted.

So please...if you want to debate the NWO, at least do A LITTLE research on the subject BEFORE coming into the debate, so I and others like me, don't have to start from scratch with every skeptic that comes along.

As a suggestion to the moderators of this site (don't know if this is in the right place) A "New to the New World Order?" link or "Conspiracy 101" might be something to consider. Don't know if there's a link to that or not


A good place for newbies and skeptics alike is the vampire killers 2000 booklet. While it's a bit outdated, it does lay down the basic foundations for the NWO, and it isn't very long. You can read it in it's entirety for free here.

www.lawfulpath.com...


[edit on 28-4-2006 by Chezz]

Mod Edit: All Caps Title – Please Review This Link.

[edit on 28/4/2006 by Umbrax]

Good point. Personally, I think it's about half and half. I believe we're in the process of some of the rich and powerful to centeralize some of their power collectively, and the public of many different groups consistantly asking questions about policies. From special interests to us. But to study the NWO, here are some good websites to start.

www.congress.gov and (one someone else posted earlier this year)
www.findlaw.com.

Hope that helps us all.

Originally posted by Chezz

Also, a mistake was pointed out to me that I incorrectly translated the seal on the back of the dollar bill. My mistake. I was wrong about that translation, but that one mistake does not negate everything I've posted.

Your translation? it's odd that so many others made the exact same "mistake."

What you have shown so far is not research, all you are doing is googling for information to back up what you already think.

For example your David Rockefeller's memoirs link. How do you know for surethat is what Mr Rockefeller said if you haven't read his book? What if the next paragraph states he was joking about the last one? You can't know that unless you have read the book in question can you?

Personally I don't mind theories if you can show some sort of suppporting evedance as to how you came up with them. But if your theories are formed by just reading some website... well I will mock you.

Honestly I'm exactly the type of person who you could get to come over to your side.

I don't trust big Biz (One of the reasons I have used Linux for the last 7 years)
I think the government tends to take away our personal freedoms rather than protect them. And I do get a bit nervous when I see the government acting like big brother.

So as you can see I'm not that far from being a believer in the NWO.

[edit on 4/28/2006 by Cug]

Originally posted by Chezz
So please...if you want to debate the NWO, at least do A LITTLE research on the subject BEFORE coming into the debate, so I and others like me, don't have to start from scratch with every skeptic that comes along.

What good does it do to research a lot of wild-eyed ranting from a load of wackjobs and paranoid schizophrenics? Just so we can try to debate the merits or lack thereof of some ridiculous detail that was probably fabricated out of whole cloth to begin with?

I think we all pretty much agree that world leaders of all kinds exchange ideas and plans that have to do with the way they think the world should be run. Yes, they cooperate and do business with each other. They see each other at the same parties. Why? Because that's their social environment. If you manage to earn a few billion dollars, you get to be part of that club, too.

But to lump it together under the "NWO" banner says a lot more about the people doing the lumping than the supposed members of this "conspiracy." NWO opponents tend to be personal or social failures who like to blame those failures on somebody else, some shadowy organization of characters of a different ethnic or religious background who have it out for everybody else.

For myself, if there really was such a thing as an "NWO," I'd want somebody to tell me how I can become part of it. It sure doesn't sound like I can beat 'em, so I might as well join 'em!

Cug-again if you go back to the other threads that have been posted (especially the one where the guy wants people to prove to him a NWO exists) you will find many useful and helpful links.

As far as Rockefeller and his book, no I haven't personally read the book, but if you google the words "Rockefeller memoirs guilty proud" you will get 37,900 hits.
To me, that's pretty compelling. When you get all those people saying essentially the same thing, there's probably something to that.

I apologize about the dollar bill thing. I should have known better. One of the things in discussions like this is that you have to have your facts straight. Because if you're wrong about one little thing, that's what people will call you on. I openly admitted I was wrong. I didn't try to cover it up, and hopefully that goes a little way with you as far as my credibility is concerned. I was wrong and I admitted it.

As far as your not trusting government and thinking they are taking away our freedoms rather than protecting them, well that's pretty much all I'm saying too. I'm just saying that it's a concentrated effort and it didn't just "happen" by accident.

I gave you the link to go buy the book if you want to. But as far as books go, whithout me buying it and physically shipping it to you, or you buying it yourself, how can you say he didn't say that?
As I said I believe the quote is on page 405.

Also, I know I've posted alot of links in response to our posts. Did you read any of them? How about the Vampire Killers 2000? Did you look at that? It doesn't sound like you need a whole lot of convincing. There ARE plenty of useful links provided on the two threads I had previously mentioned and all across this site.

Again, start with vampire killers 2000. There's a link where you can read the whole thing at the bottom of my last post. Start with that, READ IT, it's not that long (maybe 45 minutes to an hour) and let's take it from there.

I have posted this link before, but here it is again.

www.mega.nu:8080...

This is an ENTIRE BOOK on the Rockefeller family, every word, start to finish for those who care to read it. I have.

This is research and not a "google" to find stuff I already thought.

Here is another good link.

This is an ENTIRE BOOK on the bloodlines of the illuminati, every word start to finish for those who care to read it. I have.

This is research and not a "google" to find stuff I already thought.

www.thewatcherfiles.com...

Here's another link

Report from Iron Mountain. This is the whole book. I am aware that the government says this paticular book is a hoax, but if you don't read it, how can you say. And besides, what would you expect the governmemt to say.
I've read the whole thing all the way through.

www.theforbiddenknowledge.com...

Originally posted by Chezz
Recently, I posted a thread challenging skeptics to prove there ISN'T a NWO.

www.abovetopsecret.com...'

This was done in response to a thread challenging people to prove there IS a NWO.

www.abovetopsecret.com...

I have gotten alot of repsonses (both pro and con) to my initial thread.

I appreciate all of them and always enjoy a lively debate.

HOWEVER...one of the things I've noticed on both these threads is that the people who don't think the NWO exists aren't doing any research to find out whether it does or not.

www.lawfulpath.com...


[edit on 28-4-2006 by Chezz]

Mod Edit: All Caps Title – Please Review This Link.

[edit on 28/4/2006 by Umbrax]

you don't have to prove anything when you are shilling for the man... what the man says is the truth we are SUPPOSED to believe. Quite a problem isn't it when the system is the crook and it doesn't have to answer to anyone and we have all these people bending over backwards to defend it at any cost since they are likely on the payroll somehow.

Then there is the 'suspension of disbelief' crowd which cannot tolerate difficult and radical truths that 'go outside the box.' You have to take into consideration the fragile state of their existance and how perilious it is and their strong efforts to protect it.

Think of the 'Matrix films' and then you will get an idea of what you are up against here.

You said it man.

Then there is the 'suspension of disbelief' crowd which cannot tolerate difficult and radical truths that 'go outside the box.' You have to take into consideration the fragile state of their existance and how perilious it is and their strong efforts to protect it.

Think of the 'Matrix films' and then you will get an idea of what you are up against here.

When I initially started the thread, I guess I had no idea of what I was getting myself into. I only started it to refute what the other guy was saying on his "prove to me there's a NWO" thread.

To me the NWO is as clear as the sun rising and setting, but I guess that's not the case with everyone. Anyway I appreciate the props.

When performing research, it is just as important to find material that discredits your theory as it is to find information that validates it. If nothing else, it gives you an idea of where people will attack you claims. But the up side is that you may learn something new or even change an opinion. Do not fear change. And ALWAYS question everything, including your own ideals.

Originally posted by Chezz
Again, start with vampire killers 2000. There's a link where you can read the whole thing at the bottom of my last post. Start with that, READ IT, it's not that long (maybe 45 minutes to an hour) and let's take it from there.

You don't seem to be getting what I'm talking about. Again you are not doing what you want others to do. You are not doing any research! You are just posting links to other peoples research!

As far as Rockefeller and his book, no I haven't personally read the book, but if you google the words "Rockefeller memoirs guilty proud" you will get 37,900 hits.

sure do, if you google Announcing the birth of the New Order of the World you get 3,630,000 hits. and we both know now that's not true.

Anyway back to the vamp thing.

If you want me to read it. (keep in mind I have a 2 foot tall stack of books on my desk that I want to read) you need to do more than say "read it it explains everything" you need to tell me why you think it's worth reading. Why it's compelling, why it's true, etc... I know you don't like it but extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.

My first question is where did you get quotes like this?

www.lawfulpath.com...
MAYER AMSCHEL BAUER, (alias Rothschild/Head Bloodsucker) The Godfather of the Rothschild Banking Cartel of Europe stated, "Give me control of a nation's money and I care not who makes the laws."

Head bloodsucker... That's the type of thing that makes me lose respect for something right away.

Originally posted by Cug

www.lawfulpath.com...
MAYER AMSCHEL BAUER, (alias Rothschild/Head Bloodsucker) The Godfather of the Rothschild Banking Cartel of Europe stated, "Give me control of a nation's money and I care not who makes the laws."

Head bloodsucker... That's the type of thing that makes me lose respect for something right away.

Uh what part of that don't you agree with? When one person has the desire and does whatever it takes to control everyone else in the world... some might even call that person the anti-christ and I would find it difficult to disagree with them.

Resorting to namecalling is a sign of not having anything of value to say.

You might not have a problem with it, I do.

Admittedly, the vampire killers are abit eccentric, plus the info is outdated.
I figured that you would say something about the quotes saying something to the effect of "How do you know he said that?" Just wasn't sure about which quote it would be.

Let me ask you something. What, in your mind, would be "research?"
I've pointed you to all kinds of links, even three ENTIRE BOOKS, but you keep coming back saying "That's not research."

Again, without physically buying the books, the internet is all we have. But even if we did buy the books, you could still say "How do you know he said that?" Whatever it may be.

I would refer you the presidential executive orders, but you would come back saying it doesn't prove anything.

You read my other post in the "illuminati question" where I said "The evidence of the NWO's presence is stronger than the proof of their absence." and I stand by that.

Another thing I can think of is some of the VIDEO quotes made by various people (politicians) about the NWO. I have a slow connection, so I personally can't stream them, but if you like I'll see if I can't find some.

You seem like a smart guy/gal? And I don't think you're trying to flame me, but I'm sort getting the impression that no matter what I say or give you to read, you'll come back saying "That's not proof." If that's the case then we'll have to agree to disagree.

One of the things the guy in the Matrix said (Laurance Fishburne's charcter) I forget his name said something to the effect of "My belief system doesn't require you to believe the same thing I do." Or something like that.

Keep in mind also, that the initial post that promted our dialouge wasn't that I prove the NWO does exist, but rather you proving it doesn't.

So i'll refer back to the original question. If there isn't a conspiracy to rule the world (NWO) why isn't there? Through your own research, can you prove to me there isn't one? I hope you can and that I'm wrong about the whole NWO thing, believe me. But I don't think you can.

I've read MANY, MANY REAL Books about the NWO, secret societies, the federal reserve, Council on Foreign Relations, Phrophesy, etc. (And I mean REAL BOOKS not online stuff) Isn't that research? To me, it doesn't sound like you're too far off anyway. Look at the Patriot Act, look at the gun control laws, look at the drug laws. Do laws like that protect our freedoms? Look at all the surveilence cameras sprouting up.

Don't know if you saw or not so here it is again. This is from the vampire killers.

HAVE THEY REACHED THEIR GOALS?

COMMUNIST RULES FOR REVOLUTION (Captured at Dusseldorf in May 1919 by Allied Forces)


Corrupt the young; get them away from religion. Get them interested in sex. Make them superficial; destroy their ruggedness.

By specious argument cause the breakdown of old moral virtues; honesty, sobriety, continence, faith in the pledged word, ruggedness.

Encourage civil disorders and foster a lenient and soft attitude on the part of government toward such disorders. (L.A. riots were just a coincidence? ... Of course!)

Divide the people into hostile groups by constantly harping on controversial matters of no importance. (Racial differences?)

Get people's minds off their government by focusing their attention on athletics, sexy books, plays, and other trivialities.

Get control of all means of publicity. (Media)

Destroy the people's faith in their natural leaders by holding the latter up to contempt, ridicule and obloquy (disgrace).

Cause the registration of all firearms on some pretext, with a view to confiscation and leaving the population helpless.

Have they reached their goals?

I'm not sure what else I can show you.
Can you prove the NWO doesn't exist?
What do you mean by "real research?"

Cug-here's another thought.

George Washington is alledged to have said

Few men have virtue to withstand the highest bidder.
George Washington

Can you prove he didn't say that? If we read that he said that in a "book" any book, who's to say that's proof that Washington actually said that?
Is there a recording of it?
For that matter have you ever seen a PHOTOGRAPH of George Washington? (Not a painting)
No? Well how do you know he existed? What if I said "I don't believe George Washington ever existed."
Could you prove he did? How? Because you read it in a book? How else could you know George Washington ever truly existed if you didn't

A. read it in a book or the internet? or
B. See it on TV?

Do you believe everything you read or see on TV?
Have you ever met anyone who met someone who met someone who's great grandfather met George Washington?
Then how can you prove, beyond a shadow of a doubt, that he ever existed at all?

I'm not arguing, I'm honestly asking, can you, through research, PROVE to me Washington truly existed? Or Napolean, Or Henry the V111, or Isaac Newton, or anyone who "alledgedly" existed B4 the advent of photography? Even photos can be faked. See the problem?

I'm sure it's obvious, but I am NOT actually advocating the idea that George Washington never existed. I'm asking how would one go about proving that he did. I believe that he did, but after giving the matter some thought, I have to ask myself too, how could I prove it, or is it provable? If so, how?


[edit on 29-4-2006 by Chezz]

[edit on 29-4-2006 by Chezz]

Originally posted by Chezz

HAVE THEY REACHED THEIR GOALS?

COMMUNIST RULES FOR REVOLUTION (Captured at Dusseldorf in May 1919 by Allied Forces)


Corrupt the young; get them away from religion. Get them interested in sex. Make them superficial; destroy their ruggedness.

By specious argument cause the breakdown of old moral virtues; honesty, sobriety, continence, faith in the pledged word, ruggedness.

Encourage civil disorders and foster a lenient and soft attitude on the part of government toward such disorders. (L.A. riots were just a coincidence? ... Of course!)

Divide the people into hostile groups by constantly harping on controversial matters of no importance. (Racial differences?)

Get people's minds off their government by focusing their attention on athletics, sexy books, plays, and other trivialities.

Get control of all means of publicity. (Media)

Destroy the people's faith in their natural leaders by holding the latter up to contempt, ridicule and obloquy (disgrace).

Cause the registration of all firearms on some pretext, with a view to confiscation and leaving the population helpless.

Have they reached their goals?

The above has just been debunked, here.

What do you mean by "real research?"

The reference to "real research" may have been that if you had done some real research, you would have discovered that the above "Communist Rules for Revolution" were a hoax? This then would cast some doubt into the validity of anything else you have presented of late within ATS, as to their merit and worth?





seekerof

Originally posted by Chezz

Let me ask you something. What, in your mind, would be "research?"
I've pointed you to all kinds of links, even three ENTIRE BOOKS, but you keep coming back saying "That's not research."

What I said is that's not your research. You want people to "Do the Research" yet you fail to do so. Your right I don't think you can prove those links... because you didn't write them! The author may be able to prove it, Now you can say this is why I feel this page is on the right track, or this paper makes some interesting points like X, Y, Z

Again, without physically buying the books, the internet is all we have. But even if we did buy the books, you could still say "How do you know he said that?" Whatever it may be.

It's called a library. If Mr. X said xyz in his book, or Mr Y said in his biography of Mr X that he said ABC we have something to go on.

You read my other post in the "illuminati question" where I said "The evidence of the NWO's presence is stronger than the proof of their absence." and I stand by that.

But you don't say what the evidence is and why you think it is strong. You seem to say this guy has the evidence in this book, but you don't say why it's worth anything.

You seem like a smart guy/gal? And I don't think you're trying to flame me, but I'm sort getting the impression that no matter what I say or give you to read, you'll come back saying "That's not proof." If that's the case then we'll have to agree to disagree.

No Flaming.. Just talking here. What I would like you to do (sorry if I'm singling you out a bit) is tell me why you think such and such about a link. And not "OMG look at what I found *some web link* your stupid if you don't believe it". (I'm not saying you said that, but you do see things like that here)

So i'll refer back to the original question. If there isn't a conspiracy to rule the world (NWO) why isn't there? Through your own research, can you prove to me there isn't one? I hope you can and that I'm wrong about the whole NWO thing, believe me. But I don't think you can.

Again it's hard if not impossible to prove a negative. And when did I say there was not conspiracy to rule the world? What I'm saying there is no NWO.

I've read MANY, MANY REAL Books about the NWO, secret societies, the federal reserve, Council on Foreign Relations, Phrophesy, etc. (And I mean REAL BOOKS not online stuff) Isn't that research?

It depends. In this case real research would be reading books by both sides of an issue. Not what one side said the other side said.

To me, it doesn't sound like you're too far off anyway. Look at the Patriot Act, look at the gun control laws, look at the drug laws. Do laws like that protect our freedoms? Look at all the surveilence cameras sprouting up.

It's not the NWO doing those things. it's just the the government.

Don't know if you saw or not so here it is again. This is from the vampire killers.

COMMUNIST RULES FOR REVOLUTION

Have they reached their goals?

Like Nygdan posted that is a hoax. Being tricked by hoaxes is what happens when you rely totally on the research of others.

Ok point taken, I should have done more research. However, I'm sure that at a site like this, not everything one reads is going to be 100% accurate. Whether or not the document is authentic or not, does that mean that WHAT IT SAYS isn't going on in America and around the world?

What I said in my response to that on my other thread was

Ok thanks for pointing that out. I'm sure it will go along way with "Cug." I guess you can't believe everything you read on the internet and you learn something new everyday. Here is what I was looking for which basically says the same thing.

Ten Planks of the Communist Manifesto

www.uhuh.com...

Can anyone say this isn't exactly what's happening today?
For some reason the "quote" thing isn't working the way I want.



[edit on 28-4-2006 by Chezz]

[edit on 29-4-2006 by Chezz]

[edit on 29-4-2006 by Chezz]

Cug-First of all, I appreciate your commments. It really got the wheels turning. I really didn't think it would be that difficult to prove the existance of NWO, but the NWO (whatever it may be or not) is by it's nature a very secretive thing. IF THERE WAS ONE, it's something that the "powers that be" would, by it's nature, try to keep secret or at least keep it secret as long as possible.

I am going to keep digging and hopefully in the next few days put together something better with REAL RESEARCH. I am not admitting defeat. I'm simply saying that you have given me some stuff to think about, which I do. I am a thinking person. I'm not above reproach.

"A thinking man will change his mind, but a fool never will." I'm not a fool, and am always open to new ideas, BUT...I still maintain my initial statement that the NWO is provable.


However, in a way we do sort of agree with each other.

And when did I say there was not conspiracy to rule the world? What I'm saying there is no NWO.

All I was trying to say was that there is a conspiracy to rule the world. What it's called or referred to as isn't as important as the fact that it exists. On the "illuminati argument" thread I said.

The plan to rule the world hasn't always been refered to as the "New World Order." But irregarless what it's referred to as (The Great Plan, The universal Motion, Globilization. The New Atlantis, New World Order, etc) is pretty much irrelivant in my opinion, because no matter what it's called, the goal has ALWAYS been the same:to rule the world.

What it seems to me is that the main thing is that we do both apparently agree that there is a conspiracy to rule the world. What they refer to that conspiracy as, whatever they call it, is redundant.

However, again I will do some more digging and initiate a new thread. Watch for it.


I'm also looking forward to your response to my "George Washington" question.


[edit on 29-4-2006 by Chezz]

[edit on 29-4-2006 by Chezz]

[edit on 29-4-2006 by Chezz]

Originally posted by Chezz
I'm also looking forward to your response to my "George Washington" question.

are you sure?

Few men have virtue to withstand the highest bidder.
George Washington

Can you prove he didn't say that?

Again you cant prove a negative! The very most someone could say is that they can't find any evidence that it was correct. I'd like you to prove you didn't say "I worship the Flying Spaghetti Monster." See what I mean about proving a negative?

If we read that he said that in a "book" any book, who's to say that's proof that Washington actually said that?

How? you research it. The quote was from a book called the Maxims of Washington in the chapter named Virtue and Vice first published in 1854.

Well in many cases that might be enough but if it's not... Well it's time to do some more research!

The Library of Congress has 65,000 documents from Washington in their George Washington manuscripts collection. time to start reading.

I'm sure it's obvious, but I am NOT actually advocating the idea that George Washington never existed. I'm asking how would one go about proving that he did. I believe that he did, but after giving the matter some thought, I have to ask myself too, how could I prove it, or is it provable? If so, how?

That's just getting silly. All I'm trying to say (apparently very badly) is check your sources!

What it seems to me is that the main thing is that we do both apparently agree that there is a conspiracy to rule the world. What they refer to that conspiracy as, whatever they call it, is redundant.

nope I think there may be a conspiracy, or it may be a totally legal plan to rule the world, I don't know. (but I have a feeling my distrust lies in a totally diffrent direction than yours)