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Feminist or FemiNazi? Truth and Myth

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posted on Jun, 1 2006 @ 03:12 PM
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Originally posted by phoenixhasrisin
the very act of man on man rape is a direct assault on the masculinity of the person being raped, feminization of the victim via derrogatory terms is just further reinforcement of who is in power.



Think about this.




posted on Jun, 1 2006 @ 03:44 PM
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Originally posted by parrhesia
Think about this.


What is there to think about? This has nothing to do with men/women relationships as darkelf pointed out.

You are taking an example of a heinous crime commited by a disturbed individual, and then citing the terms this same deranged person uses as some kind of proof of widely held gender beliefs. Sorry, but men in prison who rape other men are not even representative of their fellow inmates, let alone of all other men.

[edit on 1-6-2006 by phoenixhasrisin]



posted on Jun, 1 2006 @ 06:09 PM
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This is a great thread.



Originally posted by phoenixhasrisin
After all, we all know rape is about power anyways, the very act of man on man rape is a direct assault on the masculinity of the person being raped, feminization of the victim via derrogatory terms is just further reinforcement of who is in power.

I'm not going to speak for parrhesia, but I can tell you what I see in your statement.

If rape is about power, and I agree that it is, when you say male on male rape is a direct assault on masculinity of the raped, then you are equating masculinity with power. The subsequent use of 'feminization of the victim' reinforces the impression that women are seen as lesser.

In the attempt to take away their power, these men are having their 'masculinity' assaulted and being 'feminized' ie: turned into that lesser of creatures, a woman.

But that's just what I see.



posted on Jun, 1 2006 @ 06:14 PM
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Originally posted by Duzey
If rape is about power, and I agree that it is, when you say male on male rape is a direct assault on masculinity of the raped, then you are equating masculinity with power. The subsequent use of 'feminization of the victim' reinforces the impression that women are seen as lesser.

In the attempt to take away their power, these men are having their 'masculinity' assaulted and being 'feminized' ie: turned into that lesser of creatures, a woman.


Bingo.


That is pretty much exactly what I meant.
Personally, I do not see how you can look at what phoneix said and NOT see the underlying implications that Duzey so kindly explicated.

I will be back later.


[edit on 1-6-2006 by parrhesia]



posted on Jun, 1 2006 @ 07:06 PM
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Originally posted by Duzey
If rape is about power, and I agree that it is, when you say male on male rape is a direct assault on masculinity of the raped, then you are equating masculinity with power. The subsequent use of 'feminization of the victim' reinforces the impression that women are seen as lesser.



No, that is where you are wrong, I do not. The sick individual comitting the crime is the one that equates power, and agression, and rape as a direct assault on the masculinity of another. It is sad to see that so called feminist buy into the same basic mindset as prison rapist rapist.



posted on Jun, 1 2006 @ 08:18 PM
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Originally posted by phoenixhasrisin
It is sad to see that so called feminist buy into the same basic mindset as prison rapist rapist.


What? That is too funny.


Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic

Originally posted by phoenixhasrisin
My point was, that it would not be such a bad thing if women dictated some aspects of society.


The aspects you approve of, though. I mean you wouldn't want women dictating that men can't be firefighters or cops. Just the 'ladylike stuff'.



I noticed you didn't leave a response to this and I'm wondering... How would you feel if women dictated to you that firefighters and cops weren't occupations that you should go after because you're not appropriate for them? Just a hypothetical question if you can stretch your mind that far. How would it feel? What would you do? How would you respond?



posted on Jun, 1 2006 @ 08:25 PM
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You posted those words, not me. Don't even try and portray them as my mindset. :shk:

Hell, I don't even know any prison rapists to find out what kind of terms they use. I'm just going by what TV and movies show.


Originally posted by phoenixhasrisin
The terms used are accurate and I do not see how they are sexist. A bitch ( a mans sexual toy in jail) refers to how a dog simply walks up and does what he wants.

A bitch is a female dog. But you already knew that, didn't you?

And yet you still can't see the point that my bitches
(used in the same way black people might refer to themselves as 'n-word's and gay people will call themselves queer, in an attempt to take control over and lessen the power of the word) are trying to get at.



posted on Jun, 1 2006 @ 09:13 PM
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Originally posted by phoenixhasrisin
It is sad to see that so called feminist buy into the same basic mindset as prison rapist rapist.


DUDE! I'm going to have to be careful to not be drinking when I read your stuff if you're going to keep this up! Took me a while to get my keyboard and screen cleaned off!



posted on Jun, 2 2006 @ 12:37 AM
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Please go back to the previous page and read my last two post. This argument has been covered by both of those post. Using rape as an example is objectification and sexual objectification. It happens to both men and women.

Claiming that rapist feminize their victims is stereotyping. Using this same argument, when a woman rapes a man, she is feminizing him. Sorry, but I don't buy that. Rape is about power over another human being. It has nothing to do with gender. The act itself dehumanizes a person to where gender is a moot poit.



posted on Jun, 2 2006 @ 09:03 AM
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Originally posted by Open_Minded Skeptic
DUDE! I'm going to have to be careful to not be drinking when I read your stuff if you're going to keep this up! Took me a while to get my keyboard and screen cleaned off!



Glad you enjoyed it, can you actually imagine some of the stuff that comes out of my mouth? Believe it or not it was an accident and I meant to hit preview and soften it up, but in my haste I actually hit post reply. When I tried to go back and fix it, the site froze up on me, and then my wife wanted to play the sims, so I had no chance to correct it. Hell, I'm am just lucky I didnt get a verbal castration for that one...anyways.


Originally posted by Duzey
You posted those words, not me. Don't even try and portray them as my mindset. :shk:

Yes I posted those words, in a misguided attempt to explain to you all that prison Rape is a horrible example of how a small minority of men think. As I already stated, that mindset is rare, even amongst inmates. If that is the case, then how can you possibly use the feminization of men during rape, as an accurate portrayal of how men as a whole view things? I agree with dark elf though, this rape crap sidetracks the issue.


I don't even know any prison rapists to find out what kind of terms they use. I'm just going by what TV and movies show.

A bitch is a female dog. But you already knew that, didn't you?


That's alright because I do know a couple of prison rapists. Of course I know the meaning of the word bitch .I used the term bitch because that was the sort of term that parrhesia was talking about when she said...

Originally posted by parrhesia
And like I said before, men are not raped as men, they are always feminized.



And yet you still can't see the point that my bitches
are trying to get at.

I see what yo bitches (think Rex Kramer, Danger seeker ) are trying to get at, I just think you do not see what I am trying to get at. Basically I feel that they have arrived at their conclusion based on faulty logic, and stereotypes. Now when one thinks in stereotypes, and tries to apply that stereotype to the entire mindset of an entire gender, is that not the same as what a chauvinist does?


Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic
The aspects you approve of, though. I mean you wouldn't want women dictating that men can't be firefighters or cops. Just the 'ladylike stuff'.

I noticed you didn't leave a response to this and I'm wondering... How would you feel if women dictated to you that firefighters and cops weren't occupations that you should go after because you're not appropriate for them? Just a hypothetical question if you can stretch your mind that far. How would it feel? What would you do? How would you respond?


I actually meant to. I think this is totally off the mark, because if you can remember, I did say that women can have the entire medical community...including doctors, which, is traditionally thought of as a man's profession. I'll let you in on a little secret...Darkelf's riddle earlier puzzled me, it was not until I read on, and she suggested that the mother could be the doctor did I get it, pretty sad huh? Anyways, I think I demonstrated that it does not only appply to "ladylike stuff" ...at least as far as I am concerned.

As for the second question...I am truly sorry but I can not answer that. I mean, perhaps if there was any reason whatsoever that you could give as to why women would make better police and/or firefighters, then perhaps it would be a question I could seriously consider. Since there is no logical argument as to why a female in general would make a better cop or whatever, then In my mind that question is on par with asking me "What if the sun were blue and the sky were yellow?". Sorry, but I don't think '___' has ever even stretched my mind that far.

[edit on 2-6-2006 by phoenixhasrisin]



posted on Jun, 2 2006 @ 09:58 AM
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Originally posted by phoenixhasrisin
I think this is totally off the mark, because if you can remember, I did say that women can have the entire medical community...including doctors,


But my point is... YOU decided. You decided that the entire medical community is appropriate for women. YOU decided that cops and firefighters are off-limits because of your logic.

Why is it ok for men to decide what occupations are appropriate for both women and men?

Women want the choice. Free and clear from a decision by men that we may 'have' the whole medical community.



Darkelf's riddle earlier puzzled me, it was not until I read on, and she suggested that the mother could be the doctor did I get it, pretty sad huh?


Again, thanks for your honesty. You know what's really sad? When I first heard this riddle probably 20 years ago, I was also puzzled. That indicates how everyone in our society is conditioned to gender roles. Not just men.



As for the second question...I am truly sorry but I can not answer that.


You can't answer how it would feel to be told what professions you can and cannot seek out? Just the first base response you have when being told that you, because you are a man, may not apply for? Nothing? You cannot say how you'd feel if women decided for you that you can't be something you long to be?

We, the women of the country, have decided that men aren't fit to be firefighters because:

- Their bulky frame prevents them from getting into tights spots where people might be stuck.
- Their lack of emotional attachment prevents them from connecting with the loss a fire brings and therefore we feel they won't be motivated enough to save homes, buildings, people and pets
- They are needed to fight the wars currently going on in the world.

So there are our reasons. I'm sure you'll agree. Firefighter is really a woman's job. Thanks anyway.

Now, as regards my reasons. They suck, right? Not to us, they make perfect sense! But to you, they are simply BS. Too bad. Because we say what goes, not you.

How does it feel? I know how it feels, I want you to know how it feels.



posted on Jun, 2 2006 @ 10:38 AM
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Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic

Why is it ok for men to decide what occupations are appropriate for both women and men?


It isn't men deciding this. It is because of whatever force created men and women that made us different.

At my volunteer firehouse, we have had a couple women come and go. They didn't make it past having to carry a 200 lbs man out a window and down a ladder.

1.5 decades ago, I was a medical assistant considering nursing. I didn't make it due to my inability to be gentle and nurturing.

We each have plenty of freedoms, but we are restricted to certain area's - as genders and as individuals.

If I was unable to grasp many aspects of math, does that not restrict me from persuing a carreer as a mathmetician? I could try, but I would only waste my time.

Again, we are different - there are some things we just cannot do. This is true with gender, race, height, strength, intelligence, knowlege, age, health and more.

What is so wrong with being different?

Women want respect? Well, let us remember karma. If one wants to receive respect, one must first GIVE respect. If one wants to be heard, they must first learn to listen. One cannot gain respect nor be heard just by demanding it.



posted on Jun, 2 2006 @ 10:41 AM
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Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic
But my point is... YOU decided. You decided that the entire medical community is appropriate for women. YOU decided that cops and firefighters are off-limits because of your logic.


No BH, that was in response to a hypothetical question asking how I would feel if men were told that they could not be nurses. I would not care, plain and simple.


Why is it ok for men to decide what occupations are appropriate for both women and men?

When it comes to being police, cops, and firefighters, I believe men have the right because a) They are the ones that founded those institutions, and b) From what I understand, many of those proffessions have LOWERED the standards for women.

Now I know you and DarkElf have already said that you think that is wrong, and hypocritical, which it is. But my point is, if they were truly equal at such things, then the requirements would not have needed to be lowered in the first place. They have, and there is a reason for that. They are clearly not as qualified to do such things. Are there some who could pass at the same requirements as men? Sure, but they are the minority, a small minority. A minority soo small that instituting legislation so that all women can feel better knowing that they can become a cop or something, when in fact, 99% of all women will not choose or be able to do so, seems assenine to me.


Now, as regards my reasons. They suck, right? Not to us, they make perfect sense! But to you, they are simply BS. Too bad. Because we say what goes, not you.

Yes they do, and you know it as well as I do, which is why you even said so. They do not make perfect sense either, which is why you also mentioned it( I love deconstruction). As with the examples you gave that actually did make sense, I already told you, I would not care. You just cannot either believe it, or understand it.


How does it feel? I know how it feels, I want you to know how it feels.


I do know how it feels. Clue you in on a little something. I hate work(who doesn't) but I would seriously love to be able to stay at home and raise a kid, but I do not have that option. Why? Because no matter how much I would like to, I can see the logic in the reasons you gave for childhood care, and in the interest of my child, I am willing to sacrifice that want for his/her benefit. Sometimes life requires sacrifices, I am willing to make those, for the betterment of my loved ones, and sometimes even society.

[edit on 2-6-2006 by phoenixhasrisin]



posted on Jun, 2 2006 @ 11:50 AM
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Originally posted by godservant
It isn't men deciding this. It is because of whatever force created men and women that made us different.


I don't believe in a creator. Next.



At my volunteer firehouse, we have had a couple women come and go. They didn't make it past having to carry a 200 lbs man out a window and down a ladder.


But they had the choice to go for the position. And surely you're not saying that there are no women who could lift the 200 pound man, are you?



1.5 decades ago, I was a medical assistant considering nursing. I didn't make it due to my inability to be gentle and nurturing.


BUT YOU HAD THE CHOICE. And surely you're not saying that there are no men who can be gentle and nurturing, are you?



[edit on 2-6-2006 by Benevolent Heretic]



posted on Jun, 2 2006 @ 12:20 PM
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Originally posted by phoenixhasrisin
When it comes to being police, cops, and firefighters, I believe men have the right because a) They are the ones that founded those institutions, and b) From what I understand, many of those proffessions have LOWERED the standards for women.


So? If this were the case with schools would you believe women shouldn't be educated either? What about churches? Hospitals? This doesn't make any sense.
I'd also like to know what you think rape victims [women and children] should do if they want to feel comfortable coming forward.. go through the humiliating details with male cops? Have them collect the 'evidence' and take photoes? How appropriate would that be? What about strip searches? Do you really think it would be legally advisable for male police to do cavity searches on female suspects? There'd be potential for all sorts of allegations to be made there.

[edit on 2-6-2006 by riley]



posted on Jun, 2 2006 @ 12:22 PM
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Originally posted by phoenixhasrisin
No BH, that was in response to a hypothetical question asking how I would feel if men were told that they could not be nurses. I would not care, plain and simple.


And my point was that you would care if it were something you were interested in.



When it comes to being police, cops, and firefighters, I believe men have the right because a) They are the ones that founded those institutions


Now that's some good logic!




But my point is, if they were truly equal at such things, then the requirements would not have needed to be lowered in the first place.


We all know that men in general are stronger than women in general. No one has claimed that we're "equal in such things". In fact we've said just the opposite. But there are women who are stronger then some men.

I understand you don't think it's worth it for that small minority of women to achieve their dreams. I disagree. I don't think being a minority should automatically count a person out from trying for the American dream.

But at least I'm beginning to really understand where you're coming from on all this.


They do not make perfect sense either, which is why you also mentioned it


That's exactly why I mentioned it. Your reasons are BS too. Men invented firefighters? Oh, yeah, that's a good one!
It would be asinine to allow the capable women to be firefighters? Another doozy! "It would be asinine, that's why." Oh, yeah, that's classic!



I do know how it feels. Clue you in on a little something. I hate work(who doesn't) but I would seriously love to be able to stay at home and raise a kid, but I do not have that option.


Oh, no. You most certainly DO have that option. You CHOOSE, for whatever personal reasons, beliefs and opinions not to. Don't tell me you don't have the option, as a man, to be a stay-at-home dad because there are plenty of men doing it in the US today.

Call it a sacrifice, call it logic, call it whatever you want, but have the balls to acknowledge that it's a CHOICE you make, for whatever reasons. Nobody told you you can't.



posted on Jun, 2 2006 @ 12:52 PM
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Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic
I understand you don't think it's worth it for that small minority of women to achieve their dreams. I disagree. I don't think being a minority should automatically count a person out from trying for the American dream.

There are some inN.A.M.B.L.A. that feel the same way. Perhaps one day all oppressed will be able to join hands and sing in the words of the old Negro spiritual: Free at last! etc, etc.

Men invented firefighters? Oh, yeah, that's a good one!
It would be asinine to allow the capable women to be firefighters? Another doozy! "It would be asinine, that's why." Oh, yeah, that's classic!

To legislate something that is not even going to affect 1% of the population, yes it is assenine. When I say Men invented it, I mean that since they invented it, they should be able to call the standards, and if women can not reach those standards, which most can't, then what is all the fuss about?



Oh, no. You most certainly DO have that option. You CHOOSE, for whatever personal reasons, beliefs and opinions not to. Don't tell me you don't have the option, as a man, to be a stay-at-home dad because there are plenty of men doing it in the US today.

No, I do not. My wife has made it plenty clear that she is going to raise the children, and that I will not be a stay at home Dad. Not much different from a man telling his wife that she is going to stay at home is it? Do I whine and complain about how she has crushed my dreams of being a stay at home dad? No, I suck it up, and take it like a man.

[edited for inclusive link, and extra point]

[edit on 2-6-2006 by phoenixhasrisin]



posted on Jun, 2 2006 @ 01:00 PM
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Originally posted by phoenixhasrisin
There are some in N.A.M.B.L.A. that feel the same way.


Like I said, I'm beginning to see exactly what you really think of women.



No, I do not. My wife has made it plenty clear that she is going to raise the children,


JESUS!


The law isn't telling you can't. I can't help what happens in your personal relationship, but by law, women are limited as to the professions they can choose from. By law, men are not.

I said a long time ago that I wasn't going to argue this with you anymore, but I keep thinking there just might be a chance that you'll finally understand! I don't know why I thought that! I could kick myself!



posted on Jun, 2 2006 @ 01:08 PM
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so wait, women = Child molestors?




All I gottasay is I'd like to be a stay at home dad.

I could do freelance graphic design work from my office, take care of the kids, not have to dothe 9 to 5 stuff.

Sure.



posted on Jun, 2 2006 @ 01:21 PM
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Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic
Like I said, I'm beginning to see exactly what you really think of women.

Oh come off it, you know that was not my point.



The law isn't telling you can't. I can't help what happens in your personal relationship, but by law, women are limited as to the professions they can choose from. By law, men are not.

What professions are you barred from?


I said a long time ago that I wasn't going to argue this with you anymore, but I keep thinking there just might be a chance that you'll finally understand! I don't know why I thought that! I could kick myself!

Same reason I continue I suppose, because it has been interesting.



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