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posted on Apr, 22 2006 @ 09:30 PM
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I have learnt a lesson today - Never take another persons word for anything at all in life. To spare blushes i'll not tell who gave me the pic and info ( Another site, but some ATS folks may visit.) A great picture but its not a rescue at all... a drop off for Special forces....Info kindly provided by snafu....

< br />
Click on image for full size version.


[ModEdit: resized image to fit and added link to full size version]

[edit on 4/25/2006 by 12m8keall2c]


[edit on 28/4/06 by MadGreebo]




posted on Apr, 23 2006 @ 06:27 AM
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Well what can I say - not one single comment from no one..... A bona fida amazing piccie of a rescue behind enemy lines by a bona fida PJ, and no ones even interested in the fact that a AH-1 used its ammo bay doors as a seat for the SEAL's...


Never mind.



posted on Apr, 23 2006 @ 06:55 AM
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Originally posted by MadGreebo
Well what can I say - not one single comment from no one..... A bona fida amazing piccie of a rescue behind enemy lines by a bona fida PJ, and no ones even interested in the fact that a AH-1 used its ammo bay doors as a seat for the SEAL's...


Never mind.


SORRY HAD TO WORK TODAY MIGHT NOT BE ABLE TO RETURN TO ATS FOR AT LEAST 3 TO 4 DAYS

Nice picture and thanks for sharing it.



posted on Apr, 23 2006 @ 10:17 AM
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Originally posted by MadGreebo
Well what can I say - not one single comment from no one.....


Awesome picture, thank you for sharing it.




posted on Apr, 23 2006 @ 04:28 PM
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Cool picture, and this was the first day I actually saw the thread title cause I've been working.

Shattered OUT...



posted on Apr, 23 2006 @ 04:37 PM
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MadGreebo,

1. The Cobra and it's crew are worth more than all the SWO Daddys put together. 12-14 mil for a W. Upwards of 27 for a Z.
2. The CSAR recovery rate in Vietnam was less than 50% based on the notion of grandstand 'heroics over sense'. Indeed it was after analyzing that data that the ARRS were folded into SOCOM and the real longrange rescue system allowed to lag until lost (tankers and HH-3/53 numbers especially).
3. It was an operational mistake to put the second helicopter close enough for the apparent focal distance to capture the shot. It should have been WELL BACK while the first one went in. Both should have had RESCAP escorts.
4. A rear ramp gunner (also a SEAL I believe) fell out the back of a CH-47 which had to put petal to metal when it started taking fire in AfG. He fought for about 30 minutes, ran out of ammo and either capped his own ass or grenaded those who came to kick his corpse, the story varies. CIA analysts watching this wonderful event via Predator video, failed to notice that the man was dead and so two more rescue attempts went in and got mauled for /nothing/. Lesson Learned: Better the few to die bravely than the many to join them. Valhalla doesn't accept dummies.
5. If the helo takes them out like this, it cannot exit the dustoff smartly enough to be more than a target itself. If it needs to maneuver aggressively to do so, they will be lost. If it crashes, either because a man falls or is shot off and balance is disrupted at a bad moment. Or because it is flying a less than brilliant egress from the extraction, they will _all_ die, anyway.
6. If you want REAL smarts. You send in a VEHICLE to break the enemy lines and then RIDE back to a recovery point. Drive to the bloody sound of gunfire and if at all possible, bring a mortar with you.
7. If the situation doesn't merit a REAL rescue ability, then it's wise to for-pities-sake-30-years-later! invest in a followon opton that combines Fulton with the STABO or SPIES system so that you can _yank_ their sorry butts from the hotzone without having to slow-to-a-staaaawwwwp the vehicle which is worth more than all of them and four times as big an (explosive, whirling blades) target signature.
8. If modern day Sandy's had been on site, they would have strafed, mined and possibly gassed or smoked the surrouds for almost a kilometer out in every direction and would have been adding 'the sound of freedom' to further help intimidate the threat.
9. This is the U.S. Armed Farces. There is no damn excuse for 'heroics' when we have had 4 straight years of hyper inflated defense budgets with which to buy more useful items, in suitable quantities, than the forced-by-circumstances suggestion of an AH-1W as Jolly would merit as being brave over stupid.
10. It's not even original. The IDFAF did this very thing (with a downed pilot as I recall) using an AH-1F, back in the later 80's, just before the pullout from Lebanon. A WWII fighter pilot actually /landed/ in France to do the same. Both of them got their behinds well and truly chewed for the mistake. THERE ARE REASONS WHY IT IS MORONIC TO MAKE A HABIT OF THIS. Not least of which is _only your enemy knows when it is predictable_.


KPl.



posted on Apr, 23 2006 @ 04:53 PM
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CH1466 what can i say to a post like that dude -You better never call the police, never call the fire service, or the ambulance or even a doctor with that attitude - If YOU fall ill, just crawl into a corner and suffer will you? because, hey the effort to save you is more expensive than the money you put into the system...or the money to cut you from a car wreck is way way more expensive than what your worth....

What im trying to say is this..... Human Life has a value. One human brought back alive is worth more than every B-2, AH1, and all other arms combined. That this was done so that a man may live is way way the best reason any thing can ever be done.

But with your attitude it seems that life is expendable and / or cheap. Hope you never need emergency services ever, because if you hold true to your own values you'd say " nah guys, look im just not worth the effort....too much expense just for little old me...."



posted on Apr, 23 2006 @ 05:14 PM
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dude has guts

cant think of anything else to to type apart from that



posted on Apr, 23 2006 @ 07:31 PM
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Originally posted by MadGreebo
CH1466 what can i say to a post like that dude -You better never call the police, never call the fire service, or the ambulance or even a doctor with that attitude - If YOU fall ill, just crawl into a corner and suffer will you? because, hey the effort to save you is more expensive than the money you put into the system...or the money to cut you from a car wreck is way way more expensive than what your worth....

What im trying to say is this..... Human Life has a value. One human brought back alive is worth more than every B-2, AH1, and all other arms combined. That this was done so that a man may live is way way the best reason any thing can ever be done.

But with your attitude it seems that life is expendable and / or cheap. Hope you never need emergency services ever, because if you hold true to your own values you'd say " nah guys, look im just not worth the effort....too much expense just for little old me...."

Madgreebo, I have to say, this is the one post I agree 100 percent with.

The fact that you[Ch1466] would even consider putting the lives of those[Navy SEALs and other human beings] behind the equipment that the military uses is complete and utter ludacris.

America has the all of this high tech equipment more so; so that more lives can be saved, but according to you we should let those men die all for a few bucks. You know what? Go find an island and live on it for a few years away from civilization. It seems contact with you only makes people feel like dirt.

You know what Ch1466? Guess what, machines and equipment are expendable, lives aren't. Get that through you're head. There are 290 million American Citizens to pick up the tab for a few helicopters. The lives of those who die because the equipment wasn't used for fear of losing it, well how about you go to their families' homes and explain to them why their sons/daughters/brothers/sisters/fathers/mothers were lost all to save a few bucks.

Go choke.

Shattered OUT...



posted on Apr, 24 2006 @ 02:29 AM
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Guys, you shouldn't be too surprised, I rememeber Ch telling me that the RAF got the Battle of Britain all wrong and what they should have done was to just sit back and let the Luftwaffe bomb the crap out of London.



posted on Apr, 24 2006 @ 11:16 AM
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MadGreebo,

>>
CH1466 what can i say to a post like that dude -You better never call the police, never call the fire service, or the ambulance or even a doctor with that attitude - If YOU fall ill, just crawl into a corner and suffer will you?
>>

Militaries exist to take lives, not to save them.

Rescuers exist to do the job of rescue. If it was too dangerous, I would not expect them to blow their lives on nothing. 9/11 and a sorry bunch of dead firemen unable to assist the rest of NYC on 9/12, let alone raise their families, the rest of their lives, are what bad commits to bad scenarios with too many people and not enough leadership comes down to.

>>
What I'm trying to say is this..... Human Life has a value. One human brought back alive is worth more than every B-2, AH1, and all other arms combined. That this was done so that a man may live is way way the best reason any thing can ever be done.
>>

No they do not.

Attitudes like yours are why we not only lost 18 lives and crippled 80 more, but our presence in The Mog got busted out for a chance to save four men, three of whom WERE DEAD ALREADY.

And in-process ended up getting two helos downed and a third pilot /captured/ as a part of the No Mike Force, no gunships, no arty, no helicopter gunships, no armor NIGHTMARE that was waiting to happen in Somalia.

You go with the force you need already in place or you tell the man deploying you to go climb a GD tree. THAT is the responsibility of the unit commander who cares about his men's lives. To make sure the mission value and threat is met by the supporting systems capabilities to get the job done safe and sure BEFORE the call goes out for an emergency.

If not, the Can-Do 'tude of a bunch of hormonally challenged muzzle mutts puts their own 'assets' in places that nobody on this earth can or SHOULD HAVE TO try and pull them back out.

Already-dead-and-just-don't-know-it SEALs begets a chopper full of 18 fragged 'rescuers' on the wrong side of the AfG border being yet another 'for instance' that proves you _DEAD WRONG_.

>>
But with your attitude it seems that life is expendable and / or cheap. Hope you never need emergency services ever, because if you hold true to your own values you'd say " nah guys, look im just not worth the effort....too much expense just for little old me...."
>>

The difference between you and me is that I know for a fact that we are fighting a very real, very ugly, little COIN war now. Not airpower at 30K over a spread-for-the-eagles phantom Air Defense. Not an armored drive characterized by a lack of armored opfor against a defenseless capital.

But a REAL INFANTRY WAR in which every screwup, every major system exposure gives the enemy the belief that 'just a little harder!' will net them everything. And so you have to be more than perfect, just to stay afloat in a world where intimidating the sharks is everything you have to keep from being bitten in two.

CONCLUSION:
You DO NOT send gunships in to extract infantry. At most, you send MH or UH systems whose modicum of never-masked (lateral doorguns) firepower is accompanied by a big bloody cargo hold with jumpstraps to hold onto when the pilot stands the bird on it's nose and goes from 0 to 70 knots in a blink.

Not least of this being because if (say) a /little bird/ goes in with planks, THE GUNSHIP can provide cover. Which is what 'doing it's job' is all about.


KPl.



posted on Apr, 24 2006 @ 12:12 PM
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Originally posted by ch1466
Rescuers exist to do the job of rescue. If it was too dangerous, I would not expect them to blow their lives on nothing. 9/11 and a sorry bunch of dead firemen unable to assist the rest of NYC on 9/12, let alone raise their families, the rest of their lives, are what bad commits to bad scenarios with too many people and not enough leadership comes down to.
KPl.



way to go mate - great way to insult all the brave men and women who gave there lives on that day.


removed defamitory personal comment

from the T&C's
2) Behavior: You will not behave in an abusive and/or hateful manner




[edit on 25-4-2006 by masqua]

[edit on 25-4-2006 by masqua]



posted on Apr, 24 2006 @ 12:22 PM
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Nice picture indeed... I have to admit I love it...



posted on Apr, 25 2006 @ 03:35 AM
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Harlequin,

>>
Way to go mate - great way to insult all the brave men and women who gave there lives on that day.
>>

I'm not your buddy, pal or friend. If you want to judge me as I judge my own, I suggest you come _live here_ /mate/.

The order to withdraw had been issued and it was a lack of compatible radio systems which kept the word from getting out in time.

The difference being that if a REAL LEADER had been present, he or she would have:

A. Known that there were bound to be comms coordination issues.
B. Known that the buildings were doomed (as a fire analysis expert and
realizing they sat in each other's shadow as much as a common
basement core).
C. Realized that you DO NOT throw all your resources into the game when
this is clearly the FIRST ROUND of what could easily become a LOT
worse.

BECAUSE THAT IS HIS JOB. To be aware of the bigger picture.

>>
Fool.
>>

Would you say the same if I had been on Ground Zero and you, a grunt fireman wanted to go in and play hero and I looked at you and said "NO. Everybody Out. NOW." On my personal authority?

Or would you, beneath your snide judgmentalism, be secretly grateful that I took the hit on your 'bravery index'. When you walked through your front door and saw your kids smile up at you that night?

I guarantee you, if I had been the OC there, on that day, less than half the total losses in firefigthers would have occured. And NO ONE in the South Tower would have been there when Flight 175 impacted. Because I knew it was dead when the first one went in.

That's the difference between brains and balls. You want BRAINS on your side at ALL TIMES. Balls just gets you dead. For nothin'.



KPl.

removed derogatory and personal comment

from the T&C's
2) Behavior: You will not behave in an abusive and/or hateful manner




[edit on 25-4-2006 by masqua]



posted on Apr, 25 2006 @ 11:18 AM
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CH you obviously have no experience WHATSOEVER with military leadership to be throwing around your claims and 'facts' as you so do.

Neither do I, but I do have some clue as to where it begins.

Leave no man behind. That motto sits with most if not all Special Forces unit in the US military, to say that utilizing the Cobra to save the lives of those Special Forces was a waste of resources is to speak blasphemy about what those men/women fight for and believe in.

You are the one mistaken Ch, as no one else in this board that I have come in contact with views this the same way as you. I would never EVER want to be under your command. I would hate for you to put my life before the value of your equipment.

Go shove it.(I'm sorry, but this is just rediculous, someone had to say it)

Shattered OUT...

[edit on 25-4-2006 by ShatteredSkies]



posted on Apr, 25 2006 @ 01:52 PM
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One question about the "HOT" LZ evacuation with a AH-1 Cobra...

How come the cobra didn't "cool" the LZ? What possible enemy at the moment poses such a threath to US spec ops that a Combat helo can't deal with? Why the rush? that wasn't a medevac since the seriusly wounded men don't ride that way...

Were they going to be late from BBQ and Beer? (joke)




One thing I've never understood is the sacrificing of soldiers lives for extraction of dead bodies? Dead man is a dead man, no matter where the flesh lies, comrads will honor their brothers in arms. Out here we do try to retrieve our dead, but everyone in Recon units knows that bodies will be left behind if they might cause more casualities (and my squad has made a pact that in case of severe wounds everyone will know that wounded may get a "OD" of morphine if they slow down the rest and endanger the mission)

Ps. You have to remember that if we fight we fight for survival of our nation not for "iraqi freedom" or "to spread democracy", it puts you into whole different mind set



posted on Apr, 25 2006 @ 04:14 PM
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Northwolf, I can understand your logic of thinking. But think of this, during the Mogadishu massacre(as I put it as it was one), the bodies of 2 American Delta Force Snipers were stripped of their uniforms and dragged along the streets by Somali's.

The motto is "No man gets left behind."

Shattered OUT...



posted on Apr, 25 2006 @ 04:40 PM
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We boil down to balance. how do you balance out the importance of no man left behind againest lossing more men? In this case they used the cobra to not lose those men.Q. could they have lost 2 more plus equipement.....? A. yes but they didn't the pilot knew what he was doing and felt confident enough to do something. Maybe he was thinking it was his own choice to try and rescue the men stuck on the ground and he knew that they would do the same for him. If that pilot and gunner went down I bet you that that sqn that they picked up would be there is a seconf if they could. They would fight for their lives and the lives of other. their skill would be at its best to try and complete the mission. the greatest gift is a friend would lay down his life for his friends. As for 9/11 those men laid them down for strangers. I respect your openions Ch but I also know that lots of us disagree and I bet you knew it too when you posted.



posted on Apr, 25 2006 @ 05:48 PM
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ch1466......


Words fail me. I for once and speechless at the utter utter harshness of anothers words here on ATS...


quote "I'm not your buddy, pal or friend. If you want to judge me as I judge my own, I suggest you come _live here_ /mate/". unquote.


I judge you, and have found you wanting.

Forever more you are on my ignore list.



posted on Apr, 25 2006 @ 06:14 PM
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I understand the contentious nature of the debate in this thread. However, no-one needs to go down the road of calling each other names irregardless of how they feel on the subject.

Let's all take a deep breath and maintain the high quality of the posts that I've so far seen in Aircraft Projects.



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