Evolution: the conspiracy of creationism's favorite son, Hovind., page 1
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Topic started on 25-10-2002 @ 07:04 AM by William
Hello everyone....

What are the possible motives of Kent Hovind?

Big surprise, I was discussing evolution versus creationism with someone the other day, and Kent Hovind was brought up with his "$250,000 challenge" for anyone who can prove evolution. My debater took great pride in pointing out that it hadn't been awarded yet.

So, I looked at this "challenge" and found it to be a deliberate hoax.
www.drdino.com...

Here's are the five major points of his "challenge":

[Evolution:]
" 1. Brought time, space, and matter into existence from nothing.
2. Organized that matter into the galaxies, stars, and at least nine planets around the sun. (This process is often referred to as cosmic evolution.)
3. Created the life that exists on at least one of those planets from nonliving matter (chemical evolution).
4. Caused the living creatures to be capable of and interested in reproducing themselves.
5. Caused that first life form to spontaneously diversify into different forms of living things, such as the plants and animals on the earth today (biological evolution)."

He later states as a means to collect the cash-o-la:

"Prove beyond reasonable doubt that the process of evolution is the only possible way the observed phenomena could have come into existence."

Anyone see the problem here?

Item Five is the only item in his list of five that falls into the branch of science defined as evolution. Evolution does not define the "how" of the universe's and earth's formation, nor does it concern itself with the manner in which life happened. Instead, as most of us know, this branch of science examines the way life changed, over millions of years.

I've seen Hovind's videos and his live presentations to Churches... this little piece escaped my notice until now. He uses his "challenge" as a basis for proving evolution must be wrong since no evolutionist can provide the proper evidence. Well, it's designed that way and he knows it.

Hovind is the worst kind of huckster, playing on people's faith and emotion to make a buck, and lying to tens of thousands of people in hundreds of church congregations.

His motives are cash. Plain and simple. Therefore, any of his claims are of exceedingly dubious quality and should be dismissed.


reply posted on 25-10-2002 @ 03:15 PM by William
That's a very bizarre post Stewards...

Since I haven't seen the creationist materials you provided, I can't comment on them directly. However, you brought up topics which are oft repeated in the debate of creationism versus science.

In relation to the sun, I'm only aware of creationists claims that the sun is actually shrinking. No matter. I am interested, however, in how you decide that this is a steady-state system?

A brief discussion of this is found in ``Looking Inside the Sun'', ASTRONOMY, March 1989. Analysis of historical records of eclipses and transits give varying numbers. One result gives 2.25 arcseconds per century, similar to the above figure. Another result gives an upper limit of 0.3 arcsecond per century, but is also consistent with no shrinkage. Two more historical analyses indicate that the sun was a bit larger a century ago than today. Current measurements indicate that the sun is not now shrinking.

The statements about helium are false as well (that helium should have built up from U-decay over time). Our current level of helium is exactly as predicted. Check out the following sources for more information:
Calculations on the Composition of the terrestrial Planets -- Reynolds & Summers, Journal of Geophysical Research vol 74, no 10 May 15, 1969 p 2494
The formation of the Earth from Planetesimals -- Wetherill, Scientific American June 1981
Atmospheric and Hydrospheric Evolution on the Primitive Earth -- Cloud, Preston E., Jr., Science 160, (17 May 1968), pp 729 - 736
The Effect of a Planet's Size on the Evolution of its Atmosphere -- Mart, Michael H, published in some conference or another; I got a copy from the author. (ave Allen davea@ll-vlsi.ARPA)
Our Evolving Atmosphere -- Is Anyone There? by Isacc Asimov


I'd rather this discussion not degrade into a creation versus science debate (unless it remains civil... we'll see if that can happen), so your analogy of watering a twig is a bit childish don't you think? Everything evolves. However, for this discussion we're concerned with biological evolution ... is change in the properties of populations of organisms that transcend the lifetime of a single individual. The ontogeny of an individual is not considered evolution; individual organisms do not evolve.


I'm more concerned with the tactics of lies and deceit by one of creationism's loudest voices, Kent Hovind. How can Christians of sound faith continue to believe creation versus science material that is based on lies?



[Edited on 25-10-2002 by William]



reply posted on 26-10-2002 @ 12:17 PM by Toltec
Estragon how much do you know about Bells theorem?

Bells Theorem

And what about the issue of Microtublules?

Microtublules

Have you ever heard of a theory known as Eternal Oscillating Universe?

EOU

And what of the Speed of Gravity?

Graivity


reply posted on 26-10-2002 @ 07:47 PM by Estragon
Bellís whisky more Estragonís field, dear Toltec, but even here in the steaming jungle, we are not unfamiliar with John S. Bell, locality and spin correlation.
However, one must make the immediate observation that, as in so much else, it is called a ětheoremî because that is just what it is: no more and no less, just as most of what it is based upon: e.g. Diracís original postulates concerning spin are simply postulates. Certainly some experimental confirmation has come later, but nothing that is conclusive or does not require further work.
And, and this again is very often the case, Bellís work illustrates the problems that arise when gifted mathematicians attempt to verbalise their work: moving into another field where they are not particularly gifted. The usual counter to Bell, for example, focuses upon the looseness of his notion of ěsimultaneityî
The theorem proceeds from a linear combination of spin correlation functions, each of which has a differing pair of arguments. The meaning of ěsimultaneousî when we talk of the presence of these different arguments in the same equation is not clear: either it applies only to a single pair or it applies, and is measured as such, for each of the different pairs. Bell appears to take only the former into account and therefore, not unexpectedly, shows
a discrepancy between local realistic and quantum mechanical positions. Yet this may only be because Bell has unjustifiably applied the single-pair postulations to multiple sets of pairs. We cannot say with strong objective clarity that ěsimultaneousî applies across multiple sets of pairs ń we can only assume it mathematically or postulate it explicitly. Thus we have a possibly meaningless comparison between a local realistic inequality (1 pair) and quantum mechanical predictions (more than 1 pair).
In short, the mathematical sophistication may be entirely vitiated by a sudden linguistic lapse in something as obviously dubious as ěat the same timeî.
I am well aware that Bellís theorem is backed up by limited experimental data and that the consensus is that only non-local hidden variable theory is still a strong counter-argument.
The point is that the theorem remains simply a possible account of problems within any attempt at specifying a physical system and should not therefore be treated as a sound foundation for anything more than speculation. And this is no doubt why one so often encounters Bellís work in pseudo-science, ěpsiî science, articles on telepathy and the rest. Bell is taken to ěproveî strange and mysterious possibilities whereas it is no more than a mathematically powerful case against certain arguably more prosaic models of interpretation that, if adhered to, would give rise to Bellís inequality. It is about what probably isnít, much more than it is about what really is.
Hence the need to eschew the practice of presenting such bits of science as a philosopherís stone that will somehow turn mere fancy into holy writ.
Whatever we may think of it: "local"; "simultaneous" "hidden" and the rest will always have (or at least for the foreseeable future) meanings that do not coincide with the mathematical applications of these terms. What is more or less mathematically coherent will tehrefore very often appear linguistically nonsensical: it is this clash that charlatans can exploit.
When the physicist says : "X is almost certainly in New York; but there's a statistical probabity that he's somewhere else." this can all too easily be made into mumbo jumbo about "reality" "out of body experiences" and whatnot when in fact it simply illustrates the curent level of mathematical reasoning: what makes the equations work that is also consistent with the limited experimental data.
And that is where the conspiracy comes in: how do the likes of Hovind manipulate the current state of science in order to manipulate the unscientific man in the street.


reply posted on 27-10-2002 @ 11:43 AM by Toltec
Main Entry: the…o…rem
Pronunciation: 'thE-&-r&m, 'thi(-&)r-&m
Function: noun
Etymology: Late Latin theorema, from Greek theOrEma, from theOrein to look at, from theOros spectator, from thea act of seeing ómore at THEATER
Date: 1551
1 : a formula, proposition, or statement in mathematics or logic deduced or to be deduced from other formulas or propositions
2 : an idea accepted or proposed as a demonstrable truth often as a part of a general theory : PROPOSITION
3 : STENCIL
4 : a painting produced especially on velvet by the use of stencils for each color
- the…o…rem…at…ic /"thE-&-r&-'ma-tik, "thi(-&)r-&-/ adjective

Pronunciation Key

© 2001 by Merriam-Webster, Incorporated
Merriam-Webster Privacy Policy
-------------------

The word "Theorem" means truth
or fact. Bells Theorem despite your
very interesting response is a fact
of life. Bells Theorem estabishes
an interconnectivness amoungst all
things created at the same time.

As far your statements in relation to Mumbo jumbo perhaps you have never sought a vison quest is relation to acertaining the animal spirit which pertains to you? If you are referring to what are often called Charlatans and or those who apply what they claim as paranormal ablity to make money, I am not in that category.

Bells theorem is a response to EPR Phenomenon. Just as the term Quantum leaps is a response to the Aurora Borealis, It really is that simple.



What are your thoughts?

[Edited on 27-10-2002 by Toltec]
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