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Illuminati Argument?

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posted on Apr, 28 2006 @ 01:02 PM
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What is the best argument that some of you have heard in favour of the existence of the Illuminati? Can you present it in a concise way?


Now, turning that on its head, what is the best case that some of you have heard showing that the illuminati don't exist (except outside of a short-lived bavarian illuminati group)?

It would be interesting to hear both arguments from people that have a strong opinion either way.




posted on Apr, 28 2006 @ 01:35 PM
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Yes the illuminati does exist, but they may not go by that name anymore.

Let me explain what I mean. The plan to rule the world hasn't always been refered to as the "New World Order." But irregarless what it's referred to as (The Great Plan, The universal Motion, Globilization. The New Atlantis, New World Order, etc) is pretty much irrelivant in my opinion, because no matter what it's called, the goal has ALWAYS been the same:to rule the world.

When people refer to the "illuminati" what they're talking about is a group of select people at the very top of the pyramid structure controlling, or at least heavily influencing, virtually everything that goes on in the world.

I have doubts as to whether or not there's an actuall, factual, group that literally calls themselves "illuminati", but it doesn't really matter what they call themselves because their goal is still the same:to rule the world. And I do beleive there is a group of people at the top of the pyramid structure who are attempting to do that, regardless of what they actually refer to themselves as.

In religious circles, there's a common saying that goes:

"The evidence of God's presence is far stronger than the proof of His absence."


I think that could be paraphrased to read

The evidence of the illuminati's/NWO's presence is far stronger than the proof of their absence.


Well that's my concise argument. But here's a link that goes into FAR more detail as far as the illuminati goes, if anyone wants to read it. If so, I'd pay paticular attention to the Rockefellers, but even more to the Rothschilds. Hope this helps.

www.thewatcherfiles.com...



posted on Apr, 28 2006 @ 02:07 PM
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Hey there, yes I believe the illuminati definitely exist. The person above me already said a lot of the good reasons why. One of their best tools against us is mind control; control a person's mind and they're completely in your power.
Here's a link to some interesting conspiracy videos if anyone wants to watch them:

www.luakabop.com...


Cug

posted on Apr, 28 2006 @ 06:04 PM
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From my point of view the best evidence that the Illuminati don't exist, is the evidence presented that they do exist.

One of the better examples of this is how the O.T.O. is often shown as above the Masons in the Illuminati power structure (some theories claim them to be be parallel to the masons).

But that makes some problems.. for example for much of the 1960's the O.T.O. was effectively dead and didn't really get going again until the 80's (as far as membership goes). That leaves me wondering just how the Illuminati functioned missing what is claimed to be an important part.

Another problem is that the O.T.O. has no power in the real world. I mean one of the points in a rather heated debate is that the O.T.O. has no property. Something that even small rural churches have. Not to mention that only a handfull of O.T.O. local bodies are even able to rent a space to call their own. Most O.T.O. meetings are held in places like someones basement, or living room.

There is more but I don't want to type that much.


The thing is this is just one part of the whole Illuminati thing that I happen to know a bit about. Other parts of it I can pick apart just by doing a bit of research. Or other parts that just have zero evidence whatsoever (Like how the command and control structure works. I mean how can Mr. Illuminati get Joe Mason to do something.. something that may be totally out of character for Joe Mason?

[edit on 4/28/2006 by Cug]



posted on Apr, 28 2006 @ 06:45 PM
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Originally posted by Nygdan
What is the best argument that some of you have heard in favour of the existence of the Illuminati? Can you present it in a concise way?

What I believe to be true of the illuminati is that they were a 'liberal' group created to give scientists, philosophers, artists, writers and progressive thinkers in general protection from religious oppression and persecution. I am still unsure where people have got the idea that they are controlling everything.. they seem to be [if they still exist] for protecting the advancement and liberty of humanity.. not for destroying it. If this is not the case now they've done a major backflip against their own ideals into following those of the enemies they were supposedly resisting. I believe they have been used as scapegoats by the real 'powers that be'.. whoever they are.


[edit on 28-4-2006 by riley]



posted on Apr, 30 2006 @ 06:44 AM
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Originally posted by Nygdan
What is the best argument that some of you have heard in favour of the existence of the Illuminati? Can you present it in a concise way?




Reading the protocols of the Learned Elders of Zion is enough evidence for me that the Illuminati exists. Then in turn look at the world and how it is today, its clear to me that they have achieved practically all their goals. I don't really see the protocols as prophetic but more less a proposed plan.


Illuminism is like a trimmed airplane, its a form of government, love it or hate it, that keeps on working day after day, year after year, with a minimum of problems.


Here is a quote from the book rule by secrecy by Jim Marrs-


Marx's manifesto set forth the ten immediate steps to create an ideal communist state. They bear a striking resemblance to the Protocols Of the Learned Elders of Zion, suggesting some common origin. These steps include:

1. Abolition of private property
2. A proggressive or graduated income tax
3. Abolition of all inheritance
4. Confiscation of all property of dissidents and emigrants
5. Creation of a monopolistic central bank with state capital to control credit
6. Centralization of all communication and transport
7. State control over factoryies and farm production
8. State ownership of all capital and the creation of a deplyable labor force
9. Combining agriculture with manufacturing industries and the gradual
distibution of the population to blur the distinction between towns and rural
country.
10. Free public education for all children



This list was also remarkably similar to the steps for creating the ideal society proposed by the Bavarian Illuminati. strongly indicating a close connection between the two.



Rule by Secrecy is the best book I have read on this subject so far.



posted on Apr, 30 2006 @ 07:35 AM
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Good point TgSoe


I also think that the Protocols of Zion should be researched further and could have been written by some sort of society similar to the Illuminati.

In the Protocol of Zion Fact or fiction thread Infinite did a wonderful job at trying to get beyond the Russian Police forgery, but didn’t find anything. (yet)

However we did learn from the toolkit that only 16% of the Protocols was copied from the Dialogues. And it has an amazing degree of accuracy. Which suggest that there is an even more ancient source from which both document might have borrowed from. (Similar to the biblical Q document). This document would have been written by something we equate with the Illuminati, a small group determined to take over the world.



posted on Apr, 30 2006 @ 10:20 AM
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Illuminati,is all about control, what is it thet actually want? nuclear weapons,gold, oil,money, food, water,peoples bodies, their minds,their following?
A programme on tv last night about governments throughout the world privatising WATER to companies whose intentions are to put the price of water out of most peoples reach,causing many many deaths due to diseases from improper sanitation.
It seems the illuminati are negative to good and anti-christian,so who do they worship? what are their goals ? Maybe the war of armagedon is getting close after all,and we know who is behind it all, don,t we?We get good thoughts and bad thoughts and we decide the direction to take.But if the illuminati choose to take only bad thoughts,then all that is bad must follow. As has been predicted in the bible,so its going to happen regardless of what you think and do. Maybe the illuminati are trying to force people to take their side through control? If you have the power over peoples basic needs,then they will do what you say.



posted on Apr, 30 2006 @ 01:28 PM
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There were always leaders. Miserable sheepies need leaders and leaders need sheepies. Then there were kings and lesser nobles. They still needed sheepies to fight their wars and grow their food. Sheepies are a niusance: they bleat and whine for food, protection and relief from taxes. So leaders/kings learned to pretend to care out of fear (never admitted) of the sheepie mass strength. But many kings were idiots so relied on advisors. As always, the servant becomes the master so soon it was the advisors who held the information and power. Advisors are too smart to show their faces. Freedom comes with anonymity. Let the kings strut and pronounce. And kings got themselves killed regularly and quite often by the advisors.

The shadowy advisors had to work together, so got to know each other quite well. Soon their network was controlling the then-world, assisted by the church which was helpful in controlling the sheepies. The church was permitted a cut of the profits. The advisors, of necessity, infiltrated the church and soon controlled it.

The world was less populated then. The advisors ostensibly carved it up and handed the bits to the ruler kings, whilst retaining true control. All the while, the advisors were compelled to contend with the whining of the kings and the 'people'. It curbed their plans but the advisors plotted and schemed. They had plans, but these would take a while to reach fruition. Every now and then, for one reason or another, the advisors deemed it necessary to reorganise the world. Titles and empires were destroyed or created, wars were caused, famines, recessions. Generation after another, the advisors--- who were now immensely wealthy, powerful individuals and groups -- jostled for position whilst acting as stage managers regarding the world and its people. In recent history, the advisors caused the French Revolution, the American wars (Independence and Civil) WW1, WW2, Communism, the Korean war, Viet Nam, Gulf War, War on Terra and dozens of bloody massacres in as many countries. They were just tidying things up, honing the Plan.

Now, they're precisely where they wanted and planned to be: the point where humanity as it currently exists, is redundant. The reason it took so long is because they had to wait for technology to catch up with them.

They believe it will be a nice world, when it's cleaned up. Humanity has bred itself to a standstill. From the point of view of the shadowy rulers of the world, humanity needs to go the way of the Dodo. The Shadows don't need humanity any more. The planet doesn't need humanity at all. Humanity used to be useful in the creation of profits, but the Shadows are now wealthy beyond imagining. All they need on the planet now is a skeleton staff. And they don't need humanity to breed those skeletons. No, the Shadows can make their own ! They have stockpiles of GORgeous vintage DNA; DNA from the purest Ice Blondes of Scandinavia; lush Eurasian. They have genius DNA to enable the Shadows to live forever and Superman DNA to be used to create super athletes to compete in entertaining marathons, fights with tigers, etc. Or they can create robots, perfect in limb and obedient in nature. The Shadows are altruistic. They know that to repair the earth and recreate a literal garden of Eden, they must eliminate gross humanity. The Shadows will use us for fertilizer. They believe it to be poetic justice.

For a summation of the Shadows/Illuminati preparatory-stage agenda, the Protocols of Zion suffice, forged or not. They have now given up on modifying our existence in favour of outright elimination. Our only satisfaction will lie in seeing all those zionists being turned into fertilizer along with the rest of us. They betrayed us and served the Shadows, believing they are the 'chosen' who would inherit the planned Eden. 'Fraid not. And Bush, Blair and their ilk are in for a rude shock as well.



posted on May, 1 2006 @ 02:24 AM
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the problem with proving the existance of a society that is secret, is the lack of physical and or verifiable evidence. these people go to great length's to keep their organization secret so proving anything said here is going to be a challenge in itself. with that said let's carry on, first the illuminati are the hidden head of the world wide masonic legions, they are an organization within an orgainization.




Freemasonry is an organization within an organization. One organization is deliberately lied to and mislead with false interpretations, while the inner organization knows the spiritual Truth of Freemasonry, and embraces it with heart, soul, and mind.





New Age author, Bill Cooper has this to say about these two fraternities, one within the other. "Most members of the Freemasons are not aware that the Illuminati practices what is known as 'secrets within secrets' or organizations within organizations." [Behold A Pale Horse, p. 79]


most mason's will reject these statements because they will find it very hard to believe that their fellow mason would lie to them






The final example of this "fraternity within a fraternity", the Invisible residing within the Visible, comes from the oldest New World Order planning document known to be in existence. This document is one of the best examples of Automatic Writing, and it details many of the changes societies throughout the world must make in order to achieve the Kingdom of The Christ. This document is known as the Protocols of the Learned Elders of Zion, and is being followed carefully today. Listen as the supernatural author speaks of the two organization within Freemasonry. The author is speaking of the guise by which the Illuminati will ultimately seize dictatorial control.


make no mistake about it ...the devil is the god of this world and the illuminati does exist!!!



[edit on 1-5-2006 by the_sentinal]


For what purpose then have we invented this whole policy and insinuated it into the minds of the gentiles without giving them any chance to examine its underlying meaning? For what, indeed, if not in order to obtain in a roundabout way what is for our scattered tribe unattainable by the direct road? It is this which has served as the basis for our organisation of SECRET MASONRY WHICH IS NOT KNOWN TO, AND AIMS WHICH ARE NOT EVEN SO MUCH AS SUSPECTED BY, THESE GENTILE CATTLE, ATTRACTED BY US INTO THE SHOW ARMY OF MASONIC LODGES IN ORDER TO THROW DUST IN THE EYES OF THEIR FELLOWS." [Protocol #11 - The Totalitarian State, Paragraph 7; Emphasis was in the original]


anybody recognize these versus ???

[edit on 1-5-2006 by the_sentinal]


crt

posted on May, 1 2006 @ 07:16 AM
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About 15 years ago I was in a bar having an after work cocktail, and I guy I worked with was in the corner having a lively discussion with some guy. I walked over to join the discussion. I started listening in and, they were talking about Satanism and occult stuff.
The guy said he was in the illuminati, and was actually a part of an inner circle called the O.C.O. I asked him how prevalent the illuminati is and he told me they have people in every sector of society and the government.
He was wearing a strange looking ring on his finger. I asked him if the ring had any significance, he told me it gave him power and control. I asked him to show me a demonstration, but he said he could only use the power for their purpose, and can't just use it to "show off".
Apparently the guy was a known satanist in the area, but I wasn't quite sure if he was full of BS or not.

Basically he told me everybody is an unenlightened idiot except those that are in the illuminati. Who are enlightened and have the scoop on reality.

Obviously this doesn't prove anything, I just thought it was strange to actually meet somebody who claims to have been in the illuminati.



posted on May, 1 2006 @ 07:59 AM
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Originally posted by crt

Apparently the guy was a known satanist in the area, but I wasn't quite sure if he was full of BS or not.

Basically he told me everybody is an unenlightened idiot except those that are in the illuminati. Who are enlightened and have the scoop on reality.

Obviously this doesn't prove anything, I just thought it was strange to actually meet somebody who claims to have been in the illuminati.




it sounds like he might have been, the ring of enlightenment in the way he put himself over the average idiot is basically how they think..




Many well-meaning men are members of this visible society with no knowledge whatsoever of the inner invisible society. In fact, Albert Pike had some things to say about the brethren in the visible society: "Masonry, like all the Religions, all the Mysteries, Hermeticism, and Alchemy, conceals its secrets from all except the Adepts and Sages, or the Elect, and uses false explanations and misinterpretations of its symbols to mislead those who deserve only to be mislead; to conceal the Truth, which it calls light, and draw them away from it." [Morals and Dogma, p. 104-5, 3rd Degree]


notice the way that the average joe deserves to be mislead??



posted on May, 1 2006 @ 08:06 AM
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I'm currently reading a book called "Proof of the Illuminati" by Seth Payson. It was written in 1802 and is quite hard to read but throws up some very interesting facts about the Illuminati. It's a great book so far and I would recommend it if you are interested in this subject.



[edit on 1-5-2006 by DodgeG1]



posted on May, 1 2006 @ 08:20 AM
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Originally posted by crt

The guy said he was in the illuminati, and was actually a part of an inner circle called the O.C.O. I asked him how prevalent the illuminati is and he told me they have people in every sector of society and the government.





i wonder if they are here at ATS??? thing that make you go hummmm!!!



posted on May, 10 2006 @ 10:27 AM
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Nygdan - why are you allowed to start these "Dorothy Dicks" type disinformation threads using a moderator account?
I've managed to put all the other retarded morons here on "ignore" but your moderator status means that I have to look at your half baked and pointless attempts to repeatedly coral threads that are actually against the whole nature of this forum.



posted on May, 10 2006 @ 10:32 AM
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Originally posted by MrNECROS
all the other retarded morons here

This is the reason for your warning.

Also, in the event you have not yet noticed, ATS is a destination for free and open discussion on a variety of topics. Asking for a collaborative discussion on the evidence for/against something like the Illuminati is certainly within the topical focus of what we do here.



posted on May, 10 2006 @ 10:37 AM
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Originally posted by MrNECROS
type disinformation threads using a moderator account?

*blink blink*

I asked for people's best arguements for and against the existence of the illuminati.


threads that are actually against the whole nature of this forum.




This is the secret societies forum. The illuminati are a secret society. I merely asked for people's good arguments for or against its continued existence.


How wonderfully ironic that, in such a thread, you post accusations and vitriol, rather than evidence, or even an argument.



posted on May, 10 2006 @ 01:02 PM
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I don't think we'll ever be able to come to a consensus, mainly because I don't think the term "Illuminati" means the same thing to everyone.

I don't believe Weishaupt's "Illuminati" as it originally existed in Bavaria still exists today, but I certainly believe that there are PTB that work in collusion to further their own interests. Can anyone seriously doubt that?

No, I don't think there's a monolithic entity populated by a group of funny hat wearing chanters praying to the Old Gods and working mysterious arcane rituals full of symbolism, hell-bent on dominating the planet. Who wants that headache, anyway? All They are interested in is controlling the wealth. But They scrabble and scratch and fight with each other in their own personal turf wars, given that's what people do. Unless the argument is that They aren't really people. You'll lose me on that one.

On the other hand, if you're interested in signing up, apparently, that's doable, too.


And who is "Dorothy Dicks"? Some disinfo queen? Not Cassiopaean, I hope.



posted on May, 10 2006 @ 01:41 PM
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The best arguments are:

-CIA involved in drug smuggling for black projects. Pedophilia rings as well (Jeff Gannon anybody? That's Johnny Gosch).

-Concentration camps in America (ie: Rex84 and Ollie North)

- PNAC calling for a "new Pearl Harbour" in it's website before 9/11

- William Cooper on "Majesty12" (was killed for it)

-Fritz Springmeier being framed for Marijuana posession by the CIA after his book on the Illuminati.

-Al Cuppet, former Joint chiefs of staff hotshot saying Brussels Belgium is dishing out orders to our Goverment and that Hillary Clinton is their next puppet.

- FEMA using only 6% of their budget for disaster relief (where is everything else going?)

- Pentagon using CNN as a propaganda outlet (evidence of media collusion)

-Bohemian Grove (somebody need's to tell me that having Walter Cronkite narrating mock human sacrifice isn't strange!)

-Goverment knowing 9/11 was going to happen thanks to hundreds of warnings from other Intel agencies months before, insider trading on 9/11 morning.

- Skull and Bones link with German Thule society which provided the roots of Nazism.

-2 Bonesmen disputing the last presidency when the tomb accepts max 10 people per year. several more as presidents.

-Waco, where the Goverment killed women and children with flamethrowers and demonized Koresh and his community with false allegations.

These are some of the things which make me not too dismissive of a conspiracy against us.



posted on May, 10 2006 @ 07:13 PM
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I believe it was a Helpful Pearl Harbour rather then just new. Good thing they were dumb enough to write it that way. Really gives it away that 9/11 was an inside job.

The Illuminati exists for sure. Encyclopedia Brittanica says that they were formed in Bavaria in May 1st 1776 but later on went underground in Freemasonry in North America. Convieniently they don't say anything more.

The biggest tell tale is follow the Money. The pyramid on the USD bill. You see it in quite a few interesting places takes you all the way to the Israeli Supreme Court. Follow the Phoenix too. Hilary Clinton used to wear a phoenix lapel all the time in the earlier Clinton years.

if you want to know if the Illuminati exists just follow the money, pyramid and pheonix whether it be one head or two.

And when it comes to Freemasonry once you reach the 33rd you could be selected for Illuminism, Illuminated Degrees. But Masonry is a great way for them to weed out good people and keep them in the dark while the people consumed with greed find their way in.

The Illuminati is simple to some up really. It's the darkside of man. Greed and lust for power. Illuminism is the perfect example of all of mankinds worst fears.



[edit on 10-5-2006 by Crazy_Mr_Crowley]

[edit on 10-5-2006 by Crazy_Mr_Crowley]



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