Feminist or FemiNazi? Truth and Myth

Originally posted by Boatphone
I think the larger point of this thread should be that:

1. Women have already won equal rights in America, so what is the need for feminism?

Even if women were paid equally to men, equal rights in America is but one small aspect of overall equality. The 'need' for feminism is to gain that overall equality and to step into their rightful place in society and the world.

There are many goals of the feminist movement and many different types of feminism:

Feminism is theory that men and women should be equal politically, economically and socially.
...
Amazon Feminism - focuses on physical equality
Cultural Feminism - celebrating women's special qualities
Ecofeminism - patriarchial philosophies are harmful
Feminazi - trying to produce as many abortions as possible
Individualist or Libertarian Feminism - individual autonomy, rights, liberty, independence and diversity
Material Feminism - taking the "burden" off women in regards to housework
Moderate Feminism - think that feminism is no longer viable
N.O.W. Feminism (also referred to as Gender Feminism) - women must be granted some special privilages
Pop-Feminism - degrades men in all manners and glorifies women
Radical Feminism - cutting edge of feminist theory from approximately 1967-1975
Separatists - advocate separation from men

Source

edited format.

The fact that you (or anyone else) don't see a need for feminism is not really relevant. 100% of the people don't have to see or understand the need for the need to exist and be valid. If you don't see the need, ok, I get it. But that doesn't mean the need doesn't exist.

My personal beliefs range throughout many of the above types of feminist theories. Some I am in 100% agreement with, others, I totally disagree with. But the point is that each of us has an idea of what feminism means to us. Arguing about feminism is like arguing about color. It exists. there are many shades of it and it can be interpreted differently by each of us.

So when one person says, "There's no need for feminism" they're usually talking about a particular aspect of the movement and their opinion on it, and forgetting or disregarding the whole of the idea.

2. Some "feminists" do use feminism as a platform to bash men.

This is not being disputed. See "Pop-Feminism" above.

My mother raised 4 children on her own. She worked as a certified diesel mechanic for years, working 40-60 hour weeks, and getting paid $#!+ compared to her male co-workers. She had all of the necessary skills, and graduated 1st from NETTTS diesel academy in New England. She eventually lost her job to someone in the prison's work release program, with much less experience and training.

Granted, this was about 15 years ago, but still pretty recent. It was because of this that she went to grad school, and eventually got her PhD. She is now doing well as a teacher, but sometimes mentions that she has to work twice as hard to get half the credit.

I'm telling you this for two resons:
1. We were all raised going to daycare, by a single parent. It was a good daycare, and we all came out above average children.

2. Just because it says something on the books, oesn't make it true. I'm reminded of the seperate but equal rules that applied to blacks in this country. I'm sure plenty of white people didn't get the whole civil rights movement because to them, blacks were already equal. Ask a black person and they'd tell you very different.

Again, if women already have equal rights in America, then what is the need for feminism?

All the examples listed above are either:

1. Already victorious due to equal rights in America.

OR,

2. Pushing for unequality; giving women more rights than men. Which would be wrong.

What is the focus of this thread now?

-- Boat

I don't see total equality. Women are still being payed less for their work, and the powers that be are still oblivious, or just don't care. This of course is a generalization. The same way I know not all of white america was oblivious to the opression of blacks after the civil war, I know not all men are oblivious to these inequalities.

If there was equality, my office would be 50/50. Instead, the women are secretaries, or working in accounting, the men (except for me, my boss, and a few in accounting) have the cushy do nothing jobs. Of course this isn't true everywhere, but if it's noticable in some places, then one must ask why.

Originally posted by Rasobasi420
If there was equality, my office would be 50/50. Instead, the women are secretaries, or working in accounting, the men (except for me, my boss, and a few in accounting) have the cushy do nothing jobs. Of course this isn't true everywhere, but if it's noticable in some places, then one must ask why.

Training perhaps? Most of my pre Navy jobs were clerical. In the military, everyone is paid according to rank and longevity. Military contractors also pay acording to the job and not gender. Some companies have a longevity pay scale. Otherwise, I wouldn't know why a woman would be paid less than a man for the same job. Especially if their length of experience and job longevity were the same.

Originally posted by Rasobasi420
If there was equality, my office would be 50/50. Instead, the women are secretaries, or working in accounting, the men (except for me, my boss, and a few in accounting) have the cushy do nothing jobs. Of course this isn't true everywhere, but if it's noticable in some places, then one must ask why.

This is because the womens rights movements of the 60-70's, just happened! It takes time for the effects to be fully realized. It's not like turning on a light.

-- Boat

Originally posted by BoatphoneAgain, if women already have equal rights in America, then what is the need for feminism?

to continue the fight until it's won

Originally posted by Boatphone
This is because the womens rights movements of the 60-70's, just happened! It takes time for the effects to be fully realized. It's not like turning on a light.

-- Boat

So there isn't equality yet? I'm getting confused Boat, Is there or isn't there equality of the sexes?

[edit on 15-5-2006 by Rasobasi420]

Originally posted by Boatphone
This is because the womens rights movements of the 60-70's, just happened! It takes time for the effects to be fully realized. It's not like turning on a light.

That's 40 years ago, dude! How long does it take? But according to you, we don't need feminism anymore. Which is it?

Look, if you don't think feminism is necessary, that's fine. Others do.

And if you don't understand the focus of this 14-page thread, then I suggest you go back to page one and start reading. If you want to stop talking about it, then please feel free to do that.

I think you just need a new name for it. Like Equalists or something like that.

Feminist just has a very negative look. When you think of it, you think of the extremists and the stereotype, butch lesbians with anti-men issues.

So if you want to promote true equality, dont make the name about one side of the issue. otherwise it promotes a double standard.

Who get's to sit down, woman, we got to be the gentle man.
Who opens dors, so ladys can walk , it's man.
Who must be the first provider in a home, it's man or he is a bom and a pig.
Who get's to defend the home and the family's security, it's man.
Who get's to vote more and complain all the time "we dond have a lady president" it''s woman (in a procetage woman out numbers man so why dont they vote for who they want)
Who usualy get's the rights to have the cildren after a divoce, it's woman.
Are woman favorite for the jobs, YES, it's not the first time when this hapens, it hapend to frieds of mine, just because she put's on makeup and can impress man as advertising as a product she get's the job!!!!!!!!! especialy if it's an office job.
Do woman want to control man, YES, they like to pull the strings and then talk with their girlfriends " hey girl my husband is a pupy, he will do what I want of him to do" in their vision that is a good man "a slave"
Do man want to control woman, hardly, we just want to see a game on tv or go fishing away from wifes rants

I keep telling my wife that but she is like she has to stand by this thing called feminism, it's like a thing she has to do, even if I'm more than fair to her.
Offen a woman says , I want to be independent, well go be independent and live by u'r self in the woods, and you can be independent there.
1 no one can truly be independent in a sociaty.
2 no one can truly be independent in a mariage.
We all depend on each other to play our role, so this is BS.
I think it's just the woman's desire to rule over man, and to make a pupet out of him, it will never hapen.

Originally posted by WolfofWar
Feminist just has a very negative look. When you think of it, you think of the extremists and the stereotype, butch lesbians with anti-men issues.

I don't think of it like that. Perhaps you do. In that case, you should be saying how you think when you hear the term, not how I think.


So if you want to promote true equality, dont make the name about one side of the issue. otherwise it promotes a double standard.

Are you suggesting I somehow change the name of the entire movement that's been active for over 50 years so that you'll feel more comfortable with it? Sorry. If the word itself is what's putting you off, I can't do a thing about that.

My husband is a feminist and trust me, he's not a butch lesbian with anti-men issues! He knows what the word means and doesn't buy into the negative stereotypes. If you insist on letting the word get in your way, then that's your choice.

double post removed

[edit on 16-5-2006 by pepsi78]

Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic
That's 40 years ago, dude!

How long does it take?

But according to you, we don't need feminism anymore. Which is it?

I guess it took about 40 to 50 years. Women and men are treated as equals under the law. So, there is no need for a movement to push for women's right, when women already have full rights.

-- Boat

Originally posted by Boatphone
What is the focus of this thread now?

Isn't it obvious that the focus is YOU? You ruined this thread with your one-line posts just like I said you would. Maybe by bumping it I can save it, but probably you'll just see it as an opportunity to post more emptiness and ignore the dozens of valid questions posed to you. See BP, if you had any real interest in this issue, you wouldn't let this thread sit here with your stupid final post as its tombstone.

In a world where millions of women live in slavery, you are out on the waves, bobbing up and down, miles away from reality. When the fishin's good and the waves are lolling you and Gilligan to sleep in your hammock, who has time to worry about violence or injustice against the weakest members of planet Earth?

Better to just ignore it or use disinfo to pretend it doesn't exist.


[edit on 27-5-2006 by smallpeeps]

In a world where millions of women live in slavery, you are out on the waves, bobbing up and down, miles away from reality. When the fishin's good and the waves are lolling you and Gilligan to sleep in your hammock, who has time to worry about violence or injustice against the weakest members of planet Earth?

1 Not only females are slaves on this planet, man is too, in fact there are more man slaves rather than female slaves.
Take north corea for example, they are all slaves man and woman, you trying to give slaves a color which can not be aplyed.
It's like you imagine this planet being coverd with femails all in hand cufs which is not the case, exept the middle east things are pretty stable and man and female are equal in rights.

2 special treatment is not equal rights, a man has to be a gentelman in order not to be a pig, and has to do extra things which in fact does not relate to equal rights, if he does not comply he is a pig , a bom, a jackass, and the list go's on.

Some of the things included:

A
Ladys always have to walk first thru the dor and man has to open the dor( similar to the bus issue where black people had to sit in the back ) i SEE THIS AS DISCRIMINATING!!!

B
Giving your seat, carying the extra weight , playing dogy and behaving nice to your wife, offen it involves: dress how she wants, get a hait cut how she wants, and yes I forgot , bring lot's of $$$$$$$$$$$$$$ so she can feel secure,did I forget anything?

Antention, not doing any of the things mention above will atract penalisation by words like, pig , bom, jackass, imature, and the worse is sleeping on the cauch lol.

I have not seen a single case where females have to pay for their kids walefare, it's man that does it after a divorce hapens.

I have not seen a single case of divorce where ladys pay a single dime, the man usualy go's banckrupt , she sucks all the money from him, especialy if he is a rich man, havent any of you seen young ladys taking on old guys and geting maried with them just for the money?

Got $$$$$$$$ she is hapy , dont got $$$$$$$$$$$? then it's your bad luck so go some where where you can get some, las vegas would be a good place, a man got to do what a man got to do, it's basicly the same thing, but you pay direct for the service in stead of giving it away in different type of objects.

This things far exced the meaning of equality, this is in fact feminism, feminism is like a cat, I would compare feminism with a cat, an animal that acts nice around you when it needs to get some things from you.
I think this crap got to stop.

I am all for equal rights and for respect betwen man and woman, but this does not relate to feminism , feminism is something else, it's teaching people that man is an inferior being , and this delicate thing called the woman like we dont know what it is must rule and pull the strings while we act like little dogs that bark and wave our tail to comply with this BS.

[edit on 27-5-2006 by pepsi78]

Well I'm a female and I don't see ALL men as one way, people are individuals regardless of their gender. And though males and females are physically different, it's not much of a difference at all since both are still primates. And you see these differences in all species. People take it too far imo.
But on a personal level I am big on environmental things, and I love animals esp my iguana a lot. I guess that could be considered femmy, but honestly I don't care.

Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic





Because we believe in the choice. We believe that a woman shouldn't be forced to have children if they don't want them. Just like men.

I don't know that we eschew motherhood, we just feel the freedom to exercise the choice to not have kids. Some women simply don't want kids. That's ok, right?

Then women shouldn't be having sex. If a man or woman doesn't want to become a parent they should abstain. Saying after the fact however that you essentially "want to have you cake and eat it too" doesn't wash.
Untill I see feminists lobbying just as hard for men to be able to get out of child support for any children the women do have that they didn't want as they do for abortion "rights" I will have trouble believing this ?equality" line.
Fact is if a woman doesn't want to be a mother she isn't forced to, men are forced to pay the financal burden of fatherhood however.
That isn't equality. That is feminist wanting more than equal rights.
Recently there was a court case where after sex, a woman took the mans used condom, froze it, artificially inseminated herself, and then sued for child support. She won, the judge ruled that the man "lost the tright to control his sperm when he engaged in intercourse" yet somehow engaging in intercourse doesn't prevent the woman from exercising her rights to control her eggs.

Did they get paid the same?

And we're not necessarily talking about who can lift more. We're talking about the vast majority of jobs in the workplace that don't require any lifting at all.

And Boatphone, I'm talking about the same job with the same education, the same experience, working the same hours. All things being equal, the woman makes 77% of the man's wage.

WOmen also tend not to plae as much empahsis on wages as men do, tend not to take the more risky jobs, which pay more, are more likely to interrupt thier carreer to take care of children, and are less likely to be willing to put in the same amount of overtime as men are as a group.
As to differing standards it is in many professions, female fire fighters aren't required to meet the same physical standards, nor are female police officers or soldiers. Thats another reason I don't buy "feminists only want equality" if so why aren't they also fighting for equal rights for men in child custody cases? Whay haven't more feminsist groups called for and end to alimoney?
Sorry I don't buy it.

Originally posted by laiguana
Well I'm a female and I don't see ALL men as one way, people are individuals regardless of their gender. And though males and females are physically different, it's not much of a difference at all since both are still primates. And you see these differences in all species. People take it too far imo.
But on a personal level I am big on environmental things, and I love animals esp my iguana a lot. I guess that could be considered femmy, but honestly I don't care.

I agree with you, we are all people, I like a woman that is feminine, but when feminism is taken to the extrem it becomes ugly, for example there is a family husband and wife, from the start the wife will want to decorate the house, at that point her partner in life can not give out any indication because her taste is pure feminine and anithing against feminism becomes a crime, as a result "the guy" can be acused he is ploting against feminism, because feminism has a very wide range and it includes anything, from animals to the moon.
I have nothing against a woman that is feminine, but when it becomes a rope around your nec that is sufocating you it becomes a problem, it becomes a mess and divorce hapens, that is why the divorce rate is sky high in united states, we are just going to end like wild animals living alone and meeting to mate if this thing keeps up, it is made to brake the bound betwen man and woman and it's operated from out side the circle, it's an agenda, feminism is so much more than equal rights , when it go's all the way to the extreme it will cause divorce, discrimination, instability and insecurity.
It drives people crazy, and if we as people cant see it and cant fix it then we are heading to a point where man and female will hate eachother.
woman's rights should be separeted from it and should be viewd as a separate thing, cuz somebody glued feminity to woman's rights.

feminism= pink matter
human rights= neutral aspect that does not have any color, it's for people in general and it does not involve lipsitck, favors , special treatment, and fashon.

Humans rights which involve woman's rights is a totaly different aspect and it concerns people in general with out color, sex , flavor .

Originally posted by pepsi78
1 Not only females are slaves on this planet, man is too, in fact there are more man slaves rather than female slaves.
Take north corea for example, they are all slaves man and woman, you trying to give slaves a color which can not be aplyed.
It's like you imagine this planet being coverd with femails all in hand cufs which is not the case, exept the middle east things are pretty stable and man and female are equal in rights.

Well, I will agree that globalism also creates poor people who are used as de facto slaves. But yes, I am speaking of actual women who are in slavery. Why would you draw the focus away from them and mention men? Obviously men are part of the international slave trade but as has been mentioned, men are generally more able to affect their own situation than women are.

en.wikipedia.org...

According to a broader definition used by Kevin Bales of Free the Slaves, another advocacy group linked with Anti-Slavery International, there are 27 million people (though some put the number as high as 200 million) in slavery today, spread all over the world (Kevin Bales, Disposable People). This is, also according to that group:

- The largest number of people that has ever been in slavery at any point in world history.

-----------------------------------------

en.wikipedia.org...

Women, who form the majority of trafficking victims, are particularly at risk from criminals who exploit lack of opportunities, promise good jobs or opportunities for study, and then force the victims to be prostitutes. Through agents and brokers who arrange the travel and job placements, women are escorted to their destinations and delivered to the employers. Upon reaching their destinations, some women learn that they have been deceived about the nature of the work they will do; most have been lied to about the financial arrangements and conditions of their employment; and all find themselves in coercive and abusive situations from which escape is both difficult and dangerous. The criminals profit while the women suffer rape and other physical and mental violence.

[...]

Due to the illegal nature of trafficking, the exact extent is unknown. A US Government report published in 2003 estimates that between 800,000 and 900,000 people worldwide are trafficked across borders each year, the majority in South East Asia, Japan, Russia and Europe. This figure does not include those who are trafficked internally. [3]

Between 20,000 and 40,000 people are trafficked into the United States each year.[4] According to the Massachusetts based Trafficking Victims Outreach and Services Networkin Massachusetts alone, there were 55 documented cases of human trafficking in 2005 and the first half of 2006. [5] In the United Kingdom, the Home Office estimated that there were up to 1,420 women trafficked into the UK in a 1998 study. [6] Trafficking in people is increasing in Africa, South Asia and into North America. Between 80% and 90% of victims trafficked across international borders are female and the majority of those women and girls are trafficked for sexual exploitation through forced prostitution or sexual slavery.

See that part about 80 to 90 percent being women? That's what I'm talking about.

Women will always bear the worst of whatever crimes are happening on Earth.

2 special treatment is not equal rights

Some of the things included:

A
Ladys always have to walk first thru the dor and man has to open the dor( similar to the bus issue where black people had to sit in the back ) i SEE THIS AS DISCRIMINATING!!!

Why do you see this as discriminating? Discrimination is when a whole group gets EXCLUDED from a benefit. Are you really going to equate modern chivalry or kindness to women as being some imbalance of power between the sexes? Come on now.

Got $$$$$$$$ she is hapy , dont got $$$$$$$$$$$? then it's your bad luck

so go some where where you can get some, las vegas would be a good place, a man got to do what a man got to do, it's basicly the same thing, but you pay direct for the service in stead of giving it away in different type of objects.

Sounds like you've got issues with women in general. I find that men who think women are all "golddiggers" or interested in money, are self delusional and as I mentioned earlier, it's probably frustration and desire which causes them to become hostile and to generalize like you have done above.

I find that a lot of men form their opinion of women based on their own personal experiences with women. If they've only dated golddiggers, they'll see all women as such. If they've only dated controlling, angry women, they see all women as being bitches.

Women are not immune to karma or the temptations of this world. Sure they can become controlling and evil. But let's not allow our personal perspectives on women to color our actions toward the very real problem of Earth's weakest members being tortured and abused at an ever increasing rate.


[edit on 27-5-2006 by smallpeeps]

Women will always bear the worst of whatever crimes are happening on Earth.

You are wrong historicaly, you are rong for the present.
when hittler killed people he did not look if it was a child, a woman or a man, lennyn also didint look at that aspect, in fact most people that die in conflicts are man, I can show you numeros examples in wars where they killed the man and they let the woman and the child survive.
Look at what hapen to the black slaves in United States, black man slaves use to work the hard work while black woman slaves use to serve in the house.
When they put men to the wall and shoot usualy there are no woman among them.
It's not the first time in some corner on the earth they round up man and kill and they let the ladys off the hook.

Why do you see this as discriminating? Discrimination is when a whole group gets EXCLUDED from a benefit. Are you really going to equate modern chivalry or kindness to women as being some imbalance of power between the sexes? Come on now.

Exactly if you dont comply with this rules you get excluded
And let's talk about this shall we.
1 tell me the definition of a gentleman
2 tell me if this definition exists on the woman's side , it does not exist.
I'll be kind to people in general, not to a particular sex , group like you say"kindnes to a woman"that my dear is feminism how about" being kind to people" it's like I have to pick someone like a color or sex, in fact what you were impling like "how about being kind to white people" you would sound rasist, and that is the same thing exept you are puting it all on sex and not on color, you expect some one to be extrasensitive to your kind, it is discriminating.
If I am kind to a woman I wont do it because she is a woman but because she is my mother or my wife and she is part of my family and not because she is a woman, so I'll be just as kind to my brothers to my father.

Sounds like you've got issues with women in general. I find that men who think women are all "golddiggers" or interested in money, are self delusional and as I mentioned earlier, it's probably frustration and desire which causes them to become hostile and to generalize like you have done above.

I'm maryed and my wife is so frustrated cuz she cant mind control me, she get's so frustrated, she like trys tactics on me, talks to her girlfriends too probaly on what strategy should she adopt, I find it funny, usualy we dont argue about it, but I can sence her frustration, you know that desire to pull strings, you know what I find funny when we meet you most of you are angels like, dont say a word, just like a virus it instals than later atacks, in fact here I'll say it, most woman in side of them do not know how to be fair, most of them strugle for power and control.
I dont even try to be unequal, it's just this feminism , tv shows that promotes equal rights with makeup, lipstick , and half naked girls advertising as a product , equal rights with fashon is like advertising the new chip model of tomorrow, every one wants it, it's like turning the female in to a corporation, I predict that will only make things worse, in fact it will turn the female in to a 100% product, and they will be viewd as product

Sorry to say this but in fact is the other way around, I think first ladys must find a way to be fair with them selfs first, and then be fair with their partner, I know how girls feel when they dont think they look good or they think they are overweight, they get frustrated, just put on some more makeup , hide it all, and then put up a fake smile on, and there is no longer a human being there, u'r someone else.
This is exactly just like feminism, it's unfair, it does not relate to human rights, human rights and feminism dont mix, it's BS,

I find that a lot of men form their opinion of women based on their own personal experiences with women. If they've only dated golddiggers, they'll see all women as such. If they've only dated controlling, angry women, they see all women as being bitches.

Dear, it's a fact, it's not like you go directily for the gold, there is a thing worryng alot of woman, and that is insecurity, if she has insecurity with a guy she says bye, especialy if she is a more mature woman, the more money a guy brings home the more secure she feels, and then that she is relaxed she is alitle bit kinder, or acceptable of things , like you know little atentions, like I'll scarch u'r back you scrach mine, well if we can do that with no obligation and just out of free will it would be better, I just get the impresion that I'm rewarded like a stupid dog, good dog now you can wach the game with out me screaming at you.
I dont mind being a dog after all a dog is loyal, he may stink more but he's way better than a cat, he will defend you till he dies.
I just get the impresion that ladys are not that fair , because equality is already here.

Women are not immune to karma or the temptations of this world. Sure they can become controlling and evil. But let's not allow our personal perspectives on women to color our actions toward the very real problem of Earth's weakest members being tortured and abused at an ever increasing rate.

Really karma says it all you do good, good will hapen to you, it's like you do good because your afraid something bad will hapen to you,(insecurity the worst it can hapen to a woman) I say bring it on, I'll go thru it , it's life, now if you were doing good with out any obligations that would be something else, but in stead you pay for your reward with good deeds hoping that good will come back, this is how a woman thinks I already know it, my wife tryed to stick it up my neck, and I told her, huny it's a bunch of crap, I dont need karma, if I help some one hun I'll do it cause I want it and when ever I want to do it, not on command, iot's called living.