The UK swing Euro Defence, away from US interests!

what a facinating thread!!

Nice use of the word "#", Skadi.
I'm impressed with your use of the language.
I have to admit to being unimpressed with your lack of brains and knowledge though.

WW2 not a US fight?
Isolationism would have ended with the destruction of the United States. It's completely idiotic to believe that Hitler would have left an uncontrolled superpower once he controlled the rest of the world.
Economically or militarily he would have taken the US to the cleaners.

Your problem Skadi? You don't live in the real world. You look out for number one, even when it's plain that if the world was run in the way that you wanted it run, there would be no USofA and therefore no Skadi.
You couldn't live happily on this planet with anyone - even yourself.

I pity you.

Should have been the route that America returned to after WWII,The only reason the US even got involved was to bail out Britain,she relied too heavily on her little possessions around the world and her fleet had been destroyed,so she was basically starving.
Hitler would not have stopped,but the distances between europe and america would have caused a bit of a problem as far as his invading america,america geared up and saved britains butt before she fell,a consequence of the UK's exploitation of other less powerful countries LIKE GERMANY!,america would have been able to gear up and save her own butt too.
Just depends on how you want to expend your resources,like your unemployed masses during a depression,WWII was the thing that pulled the US the rest of the way out of that depression,it wasn't anything else.
There have been warnings over the years from people in high places who could see the truth and actually were willing to share it with the masses,who apparently had grown past their greedy ways and knew that everything was wrong.
Nobody listened,so here we are.
Isolationism works,but a country can't be stupid about it.
Read between those lines in those history books,the truth is "hidden" there.

[Edited on 18-10-2003 by uNBaLaNCeD]

Its nice to see, Leveler, that youre still on the same drugs as always.

I will say this again. NO. It was not our fight, and you need to get that through your #ing head. Hitler would have NOT made it this way because Hitler would have fallen apart at the #ing seams eventually. Look how fast he broke down. If the Russians didnt get him, overexpansion, an illfated anf failed invasion would have got him, he would have had one hell of a time crossing the channel, let alone the Atlantic.

WW2 was a EUROPEAN problem, and thats that. Period. YOU SHOULD HAVE KEPT IT THAT WAY. But you didnt. You just cant seem to get that, can you? Its a real simple concept. You deal with your own problems and dont drag others in. Since Europe was fool enough to spend damn near a decade placating Hitler by feeding him territory and whole nations, you created the monster, you deal with it.

Just like the US. Had Europe dealt with its own damn problems in the first place, we wouldnt be in this predicament. The US wouldnt be a superpower, Europe would still be #ing around with its empire, and millions of Gentiles and Jews would not be dead, and the state of Israel would probably not even exist because there would have been no need for it.

BUt Unbalanced is right, our own govornment, working against our best interests as always, manipulated us into the war. Goading Japan. Even had Japan attacked us without provocation, we had no real need to declare war on Hitler and get involved in Europe.

And I care not your opinion nor what impresses you, Leveler, on the use of the word #. Its a free country, and before you and the thought police start censoring anything offensive, I shall continue to use the word # freely.

Ignorance is bliss isn't it?

You should be the happiest person alive.
What's gone wrong?


But anyway, you show no understanding of economics or politics. WW2 a European affair?
Then explain why it was fought on every continent on the planet before the US joined in?

Sure you could have retained your isolationism in the 40s but this is the real world. Things move on. Economies move on and military technology moves on. The US would have been toast once Hitler had taken over the rest of the world. It's plain for even the dumbest person to see (except for you) but once Hitler had control of the money, he would have choked the US. Everything would have to have been dealt with on his terms. Hitler would have owned the world except for the US - are you really naive enough to believe that you could have stood up to that kind of power?

And the Russian invasion point yet again shows your grasp of history is as frail as your grasp on reality. The Russians were getting their asses kicked and the Germans were at the gates of Moscow. If the US hadn't joined the fray and effectively opened and strengthened the Western front, the Russians would have eventually fallen.

One final word: your own conspiracy defeats your argument. Using the Jews to prove your point is a big shot in your own foot. Time and time again you have babbled on here about how the Jews run the US. If the US had not entered the war do you think there would still be a state of Israel? Where would those Jews have gone to escape from death?
The only place they could have gone would have been the US.
Do you honestly believe (even in your confused state) that Hitler would have accepted his only competition as a nation being run by Jews?

The language in which skadi uses to describe the EU is really negative using such phases as �drawn into the tentacles� and �and dissolved into the European federation�. The NWO is not as evil as you may think yes it can be evil or then again turn out to be neutral (in-between). The NWO can branch off into many directions for example (1) the USA getting its global domination and pretending to be the guardian all that is right OR (2) Having the world divided by regional powers i.e. USA controlling its side of the world and the EU controlling its side and then we have China controlling its side. Those two are just some speculative examples of what a NWO can manifest into.

The EU being the home of bigbrother being Evil? I beg to differ. The use of CCTV to watch every movement of the public is not really an infringement on privacy. I believe that it is like a guardian angel that watches over the public, to keep people safe. Readers did u know that beggars and homeless people use big-brother as a place for haven. These people actually sleep under the cameras for safety as they know if any thing where to happen to them, there attacker could easily be identified in the future.

Britain is not being sucked into the ravenous tentacles of the European Union.
Britain is a part of Europe and while always be. You should remember that Britain choose on its own free will to join the EU in 1973. Therefore you need to forget that Britain is doing things against there will what u must understand is the fact that within the EU there are debates on whether integrated defence or other topics is needed or not. So basically Britain siding with Europe is some times blown out of proportion because Britain is Europe and its should not be any surprise that at the end of the day they will do there duties as a European member and that is to secure the interests of Europe and therefore itself.

But anyway, you show no understanding of economics or politics. WW2 a European affair?

Yes Leveler, you #ing twinkie, it was a European affair. Why was it fought on every continent? because Europe had colonies EVERYWHERE, and the battle lines werent just Europe alone, but every #ing chunk of land that Europe held sway over. All the allies and alliances made beyond the continent.

Duh, Leveler, I would have thought your brain might have figured that one out, but obviously, you sure could use a nice tin foil hat.

I do live in the real world, but your lack of greater understanding of cause and effect, of empire and overstretching, is severly limited. Hell, much of your ability to see reason is limited, but, like any slave beast, you can be taught. Lets start now.

Duh. Hitler taking over the world. Now that I have stopped laughing, lets get to the point.

Hitler would not have made it far. The Russians were sucking his armies into oblivion, the Brits were hammering him from the Suez Canal to the Channel. His forces were busy bailing his retard mentor, Mussolini, out of the mess he got himself into in Africa. Even before his armies started crumbling, his hands were full. Was your tie on too tight during history class?

Come over and invade and take over the US? NOW Im laughing, your spitting out the same paranoia and garbage they used to brainwash the American public into thinking Japs and Krauts were everywhere out to get them.

Let me give you a little geography lesson, and sit up and pay attantion, Junge. The US is a HUGE country seperated by a very ;large ocean from Europe. The size of the invasion force that would be required to even take half of the east coast would ahve required damn near ALL of Hitlers forces. When you consider, that in order to rule Europe, he has to have an occupational army, that would have meant he would have had to divert a very LARGE number of valuable troops to come this way. Needless to say, his chances of sucess were like winning the lottery.

Japan was busy holding onto Asia and the pacific, slowly overstretching itself as well. The numbers of Japanese troops needed to not only hold onto what they had conquered, but slam the US as well, would have been beyond thier capabilities, especially with all the resistance against them.

Again, there was no logical reason for the US to join in a war that was started on issues that had nothing to do with us, and was faught in a place miles away from us, our safety and wellbeing were not at stake. The worst case scenario? Hitler overruning Europe, and then spending the rest of his days in slow gurilla warfare, heavy losses, and losing grip on his empire. Do you think had he invaded Britain that they would have just let him march right over without a fight? And suceededing, that no one would play guerilla warfare? I think not. The Russians werent to keen on the idea either. Hitlers Empire would have been a short lived bloody affair.

Had Hitler come over and started bothering us, then it would be our affair. But he didnt. We had a backstabbing govornment that was not working for the best interests of the people, who manipulated to get us in the war against what was our best interests. But since you really dont care whats in our best interests, nor would I expect you to, I would think you would care about whats in your own countrys best interests. 50 years later, I should hope that you would be smart enough to see allowing the US to become a super power was a pretty stupid thing to do, and NOT in ANYONES best interest.

As for the Jews? Ill leave it at this: had Europe taken care of # the right way and not allowed this mess to get out of control, there would have been no need for israel, because Hitler would have been nipped at the bud, and the final solution would have never been reality, and the Jews would have been just fine where they were at. But again, you failed there. Dont even try this gaRBage that no one could possibly know what he planned.

MEIN KAMPF WAS PUBLICALLY PUBLISHED FOR ALL TO SEE.

And it was as plain as the nose connected to your thick skull that what he intended for all people not Aryan supermen, whether they be Slavs, Jews, or Gypsies, was anything but peaceful and non violent.

Listening to your incessant ramblings, I must wonder, you seem to enjoy getting people involved in messes that dont conern them. Are you one of those old men who walks arpound, looking in peoples windows, having to know what is going on, feeling the need to bother, pester, and correct people? Have they already implanted a microchip in that brain of yours? Cant you even see you are the perfect image of citizen-stormtrooper?

Regardless, you have not learned much. Having to resort to bored, irrelevant insults really kills you. Mind thine own business. Golden rule of foreign policy. Golden rule of bar fights. Unless it directly pertains to you.

And I am in bliss, because I can enjoy your ignorance from the comfort of my own hovel and laugh and be grateful my brain can still differentiate between realistic threats and propoganda.

And Moo........you scare me. CCTV, a guardian angel? Well, if thats the way you like it, I suppose youre entitled to it, but I, and many others, on the other hand, do not find CCTV to be a guardian angel, and do not believe the NWO< US< EU< what have you, has any right to monitor and invade privacy for the lie of security.

Id rather live in a wild world without the benefit of Guardian angels than live in dished out, oppresive safety.

Originally posted by mooeuro
The NWO is not as evil as you may think yes it can be evil or then again turn out to be neutral (in-between).

The EU being the home of bigbrother being Evil? I beg to differ. The use of CCTV to watch every movement of the public is not really an infringement on privacy. I believe that it is like a guardian angel that watches over the public, to keep people safe.

Moo,
The NWO is about one world government pure and simple. That means economic/military/domestic power consolidated into the hands of a tyrannical few.

The noose is around your neck and you can't even feel it! Lesson number one: NEVER give up freedom for safety. You are playing into their hands so easily! What child's play! Wake up. They don't give a rat's a$$ about you and your safety. It's about CONTROL! When the axe falls, they will make literal slaves out of everyone who are not among the elites.

At the risk of having my head bitten of:

Britain joined Europe in 1973, how does that make WWII Britains concern?

Not much, Koka, that was a derailed train of thought on this thread in an eternal battle between me and leveler about the issue, it has nothing to do with this topic, but needless to say, when leveler shows up, theres always a battle of some sort.

Anyway, yes, never give up freedom for safety, otherwise, you deserve niether. It is a choice for everyone to make, and thos who chose the path of slavery are entitled to it, but those who wish the collar never to rest on our necks have the right to battle it in our own backyard.

Originally posted by dragonrider
Possible chain of events:

UK breaks ranks with US
UK adopts Euro, fully integrates with EU
All major EU nations pull out of NATO, effectively dissolving it.
OPEC, backed by military intimidation from Russia, fully adopts Euro as oil standard currency.
US suffers 911 style attack, gets justification to invade Saudi Arabia
Russia offers military assistance to all OPEC nations
Quickly spirals downward into WWIII

You paint an ugly picture DR, but I can see where you're coming from. Not a pretty thought at all, but it stands to reason.

...were to find itself in a precarious position in world economics it would force those who are in power presently to look at the mistakes made by the US government in the past.
Just think, if they were forced to realise what the country was founded to be,what it was supposed to be, they may realise that it was founded under sound principles and practice again.
They may realise that backtracking to a policy of semi-isolationism may be the only way to save the US from a financial/economic collapse.
If they do not react in this way,there may be repercussions by the Federal Reserve bank and other foreign institutions,like the foreigners who hold interest in the US foreclosing on those interests.
The possibilities are endless if one wishes them to be,you can fumble around for decades worrying about profits and so on,or you can wake up to the fact that there must be some compromise.
Tyranny is destroying the US in the name of profits,but this is concentrated mainly near the top of the power structure and needs to include some compensation those who do the work.
The parasites are consuming America.
It needs to stop.
Greed has spread to every sector of society here,even poor people who think they have it so bad are living better than some who live in other countries that are considered to be well off.
EVERYONE NEEDS TO BE MORE REALISTIC!.
I personally,have very little respect for those who are quick to blame those on welfare and so on,welfare has been gradually eliminated over the years.Now they are attacking the benefits of troops in the field as well as veterans,benefits for the needy have been evaporating for years.There seems to be a pattern here...
Soon just existing will be considered a priveledge.
Stop bitching and learn what it is you are bitching about,while you sit around and complain and blame others,when in reality you don't have it that bad yet.
Yet.
Stop wasting your time whining and get involved.



[Edited on 21-10-2003 by uNBaLaNCeD]

(To east coast kid and Skadi_the_Evil_Smeelf) the NWO maybe about a one world government but that there is an assumption. The one world government theory is just maybe one of the likely outcomes of the direction man is going into now. For all we know there could be a nuclear apocalypse and then the NWO would now be a small cluster of humans tiring to survive and to evolve using primitive governing methods. The new world order that looks like its taking place is the EU, with its rising to power.

The question is, is it evil, I think not one example to back my argument is when the Italian president made a proposal to give future EU presidents immunities from the repercussions of their actions (whether it be genocide or screwing up the economy). THE PRPOSAL WAS IMIDIATLY REFUSED BY MOST EU COUNTRIES AND THERFORE IT WAS NOT PUT INTO ACTION.

What most people don�t realize is that most governments want there nation to have the best quality of life possible. As the nation is the people and the people are the nation. For example look at Britain and the creation of the NHS a health service without charge. And with the EU introducing the minimum wage so that employees can never be exploited. The health and safety acts in the work place laws all put in place to make our lives much easier a safer. So again governments on my side of the continent want to offer servitude to their nation as they are proud of there nation.

Another point to make although not every strong, the EU is the most environmentally conscience government in the world. There they CARE!

..Europe has to be careful because the country,the continent has been ravaged by war so many times that if they weren't environmentally aware they wouldn't be able to survive,there would be no place to grow crops.
Seems their weather has been kinda funky there anyway for a few years,can you say "crop failure?".
Yup.

That can change, Moo, right now, of course they behave environmentally aware.

But, like human rights, that can go down the tubes. EU already wants to loose trade restriction on China it set up because of thier human rights violations in Tiennemen square and elsewhere. The US was often criticized for this very thing, now the EU is loosing up and human rights shall soon be thrown out the window. Remeber, if you want to be a superpower, you have to ditch morality and decency to achieve and maintain this power.

The EU might impose draconian environmental sanctions now on its citizens, but in the future, as they grow, they shall become less picky about the countrys they trade with.........

Its the price of great power: great corruption.

Remeber, if you want to be a superpower, you have to ditch morality and decency to achieve and maintain this power.

You are right in one sense but wrong in another. Yes to achieve supremacy u need to be cunning and forget about �morality and decency�, you also most live by double standards. As some writer in an article on the PNAC website wrote �in order to survive one most follow the rules in his home but when he goes out in the jungle he most play by the rules of the jungle.(double standards).

Where u are wrong however is that a strong nation always has the backing of its people and examples include Rome where the people where interested in its greatness, the states of America also have the backing of its people which lead to there rise and Britain having most of its colonies backing it in the hour of glory.

It would thus be foolish to throw away such virtues as �morality and decency� when applying it to the citizens.

So what I am saying is most governments will always be gracious to its citizen but be tyrannical to other nation to uphold its interests.

So what I am saying is most governments will always be gracious to its citizen but be tyrannical to other nation to uphold its interests.

Yes ,and this is normal, the US is not unusual in this. We werent the first tyrants on the planet, nor will we be the last. Ones nation must be ones priority.

But, again, when the govornment, like many do, turn against thier citizens and start acting against the wishes of its own citizenry.........then we have a probelm. The US govornment is beginning to do just that.

Being a superpower doesnt seem to agree with the US, and Id rather be an isolated state, but perhaps we have gone too far for that, at least in this current situation.......

China will be the next superpower, and, I would hate to see what they might plan on doing to the rest of the world...............

Originally posted by Leveller

Isolationism would have ended with the destruction of the United States. It's completely idiotic to believe that Hitler would have left an uncontrolled superpower once he controlled the rest of the world.
Economically or militarily he would have taken the US to the cleaners.

Leveller, would you mind enlightening the rest of us on how you came to the absurd conclusion Hitler could have taken over and dominate the United States?


[Edited on 19-09-2003 by EastCoastKid]

Germany had nearly got the nukes when the war ended.If they didn't attack the USSR they would have conquered all Europe including the UK.
And it would then be a matter of time before they'd nuke USA and the Russians would of propably helped.

Originally posted by mooeuro

Remeber, if you want to be a superpower, you have to ditch morality and decency to achieve and maintain this power.

You are right in one sense but wrong in another. Yes to achieve supremacy u need to be cunning and forget about �morality and decency�, you also most live by double standards. As some writer in an article on the PNAC website wrote �in order to survive one most follow the rules in his home but when he goes out in the jungle he most play by the rules of the jungle.(double standards).

Where u are wrong however is that a strong nation always has the backing of its people and examples include Rome where the people where interested in its greatness, the states of America also have the backing of its people which lead to there rise and Britain having most of its colonies backing it in the hour of glory.

It would thus be foolish to throw away such virtues as �morality and decency� when applying it to the citizens.

So what I am saying is most governments will always be gracious to its citizen but be tyrannical to other nation to uphold its interests.

Mooeuro, it's admirable that you have so much faith in the "altruistic" motives of the state, whatever state that may be. Unfortunately, history has taught us how utterly naive and wrong-headed that thinking is. The unseen power elites who actually rule the vast majority of countries around this world have nothing but contempt for the sheople, or, "feeders" as they refer to us common folk. Let's just start with the French Revolution; the international bankers (i.e. the Rothschild Banking House) have fomented every war since playing both sides off the middle. (If you want a good read on that check out Jim Marrs book "Rule By Secrecy.) It's about raping the nations of their natural resources, total control and consolidating all the world's wealth into the hands of a select few.
As far as countries backing their governments gladly, that has everything to do with manipulation through fear and gross propaganda.
Neil Postman's landmark book "Amusing Ourselves to Death" describes in great detail how, for example, Americans have, with the advent of technology from the printing press to the internet, have fallen victim to mass laziness and stupidity. Everyone should read it.