It looks like you're using an Ad Blocker.
Please white-list or disable AboveTopSecret.com in your ad-blocking tool.
Some features of ATS will be disabled while you continue to use an ad-blocker.
Originally posted by Nakash
Anglos most of them. I know this situation quite well since my stepmother is a Boer. I was also wondering if Mugabe was offering small plots back to people or just having them buy it back at a lowered price.
Originally posted by karby
everything. i think what happening in Iraq sickening. i think what's happened in Zimbabwe is sickening too. in any country, every place you look, it's everywhere. some people call it 'human nature', but i don't think it's natural to cause so much hurt and pain and misery,
and not feel a thing. it's the 'human's suck' syndrome, it's been around forever, and from the looks of it it's not going away any time soon...sometimes people can overcome it, however most of the time they don't.
i thought the invitation back was a step in a positive direction, but like many people here at ATS alone have shown, revenge is the law of the day, and no one is ready or willing to forvige(the blacks weren't, and the white's aren't appearantly) no matter how much potential good the outcome shows. my mistake.
i've been known to dream too much. i shouldn't think so positively.
not truly. the black population weren't starving before the arrival of whites...and i mean waaaay before.
pre colonial black population obviously knew something about how to feed themselves, esle they'd have all truly died out from starvation. so where did that knowledge go? and yes, Mugabe is a very short sighted man, i think we all know.
if your family (or members of your family) were severly maimed or murdered, and a mob of people chased you out of the only country you've ever truly known, would you not consider that a nightmare?
i don't mean it to belittle any other suffering occuring across the globe, honestly.
but while it's true that no one human problem should have precidence over another simply because of what the press choses to cover, i can only help but think 'baby steps'.
try taking it all in at once and your head is guaranteed to explode...or at least a melt down.
Originally posted by XphilesPhan
because the people in new orleans DID NOT take it upon themselves to try to leave that area, instead they RELIED on someone else (government) to aid them in the relief and evacuation.
They could of walked, swam, whatever was neccesary to leave. and dont give me that crap that they were to poor to drive, you COULDNT get out that way anyway!
They could have taken (instead of sneakers, plasma TV's, and clothes and beer) camping and survival gear and whatever fresh water they could carry and left.
Instead, being conditioned to rely on someone else (the government) they stood in the streets and waited for death.
because if you remember, a few months ago, bill cosby was encouraging them to take it UPON THEMSELVES, to invest money in education instead of athletic wear.
I dont understand why this is such a hard concept, and I never said they were lazy only conditioned.
make a way for themselves
would encourage the rise of mini dictators and warlords who control small areas for their own gain. Anytime you have people scraping for a living you have thieves and killers who will take the easy road no mater of race. Look at the old west in the united states. White thief's and killers and were everwhere killing and taking from others. Many warlord style gang leaders sprang up and used force to control "their" areas and what stopped them were determined law officers who were ELECTED because of their proficiency at catching or killing criminals and an overlapping law enforcement system. With a powerful law enforcement system you are always going to have corrupt people in power. This is why there needs to be a multi layered law enforcement system established. In the US we have City police ran by a police chief whom is elected by the city he or she will be governing. Next is County police. (The US is divided into states and each state is divided into county's)The county police is led by a Sheriff who is elected by the county. Next is the State Police . And finally you have the Federal Government law enforcement agencies. Without a rule of law you have anarchy which will always cause mass starvation and violence. After law and the rule of law is established then people will prosper.
Originally posted by Nygdan
Karby, StellarX, what are the white farmers being offered? Are they being given a discount, or are they just being permited to purchase the farms back? Or have the farms been re-organized into different allotments?
How has the Mugabe government tried to spin this as? Because it looks like something of a reversal on previous policy, are they admiting that or are they playing it down?
This is all very interesting. That part of the world has had a tumultuous history, but I think that it can still pull itself together and really come through as something great.
Also, as an aside, are the 'white' farmers anglos or boers mostly???
Just a little image from a news service to help people orient themselves:
Originally posted by Allah the moon god
Yes there were colonial evils but howfar back do you seek justification?
Do the indigenous native Americans kick out all caucasians?
I hope that the great man Mugabwe, succumbs to the evils he has created many fold.
Originally posted by StellarX
They will be given land back ( for votes one supposes) whatever their colour now that his restructured the country to ensure his own future.
As i understand one of problems were so much land going unused due to white farmers keeping the land ' in house' meaning that they would rather leave it unused but in fellowship than selling it on open markets.
In order to empower the poor farmers to have capacity to produce, the Zimbabwean government, through the ministry of local government, has developed a scheme in which the local government ministry will oversee the management of the 57 districts in Zimbabwe.
A District Development Fund will enable the distribution of tractor units to farmers.
Technical expertise to farmers is provided through the ministry of agriculture under a programme known as the Agriculture, Technical and Extension services scheme (Agritex). These support services are expected to empower the newly resettled farmers with the necessary skills that would enable them to take off.
Part of government plans include harvesting the waters during floods through a well-organised irrigation system. Already dam construction was underway as part of efforts to improve the storage of water.
two years from now whether we have drought or not we project that Zimbabwe should be self-sufficient in food production
The majority of white farmers have voluntarily given up their farms for no compensation at all, he added.
Originally posted by MadGreebo
I worked in Immigration detention for a few years - and one thing I can tell you is that the Black africans HATE each other with such a passion it is awe inspiring to behold.
They love to hurt each other, its the only way i have to say it - They took great delight in really really trying to knock seven shades out of each other - and all because of a tribal / racial slant ... and the scary thing?
When asked why they did it, they just shrugged and said because its always been that way - Congo / Nigeria was the best fights. wow is all i can say.
But heres the rub - stick white people in amongst it, and they join up, fight the whites, and when thats finished go back to fighting each other.
No wonder the continents in such a mess.
Whites should leave Africa to it - come back to europe - we need farmers, and im sure they'll even subsidise you all
Originally posted by Nygdan
I'm just wondering how it works. You go to some government agency, apply for the land, and now, if you are white, they consider giving it to you, whereas in the past, whites couldn't have any?
As mentioned before, seems really risky. Whats to stop the government from seizing the land again in the future?
Also, from what I understand, agribusiness requires a lot of capital investment; you need sowing and reaping machines, transport trucks, insectides and devices to disperse them, irrigation systems, etc etc. Is the government giving that out? Presumably no, no?
How can a farmer make these capital investments in machinery, when, in all likelyhood, the government will consider it their property, and take and distribute it at will?
A risk when private property exists, yes.
These sorts of plans have historically, as far as I am aware, failed, and miserably at that.
This is not the same as what I allude to above, but it seems like the 're-distribution and equalization' logic is in place for land, and having hte government supply some farm equipment means that the government will allways be able to recall and re-distribute that equipment.
This is a good idea.
This is an example of why central planning of the economy and real estate can be a problem.
The rain/drought cycle exists throughout the world, and, unless I am mistaken, existed in zimbabwe when white zimbabweans managed the farms.
More than 5 million people are in desperate need of food aid in Zimbabwe, according to the WFP. The government declared a state of disaster in April. However, the government's policy of seizing productive white-owned farms has compounded the problem. Even the finance minister, Simba Makoni, has admitted that turning the farms into smaller units has damaged productivity.
Zimbabwe is enduring its longest drought in 20 years, which followed exceptionally high rainfall that undermined the 2001 harvest.
The WFP reports that there are "staggering shortages", including a 1.5m-tonne cereal gap, as well as the "near collapse of large-scale
commercial farming due to land reform activities".
The proper response to a decrease in producivity and yeild is not to have a massive long term government programme.
Ironically, this article is from 4 years ago.
Why should anyone trust such blatant liars like this?
Never, in the history of humanity, has a large group of people given up large personal and private storages of wealth voluntarily without compensation.
Actually millions( if not hundreds of millions) of women around the world suffer this type of life so i find nothing absurd about people risking life and limb to do what they love which is this case means farming with some violent gangs around.
Originally posted by StellarX
And this is the problem they are facing. Without the white farmers they will be very hard pressed to get direct foreign investment to restart all these capital intensive programs as such investment requires foreign trust in the expertise of those involved.
The aim is control but with bad management such central control can have unplanned and rather adverse effects.
A risk that antagonizes very many people and that creates the exact situation they claim their trying to avoid.
As to the historical effectiveness one can only look at Western subsidies to understand that Western governments are just as involved in their own agri business even if their chosen method is to use tax funds instead of general reform to reach their goals.
Can western governments not affect redistribution by shifting funding to one sector or another?
If people will listen and if the land gets to people who actually want to farm it probably could.
It's really very bad and this situation could not have come at a more opportune time for the Western press as crop failure and land seizure conspires to make black people look the fools Western press loves portraying them as.
Why is that Ironic?
You can never trust blatant liars but you can not often avoid working with at least some of them
Since i do not i will only say that human history is rather odd, and lengthy, affair for one to make such specific and exclusive claims.
Originally posted by BlackOps719
StellarX - all I can say is kudos to you my friend. You have mastered the art of excuse making and taken it to an all time level of idiotic greatness.
And I apologize as well, you are RIGHT, who WOULDN'T want to return to work under such welcoming conditions!! Since they love farming so much, surely they wouldn't mind the roaming bands of "violent gangs" who rob them and terrorize them on a daily basis.
After all they LOVE farming. They will certainly be happy to return. Heck, they are obligated to return, so these poor warlords won't starve!! Where is Sally Struthers when you need her?
Your opinions and posts throughout this thread have been so unbelievably biased, non sensical and flat out ridiculous that I won't even bother to address them individually.
Instead I will assume that you are only interested in flaming this topic and those who read it.
Every time you babble on about the indignities and the injustices that excuse these criminals for the acts that they commit you lessen the resolve of the honest, hard working African people who are not out in hordes threatening innocent farmers, women and children with AK-47's.
Instead of making excuses why don't you instead do something constructive for your people.
Oh, that's right, it's easier to complain about inequality and injustice over an online chat board than it is to actually do something about it.
Blame away, blame your government,
blame the white Africans who remain there,
blame injustice, inequality,
lack of financial capital,
lack of know how,
lack of resources,
lack of rain,
lack of manpower,
lack of honest politicians,
lack of leadership,
lack of foreign aid,
lack of international interest,
lack of news coverage,
lack of racial identity, lack of unity
- whatever you choose - an excuse is an excuse, and these excuses
that you spew out are the same ones that have been used for the last two hundred years.
When is it going to be time to step up and do something on your own, something for yourselves?
I find that if you try hard enough you can manufacture an excuse to justify almost ANYTHING.
The only thing that I see missing is a severe lack of EFFORT.
Meanwhile Africa will remain the basin of prosperity and the bastion for human rights that it is so well known for today..(LOL) Best of luck !!