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posted on Apr, 26 2006 @ 03:58 AM
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In triage you save those who can be saved before those whose severity of wounds requires you to go to 'extraordinary lengths' (in time and resources) to even make an attempt.

That is the only condemnation that needs be applied to 9/11 and it is utterly damning.

Because the South Tower was in imminent peril, even if another jet had not been inbound. While everyone above the impact zone on the North who could not be reached from the (smoked in) roof was DEAD ANYWAY.

As any competent structural engineer could at-a-glance have told you. As indeed the 9/11 commission itself found to be the case _for any building_ with that kind of damage.

Unaccessible in a totally compromised structure = lost cause.

Save the living. Do not worship the already dead by adding 'heroes' to their pyre.

Real heroes DO THEIR JOB even when all other's abandon their's. And the job of the NYFD and NYPD was to save lives. Not take them.

In combat things are even more severe in that _you do not risk more than you need to complete the overall mission_.

Which is where the flaw in SEA CSAR principally came from because every fresh crash of a rescue aircraft was treated as it's own independent op, requiring NEW resources be immediately shifted to it.

Reducing those available for the original effort and any followon (next week) without consideration as to how hot the overal situation was and how likely it was all a setup.

If the Cobra brought ANY ONE THING to the mission set. Faster ingress, deeper reach, more agility/ballistic hardening in the pickup area, I might have believed that it was a workable rather than slaptogether mission solution.

But not for this. Because it removes itself as a weapons platform to suppress threats. And it doesn't have the rotor system to do the things that an MH-6, UH-60 or even an MH-53 could do in the same tight space.

While its legs are worse and it's speed only marginally superior to most of those platforms.

Ultimately, this means that if you can get a Cobra onsite, you can get another asset there too.

Proving that the operational commander has scripted a scene for which it was better to 'have the photograph' than to have the total support which makes it unnecessary.

Something that NEVER would have happened in the AirCav of SEA. Because there was ALWAYS a Pink Team on the 5 minute alert pad ready to spin rotors and go. And all of PACAF/USMC CAS plus a Mike Force on respectively 15 minute and 1 hour standby behind them if things got truly ugly.

Either way you cut it. It was a wrong move. And one which, 'next time', could result in another planned-flaktrap incident just like that which took down the MH-47.

As for the snipers in The Mog, you are again wrong. THEIR JOB was to suppress for the whole effort. That was where they could contribute the most. Tagging rooftop threats that the so-called 'gunships' couldn't reach, were disallowed by ROE or were cycling back to reload and thus not present to suppress.

On the ground, innundated by skinny hostiles around an exposed fixed point, two snipers are just more dumb-dead-infantryman. Who wasted their training and saveable grunt lives and their families future on one man whose life rested solely in the hands of the militia at the last call anyway.

TELL ME HOW BAD YOU WOULD FEEL. If, 'in securing' a crashsite full of dead men, you not only lost 18 more. But also jeopardized the NATIONAL mission you had SWORN to accomplish before all else?

Now you're an accidental butcher _for nothing_.

How AWFUL would it be to know that, because Al Qaeda was helping coordinate the tactical plays on the ground. And because 'the victory' of Somalia seemed an moral endorsement of their success. You MIGHT have increased the popularity of the UBL cult of personality to the extent that 9/11 was made more likely?

The reality of military life is this: Those grunts who trust their commanders to have their best interests at heart -within the scope of the mission ROE-, do so on nothing more than indoctrinated (say brainwashed) hormonal allegiance to the excitement of combat. The rush of the kill. While their commander is similarly can-do hamstringed by his own career path and peer pressure appearances.

Yet young men can't help being stupid. An old war horse KNOWS when he's being coopted.

IF General Garrison had said "Real Gunships or I Go." "Armor or Else." "Independent Rescue Force Or I Quit!". Even "Where's the Beef?" on Light Guns. The BHD scenario as a 'fast ambulance solution gone wrong' would never have /begun/ to develop the way it did.

As things were, even his operational, 'in the moment', decisions were a running sight gag of what-not-to-do tactical stupidity at every level.

The real motto of the military should be: "Never will I put you at greater risk than what I share, but for when the mission means more or death cuts honor's bond."

"Leave No Man Behind!" is a crock.


KP

[edit on 28-4-2006 by ch1466]




posted on Apr, 26 2006 @ 08:54 AM
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Well then, obviously there's no use arguing with you as no one else has been persuaded by your "soothing words"; it doesn't matter anyway.

Because we are optimistic about the lives of those who were still trapped at the top of the towers, because we are optimistic about the lives stuck behind enemy lines, because we are optimistic about the people still out there who haven't lost hope and are still fighting.

If you play the no risk game in War, you will lose garaunteed. There is no playing by that strategy in war, war is risk, that is what it is, losses are garaunteed, all you can do is try your best to stop the war as swiftly and quickly as humanly possible.

I can't force you to understand that, but for me, I'm sold.

No man gets left behind.

Shattered OUT...



posted on Apr, 26 2006 @ 09:17 AM
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Way to go Shatter,
if I had more WATS you’d have it. Humans are always valued above machine and you’re absolutely right, you should never leave a man behind when you have the ability to rescue them. CH does not understand this, to him its all money and numbers, his rants about manned fighters, and well… basically anything manned should have been a sign.
Special Forces especially take unimaginable risk on their missions to make sure that everyone else does not have to, and for someone to even contemplate that a chopper is worth more than them is insane and quite frankly insulting. I’m glad the US Military does not think this way and still has units dedicated to rescuing men behind enemy lines.



posted on Apr, 26 2006 @ 06:57 PM
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Well, I can actually agree with some of the things that Ch1466 has said, although I will not touch on Mogadishu or 9/11 here. I'll keep my comments to the picture and story in the first post, SAR ops, and the motto of "no man gets left behind".

What I agree with most is that if a Cobra was picking up troops, something was wrong. Unless this was actually part of some level of training game, to see what in theory could be done. Actually, that would make a bit more sense, and explain why there was a PR present for an event that pretty much has "black op" stamped all over it.

Somebody raised the question of "Why didn't the Cobra 'cool' the LZ?". I'll sugest (assuming the event was completely real) that the LZ may have been cooled prior to the extraction. Once the area is clear beyond any doubt, extrodinary measures to accomplish what needs to be accomplished may be justified. Doubly so if the correct tool for the job (MH-60 or UH-53 or the like) wasn't present, or couldn't get in there before the LZ was expected to get hot again. There is no doubt though, an AH-1 is NOT a passenger aircraft. I could concieve however, using it to re-locate the area of distress. If the 'enemy' is fourty miles off in thier assumption of where you're trying to do an extraction, it'll be a heck of a lot easier to get the right assets in there.

The reason we do SAR, and CSAR is because troops will be hard pressed to fight anywhere near as hard if an alternate descision is made. A warfighter, be they a downed airman, or isolated unit, can last much longer and accomplish more fighting for thier survival if they KNOW it is only a matter of time untill they are out. Change that, and you make it only a matter of time untill they are dead. I know I said I wouldn't mention Mogadishu, but it IS worth mentioning that not every soldier who went in died.

As for the costs involved, unfortunately, human life does have a value in a strictly military situation. However, that cost is so high that I'd gladly have lost the airframes on half a dozen cobras if I could get two more people out. Just on cost. If anyone wonders just how humans can have a price tag attached, and then make that number so high, consider what it cost to put that soldier, sailor, airman or marine where we are extracting him (or her) from. You had to recruit that person. You had to train that person. You had to provide meals, uniforms, and housing for that person. A tremendous amount of time had to be spent continuing to train that person, and progressing through thier carrer. Did I mention that all this time, while they were becoming more and more expierienced and valuble, you had to PAY that person? Of all those factors though, the two biggest are the cost of training them, and the vast amount of time developing them from the raw recruit you got right out of high school.

All this arguing, and still I wonder, what was actually going on that a PR was riding around supposedly in a helicopter with no passenger seat. Something in the description just doesn't quite work out.



posted on Apr, 26 2006 @ 08:42 PM
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Traveller, I'll promise to be nice if you promise to learn to read....


MY post, very, very clearly STATES THAT A PJ TOOK THE PHOTO from another Helicopter... A PJ... A United States Para Rescue Jumper Combat soldier.

NOWHERE does it say PR as you say it does....NOWHERE.

The Cobra landed, the GUNNER got out, opened up the ammo bay door, got back into the cobra, and they lifted the SEAL's out of harms way.

The cobra flew to a place where the PJ and ANOTHER helicopter were waiting to collect these rescued SEAL's.

AT NO POINT DOES MY DESCRIPTION SAY PR.

as for what helicopter the PJ was riding in I have no ideas. Sorry, but twisting a threads not funny. at all.


M6D

posted on Apr, 27 2006 @ 01:09 AM
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mad greebo, i dont think he was actually saying that the event was a publicity event, i think he was theoryising it because CH mentioned that apprently 'no helicopter would fly that close' despite the fact that modern cameras have this brilliant invention called a zoom on them.

anyway, i dont think you needed to treat him so harshly to be honest, he was only putting foward a theory.



posted on Apr, 27 2006 @ 09:14 AM
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Travellar,

CSAR in DS frankly _sucked_. And every pilot going in KNEW IT WOULD. Because the radii were long and the assets were short and we had a lot of other things to do with them.

But it was a short war for which a few dead aircrew or beaten POWs on TV did not affect 'morale as it stood'. That is the difference between going in expecting to FINISH THE FIGHT and fighting desultorily afterwards to sustain 'presence' as a function of economic gain and conservation of force structure.

Where is the prep to FINISH THE FIGHT in Pakistan? This more than anything is what makes 'life so precious', as a function of having to avoid captures, that you make major tactical mistakes overextending to pull people out. Or fail to accomplish the mission because you won't push them hard enough.

OTOH, what noboby acknowledges is this:

1. PJ's don't ride in Cobras. They are an asset found on MH-53 and MH-60 and presumably any other multi-passenger airframe where the lack of weapons system competence doesn't impinge on the effectiveness/survivability of the weapon platform. There is also little sign of edge-of-field artifacting and warp transition sufficient to suggest zoom apparatus and it's consequent effects on motion blur. I am suspicious as to the authenticity of the shot for this alone.

2. If you trade 'the cost' of six helicopters for 'the value' of two men whose lives are saved, you are IN EFFECT showing a willingness to trade 'the value' of 12 more men as Pilot:CPG teams aboard them. They are not separable entities and the Pilot:CPG 'cost' more to train.

Unlike a Huey, you lose the tailrotor on a Snake and it's going in, you cannot hold it straight and level from any airspeed. At the same time, you unload ANY teetering rotor and then apply rapid transitional power change (as when evading sudden gunfire or if an engine is hit and the other must surge to cover power loss) in climbout and you risk a mast bump as the pitch-as-flap change comes into play.

This MULTIPLIES THE RISK as a function of stating whether you will have to /pay/ 'the cost'. Simply by _type_ of airframe exposed.

3. The unifying value inherent to any person /before/ military specialization is the 300-500 grande their parents will expend getting them from the womb to the diploma. That is what is ultimately, humanistically, thrown away on 'Long-Walk Got Real Short' type missions into a prepared enemy's terrain. It is also inherent TO THE MYTH of SOF being 'all that' as invincible, invisible, untouchable, warriors once surprise is lost.

None of the above excuses the men from making the choice to become contract killers for their country once they are adults with the privelege to do otherwise. But nor does it justify the misapplication of force to secure them when you have a 'PJ' on scene.

CONCLUSION:
The ONE time I have ever heard the 'better to be quick than prepared' in this context was again, when somebody took a hit with enough airspeed or power remaining as to be able to nurse the aircraft far enough away as not to come down directly among the bad guys. It's still a huge risk because (at least in SEA) the enemy were typically scattered all over the place to avoid mass-targeting vulnerabilities of their own and many times they had radio directed mortar or RCL support. But if you could get to your people as they crawled out of the wrecked bird, it was often easier (location, location, where's the damn location?) to effect an immediate rescue than wait for the next handoff.

In this instance, am I supposed to believe the SWOs CHOSE to limit further E&E options by entering what looks to be a high walled canyon complete with a central river to track their movements by. Split up as individual sections (starving themselves of team firepower in trade for massing their opponents on a single pursuit line), left two behind while they broke contact and sprinted like scalded cats to the Pave Hawk. And then sent in a RESCAP escort which had to LAND, break out the screw driver for the dzus, and take off again, without further suppressive support?

And they call me cold.

To me, this just stinks of PRBS in the long-LOS, limited-cover, conditions indicated by the picture.


KPl.



posted on Apr, 27 2006 @ 04:53 PM
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If find it ironic that while everything CH has EVER said indicates that his thinking is geared towards SAVING lives, on ALL sides by WINNING so completely and so fast that attrition never even enters the debate, he now stands accused of being 'insensitive' and 'unfeeling' when it comes to the type of war his ideas would in fact PREVENT. I am left thinking that most of the critics either have a hard time comprehending the English language or are just completely ignorant when it comes to what war SHOULD be all about.

It's NOT a sport thus making anything sporting COMPLETELY COUNTER PRODUCTIVE ( meaning,STUPID) and not something intelligent humane people would get involved in.

Stellar

[edit on 27-4-2006 by StellarX]



posted on Apr, 27 2006 @ 05:03 PM
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this happened in afganistan last year. the cobra is from the marine "reddog" squadron based out of atlanta. i dont know where the pj came in as it was my understanding that only reddog aircraft were involved. i'll check and see if i can come up with anything else on it.



posted on Apr, 28 2006 @ 12:42 AM
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ok, i cant find a link to anything other than the documentary. for those of you interested, it will be shown in the US on may 3rd at 10am and may 21st at 6am on the military channel. i havent seen it, but i am assured that the clip in question is in the documentary.

the shots were made by a documentary crew that was imbedded with task force red dog during their deployment to afghanistan in 2004 (not by a PJ). i didnt get the whole story, but the jist of it is that special forces needed to get to a position to head off suspected taliban targets and no rides were close by. so the cobra pilot rigged up a temporary safety strap and flew them up to the position on the helo's skids.

like i said, that whole sequence is in the documentary for anyone interested. i'll keep trying to find a write up on it online, but so far no luck.

edit....the times listed above for the airing are eastern standard time


[edit on 28-4-2006 by snafu7700]



posted on Apr, 28 2006 @ 02:21 PM
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snafu - Thanks for the info dude! I got the piccie from a poster at another forum (I'll not tell so as to spare blushes...) and made the mistake of taking it as Gospel...


So to all i apologise deeply - My post was unintentionaly misleading, I didn't deny ignorance and a FUBAR erupted.... to be sorted by SNAFU!! lol

So to all, again I apologise, take back all I posted, and will thank ATS for the fact we have great people who 'know the know'.


Cheers, Greebo.



posted on Apr, 28 2006 @ 02:45 PM
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Awesome Picture my Friend, love to see it Black.



posted on Apr, 28 2006 @ 03:23 PM
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Originally posted by MadGreebo
snafu - Thanks for the info dude! I got the piccie from a poster at another forum (I'll not tell so as to spare blushes...) and made the mistake of taking it as Gospel...


no worries man....it's still a great pic!



posted on Apr, 28 2006 @ 07:54 PM
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As for myself, I'm not sure where I got PR from, although that's actually closer to the original post than what I'd meant to type.

US Navy ratings:
PR - Aircrew Survival Equipmentman
PH - Photographer's mate.
I can't find a PJ for the US Navy. Is it a Marine specialty perhaps?

While the PH has pretty much no business in a firefight, the PR has every business in an airborne combat/CSAR mission.

Now, since it's been clarified that this was a rig-up to get INTO combat, with a known enemy on the move (and presumably to get to the desired fight scene before them) The whole dynamics of what they were doing changes quite a bit. Having improvised a seatbelt while they were at it doesn't hurt either.

Question, Is it worth the added risk to do things in completely unorthodox ways, in order to gain a tactical advantage such as defensive positions?
*edit: provided you already know where your enemy is?*

Obviously, this is no way to enter a hot LZ, and I'll never suggest it is.

[edit on 28-4-2006 by Travellar]



posted on Apr, 28 2006 @ 08:27 PM
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Originally posted by Travellar
I can't find a PJ for the US Navy. Is it a Marine specialty perhaps?


its an airforce pararescue jumper.



While the PH has pretty much no business in a firefight, the PR has every business in an airborne combat/CSAR mission.


i'd have to disagree. you'll find quite a few PHs in combat situations recording military operations for posterity. also, PRs are the old parachute riggers and still perform the same basic function along with a few other functions.....there are a few PRs working as SEALS however.



Question, Is it worth the added risk to do things in completely unorthodox ways, in order to gain a tactical advantage such as defensive positions?
*edit: provided you already know where your enemy is?*


having never been in combat myself, i would not presume to second guess decisions made in combat by others. however, i would assume its much like everything else in the military: if it works, you get an attaboy. if it doesnt, you get the blame.



posted on Apr, 28 2006 @ 09:11 PM
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Hey snafu I checked out the time and date for the show and here is a link about the program. I’ve seen this program before but not in its entirety, thank for the heads up though.

Tas k Force Red Dog



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