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Feminist or FemiNazi? Truth and Myth

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posted on May, 30 2006 @ 03:56 PM
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Originally posted by godservant
I am tired. I want to collect child support and allimony. I want to sit home and clean and cook and watch Oprah and Days of our Lives. Go ahead, take it all away from me girls - I want to wear a pretty dress and spend the girls money on pretty nails. Sounds really bad to be a woman without equal rights, don't it.


:shk:

And you really believe it's a walk in the park, don't you?




posted on May, 30 2006 @ 04:11 PM
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About 14 years ago, at the beginning of our marriage, I did - except I didn't wear a dress.

I cleaned while the wife worked and took care of my 4 year old step son. I cooked dinner when the wife got home, paid the bills, ect. It was nice to make my own schedule. The only problem I had was feeling bad that the wife was making all the money. It lasted about 8-10 months.

It was nice not to have a boss over my shoulder and take a break whenever I wanted. I'd do it again if the same amount of money could come into my household. I just felt bad for being a man and not making the 'bread'.



posted on May, 30 2006 @ 04:27 PM
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Originally posted by pepsi78



That's because they are DEVALUED as a group. You simply don't get it pepsi. You don't understand self-esteem and the lack of it which girls face when growing up.

Hmmm you serios? girls get it easy , get the boys they want with no fuss ,get favors in school , they like snap guys around their fingers .




Wow, what world am I living in?

Girls get favors in school? Like what? What are you implying?
I certainly never got any favors while I was in school. Snap guys around my fingers? Hah.


Originally posted by pepsi78
Are there more females than males on this world YES
Does a woman have the right to vote YES
I dont see how the evil man is stoping them from grabing power, the outcome can be a woman president, they have the right to vote, they can put a woman candidate, they can do what ever they want, it's equal,



You know what the problem is here, pepsi?

First of all, you are right - there are more women than men and women also have the right to vote. So, the question is, why don't women vote in a woman?

The problem, and the answer to that question is this:

Men are not alone in thinking and devaluing women. Women do it, too.
Women also value male characteristics above the characterstics generally attributed to women. As a result no feminine woman will be voted into power yet. The vast majority of women in distinguised positions display male characteristics. In a sense they have had to masculinise themselves to be successful. The prior discussion of Condoleezza Rice springs to mind. Ever seen Legally Blonde? The lead character was devalued and her opinion essentially frowned upon due to the fact that she was exceptionally feminine - pink, feathery, glittery, giggly - not more masculine, less girly.

Because women have shared in the collective socialization that has occured over the past 1000's of years or in the past 10 years, no woman has been, or will be voted in. Women look at each other and still see each other as less capable than any man. The fact that women occupy so few positions of power that they do is a symbol of the continued and very real devaluation of women, by both women and men.

In a more general reply, most people who claim that there is no need for feminism are sitting here writing one thing, yet I'm reading the replies and seeing the opposite of your claims.

Pepsi, I believe you've said women have equal rights and there is no need for feminism. Thing about this - you said in a prior reply "cry like a girl" and you formatted it in a negative context. This says so much to me. Think about what I'm saying in this context - when a man is raped he is never raped as a man. He is always feminized. He becomes someones bitch. He becomes the woman in that relationship despite his "male-ness." Negative conotations are attached to words and those words almost always signal devaluation - pussy, wimp, wussy, "throwing like a girl" "crying like a girl", etc. As such, actions and characteristics generally associated with women are devalued ( as are women) and sought to be avoided by men. This not only shows how sexism has permeated our language, but how it informs how we look at the world and interpret what we see.

Now, I've seen so many times in this thread people say that women are not the only ones subject to limiting social roles. I have yet to see those who say feminism is not needed even acknowledge that sexism still exists and that women are not substantially equal to men, despite having the same formal rights. No. All I see is a conflation of the issue and muddying of the waters by saying "Men experience this too." No, they don't.

It needs to be recognized that women, historically and in the present, have been the subjects of devaluation. Because masculinity has been and currently still is the norm it really can be hard for those in positions of privilege to see what we are saying and to understand and perhaps empathize with what we are saying.



posted on May, 30 2006 @ 06:02 PM
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The vast majority of women in distinguised positions display male characteristics. In a sense they have had to masculinise themselves to be successful.

Why do that why becaome a man? to prove something? all you need to prove is what you are , a woman, this reminds me of that movie you know, white man cant jump, no ofefnce to the white felows I am white my self but all that wana be black , it's just like that song from offspring "give it to me baby" is this world full of wana bys?
Just be a woman, you are doing fine, you dont need to prove to me what you can do, you dont need to tell me that you can equal me because you cant, not because you are worse or better than me but because man and woman are 2 different creatures, perfect equality is made when 2 objects for example are identical, you can not compare a square with a circle and equal them , just like people, there will never be perfect equality because man is different from the woman, but what they can do is play their role in sociaty as people, exactly like they are



Because women have shared in the collective socialization that has occured over the past 1000's of years or in the past 10 years, no woman has been, or will be voted in. Women look at each other and still see each other as less capable than any man.

It's not my fault is it?
It's not my fault they cant reason with them self, here is your right to vote here you can put some one for office go ahead , is the evil man stoping you?



In a more general reply, most people who claim that there is no need for feminism are sitting here writing one thing, yet I'm reading the replies and seeing the opposite of your claims.

feminism , what is feminism in your opinion? feminism or human rights, please chose because they are 2 different things, what is runing naked in a comercial or
puting lipstick on or proving your self hey I can be a man look at me look I'm on tv, look you stupid apes , we can do what you all do, I dont really see any link to human rights, it's this promotion of half naked actractive with lipstick on saying "we are better than man" and we look better look at all that makeup on us.
It's idiotic, feminism and human rights dont mix.

I've seen shows before just to see the mentality on how the so called human rights
of the feminist group is promoted, they show up on tv with mini skirst just enough to see something not too much, they make them self pretty, they invite some guy that will do anything they say, and then they start, words like "the female rule" or "the female leads" or "the powerful woman" or it involves saying like "we girls know better than them" and then suprise surpise after that some girls show up dancing half naked to show us the truly power of the woman, I'm like WTF? is this it
they just spent 30 minutes talking all about man and that he is a pig , they flash their legs a few times , cross them over so we all can see and then the dancing girls start dancing.



Pepsi, I believe you've said women have equal rights and there is no need for feminism.

Exactly, now tell me what rights dont you have, mention a single right that you dont have.



Thing about this - you said in a prior reply "cry like a girl" and you formatted it in a negative context.

I formulated in a negative contex because people need to be what they are.



This says so much to me. Think about what I'm saying in this context - when a man is raped he is never raped as a man.

Ohh yes he is




He is always feminized. He becomes someones bitch. He becomes the woman in that relationship

Yes and you know why, because the desire of woman to control him to pull stings to make him a pupy and wave his tale nice, man is not about that, let the man be a man and stop trying to change guys, why try to control ? why rant every night ?
who is more agresive in words, who keeps it al day long till your head pops up, who has the worse maulth , who talks with their girlfriends about whaty they did and how it made results , hey I dont talk with my budys my sexual expiriance with my wife, I dont tell my budys how should I control my wife, I dont talk to them about strategys on how can I get results so that she can do what I want, I dont do that, but you girls seem to love it. pull a string today pull one another day, "ohh girl today I'm not giving him any, I made portions for him, I got my man to do anything I want" wow that is beautiful, how screwd up is that, I'm sorry to say this but we dont run after power in a relation ship , woman do.



It needs to be recognized that women, historically and in the present, have been
the subjects of devaluation.

So have slaves, so have jews , so haev many people in general, and no today it's qite different.
Show me abuse in the present where is it?



[edit on 30-5-2006 by pepsi78]



posted on May, 30 2006 @ 07:24 PM
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Originally posted by pepsi78
Just be a woman, you are doing fine, you dont need to prove to me what you can do, you dont need to tell me that you can equal me because you cant, not because you are worse or better than me but because man and woman are 2 different creatures, perfect equality is made when 2 objects for example are identical, you can not compare a square with a circle and equal them , just like people, there will never be perfect equality because man is different from the woman, but what they can do is play their role in sociaty as people, exactly like they are



This is what you don't understand, pepsi.
I do not wish to be the same as you. And I do not believe that woman and man can be perfectly equal. We need to, however, have the same opportunities - economically, politically, intellectually, and so on. As it is now, and has been, woman can be limited in these things due to a general devaluation of womanhood and woman's acitivities.

What NEEDS to change is how woman and associated characteristics need to stop being devalued in light of what is associated to masculinity. I am perfectly fine being a woman. But I will not sit idly by and be devalued simply because I am a woman.

This is a fact you need to realise - women and associated acitivites, characteristics, etc., are seen as less than, or not as good as, men and associated activities, characteristics and so on.




It's not my fault is it?
It's not my fault they cant reason with them self, here is your right to vote here you can put some one for office go ahead , is the evil man stoping you?


I am not, nor have I implied that it is your fault. If you infer that from what I've said that is your business. You are ignoring that for some there is simply a lack of awareness of the complex socialization that has gone on and how that has effected their own view of women and power.

Is the evil man stopping me? Let's not try and put words in my mouth. Men are not evil.




feminism , what is feminism in your opinion? feminism or human rights, please chose because they are 2 different things


Feminism is a vital part in the fight for human rights.

What is feminism to me? That men and women are inherently equal. My view of feminism takes a view that equal does not have to mean same - we are definitely different, but when it comes right down to it were ARE both human. However, social structures created long ago and currently maintained make it so large groups of women cannot exercise the sorts of freedoms most men are able to exercise, based on the fact that they are women. Therefore, we have humans, but based on sex they are treated differently, and unfairly, in a social context. Feminism seeks to correct this, in my opinion, by highlighting inequalities, educating, and actively practicing the equality we seek - dignity, respect, opportunity and freedom regardless of sex (and race, sexuality, etc.)


what is runing naked in a comercial or
puting lipstick on or proving your self hey I can be a man look at me look I'm on tv, look you stupid apes , we can do what you all do, I dont really see any link to human rights, it's this promotion of half naked actractive with lipstick on saying "we are better than man" and we look better look at all that makeup on us.
It's idiotic, feminism and human rights dont mix.



You obviously have a focus on the half-nakedness. Let me ask you: Who are these women getting naked for? It's not me.

Why are women making themselves more masculine? Because otherwise it can be very difficult for them to be taken seriously, as well as be successful. As I've said, masculinity and associated characteristics are the status quo. If women do not adapt and take on some of those they will have a hard time breaking out of traditionally female roles in the workplace.

You think feminism and human rights don't mix? That's because you have absolutely no understanding of what feminism is. Your view of it is almost worse than thinking we're all "feminazi's."


I've seen shows before just to see the mentality on how the so called human rights
of the feminist group is promoted, they show up on tv with mini skirst just enough to see something not too much, they make them self pretty, they invite some guy that will do anything they say, and then they start, words like "the female rule" or "the female leads" or "the powerful woman" or it involves saying like "we girls know better than them" and then suprise surpise after that some girls show up dancing half naked to show us the truly power of the woman, I'm like WTF? is this it
they just spent 30 minutes talking all about man and that he is a pig , they flash their legs a few times , cross them over so we all can see and then the dancing girls start dancing.


Why are you focusing so much on what women wear?
For one, so skimpy clothing can be said to serve the interests of men. Secondly, women can wear any damn thing they want. The important thing is that they think about how much of it is wanting to wear it and how much is feeling they need to.

BTW, I'd love to see these shows you're talking about here because quite frankly it sounds like BS. However, having read your posts in this thread it seems you're prone to misunderstanding - maybe take your eyes of the legs and listen a little bit. Showing skin and having something worth listening to aren't mutually exclusive, you know.





Exactly, now tell me what rights dont you have, mention a single right that you dont have.


I have already told you I have every right a man has on paper. But rights are not so easily gained in real life. Just because it exists in the Charter of Rights and Freedoms in my country does not mean that it DOES NOT exist in the minds of many people who influence my life.




I formulated in a negative contex because people need to be what they are.


And what are they?



Ohh yes he is


You've missed the point entirely.



Yes and you know why, because the desire of woman to control him to pull stings to make him a pupy and wave his tale nice, man is not about that, let the man be a man and stop trying to change guys, why try to control ? why rant every night ?
who is more agresive in words, who keeps it al day long till your head pops up, who has the worse maulth , who talks with their girlfriends about whaty they did and how it made results , hey I dont talk with my budys my sexual expiriance with my wife, I dont tell my budys how should I control my wife, I dont talk to them about strategys on how can I get results so that she can do what I want, I dont do that, but you girls seem to love it. pull a string today pull one another day, "ohh girl today I'm not giving him any, I made portions for him, I got my man to do anything I want" wow that is beautiful, how screwd up is that, I'm sorry to say this but we dont run after power in a relation ship , woman do.


What on earth are you talking about?

A man becomes a bith and feminized when raped because of the woman? Are you then saying that a woman who rapes becomes a man (so to speak)?

You are making some very broad and far-reaching statements based on very little.

Men don't run after power in a relationship? Maybe it's because you take it for granted and it's there quite a bit.
I don't know. But I can see you've got issues with women based on what you've written above.






So have slaves, so have jews , so haev many people in general, and no today it's qite different.
Show me abuse in the present where is it?



I don't deny that the slaves and the jews and many other peoples have been devalued and exploited based on very basic things. But we are not talking about anti-semitism or racism - we are talking about feminism. Please don't deflect from our topic of focus.



posted on May, 30 2006 @ 07:45 PM
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Originally posted by WolfofWar

If it was REALLY about equality for both genders, double standards on both sides should be addressed.


I'm all for it. Let's do it.



I'm sure any human being can relate. Because it was never solely women. It's always been people who are deemed subhuman for human rights. That is anybody poor, anybody not of national blood inthe society, anybody who was a minority. Basically anybody who was not a born and bread natural aristocrat.


And you're failing to see within those contexts that it was always and still is men who are valued more and had more freedom and opportunity.



posted on May, 30 2006 @ 08:06 PM
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I think there’s a common misconception that the goal of the feminist movement means that women want to ‘be like men’ or take over men’s roles or oppress men. The only thing feminism has to do with men is that we are inextricably connected. In such a relationship, when one party changes, the other party feels the effect of that change, and sometimes has to make slight changes of their own to accomodate the overall change. The overall equalization of halves. (I'm picturing a ying/yang symbol here)

I, as a feminist, have no desire whatsoever to be a man or be like a man or to oppress men.

Perhaps some people think that’s what feminism is about because they generally associate leadership, strength, intelligence, power, with men, and since we want to experience those qualities fully and equally in the world today, AS WOMEN, without being labeled a butch dyke or a cold bitch or a gold digger, they think that means that we want to be like men. That’s just wrong. We want to be like women, but fully realized, as we never have been.

And as long as men resist the shift that women coming into their own requires of them, as long as men feel threatened by a woman living out her potential in any way she sees fit, then we have a struggle on our hands.

I can’t help but wonder why some men are SO against feminism… It would seem to me that if you really support equality, whether you think it exists now or not, you would encourage women to do whatever they need to do to become fully realized. Your resistance only seems to point out a feeling of being threatened. And if you’re not threatened, why resist so? What are you afraid is going to happen?

The very fact that we need men to support and allow for this change that feminism fosters shows that we are not being treated equally.



posted on May, 30 2006 @ 08:51 PM
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Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic
I think there’s a common misconception that the goal of the feminist movement means that women want to ‘be like men’ or take over men’s roles or oppress men.

The concept of feminism shows a strong women that is ready to rule over all, that is how I see it
You know what I think, I think it sounds a bit like this, "let us women try now to govern , you have had your time, now it's our turn, in our own way"
It sort of sounds like that.



And as long as men resist the shift that women coming into their own requires of them, as long as men feel threatened by a woman living out her potential in any way she sees fit, then we have a struggle on our hands.

That is the point no one is oposing anything when it comes to human rights.
Can you tell me when you were out in public when did you hear some one say.
Ladys dont belong here, or are you ashame to dress like that or that is no womans busynes,or any similar thing , those who do it probaly would pick on other people as well and are in very short numbers




I can’t help but wonder why some men are SO against feminism… It would seem to me that if you really support equality, whether you think it exists now or not, you would encourage women to do whatever they need to do to become fully realized.

A woman can be feminine, it's not my busines I dont mind , it becomes my busines when she stragulates me with her feminism , what hapens when some one imposes feminim on you? because you know feminism is about a state of mind ,it becomes sufocating when demands like I want to paint the whole house pink because it's feminine , or let's adopt kids, or I want to go shooping for 10 hours and I want you to come with me, feminism can be anything, it relates on grils stuff, I am not saying they are bad things, but maybe some of us want to speak
against soem times, like, I dont want to go shooping for 10 hours, or I dont want to paint the whole house pink, and you know what it becomes a problem if you decide to have a contradictory opinion cause guess what you are speaking against feminism and feminism is also linked to human rights, so when you say no to a thing you say no to the whole aspect, and you become a pig, a jork, a jackass just because you chose to ahve a different point of view.
Why in the world did they link feminism with human rights I dont know, it does not belong in that category.

Did you see blacks or jews or any other racial group and ask for human rights like the woman is asking?? no
Did you see any of them called names like blackism or jewism NO
MAy I need to say more?
A similar name to your cause in shape is the word islamist because it militates on different aspect, it's religios and has a internal policy well defined "it's called conversion" at the curent state islamist religion is the fastest growing.
It asimilates and converts people just like feminism.

Human rights is and it will be neutral from the idividual it's self , it does not have sex, color , it addresses people in general, it's not made for black people or white people, black diditn get their rights because they know how to rap good, they got them because they are people, they didint get them because they have this thing called blackism, it has nothing to do with it, it's not about a state of mind or on how you think as a person or how you do things in your own way, you get human rights because you are human, feminism is so much more, it's demands are far more than a neutral human being, it is almost a fashon, it promotes things that are unfair and that others have to accept, it's called extra things that most people dont have the plejure of having now days, it asks for superiority.
None of the groups that asked for human rights had a name, there was no name behind it because they were simply asking for human rights, human rights does not have other names exept if you give it a flavor, it would sound like this, "woman human rights" or feminism , there is already something added, becaus it's not just human rights any more, when you give a name to your cause it becomes far more and it does not stop at human rights, human rights is called exactly like this "HUMAN RIGHTS" and that is about it.


[edit on 30-5-2006 by pepsi78]



posted on May, 30 2006 @ 09:43 PM
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FemiNazis On The March!


Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic
We want to be like women, but fully realized, as we never have been.

Typical man-hating FemiNazi, secretly wanting to be a man, but not willing to admit it. :shk:

Sorry, I just had to say that.


I have a rather twisted sense of humor, but before you kill me, please see below.


Men Not Required -- Well, Not In That Way, At Least


Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic
The very fact that we need men to support and allow for this change that feminism fosters shows that we are not being treated equally.

I disagree.

While support is never a bad thing, I believe it is entirely possible for women to assert themselves without the need for cooperation from men. Granted, that's not easy, as history amply shows.

But history also shows that women of character, integrity and courage can stand up for themselves, even in the face of brutal and barbaric opposition. It's been done many times, and will be done many times in the future.

It's being done today, right now, all over the world, and right here on ATS. And God knows there's a crucial need for women to stand up for themselves.

I advise all women to discard the notion that they need the approval of men to assert themselves.

Your strength must come from within, or you will have no strength.

Girl Talk

As has been mentioned many times, much of the confusion regarding feminism comes from the fact that much of the feminist platform has been confused with a lesbian agenda.

As you know, feminism and lesbianism are not the same thing. You can say this over and over again, and still have people equate feminism with lesbianism.

Why? Disinformation.

Which is, of course, what this forum is about. Propagandists have gone to great lengths to discredit the feminist agenda by equating it with the lesbian agenda.

These propagandists consist primarily of lesbians who seek to exploit the political power of more than half the population of the world -- women outnumber men worldwide, and in most countries -- and use it to further their goals as a minority.

The "unholy allies" of the lesbian activists seeking to hijack feminism are political conservatives who oppose feminism and wish to discredit it by falsely claiming that feminism is lesbianism.

Aside from this unspoken pact, the two groups tend to despise one another.

Politics makes strange bedfellows.


The Truth About Men And Women

There are many reasons why women tend to end up under the thumbs of men, dating back to time immemorial. The roles evolution has parceled out to men and women give each strengths and weaknesses which, overall, tend to complement one another.

Men are fated to fight and die for the opportunity to father children, and women are fated to bear those children. Each might tend to see greener grass in the other's pasture, but the truth is that being either a man or a woman is no spring picnic.

Things are tough all over.

The nature of men and women makes them compatible in some ways, but incompatible in many more ways. Somehow, we find ways to get along, but even in the best of circumstances, relationships between men and women are difficult, tenuous and usually short-lived.

But we need each other.

Without both sexes, humanity would become extinct, and while there are some who seek to replace natural reproduction with artificial reproduction to "solve the problem" of human sexuality and gender relations, there are damn good reasons why things are the way they are, and those who would seek to "improve" on what has worked so well through the millennia would be well-advised to remember that.

True Feminism

There is much confusion about what true feminism is. Many feminists seem to be confused about it themselves, and the term is subject to broad interpretation -- and misinterpretation.

This is how I define feminism: the belief that women should be free to pursue their lives as they see fit.

In other words, I see feminism as nothing more than the concept of Liberty applied to women just as it is applied to men.

I believe it should be up to women to decide for themselves how they will live their lives, and no one else. For me to believe otherwise would be hypocrisy, because I believe that the right to decide how to live my life as a man is and should always be mine alone.

I support sexual and reproductive freedom and the rights of all people, regardless of their personal traits, to be free.

And that's why I am proud to consider myself a feminist.



posted on May, 30 2006 @ 09:43 PM
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Well, I guess I disagree, pepsi78... most of those things you mentioned have more to do, I think, with personal relationships than feminism. Don't want to go shopping for 10 hours? Don't. It is that simple. It can be done with respect and kindness - "No, I don't think I want to go shopping for 10 hours... have a good time!"

Same with your other examples...

And yes, there was a fairly intensive, active movement in the US at one time, fighting for equal rights for black people... it was not called 'blackism', but rather the Civil Rights Movement. And many of the same arguments have been made against that movement - that black people want to be treated 'better', not equal.

And no doubt some do, people being the variable sorts they are. I do not believe the CRM as a whole promoted that view, any more than feminism does, although no doubt some women want to be superior.

Getting back to BH's question, it is my belief that she pretty well nailed it - it is a matter of fear. Largely fear of the unknown, fear of some men of losing what they perceive as a 'favored' position.

I have another theory, or more properly, a conjecture that may be contributing, as well. Civilization as we know it is only a few hundred years old. Civilization as such is only a few thousand, what, maybe 10,000?

For hundreds of thousands of years before that, humans lived on the same scale as what are called animals today - hunters and prey, both. Ferocity and aggression were major survival characteristics for a good long time. And men are physically stronger, in general, than women. So it was the men who did the hunting and largely the dying in those days. Which contributed to our ability to turn emotions off - seeing your friend or father or son mauled to death by something would be a big deal - and the ability to address the situation instead of just sitting down and crying was another survival characteristic.

So. All men alive today are descended from the most aggressive, most ferocious and possibly the smartest humans of each generation for countless thousands of generations. Hence, it is in our blood to be that way. And hanging on to power by whatever means necessary, is part of that.

Now today, these are no longer survival characteristics. So men face the challenge of trying to deal with a culture that rewards cooperation and thought more than brutality. And it is tough for some men to make that leap. After all, we have hundreds of thousands of years of breeding working against a few hundred years of civilization (and the nature of civilization itself lends to this... but I'm running out of space).

So I think a lot of the resistance is a very deeply ingrained fear... at what passes for the instinct level in humans. Losing control = death. It may be that simple. Not a conscious thought, but a survival reaction.

Oh, and BH? I for one am very glad you don't want to be like a man!



posted on May, 30 2006 @ 10:35 PM
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Thanks for all your responses.


Originally posted by pepsi78
Can you tell me when you were out in public when did you hear some one say.
Ladys dont belong here, or are you ashame to dress like that or that is no womans busynes,or any similar thing ,


I can tell you about the times I've gone into auto parts stores, taken my car to be worked on, talked with the guy at the landscaping company, any number of the more 'masculine' places of business and been talked down to. Or they said maybe my husband should come in. Or they called me "little lady". I can tell you of times when a man won't take me for my word simply because I'm a woman and I know things he doesn't think women should know.



feminism can be anything, it relates on grils stuff,


pepsi, feminism is not about being what is normally thought of as 'feminine'. It's not about shopping or ruffles or flowers or pink. It's about being respected, getting equal pay, having the same opportunities in life as everyone else. I hate pink.


Originally posted by Majic

Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic
The very fact that we need men to support and allow for this change that feminism fosters shows that we are not being treated equally.


I disagree.

While support is never a bad thing, I believe it is entirely possible for women to assert themselves without the need for cooperation from men. Granted, that's not easy, as history amply shows.


It's funny you pick out that paragraph because I told parrhesia that I wasn't comfortable with the wording of that particular paragraph... that it somehow wasn't getting the desired message across.

And I agree with you. Women can assert themselves and fortunately, some do.


Great theories, OMS...


Originally posted by Open_Minded Skeptic
Oh, and BH? I for one am very glad you don't want to be like a man!



Me, too!



posted on May, 31 2006 @ 12:45 AM
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Feminism is, quite simply, a belief and support of the social, political and economic equality of the sexes. Feminists work to make a reality the social, political and economic equality of women and men.




I do not wish to be the same as you. And I do not believe that woman and man can be perfectly equal. We need to, however, have the same opportunities - economically, politically, intellectually, and so on.


Hello, nice thread you got here. The first quote is from the first post in this thread, and the last is from your last post in the thread.I am confused, can you help me. If you don't believe that equality is possible then why fight for it?

Personally I think the main problem people have with feminism is the hypocritical nature of the movement. All throughout the thread there is continuous mention of economic and social equality, in regards to what is viewed as benefits only. I never hear women fighting to be included in selective services. I do not see many women fighting to get frisked by male officers. I do not hear calls to Co-habitate in jails, or barracks...Most importantly, I do not see women willing to take a blow to the chin for looking at someone the wrong way, or saying the wrong thing.

Sure there are always those who say that they are all for removing the double standards that exist, but why are those never part of the argument? It's always about pay, and opportunity. My wife is all fine for equality until the trash needs to get taken out though,or a bump gets heard in the night, or any other "man things" as she calls them, come up. Don't get me wrong, I don't mind my role as a man, I just would care for some consistency is all.

Another thing to think about--any and all progress made in society will probably vanish as soon as society is finished. It could be 10 years or a thousand. As soon as there are no police, and/or laws to protect them, women will most likely be forced back into their "traditional" roles.



posted on May, 31 2006 @ 02:00 AM
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Originally posted by phoenixhasrisin
Personally I think the main problem people have with feminism is the hypocritical nature of the movement. All throughout the thread there is continuous mention of economic and social equality, in regards to what is viewed as benefits only. I never hear women fighting to be included in selective services. I do not see many women fighting to get frisked by male officers. I do not hear calls to Co-habitate in jails, or barracks...Most importantly, I do not see women willing to take a blow to the chin for looking at someone the wrong way, or saying the wrong thing


I want the right to live my life as I choose and not how society thinks I should simply because I am female. Before my accident, I was an aircraft mechanic. I was the only female in my class when I went to school to get my A&P license. Before that, I did the same job in the Navy. I was a damn good mechanic too. I’ve had to deal with the traditional attitudes from men and women. Some men think I should be home barefoot and pregnant. Some women can’t figure out why I’d want to do such a dirty job. Not all, just some.

If I can do the job, I should get equal pay and benefits. I shared my barracks room with my female roommate and her Marine boyfriend. I also shared a barracks room with a female roommate and her girlfriend. I get examined by male doctors all the time. As for the blow on the chin thing, that stopped when I quit hanging out in biker bars.


Sure there are always those who say that they are all for removing the double standards that exist, but why are those never part of the argument? It's always about pay, and opportunity. My wife is all fine for equality until the trash needs to get taken out though,or a bump gets heard in the night, or any other "man things" as she calls them, come up. Don't get me wrong, I don't mind my role as a man, I just would care for some consistency is all


My husband works for money. I no longer can. I stay home and tend to the house. I don’t bitch at him for leaving his socks on the floor, or root beer bottles on the coffee table. I just clean them up. He says he makes the living and I make the living worthwhile. I take out the trash, mow the lawn, and check out those bumps in the night. I shoot just as well as he does. There are no man or woman things in our house. We choose everything from the refrigerator to the bathroom towels together. We have a partnership. We don’t “role play” we just live life.


Another thing to think about--any and all progress made in society will probably vanish as soon as society is finished. It could be 10 years or a thousand. As soon as there are no police, and/or laws to protect them, women will most likely be forced back into their "traditional" roles.


Maybe, but not this one.



posted on May, 31 2006 @ 03:00 AM
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DarkElf,

Sorry if I offended, but I stand by my post. Your reply was, once again, mainly your grievance with equal pay and what not. I am glad though that your marriage is truly equal, however, I feel that you are definitely in the minority as far as popular attitudes in regards to feminism, and would wager money that women like my wife are in the majority. I must admit though that your assesment of how a work environment can and does change was spot on, and actually refreshing to hear from a woman for a change. Once again though, I think you are in the minority on that one as well.

The first person who comes to mind is my Mother. She worked her whole life, yet still had a problem with the feminist movement. Why? She didn't want to get drafted, she didn't want to see combat, she doesn't want to be frisked by a male police officer, and she sure as hell doesn't want to check out those bumps in the night. I understood her point, and have known very many women who feel this way.She realized the hypocritical nature of this and had a problem with it, you can't have your cake and eat it to.

This hypocrisy in the feminist movement is not isolated either. As you pointed out, physical requirements for the military are not the same. I know here in Cali the firefighter test was also altered in a similar way. This practice is common. As you said this is not equal, yet this seems to be the norm when it comes to feminism.

Even you claim that you co-habitated with a male in the barracks, yet earlier you stated that:

"Women should have to fulfill the same requirements as men. But they should not have to bunk or shower with them"


Why? Does that sound like equality? So you might have bunked with a male, but you obviously had a problem with it if you believe that women should not have to, no?

I know this will sound cold, but...if anyone thinks that a couple hundred years of "progressive" thought can erase the gender roles that are a direct result of the fact that most women can not overpower a man, then they are sadly mistaken. Once again, I don't mind the role. Oh, and yes one can role play, but one can also fill a role, there is a difference.

[edit on 31-5-2006 by phoenixhasrisin]



posted on May, 31 2006 @ 06:18 AM
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Originally posted by phoenixhasrisin
... I never hear women fighting to be included in selective services. I do not see many women fighting to get frisked by male officers. I do not hear calls to Co-habitate in jails, or barracks...Most importantly, I do not see women willing to take a blow to the chin for looking at someone the wrong way, or saying the wrong thing.


It's probably pie in the sky, but me, I'd rather society evolved to the point where nobody is drafted to fight in some stupid war for obscure reasons, where nobody is mauled by some 'authority'-besotted stooge, where nobody gets a blow to the chin or anywhere for something as trivial as looking or saying something.

These examples demonstrate areas where our society still has room to evolve such that all people are treated with honor and respect without regard to gender.




posted on May, 31 2006 @ 07:03 AM
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No offense taken. I do have to admit that I tend to think “outside of the box” when it comes to gender issues. My husband is not a typical western male, so I guess we’re a good match. The reason the work environment changed was because people change. It doesn’t happen overnight.

Back in the early seventies there was a logic puzzle told. It goes something like this:

A father and son were in a car accident. The father was killed on impact and the son was rushed to the emergency room. The ER doctor looked at the boy and said, “I can’t operate on him, he’s my son.” How can this be?

The answer is obvious, but in the seventies, people had a difficult time trying to figure out who the doctor was. Was it the biological father, step-father, god father? Almost no one figured that the doctor was his mother. That was how society thought back then. It amazed me that even though there were women doctors back then, most people wanted to make the doctor male.

It was because of this type of thinking that the feminist movement was born. I agree with some of their agenda. Their push for equal rights was met with an opposite and sometimes overpowering force by society. Society was not ready. They did not want their daughters in the military let alone drafted. Most women wanted the benefits without having to pay their dues. That is the hypocritical nature of feminism.

There was the, our bodies, our rights crowd. This, of course, was the pro-abortion crowd. They treated pregnancy as a woman’s problem and abortion as a woman’s prerogative. They never faced the reality that there was always a daddy too. His rights were never addressed.

Next we have the bra burners. These women want respect without earning it. They felt they deserve it because of all those years that women before them were down trodden. Men bashing was their favorite sport.

Don’t forget the sexual revolutionist who wanted the freedom to sleep around like men without the stigma attached to that action. The invention of the “pill” was their favorite scientific breakthrough! I never could understand how you’re supposed to respect anyone who dresses and acts like a slut.

And finally, we have the lesbians. I have no problems with lesbians per se. Each group had their own agenda, but the lesbians seemed to be the more militant of the feminist groups. They are the ones who helped coin the term femin-nazi by their own actions.

Most of these women acted out of selfishness. They wanted special treatment, not equality. You can still see it today. Equal rights means that men have rights too. Most men I know want to be men. They want to have a choice in whether their child is aborted. They want equal consideration in divorces. They don’t want to have to walk on egg-shells around women in the work place.

I don’t want equality. I am not a man. I want human rights. That is why I focus on the economic side of the die. That is a right that should be given regardless of gender, race, or religion.


Originally posted by phoenixhasrisin
Even you claim that you co-habitated with a male in the barracks, yet earlier you stated that:

"Women should have to fulfill the same requirements as men. But they should not have to bunk or shower with them"


Why? Does that sound like equality? So you might have bunked with a male, but you obviously had a problem with it if you believe that women should not have to, no?


The operative phrase in my quote is “have to.” Most women can see a picture of a naked man and feel absolutely nothing. Most men see a picture of a naked woman and …well, you get the idea. It is how we are wired. For most men sex takes place between their legs. For most women, it takes place between their ears. Feminist who suggested that men and women shower and bunk together seemed to forget this little fact. I believe it is hard wired in our psyches.
This is why this type of co-habitation would probably never work.


I know this will sound cold, but...if anyone thinks that a couple hundred years of "progressive" thought can erase the gender roles that are a direct result of the fact that most women can not overpower a man, then they are sadly mistaken.


Agreed! This is why I know a martial art and can accurately operate a hand gun. I advise all women to at least take a self defense class. Then find someone to help you practice.



posted on May, 31 2006 @ 08:37 AM
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I wish it would all just stop.

The problem is in the individual. Some men and women both fail to see each other as equal, but different.

I myself recognise that, on average, women have strengths where men are weak and vice versa. However, now - after feminism has already achived their goal, the only thing left is to become above men.

The only thing that continued fighting is going to do now is continue the perception that women still wnat more and more and more.

If you take ALL of the advantages and disadvantages of both sexes today, it is fine. Keep fighting and men will eventually form a masculism group to fight feminism and further segregate the sexes.

Just stop already and put down your weapons. Would not equality now be created by working together instead against each other?

Women will NEVER achieve the same as men (and the same vice versa) - THEY ARE DIFFERENT!!! What is wrong with different? It isn't less than - it is DIFFERENT! We need each other for things we don't have or cannot do. Why make it so complicated?



posted on May, 31 2006 @ 09:12 AM
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Originally posted by phoenixhasrisin
I am confused, can you help me. If you don't believe that equality is possible then why fight for it?


I don't want to answer for parrhesia, but I talked about this (defining the word 'equal') back on page 9. Maybe this will clarify:

www.abovetopsecret.com...


Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic
I think we have to look beyond the strict meaning of the word 'equal' here. Sure 12=12, but 5+7=12, too. And (5+7) = (4+8). The two components of the equasion are different, but equal. Men and women are not 'the same', obviously, but we are equal in overall value, equal in worth, equal in contribution, equal as human beings.

Women have a 5 where man have a 4 and women have a 7 where men have a 8. We each have our strengths and weaknesses, and in that sense, we're different, but the overall value to society, to life is equal. Our species would not survive without the opposite gender. And we each bring to the table valuable qualities, essential to our survival and convenient to our happiness and contentment.

And there IS a certain level of sameness in some people. Especially if the people are in touch with the opposite-sex side of their personality.

When I talk about equality I'm not talking about taking one couple and saying they both have the same strength, the same opinions on everything, are equally creative, have the same potential for emotion, are equally talented... and on and on. I'm saying that if we made a graph of men and women's talents, potentials, values, characteristics, and added up all the numbers, they'd be roughly equal.



Originally posted by phoenixhasrisin
Personally I think the main problem people have with feminism is the hypocritical nature of the movement. All throughout the thread there is continuous mention of economic and social equality, in regards to what is viewed as benefits only. I never hear women fighting to be included in selective services. I do not see many women fighting to get frisked by male officers. I do not hear calls to Co-habitate in jails, or barracks...Most importantly, I do not see women willing to take a blow to the chin for looking at someone the wrong way, or saying the wrong thing.


Although I am not willing to be the victim of violence, I do advocate equal treatment as outlined above. There are posts in this thread where I advocate equal treatment in the military. As regards cohabitating in jail, again, I'm not willing to be the victim of violence but I have no problem with the 'ideal' of women and men cohabitating.

If I can generalize here for a moment, I talked before about not wanting to 'be like a man' or 'be a man' and one of the reasons I don't want to be more like a man is that sometimes men engage in violence to solve problems or get what they want. I do not advocate putting myself in a position where it would be easy for a man to perpetrate violence against me.

In other words, I don't hear men pining away for the opportunity to be raped, either.

And I also agree with darkelf above where she talks about the difference in the hardwiring of sexuality between men and women. If bunking together would not encourage a sexual situation, I'd be fine with it.



Sure there are always those who say that they are all for removing the double standards that exist, but why are those never part of the argument? It's always about pay, and opportunity. My wife is all fine for equality until the trash needs to get taken out though,or a bump gets heard in the night, or any other "man things" as she calls them, come up. Don't get me wrong, I don't mind my role as a man, I just would care for some consistency is all.


Single women do all that. And single men cook for themselves, clean and do their own laundry. There are some conveniences that we both enjoy in cohabitating. Unless you're telling me you do all the cooking, cleaning, laundry and child care, too?

Darkelf, your situation sounds very much like mine and I agree with phoenixhasrisin that we are probably in the minority, but we're with men who are not typical and embrace our strength and are not threatened by our desire to choose life as we would like. We're the lucky ones.


Originally posted by godservant
However, now - after feminism has already achived their goal, the only thing left is to become above men.


Who are you to say that women have achieved their goal? If I wish to get an education, who are you to tell me when my education is complete? I will say when my education is complete. I WILL SAY when I reach my goals. Men have made decisions in women's lives for long enough. We will decide now.



Would not equality now be created by working together instead against each other?


Yes, it certainly would. We are not working against men, we are working for women. It is YOU who see them as the same thing...



posted on May, 31 2006 @ 09:45 AM
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Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic
Who are you to say that women have achieved their goal? If I wish to get an education, who are you to tell me when my education is complete? I will say when my education is complete. I WILL SAY when I reach my goals. Men have made decisions in women's lives for long enough. We will decide now.


That is just my point. Today, you CAN educate yourself as far as you wish. Women CAN make their own decisions.

So why the continued fighting?

It just seems to me that for every disadvantage a woman can claim, a man can come up with one too, and vice versa. For every advantage a woman can claim a man can claim one too, and vice versa.

We are there.

Keep fighting and enemies are made. Stop fighting and partners are made.

Maybe we could just alter our DNA and become hemaphridites - male and female - with the ability to get ourselves pregnant (woah!). Then, we'd all be the same and have no need for each other.

Oh wait, if that was a good idea, our creator would have already done that - there must be a reason then for us to be different.

Men and women were created FOR each other. Wherever men and women use the other sex or belittle the opposite sex, that is an individual problem, not a gender problem. Our strengths and weaknesses are supposed to support each other.

I have always respected women and have a MILLION times told my wife how I appreciate her strengths where my weaknesses lie.

Feminism has corrupted many. In my own home, and MANY like it, I live FOR my wife. However, because she has always tried to live ABOVE me, instead for or WITH me, she is now asking me not to leave her. I will leave that choice to a higher source, but you see how this perception of feminism is ruining families ALL OVER THE PLACE.

Whenever there are two EQUAL leaders in one home and one or both refuse to do any submitting, it breaks down. How did this come to be? I believe it to be the continued fight called feminism and how it is displayed in movies and television.

I am tired of submitting 95% percent of the time. Equal? No way. I see it in SO many places even outside of my own experience.



posted on May, 31 2006 @ 10:25 AM
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Originally posted by godservant
Whenever there are two EQUAL leaders in one home and one or both refuse to do any submitting, it breaks down. How did this come to be? I believe it to be the continued fight called feminism and how it is displayed in movies and television.

I am tired of submitting 95% percent of the time. Equal? No way. I see it in SO many places even outside of my own experience.

Of course a relationship is going to fail if it's based on submission and dominance.. sooner or later the other is going to rebel. It has to be based on [mutual] respect and co-operation. Some seem to think that a woman's natural place is to submit.. if that were true feminism never would have gotten off the ground. It is not natural to like being oppressed. I could be quite happy making a meal for my partner.. but if he made a point of ordering me to serve it to him as a show of dominance.. I probably tell him to get-.. it himself.



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