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Feminist or FemiNazi? Truth and Myth

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posted on May, 31 2006 @ 10:59 AM
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Originally posted by godservant
It just seems to me that for every disadvantage a woman can claim, a man can come up with one too, and vice versa.


I don't know if I buy that, but ...

The true feminist movement is trying to do something about the disadvantages women encounter. If you feel disadvantaged, do something about it. But fighting the feminist movement isn't going to do anything to correct your disadvantages. Making sure everyone suffers an equal amount of disadvantages is not good enough for me.

Let's all work to correct the disadvantages we suffer so that we can all realize more fufilling lives.



I live FOR my wife. However, because she has always tried to live ABOVE me, instead for or WITH me, she is now asking me not to leave her. I will leave that choice to a higher source, but you see how this perception of feminism is ruining families ALL OVER THE PLACE.


Yours is a relationship issue. It has nothing to do with feminism. If your wife calls what she is doing 'feminism', she's a liar, too. If you want to leave, leave. But don't stay and blame it on her or feminism. You are not a victim of feminism. You are in a bad relationship with a woman who has real problems.

(I know some of godservant's history, so I'm not just assuming or making things up)



Whenever there are two EQUAL leaders in one home and one or both refuse to do any submitting,


There are no leaders in our home. There are no submitters. We don't believe in that because IT DOESN'T WORK unless both people agree that's the way it should be and they agree clearly on who should be the leader. Even then, it's difficult. Resentment results.

Ours is a partnership. If you believe that there must be a leader, I don't doubt the reasons you have issues with feminism. It's not exactly in line with what the bible says.



I am tired of submitting 95% percent of the time. Equal? No way. I see it in SO many places even outside of my own experience.


As I said, yours is a relationship issue. And I see very few equal partnerships in America today. The ones that are, are stable, happy, supportive, respectful and loving. Having a leader only creates resentment, regardless of which gender takes the role. Maybe it worked in the 50s, but it doesn't work today, except for very few.



[edit on 31-5-2006 by Benevolent Heretic]




posted on May, 31 2006 @ 11:27 AM
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I have to agree with you on the relationship part... Val and I are partners for sure. Nobody "runs" things. i.e. I do the dishes, cook and keep the place presentable. WHY? Because I work from home and it's logical.

I HATE doing laundry, Val does laundry.

She HATES going to the market, I do the shopping.

It's pretty simple really, I've never understood the desire to have subordinate/master relationships at home. I have always felt you should apply your strengths where your partner has challenges and vice versa. There is no need for a leadership role in that scenario.

I believe in the old saying "opposites attract", it makes sense from the weakness/strength perspective and the reason so many divorces occur is one person trying to change the other person into becoming more like themselves. The ignorance and irony in that is astounding to me.


I think LOTS of false male pride B.S. has been passed around too. I have no idea why someone would really believe cleaning house is "woman's work", it's just work. Work that needs to get done if you want to enjoy a clean environment. There is nothing demeaning in my mind about grabbing the vacuum cleaner and cleaning the house. It IS demeaning in my mind to live like a pig.



Springer...



posted on May, 31 2006 @ 11:54 AM
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Originally posted by phoenixhasrisin

Feminism is, quite simply, a belief and support of the social, political and economic equality of the sexes. Feminists work to make a reality the social, political and economic equality of women and men.




I do not wish to be the same as you. And I do not believe that woman and man can be perfectly equal. We need to, however, have the same opportunities - economically, politically, intellectually, and so on.


Hello, nice thread you got here. The first quote is from the first post in this thread, and the last is from your last post in the thread.I am confused, can you help me. If you don't believe that equality is possible then why fight for it?


I think your problem is that you think I've said something incompatable. I haven't.
I'm fully aware that as men and women, the sexes are very different and in that sense, unequal. But as humans, and when it comes to political, economic, intellectual and social freedoms we can have equal opportunity and not be limited based purely on being women.

We're all humans fundamentally - males and females fundamentally constitute the same thing, yet one group has more opportunity, and more value than the other.



Sure there are always those who say that they are all for removing the double standards that exist, but why are those never part of the argument?


You may not see it, but that is part of the opportunity.
If women were not constantly objectified and seen to be there for the use and enjoyment of men then perhaps there would not be any problems associated with a male officer frisking a female. Why might women not want to cohabitate in jails? I don't think the men would have to worry excessively about rape whereas the same cannot be said of women in such a situation. Once again, if women were free of those fears - the fear of rape, of being controlled and used sexually without consent then maybe that would be ok.

I don't think anyone should be hit for looking at someone the wrong way or saying the wrong thing, but if it has to be done you certainly won't be hearing me arguing against it on the basis that I am a woman.


Another thing to think about--any and all progress made in society will probably vanish as soon as society is finished. It could be 10 years or a thousand. As soon as there are no police, and/or laws to protect them, women will most likely be forced back into their "traditional" roles.


That's a piss poor argument against feminism and the current struggles.

Next?



posted on May, 31 2006 @ 12:32 PM
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Originally posted by Springer
I have to agree with you on the relationship part... Val and I are partners for sure. Nobody "runs" things. i.e. I do the dishes, cook and keep the place presentable. WHY? Because I work from home and it's logical.

I HATE doing laundry, Val does laundry.

She HATES going to the market, I do the shopping.


I agree, it should be that way. However, to be partners means that one cannot control everything. To not control everything means that one must submit to the other.

I cannot do those things according to my wife. She likes to say how women could never control these things before and now they can. Then she complains about having to do them.

Parners is submitting to the other aprox 50%.

At my work, there are more female bosses than males (I.T.) and they all make more than I do. I am ok with that.

In divorce courts, men get the short end of the stick by default. Why is it not a default act to at least attempt shared custody and split the combined incomes 50/50? Several studies show that children of divorce do best when they have equal access to both parents.

I was recently assulted by my wife. Instead of hitting her back, I called the police. I was arrested as well because she hit me in front of our 4 year old - risk of injury to a minor, disorderly conduct. In EVERY other case where I saw (or heard) of the female calling the police on her male partner, the male was arrested only. (I never beat a woman)

A female can run for president.

A female can vote.

A female can do anything a male can do in the US today. For the few things she may not be able to do, there are a few things he can't either.

All I am saying, is that from my perspective, it appears that women have already gained equality in the big picture. This continued effort is making them appear to want more than equality. Cartoons, family shows, movies and Oprah seem to do display the same thing.

I would like to see men and women stop fighting against each other. Where we see inequality today is an individual issue now, not a gender issue. You may still find men who degrade women, but now you also find women who degrade men.

I think it should now be a fight between those who don't believe in equality and those who do - not males versus females.

Change it from feminism to equalism! However, I see most do not agree with me, so instead we fight.



posted on May, 31 2006 @ 12:51 PM
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Originally posted by parrhesia
We're all humans fundamentally - males and females fundamentally constitute the same thing, yet one group has more opportunity, and more value than the other.


And why is that? Because the current order that feminist want soo much access to was forged by that group (men) out of war, and strife, and that is how it is maintained today.





You may not see it, but that is part of the opportunity.
If women were not constantly objectified and seen to be there for the use and enjoyment of men then perhaps there would not be any problems associated with a male officer frisking a female.

What I do not see are empasioned arguments that call for a woman draft as much as I hear about equal pay for equal work. Even your fellow feminist here admitted that they are in the minority as far as this is concerned, why the B.S?


Why might women not want to cohabitate in jails? I don't think the men would have to worry excessively about rape whereas the same cannot be said of women in such a situation. Once again, if women were free of those fears - the fear of rape, of being controlled and used sexually without consent then maybe that would be ok.


Are you trying to tell me that men do not worry about getting raped in prison? You have got to be kidding me? So let me get this straight, you feel women have seperate (read unequal) co-habitation arrangements because of some fear that something might happen, therefore you need and deserve "protection"? Nice equality there. Perhaps you should get over your fear and come to the realization that not every man wants to forcefully stick their penis in you.


I don't think anyone should be hit for looking at someone the wrong way or saying the wrong thing, but if it has to be done you certainly won't be hearing me arguing against it on the basis that I am a woman.


That is where one of the many differences lie, men do feel, and behave this way. It is this precise order that has brought about the "rights" that you covet soo much now.



That's a piss poor argument against feminism and the current struggles.

Next?


It's not an argument against feminism, more of an attempt to get you to realize that unless you do more to bring about TRUE equality, then women will be forced right back into their traditional roles, no matter how empowered they think they are.

[edit on 31-5-2006 by phoenixhasrisin]



posted on May, 31 2006 @ 01:32 PM
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Originally posted by phoenixhasrisin
Are you trying to tell me that men do not worry about getting raped in prison? You have got to be kidding me?


Who does the raping?



posted on May, 31 2006 @ 01:37 PM
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Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic
Who does the raping?


Sickened individuals who have a severe problem with power. Are you trying to insinuate that rape is exclusive to males? Of course in male prisons, it is males who do the raping. Who does the raping in the female prisons (excluding the C.O's)After all your posts in this thread this really surprises me.



posted on May, 31 2006 @ 02:15 PM
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Originally posted by phoenixhasrisin
Are you trying to insinuate that rape is exclusive to males?


I'm not insinuating anything. You should know that I don't insinuate. I didn't say rape is exclusive to men, except in male prisons. That's what we were talking about. And if you've read my posts on rape, you'll know I stand up for men who have been raped by other men and by women.


You said men are afraid of getting raped IN PRISON, and I asked who's doing the raping IN PRISON. And the answer is their male prison mates.



Who does the raping in the female prisons (excluding the C.O's)


No, not excluding the COs. And yes, women do rape other women. I'm not denying that.



The truth is that prison rape of females is more common than the rape of males. It usually comes in the form of other prisoners as well as male & female guards. Male prisoners usually have to deal only with other inmates.
Source


Women are more often the victims of rape in prison from all sides than men. Why would we want to open up the possibility of increasing those odds by being imprisoned with people who are generally larger and stronger than us? That's not a human right!

How much worse would the problem be if men had women to choose from instead of their male prison mates?

Both men and women deserve the protection from being raped, but until that happens, I understand and support women not wanting to open themselves up to being imprisoned with bigger, stronger prisoners who would just love to get hold of them. Sorry if that offends you.



After all your posts in this thread this really surprises me.


I'm sorry. I happen to have been raped, not to mention repeatedly sexually abused as a child. All by men. It's something I'd like to avoid.



[edit on 31-5-2006 by Benevolent Heretic]



posted on May, 31 2006 @ 02:24 PM
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Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic
Both men and women deserve the protection from being raped, but until that happens, I understand and support women not wanting to open themselves up to being imprisoned with bigger, stronger prisoners who would just love to get hold of them. Sorry if that offends you.


Offended? Never. Baffled, yes. This is more of the blatant hypocrisy that I mentioned in my first post, yet you defend it as alright. This is precisely the reason that no-one outside of feminist take the feminist movement seriously.

Perhaps I am just different, but I am not under the impression that anyone has a right to be protected from anything (cept children, oh wait let me guess they are equals too). People can do what they want, but there will always be someone there to either try to stop you, or persuade you to do otherwise. It is up to the individual to either press on, or cease activities for whatever reasons, be they forced or not.



I'm sorry. I happen to have been raped, not to mention repeatedly sexually abused as a child. All by men. It's something I'd like to avoid.


And I am truly sorry for that as I feel that rape is worse than murder, however, that does not excuse the line of thought that you are using here. When I was a child I got beat up by a group of white skinheads. Do I have the right to be continuously protected from something that I think might happen again? Perhaps. But I can't scream in the next breath that I am equal after asking for special treatment based on nothing but fear, and claims of inequality.


[edit on 31-5-2006 by phoenixhasrisin]



posted on May, 31 2006 @ 02:35 PM
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phoenix, knowing the reality of prison life as much as one who has never been there can:

Do you think women and men should be imprisoned together?
Do you think they should shower together?
Do you think the women would pose some kind of threat to the men?
Do you think the men would pose some kind of threat to the women?



posted on May, 31 2006 @ 02:59 PM
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Here's the deal. Equal rights means that if I murder someone, and you murder someone under the same circumstances, we both get equal punishment under the law.

If I want to serve my country and you want to serve your country, we both must meet the same requirements to do the same job.

Cohabitation is a totally different issue. Sex and sexual behavior come into play when people cohabitate. That's part of being human. That's something everyone should be free to choose. The law should protect all prisoners from the other prisoners. Failing that, prison is a very dangerous place for everyone.

Cohabitation has nothing to do with being treated equally.



posted on May, 31 2006 @ 03:12 PM
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Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic
Do you think women and men should be imprisoned together?
Do you think they should shower together?
Do you think the women would pose some kind of threat to the men?
Do you think the men would pose some kind of threat to the women?


How nice of you to ask (seriously no sarcasm intended). I will try to explain my beliefs. No, I do not believe that women and men should be imprisoned together. Showering together would be impossible if they were not housed together, no? Do I believe that women would pose a threat to men? no. Would many of the men pose a threat to the women? Probably.

I am not the one claiming that men and women are equal though, and deserve all of the same opportunities. Personally, I do not believe that women should be allowed to be police, fire "people", or serve in the military.

I am of the conviction that there are certain aspects of our character/attributes that can be directly linked to the biological differences between men and women.

Does that make women "worth" less than men? Of course not. Does that mean that women should be forced into a life of homemaking and childbirth? An emphatic no!

Converesly, I do not think that the majority of women should also have to face a draft, or the other possibilities just because a few women have a chip on their schoulder and are out to prove that they can do anything as well as a man. Most things women can do as well as a man, but definitely not everythihng, and the opposite holds true for men as well.

In my eyes these differences only make women not "worth" as much as far as certain situations are concerned, and not their overall worth as humanbeings. Sorry, but if I had to choose between going off to battle with a man or a woman, I would more than likely choose the man.

Does this mean that I think that women can not make great warriors? Of course not, like darkelf who can fire a weapon, and knows a martial art, she might actually be more useful than some of the men I know. This though, is an exception to the rule, as we have already admitted.

Allow me to share a story...Before I was married I dated a person who was more a feminist than my wife is. She believed in her heart of hearts that men and women were equal. Well, one day she is at a friend's house and her friend's boyfriend says something rude.

Being the liberated female that she was, she did not hesitate to shoot back a remark. This angered the guy so he ashed his cigarrette on her, which she did to him in return. Sitting on the floor, the guy got up , and lightly kicked her in the foot. Being the equal person she was, once again, she returned the favour.
This enraged the guy soo much that he hauled off, and socked her closed fist, leaving a gash on her eye which was bleeding quite profusely by the time that she found me.

Do you think she got up and hit the guy back? No, she didn't, because she finally realized that she was not equal. What did she do? She came and found me at a friends house, so that I could beat the living crap out of this guy. Did I have any qualms doing it? Of course not.

I do know this though...three corona 22 oz bottles to the head, 45 stitches, and two days in a coma taught that little piece of @#&% a lesson that I am sure he will never forget. The five stitches my girl received also taught her a lesson as well... She wasn't/isn't equal, and/or able to take care of herself in all ways.

Either you are equal, and subject to all aspects of equality (yes, including co-habitation), or you admit that you need protection from the big bad men. You can't have it both ways.


[edit on 31-5-2006 by phoenixhasrisin]



posted on May, 31 2006 @ 04:09 PM
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Originally posted by phoenixhasrisin
[Either you are equal, and subject to all aspects of equality (yes, including co-habitation), or you admit that you need protection from the big bad men. You can't have it both ways.


Wow, well said -very well said.

It may also be added though, before someone gets defensive, that women are, again, different - not less.

I am reminded of a story where 3 mobsters came to collect a payoff from a farmer and his family.

When the male got all cocky, they were going to kill him until the wife interupted, prayed on the mens weaknesses, flirted and talked positively to them, promising everything will be taken care of in the near future. The men left and the family was able to escape with all of their lives, thanks to the woman and her intuition abilities.

This is why I personally have a problem with feminism, as it is displayed in movies and TV and books and newspapers - you know, culture.

The women want equality, not realising they already have it. When we can something better than them, they want it to be equal. Well, they can't. We'd sure as heck would like to have 'womens intuition', but you don't see men taking that to court.

We already ARE equal - in the BIG PICTURE. You are strong where we are weak, AND VICE VERSA!

Sorry, didn't mean to raise my voice there. It's just that I think if feminism doesn't stop, the 'war face' between men and women is going to grow and no resolution will ever be found - except possibly a revert to old times.


*************************************************

Start EQUALISM - focussed on individuals instead of gender.

*************************************************



[edit on 31-5-2006 by godservant]



posted on May, 31 2006 @ 04:21 PM
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Originally posted by phoenixhasrisin
Personally, I do not believe that women should be allowed to be police, fire "people", or serve in the military.


Well, no wonder we disagree then.
But that's ok. People disagree. You never claimed to be a feminist.



Converesly, I do not think that the majority of women should also have to face a draft,


Why not?



or the other possibilities just because a few women have a chip on their schoulder and are out to prove that they can do anything as well as a man. Most things women can do as well as a man, but definitely not everythihng, and the opposite holds true for men as well.


It doesn't have anything to do with 'being able to do it as well as a man', or having a chip on their shoulder. It has to do with being able to do it. It has to do with having the choice available to them. IT HAS TO DO WITH CHOICE! If I want to serve my country and be drafted, why shouldn't I?



Does this mean that I think that women can not make great warriors? Of course not, like darkelf who can fire a weapon,


Any woman can fire a weapon. Darkelf chooses to.



Allow me to share a story...


I'm sorry I don't even want to address this. Violence between men and women... it has nothing to do with feminism.

Think of me as a hypocrite if you wish.
Really. I am secure with where I stand and I understand 'movements' like this take time and people aren't going to be all willing to jump on the bandwagon.



posted on May, 31 2006 @ 07:13 PM
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Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic
Well, no wonder we disagree then.
But that's ok. People disagree.

Exactly.


Why not?

Because I think that the current way works just fine. It is not an appeal to tradition if you feel it works, and you believe that it is right.


It doesn't have anything to do with 'being able to do it as well as a man', or having a chip on their shoulder. It has to do with being able to do it. It has to do with having the choice available to them. IT HAS TO DO WITH CHOICE! If I want to serve my country and be drafted, why shouldn't I?

Perhaps you don't have a chip on your schoulder, but there are plenty that do. We used to call it penis envy before everything had to be P.C.

As for the draft... Do I really have to point out the absurdity in this as well? The very idea of a draft is to remove all choice. Yet, here we have a feminist proclaiming that she wants the choice to have her choice taken away?!?!?


Any woman can fire a weapon. Darkelf chooses to.


I know that any woman can fire a weapon, I also know that many more women choose not to as well. The fact that she chooses to educate herself in such a way is what makes her the exception to the rule, as both you and her have already admitted.


I'm sorry I don't even want to address this. Violence between men and women... it has nothing to do with feminism.

Considering the laws in this country blatantly favour women in this regard, I am completely amazed at this. I do not know why I am though. Hey, at least your hypocrisy is consistent huh?


Think of me as a hypocrite if you wish.
Really. I am secure with where I stand and I understand 'movements' like this take time and people aren't going to be all willing to jump on the bandwagon.


How can I not when you have blatantly been hypocritical in regards to your views on gender equality? Do I think you are a hypocritical person? I do not know you, so I can not say that. I think that it is inevitable that a movement plagued with hypocrisy turns out hypocritical adherents though.

I do not believe this is the fault of all women per se either. I just think that it goes to show that the feminist movement or philosophy, despite the claims, has absolutely nothing to do with equality. As our conversation has shown, most feminist pick and choose what opportunities they want, and either ignore, or dismiss all other aspects of equality that are not soo favourable . Interesting that this thread is in deconstructing disinformation & deflection...don't you think.

Nice discussion either way, and hopefully no offense was taken at anything I said.



posted on May, 31 2006 @ 07:46 PM
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Originally posted by phoenixhasrisin
Because I think that the current way works just fine.


I don't think it works just fine. It doesn't work fine for me, but I guess that's not your concern. You think it works just fine for everyone, you're the man, so I guess I should just not worry my pretty little head about it.



As for the draft... Do I really have to point out the absurdity in this as well? The very idea of a draft is to remove all choice.


I want women to have the choice to serve their country to their fullest ability. If the country institutes a draft, then I believe women should be drafted. I realize the way it works is just fine for you. But you're not the only one affected. But again, I'm just a woman so what do I know?

You are mistaken to assume that cohabitation in a prison envirenment and violence against other people is some kind of proof of equality.



Considering the laws in this country blatantly favour women in this regard, I am completely amazed at this. I do not know why I am though. Hey, at least your hypocrisy is consistent huh?


How am I being a hypocrite? Violence doesn not equal 'manly'. Violence is something people of both sexes engage in when they can't figure out what else to do. Violence is not an equal right.


But if someone threatened me or mine, let me just say they'd be very sorry. And I wouldn't have to go running to my husband to bail me out, either.



Nice discussion either way, and hopefully no offense was taken at anything I said.


I most definitely take offense at being called a hypocrite, because I am not, but I can handle it.


[edit on 31-5-2006 by Benevolent Heretic]



posted on May, 31 2006 @ 08:01 PM
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phoenixhasrisin:

You have some well-stated arguments, with which I disagree.


Feminism is not about men and women being the same. It is obvious they are not, and that point has been made ad-nauseum here.

Feminism is about equal protection under the law, and equal protection under social custom.

If a man and a woman do the same job, with the same degree of experience, they should get the same pay. The reality is that they often do not.

If anybody gets drafted, men and women both should be.

And regarding the whole co-habitation in prison thing. There is no hypocrisy in housing men and women separately. It comes back to the fact of the greater physical strength the average man has than the average woman. A woman housed with male prisoners will be raped and otherwise abused to a huge degree. This extra 'punishment' for whatever crime she is in prison for is not just.

And yes, it does happen to men in prison, too. It is still not just, and the fact it happens to the degree it does is indicative of the failure of the US 'justice' system, not sexual bias.

There is no hypocrisy in housing female prisoners apart from men. Now, as BH stated, if a woman (or man) does NOT go to jail at all for commiting the same crime a man (or woman) DOES go to jail for, that is a problem. And in fact, there is evidence of a problem here. Consider the number of cases of wife abusers who beat the crap out of their wives and children for years, with multiple appeals to the police going unheard. Then when the woman finally breaks and kills the bastard, as often as not, she goes straight to jail. So I'm not sure the claim that the laws are biased in favor of women in this regard is valid.

I believe that there is confusion again, as has happened before, between political/economic/respect equality for women in the culture, and thinking women are, or want to be, the same as men.

Most of your examples from a couple of posts back - the story of your girlfriend, for instance - are based on the undeniable greater general physical strength of men. Yes, sometimes women, even ardent feminists, benefit from protection against dull-witted brutes who are immensely strong.

As for the story of your former girlfriend... personally, I'm glad you kicked the guy's ass... sounds like he needed it. However, your friend could indeed have handled the situation - she could have chosen to not participate in the escalation of the violence.

Here is an easy to run experiment that demonstrates the kind of inequality women still experience in the US... just go ask a bunch of people if they would vote for a woman president... no particular one, just a woman. I've done this, and many people say, "No, the country won't accept a woman president yet." At least they say "yet".

And there is NO DOUBT that there are plenty of women who could do the job. Look at the miserable excuse for a 'leader' that is in that job now. There HAVE to be women in this country that could and would do better. But "the country won't accept" a woman president.



posted on May, 31 2006 @ 08:02 PM
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phoenix, Your insistence that prison cohabitation and violence is somehow tied to equal rights is like saying that if women don't get into sports that's proof that they want to pick and choose their 'equal rights'. After all, if women really wanted equality, they'd want to sit around and drink beer and watch football, wouldn't they?

You're making a common mistake anti-feminists make by confusing women's equal rights with women wanting to be like men. As I have said, I don't want to be like a man. I want to change some perceptions about what being a woman means. I want equality whether it's comfortable for you or not.

I don't expect you to get it because you really don't want to, but I think trying to make me out to be a hypoctite because you don't understand it all is a pretty cheap shot.



posted on May, 31 2006 @ 08:09 PM
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Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic
I don't think it works just fine. It doesn't work fine for me, but I guess that's not your concern. You think it works just fine for everyone, you're the man, so I guess I should just not worry my pretty little head about it.


Please, I have tried my hardest to be polite whilst having this conversation, and I do not think that I have implied any such attitude. I am far from a chauvenist, and this assumption is sexist in and of itself. So, because I don't agree with hypocritical calls for " equality" then I must be a chauvenistic pig? Nice. Tell me, according to that logic, are all those against affirmative action also racist?




I want women to have the choice to serve their country to their fullest ability. If the country institutes a draft, then I believe women should be drafted. I realize the way it works is just fine for you. But you're not the only one affected. But again, I'm just a woman so what do I know?


Once again, I have displayed no such attitude. Once again, there is no choice in a draft, what do you not understand about that? The way it works has been fine with a hell of alot more people than me, for quite a few thousand years. don't blame me sister, much of humanity has come to the conclusion that women have no place in war. I truly hope you never have to send your children off to war, especially your daughter.


You are mistaken to assume that cohabitation in a prison envirenment and violence against other people is some kind of proof of equality.


And you are sadly mistaken if you think equal pay is anysort of proof of equality.


How am I being a hypocrite? Violence doesn not equal 'manly'. Violence is something people of both sexes engage in when they can't figure out what else to do. Violence is not an equal right.


I never suggested that violence=manliness. You are being a hypocrite because you claim that men and women are equal and deserve the same opportunities...yet then go on to say that women deserve to be protected from men in institutions such as the military, and prison.

So tell then BH, who sits around and decides when women need protection and when they don't? Let me guess, women. Quite convenient huh?


But if someone threatened me or mine, let me just say they'd be very sorry. And I wouldn't have to go running to my husband to bail me out, either.

Yeah, that's exactly what my ex-girlfriend thought...until she got socked like a man that is.



I most definitely take offense at being called a hypocrite, because I am not, but I can handle it.



You are the one who said it was fine if I think that you are a hypocrite, yet when I affirm your suspitions you get upset? What kind of crap is that? This has really turned out to be a dissapointment. Oh well... I guess I am just another dumb man who just doesn't get it



[edit on 31-5-2006 by phoenixhasrisin]



posted on May, 31 2006 @ 08:45 PM
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Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic
phoenix, Your insistence that prison cohabitation and violence is somehow tied to equal rights is like saying that if women don't get into sports that's proof that they want to pick and choose their 'equal rights'. After all, if women really wanted equality, they'd want to sit around and drink beer and watch football, wouldn't they?


That is an absurd argument, and we both know it. You are comparing leisure activity to social policy, apples and oranges. Besides, to suggest that beer and football is manly is pretty sexist. I guess I must be feminine since I do not indulge in either activities.
I suppose my mother must be masculine since she actually does.



You're making a common mistake anti-feminists make by confusing women's equal rights with women wanting to be like men. As I have said, I don't want to be like a man. I want to change some perceptions about what being a woman means. I want equality whether it's comfortable for you or not.


I am making no such mistake. Never have I said, or suggested that feminist want to be men. That is a feminist argument, that usually only surfaces when feminist can no longer logically defend their position. Set em up, and knock em down huh? Believe me I am not uncomfortable with women wanting equality nor do I feel threatened by "empowered" women. Attack my masculinty in hopes of a heated response huh? Sorry.


I don't expect you to get it because you really don't want to, but I think trying to make me out to be a hypoctite because you don't understand it all is a pretty cheap shot.


No, I do not want to understand hypocrisy, then it would make sense to me, like it apparently does to you. How is something a cheap shot after you tell me that it is ok if I think that of you?

Your constant argument that women need protection is the very same argument that was used to keep women in the home for soo long. Yet now, you as a "feminist" are using that same logic that women fought soo hard against, and to ensure special priveleges for your fellow women none the less? For shame!

You want to talk cheap shots? How about reverting to the classic feminazi rhetoric, and trying to paint me as some kind of chauvenist? All because you can not see the hypocrisy in your logic. Regardless of whether or not you see it, trust me, many men, and women feel the way I do, and can clearly see the hypocrisy.

[edit on 31-5-2006 by phoenixhasrisin]



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