Bush rhetoric and oil $$$

Originally posted by TxSecret

Toadmund
The real problem though is human greed and lust for power, no system can withstand that.

I wouldn't go as far as saying that, human greed and lust for power have been around since the beginning and will be until the end. To me it's all about balance. I have no problem with capitalism but I also think a little bit of socialism sprinkled in is needed to "keep the balance". You have to have a RESPONSIBLE social net despite what republicans would like to tell you. If you think otherwise please explain to everyone what would happen if we just axed EVERY social program.. If you can't answer that intelligently than please keep your whining to yourself. 1% of the population controls 80% of the wealth. (Might be more since last time I checked) That 1% wouldn't have that wealth if it wasn't for the 80%, most of which live paycheck to paycheck.

Exactly what are they doing that is illegal? Making a below industry average profit margin? Returning that profit to shareholders, which include elderly retirees? Employing Americans and paying competitive wages?

Was it better when in the 90’s when oil was $15 a bbl and Exxon was losing money and they were capping wells and laying people off?

The “Record Profits” argument is deceptive, please scroll up a bit and you can read that I explain unequivocally how that is.

Form Tiente:

“”Geez people, this is not complicated.

Let’s say I make widgets that sell for $1 and from each one I net a profit of $0.10. On a usual day I sell 10 widgets and make a profit of $1. On one fine day, I sell 20 widgets and I double my profit to a “record” of $2.

Have I robbed anybody? No, my profit margin didn’t change only my revenue did. It’s the same thing with Exxon. If they do record revenue because of record demand, then of course their profits will be record too.

If Exxon had greatly increase their profit margin in the last year, you’d have a case against them, but their margin is slightly below the industry average! And oil company margins are several times lower than a lot of other industries.

If you reduce Exxon’s profit margin (which is small already) then investor dollars will go to investments with a better return and you can bet that won’t increase the supply of oil.””


Again Tiente, you are assuming that the price of that ‘widget’ remains the same. It has not remained the same. What if you are raising the prices for your widget for no reason?
Better yet, if you KNOW that people will buy your widget no matter what. In fact, all life is DEPENDANT on your widgets.

The prices went up without the last great excuse of Katrina. Care to explain WHY the price of your widget went up without a disaster anywhere?

Ok Tieante, let's get focused on something here:

I expounded a little on a tangent but the premise of my main argument here is not "record profits", it's anti trust behaviour. The big 'oddity' to me is the current level of refinery capacity compared to what it was about 10 years ago. I want to see what you know first then I'll butt heads with you on that if you want. I don't want to waste my time otherwise.

You make a good argument El Tiante, but I think the problem is distribution of wealth, perhaps with a little backtracking on our posts you would see our side.
Heck, not everyone can afford to buy stock, a lot of us are just trying to get by, all the while seeing fat cats get rich from the wealth of the land and getting corporate welfare to boot, the wealth of the Earth that belongs to us all.
From a humanistic viewpoint, if the earth belongs to all humanity, why do we think that some of us own more of planet earth at the expense to the rest of us who live here?
But that is not reality, we've been fooled into believing greed is admirable, even if it does mean your own pockets are picked.

What it boils down to is what we know is the way it is, and we blindly accept it. It's the life we know. If we lived in a socialist system where everybody was equal and nobody had want, and people talked of introducing capitalism, there would be outrage!
But of course, some would like the prestige of being 'better than thou'.

Now supposing an apocalypse happened and the 'devil' was banished from earth, what is the devil?
What is killing us today that will be killed off in the future 'end of' scenario?
Our current world system will not survive.

Originally posted by StarLord
Form Tiente:

The prices went up without the last great excuse of Katrina. Care to explain WHY the price of your widget went up without a disaster anywhere?

Gas prices are up because oil prices are up. In large measure, oil prices are up because of increase demand from India and China as part of an expanding world economy. It’s simply a matter of supply not keeping up with demand.

However, the recent run-up is because futures traders (wisely) believe future supplies are in doubt, by say… oh I don’t know, maybe Iran threatening to NUKE everybody in earshot.

Because future supplies are in doubt, consumers (countries, not you) are competing for future contracts, this causes the price to rise.

Now why do gas prices SHOOT UP in the wake of a disaster like Katrina? It’s a little unintuitive so pay attention.

Most retailers make around $0.06 a gallon (no kidding) so their margins are thin. Now, let’s say I own a gas station and my storage tanks are full. One day a Hurricane hits the gulf knocking-out the refineries and my wholesaler tells me my next load of gas is going to cost me 0.25 more a gallon. I have to immediately pass on that increase because if I don’t I won’t have any money to buy the next load.

Originally posted by Toadmund
From a humanistic viewpoint, if the earth belongs to all humanity, why do we think that some of us own more of planet earth at the expense to the rest of us who live here?

The earth may belong to everyone, but my LABOR belongs to ME. I have the right to charge the most I can get for my labor. Any restriction on that is a restriction on my freedom.

So If I pay a country to allow me to for drill oil on their land and I sell that oil at a profit, what claim do you have on my profit? Was any of your money risked in finding the oil? Did you drill for the oil? Did you build the pipeline that transported it to a port? Did you build the tanker that transported it to a refinery?

Will you make up for my losses if the market price for my oil falls below the price I contracted with the country I’m drilling in or if I can't find any?

So even though you didn't risk any of your money or invest a moment of your time in getting my profit; you feel you have a claim on the fruits of MY labor? This is your idea of fair?

[edit on 27-4-2006 by El Tiante]

[edit on 27-4-2006 by El Tiante]

[edit on 27-4-2006 by El Tiante]

Sir,

We disagree on every issue currently at hand. But you get my vote because ever single thing you said in that last few posts was 100% true and correct. None of this refutes my points of being less vampiric and to be a little more compassionate to the human average standard of living, or at least the American version.

I still think it is rediculous that people continue to record record profits, despite how "marginal" they may be, while the entire country (or at least the bottom 70% or so) is staring a very possible serious recession right in the eye. We are a single oops away, admit it or not. If GM or Ford can't hold it together, we tank. If many more folks decide to trade oil in Euros, we tank. If some crazy act of God like Katrina happens again, or worse, twice, we tank. If we suffer another terrorist attack, we could tank. It is becomming increasingly obvious to the world that our greenbacks are pretty much based on credit...and how shaky is our word?

How long can The Man stand up on your idiot box and tell you everything is going to be alright?

How long can we keep our heads in the sand and pretend its not comming to a screeching halt?

Somethin's gotta' give, folks. I promise no matter how many people tell you its ok, and all is well, all is not well. It WILL get worse before it gets better. We can play Tientes role and convince everyone that it is ok with graphs and analogies, but the common man knows it is happening. He doesnt have to learn it from Andy Serwer on CNN, or from Noam Chomsky...he will know because he will look back one day and remember the day when he only worked 55 hours a week, and owned a home in a good neighborhood, and his wife only worked part time so she could raise the kids too, and they both had a car in a garage, and they saved a bit so little Timmy had a college fund...and they're going to realize how they were deceived so well...so cunningly....that they never realized they were practically slaves and they let it happen...

[edit on 27-4-2006 by DaFunk13]

Tiante,

Where do you deaw the line between fair and rape? You know everybody must buy your 'widget' when do you stop raising the price and gouging the public?

I notice you ignored my question regarding the raising the price of your widget where there were no available excuses like disasters.

I also notice you ignored my question regarding Diesel fuel which is cheaper to make and costs MORE than gasolene. Care to explaint that to me?

You have voted El Tiante for the Way Above Top Secret award. You have used all of your votes for this month.

Everyone please give a round of applause to the new MASTER OF SUGAR COATING TURDS Award!

Seekerof passed that torch and he's good so cherish it.

I hear Bush may be needing a new White House Press Secretary...you might want to flip that resume...

Originally posted by StarLord
Tiante,

Where do you deaw the line between fair and rape? You know everybody must buy your 'widget' when do you stop raising the price and gouging the public?

I notice you ignored my question regarding the raising the price of your widget where there were no available excuses like disasters.

I also notice you ignored my question regarding Diesel fuel which is cheaper to make and costs MORE than gasolene. Care to explaint that to me?

I don't have to the market will. If you think Exxon has complete pricing power, then why don't they charge $1,000 a gallon? The reason why they don't is because they can't.

At a $1,000 a gallon no one would by buy any gas. If gas were free, we'd all be driving Escaldes. But of then, no one would be in the business of producing gas, so we wouldn't have any.

So somewhere between free and $1,000 a gallon is the fair market price. That price happens to be the price we're paying now.

Diesel is more expensive now simply because the demand for it has increased. The economy here and around the world is expanding. That means more trucks transporting more goods. That means more people are getting wealthy. Fantastic!

Since supply of crude are tight, the supply of crude to make diesel can't keep up with the demand.

[edit on 27-4-2006 by El Tiante]

[edit on 27-4-2006 by El Tiante]

Originally posted by DaFunk13
Sir,

I still think it is rediculous that people continue to record record profits, despite how "marginal" they may be, while the entire country (or at least the bottom 70% or so) is staring a very possible serious recession right in the eye. We are a single oops away, admit it or not. If GM or Ford can't hold it together, we tank. If many more folks decide to trade oil in Euros, we tank. If some crazy act of God like Katrina happens again, or worse, twice, we tank. If we suffer another terrorist attack, we could tank. It is becomming increasingly obvious to the world that our greenbacks are pretty much based on credit...and how shaky is our word?


[edit on 27-4-2006 by DaFunk13]

Nothing bad will happen. We're paying about the same price now we did in 1981, BUT America gets about twice as much GDP per bbl of oil as we did then.

It wasn't the end of world then and it won't be the end of the world now. At worst it will result in a mild recession (unlikely) or shave a bit off growth (more likely).

In that last five years America has survived a stock market crash, terrorist attacks, war ,devastating hurricanes and oil shocks and we're still chugging along at > 3% growth. Hell, from what I've read Q1 GDP growth could come in as high as FIVE PERCENT! Unemployment is less than %5 and the debt and deficit are shrinking!

Cling to your marxist teddy bear if you'd like, but history will pass you by.



[edit on 27-4-2006 by El Tiante]

Originally posted by DaFunk13
Sir,

We disagree on every issue currently at hand. But you get my vote because ever single thing you said in that last few posts was 100% true and correct. None of this refutes my points of being less vampiric and to be a little more compassionate to the human average standard of living, or at least the American version.

[edit on 27-4-2006 by DaFunk13]

If wish to use you time and money to make the world a better place, that's great, don't let me stop you. I gave a couple of grand to Catholic Charities (a great org) and my local Parish. That's the thing with letting people keep the reward for their labors, they can be generous with it!

However if you try to restrict company profits then investor dollars will go elsewhere. Let's say you don't like the high cost of health car, so you mandate that doctors can only make minimum wage. Do you think that would result in more doctors of fewer?

Similarly, lets say you became President and decided that no company could make more than one million dollars in profit (or whatever, pick a number). Would that policy attract more of fewer investor dollarsto America? Would that policy make us richer or poorer?

Productive and ambitious people will always go where their talents, efforts and money are most rewarded. That's why they had to build walls around communist countries TO KEEP PEOPLE IN.

[edit on 27-4-2006 by El Tiante]

[edit on 27-4-2006 by El Tiante]

El Tiante-

Statistics can be easily distorted... but profit margins can't.

Originally posted by white4life420
El Tiante-

Statistics can be easily distorted... but profit margins can't.

Exactly. So then you must a agree with me. Either that or don't understand what profit margin is.

For ever $1 of gas Exxon sells they make a little less than 0.10, slightly less than the industry average. If they sell $100 of it, they make $10. That just doesn't strike me as an outrageous profit.

If you want to cling to you warm little NWO-BUSHCO-GREYS-REPTILIANS-TRI-LATERIAL-CO-FREEMASONS-EVVVILL-OIL-COs conspiracy, be my guest, but you won't find too many professional economist or spot traders that will agree with you. Maybe they're part of the conspiracy...

If you want to lower oil prices, call you congressman and senator and tell him you want ANWAR, the Gulf, the cost of CA and everyplace else open for drilling. Supply margins right now are extremely tight, so any oil produced above the margin will lower the price. The more the better.

Originally posted by El Tiante
So somewhere between free and $1,000 a gallon is the fair market price. That price happens to be the price we're paying now.

Exactly...of course, this is after you figure the big-wigs that make more money in a day than most of us make in a year. Not just the ceos, but the politicians both domestic and abroad that make killings on incentives and perks and what-not. We are still being robbed by a bunch or rich old men who don't care about the common good. If they did, the profit margins wouldn't be record...they would just be enough. They can raise their profits back up after we get our oil rigs in the gulf at 100% again, or when the disruptions in the Mideast get ironed out.

But they don't. Why? Ask Tiete. Its because demand went up. China decides they like cars too. India starts to utilize some new tech. Some hurricanes cut suppy, yet demand is only increasing. It makes sense to an economist...no doubt. But ask the average american working two jobs just to keep the mortgage and car payments up to date, and then has to cope with gas doubling. You think he is simpathetic to the capitalist cause? The average consumer doesnt have stockpiles of cash to invest in stock. The only people who gain from this are the ones who are already rich.

You aren't fooling anyone with your half-truths, Tiete. We can all dance around and pretend that these lovely oil barons are investing this money back into their communities, or into new technology to cut our demand for oil, but we all know it isnt true. They love it. They sell something that we cannot do without, and so long as it still pumps from the ground we will still pay whatever it costs. When do we hit the ceiling? $10/gal? Will you still be whistling the Suppy&Demand tune if IT hits the fan? I don't see anything poised to relieve us here...maybe you do?

Diesel is more expensive now simply because the demand for it has increased. The economy here and around the world is expanding. That means more trucks transporting more goods. That means more people are getting wealthy. Fantastic!

(read: This means more rich guys are getting weathy(er)at the expense of us regular folks.)

Your planet clearly operates on a different set a rules the one the rest of us are on. All you do is blather populist / Marxist rhetoric sprinkled with some baseless doom saying. I’ve present actual fact that Exxon’s profits are not exorbitant and that their prices are product of increased demand coupled with tight supply AND EPA mandated formulation changes (MTBE to ethanol).

Again, if Exxon and rest have complete pricing power then why isn’t gas $10 a gallon now, or $50 or $100?

And if you reduce Exxon’s already small and below industry profit margins, do you think that will put more oil on the market or less? If your boss cuts your pay, will that encourage to work more or will it make you think about getting another job?


[edit on 28-4-2006 by El Tiante]

Was reading a two page spread in the Globe and Mail at work last night about the shrinking population and ill health and other problems in Russia, and one particular quote I had to post here:

Russia is wealthy enough to improve its health system. Strong energy prices have fuelled a 65-per-cent increase in the country's GDP since 1999. But a huge portion of that money goes into the bank accounts of Russian billionaires, who doubled their net worth last year, while the health system remains miserably inadequate.

www.theglobeandmail.com...
See, there is something not quite right about capitalism methinks. Me also think capitalism has been rammed down out throats as the best system there is. People with money can buy influence and change mass thought. The proof is in the pudding, it's a sick system that needs medicine real bad.
Who owns the trees, oil and Natural resources in Russia? All Russians, or just the lucky few?
Why is it not law that the people own the resources and should get a fair cut or piece of the country pie? Probably because the fat cats made it that way, they manipulate the law to favour and enrich themselves at the expense of the common man.
It's theft! Think about it.
Money speaks loudly.

[edit on 28-4-2006 by Toadmund]

Originally posted by Toadmund
Was reading a two page spread in the Globe and Mail at work last night about the shrinking population and ill health and other problems in Russia, and one particular quote I had to post here:

[edit on 28-4-2006 by Toadmund]

Right, Russia problems are a result of 15 years of capitalism (if you can call it that) it has NOTHING to do with 75 years of communism...

Russia problems are a result of corruption. Corruption is like an extra tax on labor a capital. Smart and ambitious people don't want to pay that tax so they go somewhere where they don't have to.

I am simply pointing out that capitalism is not the best system. Can you not agree just a bit on that, or must you deny all truths? We are immersed in it, it's all we know.

Communism done right is a good thing, but it too has faults.

One of the biggest faults of all, of which we all can agree is human nature, that can corrupt even the best systems of government.
I think it should be made law that all of us are owners of the land, not just a few greedy bass turds.
Like I said before in different words, if the few take OUR resources, sell OUR own resources back to us, and get rich doing it, is that right?
Where's our cut?

I know my posts are sounding idealogical, but I am thinking outside the box, well, at least looking out some eyeholes I made in the box, I look out and I see the light.
Yet I am still trapped inside the box.

The only cure for capitalism I can see is a WORLDWIDE effort to tax excessive profits and to pump that money back into social welfare programs, why shouldn't all that money be put to good use for us all instead of the 'elite' (greed mongers), why not?
They can still profit, and our lives get better, winwin.