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Bush rhetoric and oil $$$

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posted on Apr, 27 2006 @ 08:22 AM
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Originally posted by DaFunk13
Trying to shift our little debate in your favor eh? I never said cars aren't more efficient now. Don't change the subject. "Adjusted" is relative to the adjuster, my friend. That adjustment doesn't take into account the vast array of things that make up our economy. Just gas, and better cars. I spend my money on other things also. We are also a little more spread out. There is also many, many more of us...hence, more cars, more travel. Have any graphs for average cost of living over the past 25 years to correlate with your gas prices and fuel efficiency ratings?



If you can’t appreciate or understand the role inflation plays in commodity pricing, then I’m not sure what to say to you; except, that your thinking is at odds with just about every economist on earth.


[edit on 27-4-2006 by El Tiante]




posted on Apr, 27 2006 @ 08:47 AM
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Inflated or not...and I agree they are....they are still RECORD profits. Everything is affected by inflation. Not just gas. I understand that our paying 3 bucks is not to be directly compared with the 25 cents we payed yesteryear. I am pretty well versed in basic economics and statistics as well. But they are still RECORD profits, adjusted or not. We are paying more in relation to everything...cost of goods as well as average income. I don't need a graph to explain that.

And thanks for playing nice.



posted on Apr, 27 2006 @ 09:15 AM
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They are only “Record Profits” when measured in UNADJUSTED DOLLARS. It is deceptive metric designed to stir-up the ignorant that either don’t understand or can’t be bothered to understand economics.

Their PROFIT MARGIN is really rather small and the only reason why the “Record Profits” were so large is because their REVENUE was up. That is, consumers were buying their products in RECORD AMOUNTS.

What would you do? Have Exxon stop selling oil? Do think oil producers selling less oil would cause the price to drop? Even if you allowed Exxon to sell only half the oil they did last year their PROFIT MARGIN would be the same, which is less than 10%.

If the notion of profit margin is unfamiliar to you, then please take some time to learn about it before replying to my post.


[edit on 27-4-2006 by El Tiante]

[edit on 27-4-2006 by El Tiante]



posted on Apr, 27 2006 @ 09:17 AM
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[edit on 27-4-2006 by El Tiante]



posted on Apr, 27 2006 @ 09:24 AM
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Personally, all it took for me was a look at what that jackass from Exxon Lee Raymond's retirement package looks like. $400 Million? What a gluttenous, miserable excuse for a person. What would one POSSIBLY want with that much money, at his age?

When he appeared in front of congress (not sworn in, correct?) his reply to the question of why were gas-prices high: "We're all in this together."

Yuck.



posted on Apr, 27 2006 @ 09:44 AM
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Originally posted by ludaChris

Originally posted by Vitchilo
Bush did this move because it's what the most important for those who vote for him, the rednecks. For the rednecks, the gas price is extremely important so if the president lower it, it will be a good president regardless of what he does.


Why do you have to ASSume that only rednecks voted for the man, if I recall he won Ohio, Indiana, Missouri, Iowa all above the Mason Dixon line. Nevada, New Mexico, and Arizona out west. So whats your point? When you assume you make an ass out of you not me.


I would have say, still support him, not voted for him. The redneck are a big percentage of the US population, around 30%+, so this is why Bush have an approval rating of about 30%.



posted on Apr, 27 2006 @ 09:56 AM
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Originally posted by El Tiante
They are only “Record Profits” when measured in UNADJUSTED DOLLARS. It is deceptive metric designed to stir-up the ignorant that either don’t understand or can’t be bothered to understand economics.


More stabs at peoples intelligence huh?


Their PROFIT MARGIN is really rather small and the only reason why the “Record Profits” were so large is because their REVENUE was up. That is, consumers were buying their products in RECORD AMOUNTS.


I blame China and India...your point is still moot. Supply and demand. Again...I understand this concept, but they are still raking in record amounts.


What would you do? Have Exxon stop selling oil? Do think oil producers selling less oil would cause the price to drop? Even if you allowed Exxon to sell only half the oil they did last year their PROFIT MARGIN would be the same, which is less than 10%.


I thought you would never ask. They can sell their oil. I am no idiot, sir. I understand that selling less oil would not cause the price to drop, only increase. Supply and Demand....again...I understand. But an AMERICAN BUSINESS that cared about the American people would ease the cost a wee bit, since they ARE selling a LOT more oil right? More oil, more $. The men behind the curtain of these oil companies are not going hungry, lots of Americans are. What says they have to charge similar amounts to a decade ago when consuption wasn't so high?
Don't answer that...its GREED.


If the notion of profit margin is unfamiliar to you, then please take some time to learn about it before replying to my post.


Come now friend. I learned this stuff in my first macro econ class years ago. You are far from introducing advanced economical concepts. I'll admit when you get over my head. That has yet to happen. You're just trying to sugar coat turds still.



posted on Apr, 27 2006 @ 09:56 AM
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Well, Yeeeee, freakin Haaaaaaa!

El Tiante said:



They are only “Record Profits” when measured in UNADJUSTED DOLLARS. It is deceptive metric designed to stir-up the ignorant that either don’t understand or can’t be bothered to understand economics.

Now, I am only halfway through my first coffee so,...
Well, your American dollars are falling like a Peso lately, compare that with the increase in gas prices and whammo!
People, inflation or not, were in better economical shape in 1981. Wether your chart is right, or just a fudge job we can't deny the prices are nuts.
Hell, a lot of us never even bought gas or needed it 25 years ago, besides, this is now, that was then.
It's a different world now, boy is it ever



posted on Apr, 27 2006 @ 11:21 AM
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When the Going gets tough, the Wierd turn Pro. In this instance the Wierd are the oil companies. Any way the media likes to paint it, the bottom line is that the common people fill their greedy coffers.

Remember when Diesel used to be way cheaper than regular gasolene?

If I am not mistaken, isn't it cheaper to come up with the finished diesel product than it is to keep refining it to make gasolene?

If I haven't missed the base yet,

Tiante, hasn't it dawned on you that the Oil Corporations have collectively joined hands in our pockets on this one single point? You are aware of course that EVERY THING HAULED BY TRUCKS USES DIESEL correct? From Coast to Coast, 24 hrs a day. Those monster tractor rigs get what, 6 to 8 miles per gallon on diesel if that?
Man if that's not a major financial coup I don't know what is.

It smaks of the Idea Ma Bell came up with right after she was split up by the Govt.
To SELL us the telephone we had been 'renting' in our residence for the last 20 years. What a brain storm! What a rip off!!



posted on Apr, 27 2006 @ 11:27 AM
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Originally posted by StarLord
When the Going gets tough, the Wierd turn Pro.


On a side note...Thumbs up for the HST quote. Gosh I miss that guy.



posted on Apr, 27 2006 @ 11:51 AM
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Geez people, this is not complicated.

Let’s say I make widgets that sell for $1 and from each one I net a profit of $0.10. On a usual day I sell 10 widgets and make a profit of $1. On one fine day, I sell 20 widgets and I double my profit to a “record” of $2.

Have I robbed anybody? No, my profit margin didn’t change only my revenue did. It’s the same thing with Exxon. If they do record revenue because of record demand, then of course their profits will be record too.

If Exxon had greatly increase their profit margin in the last year, you’d have a case against them, but their margin is slightly below the industry average! And oil company margins are several times lower than a lot of other industries.

If you reduce Exxon’s profit margin (which is small already) then investor dollars will go to investments with a better return and you can bet that won’t increase the supply of oil.




[edit on 27-4-2006 by El Tiante]



posted on Apr, 27 2006 @ 12:12 PM
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And another thing,

Why is discussing a companies profits in unadjusted dollars deceptive?

The rational used to decry Exxon’s profits as measured in raw dollars, could just as easily be used to argue that minimum wage workers are making RECORD pay. It’s true that the minimum wage is larger (in raw dollars) than it ever has been, a RECORD HIGH!

However, because of inflation, that RECORD HIGH (!) wage doesn’t really buy more than it ever has, perhaps less.



[edit on 27-4-2006 by El Tiante]

[edit on 27-4-2006 by El Tiante]



posted on Apr, 27 2006 @ 12:30 PM
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The Oil Companies are making record profits every quarter since last year. Take a look at Exxon-Mobil, nearly a 1 billion dollar profit in one quarter of a year!!! Us so-called "mis-informed" Americans know that something is up with the oil companies and the men in the White House. Price gouging is still going strong and it looks like there is no end in sight. But don't tell Bush & Cheney that, they may lie.


As for another reason why the price for a gallon of unleaded go go juice is about three dollars a gallon is simple. OPEC is charging seventy bucks a barrel for light sweet crude on the N.Y.M.E. (New York Merchantile Exchange) and they are getting by with it!!! Plus, the Saudis are lining their damn pockets because of this. If I'm not mistaken, Bush & Cheney are making about 30 billion a year off of the Saudi Oil Empire.

Another reason as to why the prices are so high is that there is basically no competition out there now. Used to be you hundreds, if not thousands, of petroleum companies that dotted the world. Now we are down to seven, a measley seven petroleum companies worldwide. And you can name them all on less than two hands.

1. Exxon-Mobil
2. Chevron-Texaco
3. BPAmico
4. Shell Royal Dutch
5. Sunoco
6. Petrobras
7. Petronas
8. That Russian company I cannot think of


And people today say there is more competition? pfffffft.



posted on Apr, 27 2006 @ 12:38 PM
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Tiante,

Based on that same rational, and analogy...

If you continued to sell record #'s of widgets, or whatever, despite economic unrest and just general tough times for the American people...wouldn't you cut the cost a lil' bit? Instead of charging your $1.00, perhaps you could still enjoy a nice little living on 96 cents a pop? Matter of fact, they would still make more money than last year. This is my beef. I have said a hundred times that I understand your basic economic principals. My problem is with the oil companies ever tight grip on the profits they still make despite the ever present "low profit margin."

Someone already mentioned Exxons CEO's nice little benefits package. How American is it to watch your fellow citizens suffer a huge crunch while you cruise around the Hamptons in your Benz? Or is that too socialist of an ideal? I am not trying to advocate Robbin Hood here, but it seems a little brotherly help rather than the usual "but its only 8%" would help us all out a bit. Its still billions and billions when we are looking down the barrel of a tough next few years...economically that is.

I think we agree on a lot of these points. You are just steadfast in your capitalist principals and I see them as vampirism. I think greed has made us all forget that we have to share this rock until we destroy it, and some seem too excited to sweep the less fortunate under a rug. Its not economics with me...its compassion.

[edit on 27-4-2006 by DaFunk13]



posted on Apr, 27 2006 @ 12:39 PM
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I've never liked Bush and co.. even back when he was govenor of my state. All these 'gestures' Bush is making over gas prices are purely token and politically motivated to benefit the elephants during political season only. The biggest travesty is how Bush still has the wool pulled over the eyes of the religious right. Mr skull and bones wolf in "reborn" sheeps clothing.. What a joke. It really irks me that alot of the people who now dislike Bush were the same lemmings who voted for him. I'm trying really hard to NOT develop a hatred for people like this with no forsight whatsoever. Hopefully people will wake up this time and vote intelligently instead of being simple minded.



posted on Apr, 27 2006 @ 12:48 PM
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Originally posted by DaFunk13
Tiante,

Based on that same rational, and analogy...

If you continued to sell record #'s of widgets, or whatever, despite economic unrest and just general tough times for the American people...wouldn't you cut the cost a lil' bit? Instead of charging your $1.00, perhaps you could still enjoy a nice little living on 96 cents a pop? Matter of fact, they would still make more money than last year. This is my beef. I have said a hundred times that I understand your basic economic principals. My problem is with the oil companies ever tight grip on the profits they still make despite the ever present "low profit margin."

Someone already mentioned Exxons CEO's nice little benefits package. How American is it to watch your fellow citizens suffer a huge crunch while you cruise around the Hamptons in your Benz? Or is that too socialist of an ideal? I am not trying to advocate Robbin Hood here, but it seems a little brotherly help rather than the usual "but its only 8%" would help us all out a bit. Its still billions and billions when we are looking down the barrel of a tough next few years...economically that is.

I think we agree on a lot of these points. You are just steadfast in your capitalist principals and I see them as vampirism. I think greed has made us all forget that we have to share this rock until we destroy it, and some seem too excited to sweep the less fortunate under a rug. Its not economics with me...its compassion.

[edit on 27-4-2006 by DaFunk13]


Corporations are not charities. They exist for the exclusive and sole purpose of returning maximum profit to shareholders.

If you want to participate in Exxon’s profits, then buy their stock. If you want lower oil prices, call you congressman and tell him you want to opened ANWAR for drilling and more refineries built.

And let’s say Exxon did reduce their margins, who would that effect? Well for one, many pensions are invested in Exxon, so reducing their margin would reduce the income of retirees. Are you calling for the elderly to do with less so you can save a bit at the pump?



posted on Apr, 27 2006 @ 12:59 PM
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Yes TX, I agree, seems like a sizable portion of a population goes not with what they believe is right, but go with what all the other people are doing.
If it's 'in' to be pro-Bush, they'll be that, but now they are on the anti-Bush train, mostly because people go with the current 'trend'.
Ba-aa-aa-a! Ba-aa-aa-a!
At least make an educated choice, not the popular choice!

And DaFunk, I agree, people are pro capitalist because it is the system we know and were taught that it's just the best system around. To me capitalism is the legitimisation for greedy people to steal our natural resources and destroy the planet and turn the rest of us into manipulated economic slaves for the reward of riches, capitalism does NOT make us free!
Capitalism is destroying us, and our planet.
It's true.

A socialist democracy would be a good way to get the power of the people back, to re-distribute the wealth that belongs to us all, and not just to have the 'priveledge' to have a job to serve our masters for peanuts and eroding pensions while they are totally ignorant of the plight of the 'stiffs' while they suck the juicy meat of life, that is our blood.

The real problem though is human greed and lust for power, no system can withstand that.



posted on Apr, 27 2006 @ 01:01 PM
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El Tiante
Corporations are not charities. They exist for the exclusive and sole purpose of returning maximum profit to shareholders.



Give us a break.. I don't give a flying rats patootie if corporations aren't charities. If they are doing something illegal which I believe they are then they should go down in flames. What is this illegal behaviour I speak of? It's the collusion that went on and is going on between the top oil companies concerning refninery capacity. I'm sure there are many other anti trust violations but thats the worst of it as far as I can see. I'm surprised that there is not more focus on these issue here. I don't have the time at the moment to hold everyones hand but you can sure Google and find out I'm sure. How is big oil getting away with all this anti trust behaviour? Alot of it has to do with how you vote. Instead of being a corporate appologist based on some shallow premise why don't you look into the issue deeper and become informed.
It's also pathetic how big oil is making record profits but STILL whine about paying taxes. Sad indeed.



posted on Apr, 27 2006 @ 01:08 PM
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Well, I don't expect charity per se. What I do expect is for Uncle Sam to stop giving tax breaks to companies posting RECORD PROFITS at the expense of the average American's livelyhood, and to stop bum-rushing oil rich regions for motives that are either misunderstood, or outright lies.

Its bad enought we have to deal with numerous devastating hurricanes that disrupt flow...and continue to this day...but we also have the above stated things to add. If asking corporations to step back and care about the American people is a communist idea...so be it. We are planting seeds for a monster of discent, and I don't mean another protest. Somethings gotta give. If we are going to play dog-eat-dog past the point we are at now, things may get violent.

I agree with Skeptic Overlord that this is definately another issue to sidetrack the people, but this isnt just a media induced slight of hand to confuse people like illegal immigration or avian flu. This is really affecting the daily grind. People are not only reading the articles...but feeling it in their pockets.



posted on Apr, 27 2006 @ 01:15 PM
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Toadmund
The real problem though is human greed and lust for power, no system can withstand that.


Actually, when the Good Lord shows up again he will "withstand that".

Human greed and lust for power have been around since the beginning and will be until the end. To me it's all about balance. I have no problem with capitalism but I also think a little bit of socialism sprinkled in is needed to "keep the balance". You have to have a RESPONSIBLE social net despite what republicans would like to tell you. If you think otherwise please explain to everyone what would happen if we just axed EVERY social program.. If you can't answer that intelligently than please keep your whining to yourself. 1% of the population controls 80% of the wealth. (Might be more since last time I checked) That 1% wouldn't have that wealth if it wasn't for the 80%, most of which live paycheck to paycheck.

Geez.. I'm EXTREMELY pro life but I'm voting mostly dem on the upcoming elections..(Especially for the presidential slot) What does that tell you.
It's difficult voting the lesser of the evils but that's what my heart tells me to do and I hope more people will vote this way in the future. Kinda' boils down to morals versus economy but i don't think it will matter WHO you vote for when it comes to morals, you ain't going to get them. Might as well vote the economy. I'd rather benefit a BUNCH of people instead of just a few. Just a thought. Of course..if a republican presidential candidate shows up that has a "real" moral compass then I might actually vote for him but I don't think that's going to happen.






[edit on 27-4-2006 by TxSecret]



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