Should Israel Have Nukes???

My response was actually aimed at AMM, not you - you're making a pragmatic argument not one based on a false morality.

As far as the Russians getting involved, it would certainly have been after the fact, and too late to serve any purpose in the regional conflict itself. But Russia, like the US, had the credibility of it's superpower status & nuclear umbrella at stake. If Russia, nuclear superpower, allowed it's non-nuclear allies to be attacked with nukes and didn't respond, they would rapidly lose all their international alliances.

Had Israel nuked Syria and Egypt, the Soviets would have nuked Israel - not to "win" the war (too late for that) but to preserve their credibility as a superpower.

The US would have done the same in a similar situation.

[edit on 6/27/07 by xmotex]

Originally posted by orangetom1999
I think this is called the right of conquest. Also I stated that the Israelis will have to fight continually to keep it.

under UN laws its iligal and hence occupied and Israel have no right to the land screw they won the land in a war, they dont own it, this isnt the middle ages. we have laws in place to prevent this crap from happening.

they have no right to place scawtters there and build homes

intresting reads

Six million Jewish people surrounded by 250 million Arab people. Many of the leaders of those Arab countries have publicly spoke out against Israel and with to see that nation removed. The nuclear weapons in Israel have been the one factor that equals the playing field. Of course the majority of those that post on here also believe Israel has no right to exist and therefore the surrounding nations who have proved the aggressors in the past should also have nuclear weapons.

Originally posted by on_yur_6
Six million Jewish people surrounded by 250 million Arab people. Many of the leaders of those Arab countries have publicly spoke out against Israel and with to see that nation removed. The nuclear weapons in Israel have been the one factor that equals the playing field. Of course the majority of those that post on here also believe Israel has no right to exist and therefore the surrounding nations who have proved the aggressors in the past should also have nuclear weapons.

please quote someone that has said israel has no right to exsist and then then point to the post i would really like to see that

also Israel is suppose to have the best forces in the world
Miliatry srvice is required so almost all israelis can fight

so why need nukes when their forces are much superior to the arabs?

Originally posted by bodrul

Originally posted by on_yur_6
Six million Jewish people surrounded by 250 million Arab people. Many of the leaders of those Arab countries have publicly spoke out against Israel and with to see that nation removed. The nuclear weapons in Israel have been the one factor that equals the playing field. Of course the majority of those that post on here also believe Israel has no right to exist and therefore the surrounding nations who have proved the aggressors in the past should also have nuclear weapons.

please quote someone that has said israel has no right to exsist and then then point to the post i would really like to see that

also Israel is suppose to have the best forces in the world
Miliatry srvice is required so almost all israelis can fight

so why need nukes when their forces are much superior to the arabs?

Numbers! That's why they need them. If the Arab nations assembled enough manpower they could steamroll right over Israel even with outdated Russian hardware.

I already know you don't believe anything that is posted saying that the many Arab countries seek to eliminate Israel so why continue this? I've seen video footage after video footage of radical Muslims jumping up and down while their leader cries out for death to America and death to Israel.

I know your main arguement is on the word "Regime." But you fail to realize he says death to Isreal not death to the regime. This has gone on since Isreal was returned. Long before the current "regime."



[edit on 27-6-2007 by on_yur_6]

one whats the point in a blank video?

Originally posted by on_yur_6
Numbers! That's why they need them. If the Arab nations assembled enough manpower they could steamroll right over Israel even with outdated Russian hardware.

oh please
Israel has kept them at bay with their forces
more trained
better equipment

that country is built for war (far better then the US)

and please show why the arabs would attack Israel now apart from israel attacking its neigbours

so in reality it should be israels neigbours being worried about israels happy trigger finger

Originally posted by on_yur_6
I already know you don't believe anything that is posted saying that the many Arab countries seek to eliminate Israel so why continue this? I've seen video footage after video footage of radical Muslims jumping up and down while their leader cries out for death to America and death to Israel.

their leaders? please post an article where a laeder of a arab country has called for the death of Israel.

Iran doesnt count they are persion and wiping out the zionest regieme is diffrent

and with the current way the US works in the middle east and how israel treats the palistians it doesnt supprise me (not that i condone this)

Originally posted by on_yur_6
I know your main arguement is on the word "Regime." But you fail to realize he says death to Isreal not death to the regime. This has gone on since Isreal was returned. Long before the current "regime."

when was this?
the arabs were pissed off at the UK for giving away land to israel because of what the germans did. they couldnt give european land but arab.

now days its completly diffrent, no threats from arabs, Iran is persion
and the only threat is defencive from Iran

and you seem to fail to realize regieme doesnt mean israel

somebody gimme that gawddamn Israeli nuclear release strategy, and stop squabbling over these moral blackholes!

Ok, I'm not really Pro-Israel, but I'm not against Israel either. (However, I think Israel should belong to all nations, seeing how it is a holy land for many religious groups.)

But sometimes, a lot of people consider the Jew's in Israel the bad guy's. When in truth, they're surrounded by different nations who'd like nothing better then to see Israel burn to the ground and Jew's wiped from the face of the earth. That being said, I believe they should be allowed to own unconventional weapons to help them keep their country (stolen or not, doesn't matter because they are there now.) safe from those who'd like to destroy them.

However, I don't think they should be allowed to own nuclear weapons. I feel that NO country should have the right to own nuclear weapons. Not Israel, not the USA or any other country. Because when you use a nuke, you're not only ruining the land for the current generations, but for many gens to come.

But of course, many Arabic countries are now thought to have, or at least developing nuclear weapons. So that's another thing we should keep in mind. So I suppose it's a "damned if you do, damned if you don't" scenario.

Frontkjemper

Originally posted by Daedalus3
somebody gimme that gawddamn Israeli nuclear release strategy, and stop squabbling over these moral blackholes!

Daedalus...its called the Sampson Complex. You can find it on the web. Prior to their acquiring nuclear weapons the strategy was the Masada Complex after the historical suicide on the fortress of Masada where the Romans had them surrounded. The history reads that they committed suicide rather than be captured by the Romans.

The Sampson Complex is after the Biblical story of Sampson. Where the PHilistines had Sampson captured and chained between two pillars..on display for all to see. Sampson chose with his strength to pull down the pillars and take everyone with him in the collapse of the building.
The Israeli plan is to take everyone with them using their nuclear weapons if they are overun and cannot turn the tide.

As I said this can be found on the web under that name..Sampson Complex.

I have no doubt that every Prime Minister and certain selected members of the governing body are briefed on this shortly after they take office.

THe amazing thing to me is that our news media here..looking out for us...dont seem wont to discuss this. They would rather keep us in the dark with important news like the release of Paris Hilton. Wow!!

Thanks,
Orangetom

Bodrul,

You can't hide the fact that the Dome of the Rock is built on top of what??? Solomon's second temple. Most of the former Jewish city is underneath the feet of those claiming it as their land. I'm not Jewish but it is so ironic how you can witness the persecution of the Jews all throughout history by nearly every nation.

The reason the Israelis have held the Arab nations at bay for so long is because of the good butt whooping dished out in the past wars. Now in hindsight the Egyptians should have rolled right over Israel while they were preoccupied to the north but for some reason, Egypt stopped part way into Israel. Again, Israel couldn't effectively defend itself with a coordinated attack from all fronts. It's just too small. Therefore the Samson Plan as mentioned above is a last resort and a reason for Israel to own nuclear weapons.

I agree nobody should own nuclear weapons. But you are talking about man here. Someone is always going to find a way to forcefully gain power from someone else and unfortunately religion is used to sway the masses into falling in line. AS IF GOD REALLY WANTS YOU TO KILL ANOTHER HUMAN FOR HIM! I think he could do it for himself if he wanted...

Oh Bodrul, go to youtube video #1227 and watch the leader of Iran say Death to Israel, not Death to the Regime. the crowd joins right along.

I wonder if our hated President stood up before the cameras and chanted Death to Iran and the crowd joined him, would people like you try and to down play it? He would be crucified on all media outlets unlike Iran.

Orangetom,

Like you I just don't get the fascination with rich, spoiled, sluts like Paris Hilton. The world is on fire and there are so many more important things to report other than Paris Hilton.

[edit on 28-6-2007 by on_yur_6]

Originally posted by xmotex

Your argument is basically that the Israelis stole the land fair & square

Nah, my argument is they have done nothing different then any other nation which was formed. They took some land and called it their own. Name a country which wasn't formed by doing such.

Land has exchanged hands throughout the history of man. The Muslims kicked out most of the native inhabitants of the middle east long ago. And you'll notice they are very intolerant towards others.

So if they don't like Israel they should remind themselves where they got their "the muslims" land from in the first place. which is from OTHER PEOPLE...

Beside those people are tribal squatters do you know what that land would be without the jews.... a big sand box with the rotting infrastructure that the British built.

Arabs/muslims are sore losers. Don't think for a second they wouldn't take what is your if they could in a heartbeat.

Originally posted by on_yur_6
Bodrul,

You can't hide the fact that the Dome of the Rock is built on top of what??? Solomon's second temple. Most of the former Jewish city is underneath the feet of those claiming it as their land. I'm not Jewish but it is so ironic how you can witness the persecution of the Jews all throughout history by nearly every nation.

if you look in history you will see the persions gave jews santuray
so what if the domes built on a fomer temple?

Originally posted by on_yur_6
The reason the Israelis have held the Arab nations at bay for so long is because of the good butt whooping dished out in the past wars. Now in hindsight the Egyptians should have rolled right over Israel while they were preoccupied to the north but for some reason, Egypt stopped part way into Israel. Again, Israel couldn't effectively defend itself with a coordinated attack from all fronts. It's just too small. Therefore the Samson Plan as mentioned above is a last resort and a reason for Israel to own nuclear weapons.

wrong
in that justification all nations should have nukes

Originally posted by on_yur_6
I agree nobody should own nuclear weapons. But you are talking about man here. Someone is always going to find a way to forcefully gain power from someone else and unfortunately religion is used to sway the masses into falling in line. AS IF GOD REALLY WANTS YOU TO KILL ANOTHER HUMAN FOR HIM! I think he could do it for himself if he wanted...

then stop trying to justufy Israel have nukes
and i agree with you this point

Originally posted by on_yur_6
Oh Bodrul, go to youtube video #1227 and watch the leader of Iran say Death to Israel, not Death to the Regime. the crowd joins right along.

all i see is a blank page
a black box
so can u find a source i can see

Originally posted by on_yur_6
I wonder if our hated President stood up before the cameras and chanted Death to Iran and the crowd joined him, would people like you try and to down play it? He would be crucified on all media outlets unlike Iran.

please bush has openly said he has plans to attack Iran
he has already let two wars
one iligal and millions of americans support this or they woudl have voted him out when they had the chance


on Israel and palistine i never us religon to back my views
only when it comes to people using verses of the Quran do i bring faith into

other then that my views on Irsrael are from none religous views (just for future refrence)

Originally posted by on_yur_6


I wonder if our hated President stood up before the cameras and chanted Death to Iran and the crowd joined him, would people like you try and to down play it? He would be crucified on all media outlets unlike Iran.



[edit on 28-6-2007 by on_yur_6]

iran = a dog that barks and is scared

USA/Israel=a rabid dog that bites and attempts to kill

whos more dangerous , i would say the rabid dog


and yes many wars began bec of zionist provocation..

1956= when egypt nationalized suez canal and denied any compensation and accesss to britain, france ,israel, they in two months began invasion...
egypt was saved by USSR which stationed nukes in egypt to threaten israel and thus war was stopped

1967 war= egypt shut down Straits of Tiran to israeli ships , as a result of israeli provocatory actions over over 60's and israel attacked egypt , and others when they were not even prepared and caught unaware...
from the UN:
In the UN General Assembly debates immediately after the war, the Arab League argued that even if international law gave Israel the right of passage, Israel was not entitled to attack Egypt to assert it because the closure was not an "armed attack" as defined by Article 51 of the UN Charter.
1973 yom kippur war= a revenge war by arabs for the humilation they had to , but was ineffective due to stupidity in tactical planning by egypt ,mismanaagement and logistic catsptrophe.....israel had turned tide of war and nearly began invasion of arab nations , when USSr again came to save them...

1981= osirak iraqi reactor attacked by israel
1982 = israel stirred up lebonan war....

aslo jimmy carter has said that israel practices apartheid...

you may think i am muslim, but no i am sikh and mind it sikhs and muslims have brutal battles in india ....and neutral on my stance on israel or arabs ...
the problem can only be solved when first israel stops being aggressive in gaza ,west bank and middle east.. and then muslim nations reassured that israel will not be aggressive and intimidating and give up nukes , then arab countries would pressure and oppose iran , then hizbollah and hamas will lose their pupose and fall to pieces...







.........






[edit on 28-6-2007 by vK_man]

[edit on 28-6-2007 by vK_man]

Originally posted by bodrul

Originally posted by on_yur_6
Bodrul,

You can't hide the fact that the Dome of the Rock is built on top of what??? Solomon's second temple. Most of the former Jewish city is underneath the feet of those claiming it as their land. I'm not Jewish but it is so ironic how you can witness the persecution of the Jews all throughout history by nearly every nation.

if you look in history you will see the persions gave jews santuray

so what if the domes built on a fomer temple?


please bush has openly said he has plans to attack Iran
he has already let two wars
one iligal and millions of americans support this or they woudl have voted him out when they had the chance


on Israel and palistine i never us religon to back my views
only when it comes to people using verses of the Quran do i bring faith into

other then that my views on Irsrael are from none religous views (just for future refrence)

yes, bodrul, the jews were much safer and free in muslim regions than christian european ones as christians regularly commited genocide and pogroms on jews , i am aware of that ...a very good example

all i see is a blank page

the iranian president chanted death to zionist israel, and i must say ahmindjad is a moron who reminds of khruschev like rhetoric

[edit on 28-6-2007 by vK_man]

Originally posted by orangetom1999

Originally posted by Daedalus3
somebody gimme that gawddamn Israeli nuclear release strategy, and stop squabbling over these moral blackholes!

Daedalus...its called the Sampson Complex...
Thanks,
Orangetom

OT,

Thanks..
Although I was actually looking for more detail. I know the Sampson complex, and yes that is a part of any nuclear strategy.
However I'm talking about stuff like this:

1. Delivery platforms, delivery devices, yields, primary targets, secondary targets, number of devices etc..
   
2. Whether they would execute a graduated release strategy: Toss a few nukes to make all enemies aware that they(Israel) would not hesitate to use them if pushed enough. Then wait for enemy and international reaction. The Soviets would at the most deploy more mercenary forces in the Arab states but I don't think they would nuke the israelis back. The US would not standby it. A tactical,graduated a controlled release of nukes here could be the best solution in this case.
   

So it doesn't have to be Sampson. Either way, I'd be interested to see what targets they would've hit, specifically taking into consideration the gegraphical proximity of the opponents and thus the fallout issues.

Originally posted by JIMC5499
but the fact is that If the king of Jordan was serious about peace he would recognize Israel's existance.

Jordan (and Egypt, though it is now very reluctant) officially recognizes Israel since 1994 or so. Problem is that they were unwilling to take the West Bank as well. Best solution would be for Israel and Jordan to split it once again, and let Jordan create a "Confederation of Palestine and The Kingdom of Jordan".

Gaza is apparently an irremediable hole.

has anyone watched King abdullahs speach to congress?

Israel recognised by all arabs and muslim countries

video


full article



[edit on 28-6-2007 by bodrul]

Originally posted by bodrul
has anyone watched King abdullahs speach to congress?

Israel recognised by all arabs and muslim countries

video


full article



[edit on 28-6-2007 by bodrul]

Since when does King Abdullah speak for the entire ME? Most countries there would cut each others throats if the USA was not in the region and a magnet at this time. Actually many Shias and Sunnis are still killing each other every day.

Here is a link to one video, pay attention what he says at the very end. But it probably won't matter what he says anyway.

video death to Israel



PS VK_man

I would never quote Jimmy Carter. He is without a doubt one of the most out of touch presidents the USA has ever had. Bush will be right there beside him but Carter must really be losing it in his old age.

[edit on 28-6-2007 by on_yur_6]

They took some land and called it their own. Name a country which wasn't formed by doing such.

Well if that's the case, then why should I care if the Arabs want to take it back?

Some demented ethnic/religious preference?
I'm supposed to value the lives of Jews more than Muslims?