White farmers asked to return

Originally posted by XphilesPhan
The problem with most black communities is rather simple and apparently common no matter where they are from and that is they are dependant on someone else for their survival.

And every person you know is not dependent on someone else for his survival? While governments in general benefit from making their citizens ( or some other countries one's) dependent for their day to day survival on some government agency or another we will see this trend increase. Why would a imperialist/new world order/dictatorship want to educate people to look after themselves when such action will make them responsible and generally independent in thought( no need for monolithic government)?

Just like in new orleans.
Just like in this case.
Bill crosby tried to tell them this but theyd rather label him a "racist" or an "uncle tom". perhaps this stems from slavery, I dont know, I find it hard to believe that this would cross generations like this.

It's called education and the culture formed based on it if you did not know. Nurture > Nature if you care to check which means that entire societies can be conditioned given time and persistent effort by a group or groups that can hold such power for long enough.

Bill cosby old them to stop wasting money on sports stuff and "bling" and invest in education and books and they threw a fit. Education is very important for self growth. (one of the few things I agree with the liberals on).

And the rest of America do not waste time on such idle pointless things? The difference between black America ( insert whatever under-class you wish) is that the same opportunities simply do not exist to be exploited in systems designed to maintain such a classes to cause the friction required for rapid changes in societal norms.

Educational institutions only serves the states interest and if black people in America turn out so differently it's quite logical where one should look for the root problem.

a big concept that seems to have escaped them is self-reliance. Not dependancy on others or the government. This, IMO, is the basic difference between repulicans and democrats in the US.

There is no large-enough-to-notice difference between the American 'parties' however successful they are at creating that illusion in minds that were educated to perceive political 'debate' that way. Self reliance is something much talked about but in the end we would rather be part of a group whatever the cost to our 'independence'. We are after all still tribal creatures and persistent efforts over many centuries have not contributed much ( not like they have not been trying) towards atomizing, in social interaction, us for total dependence on the state/ruling class.

democrats wish to continue, either unknowingly or purposely, to force a people who are already dependant on others, to become further dependant on the government thus continue the slave frame of mind in the black community.

State socialism being the aim of this idea leading towards general dependence on state for daily needs. Imagine swiping your ID card to buy/getting X number of calories worth of food per day depending on your usefulness to the state as the final aim.

Republicans would rather strive themselves, to provide for themselves. (this was in theory and has resulted in cut throat business which is another matter entirely).

Corporate socialism being the aim of this idea leading towards workers being entirely dependent on their 'boss' for their welfare. Imagine Germany under Hitler and it's basically the little bit more evil twin brother of state socialism as this one is based on fear as much as it is on rewards for doing a 'good job' and not making 'waves'. You may have noticed that both systems results in much the same, your options are taken away with freedom being in fact nothing but having more viable options, the real difference being that the first is heavy on the sweets and the second heavy on the stick. They will either get you by incapacitating your mind ( fat inactive workers) or by incapacitating your body ( bruised inactive workers) with both leading to docile sheep like behaviour that demands being like EVERYONE else instead of being willing to assume the burdens of whatever your specific community is suffering. Globalise pain and suffering or general contentedness/happiness( especially when they create the perception of what that should entail) is just two means towards the same end of a new( or not so new; think Roman) world order.

Stop handing people things and make them grow. Make them self-reliant,just like that scripture "give a man a fish, you feed him for a day. Teach a man to fish and you feed him for a lifetime." and people say the christian bible is worthless......

The 'republican party' might still try to draw in the independent minded crowd but the idea is to change them NOT to keep them as they are as that is not the aim of many if any governments/parties/groups on this planet.

Stellar.

Originally posted by Flinx
XphilesPhan,

Why did you start talking about the blacks in Africa then start comparing them to the blacks in New Orleans?

because the people in new orleans DID NOT take it upon themselves to try to leave that area, instead they RELIED on someone else (government) to aid them in the relief and evacuation. They could of walked, swam, whatever was neccesary to leave. and dont give me that crap that they were to poor to drive, you COULDNT get out that way anyway! They could have taken (instead of sneakers, plasma TV's, and clothes and beer) camping and survival gear and whatever fresh water they could carry and left.

Instead, being conditioned to rely on someone else (the government) they stood in the streets and waited for death.

Then why did you go off on Bill Cosby and something about bling bling?

because if you remember, a few months ago, bill cosby was encouraging them to take it UPON THEMSELVES, to invest money in education instead of athletic wear.

I dont understand why this is such a hard concept, and I never said they were lazy only conditioned.

Originally posted by karby
now to try to clarify my position: please try to recall what it was that led the black population to react in the atrocious way they did.

Just to clarify what was so 'atrocious about it compared to what is currently happening in Iraq and many other places where western forces are at work?

the feelings were boiling under the surface for quite some time and it was just a matter before it eventually exploded.

Which goes to show that Mugabe was not a good reformer at all considering it took decades and the actions of almost rebel factions for this to happen.

now that a good portion of the country actually realizes that no matter what happened in the past, that white zimbabwean farmers did eventualy become benificial to the country,

They were always beneficial to the country as such even if the state chose not to invest the tax returns in the general upliftment of the country for a very long time. Mugabe can at the very least be blamed for not using the labours of white farmers to the betterment of the country and the people while he chose not to give the land back to his supporters.

will it be possible for the people of that country to backtrack their mistakes and move on? moreover, reguardless of what you may feel, will white farmers even want to come back after what happened to them?

Only a few people were involved including whites who thought they could just go on in the same old way forever and 'war rebels' who did not care about the country in general. The public at large were more involved by their inaction than by their action which is nothing new.

They will come back given the chance and some measure of security and please do not assume people do not realise where their jobs comes from

for the most part i agree with most of you. yes believe it or not, racism played a part in shaping what Zimbabwe is today, and if it was me and/or my family that had went through that nightmare, i wouldn't want to return either.
that part i'm not disputing.

What nightmare? We have far far far worse things happening on South-African farms but since it gets no press in the west i guess it matters not! Farmers in South Africa have always been in far more danger than those in Zimbabwe and that did not stop them farming or wanting to firm. Farmers are by their very nature people who take risks and having guns and death involved rarely removes their urge to live the way they do.

Stellar

Originally posted by BlackOps719
So let me get this straight....African blacks chase away the evil wicked undeserving white farmers at knife point,

Nope.

take their land by force, demand half of the financial rights to their businesses, all in the name of blatant racism operating under a racist Mugabe regime -

Nope.

and now that these white farmers have been chased away and the black Africans are left running the show suddenly they realize that they aren't smart enough or industrious enough to grow their own crops to provide food to feed themselves and are now starving.

Nope.

Now they want the white farmers to come back

"hey, I know we took your land and terrorized your families, but can you show me how to plant this corn?" lmao ...

Nope.

They deserve to starve. In this world what goes around comes around, why should these farmers have any pity for these butchers at all?

Well you have not gotten anything right just yet but maybe if you just keep going on pure luck will start working in your favour. What butchering are we talking about here anyways?

Why would they risk life and limb to go back into that warzone to help feed the scum who just brutalized and robbed them?

What war zone? How many people were involved ( almost non)?

That is like asking a woman who was raped to come over and fix dinner for her attacker, absolutely absurd.

Actually millions( if not hundreds of millions) of women around the world suffer this type of life so i find nothing absurd about people risking life and limb to do what they love which is this case means farming with some violent gangs around.

The moral of the story, don't bite the hand that feeds you, regardless of what color it is. But hey, I hear those grasshoppers don't taste half bad if you roast em right

The moral of story is that your a complete ignorant when it comes to this topic and that you should leave before everyone who has not noticed becomes very aware of the fact.

Stellar

Lets tone down the personal remarks ok

Originally posted by DeusEx
But, see, it's not 'a few people's mistakes'.

Depends on whether you see inaction as complicity...

This is governemnt supported lynch mobs ravaging folk's farms.

Not at all unless you consider their inaction to mean support when it is fact jut the type of thing a dictator sometimes has to allow to keep the support he has. Why do you think he would wait so long to do this if it was the plan all along?

I don't know abotu you, but I don';t know a farmer who has the time or patience to properly oppress a person in this day and age, much less in the disease ravaged, starving continent such as Africa.

What this have to do with oppression anyways? The farm workers mostly protected their white employers and far more farm workers died protecting themselves and their families than did white farmers. This was not a black vs white issue AT ALL but the western press were apparently ordered to make it such a issue.

This is public demand, and the rewards of public demand. Shows you what not educating the people does, but then again, how many of these people ASPIRE to education instead of nice rims and a new AK?

DE

Your buying into stereotypes created to alter your perception in the way it clearly did. Do you really believe that what you just said and if so please type up a few pages as to why you think anyone who lacks a education wants 'nice rims and a new AK' when both those things are norms that comes from the WEST ( gangsters/mafia meaning not African at all)?

Stellar

Originally posted by Amuk
Lets tone down the personal remarks ok

And the racial slurs and general pervasive ignorance as well i hope.

Thanks!

Edit: And while i am thanking people Byrd, Aceofbase, Nygdan and truth deserve a mention for actually , at least imo, contributing some useful/truthful remarks and that is saying a great deal considering the ocean of general ignorance i just had to wade trough.

I am sure your all awesome people but mabye it's best most if most of the rest of you rather not talk about Africa, poverty or for that matter anything related to things that are not specifically 'western'. The third world could clearly just as well have been called the tenth world without being any less descriptive.

Stellar


[edit on 22-4-2006 by StellarX]

Originally posted by StellarX

Originally posted by karby
now to try to clarify my position: please try to recall what it was that led the black population to react in the atrocious way they did.

Just to clarify what was so 'atrocious about it compared to what is currently happening in Iraq and many other places where western forces are at work?
---------------

everything. i think what happening in Iraq sickening. i think what's happened in Zimbabwe is sickening too. in any country, every place you look, it's everywhere. some people call it 'human nature', but i don't think it's natural to cause so much hurt and pain and misery, and not feel a thing. it's the 'human's suck' syndrome, it's been around forever, and from the looks of it it's not going away any time soon...sometimes people can overcome it, however most of the time they don't. i thought the invitation back was a step in a positive direction, but like many people here at ATS alone have shown, revenge is the law of the day, and no one is ready or willing to forvige(the blacks weren't, and the white's aren't appearantly) no matter how much potential good the outcome shows. my mistake. i've been known to dream too much. i shouldn't think so positively.

the feelings were boiling under the surface for quite some time and it was just a matter before it eventually exploded.

Which goes to show that Mugabe was not a good reformer at all considering it took decades and the actions of almost rebel factions for this to happen.
-----------------
no argument there

now that a good portion of the country actually realizes that no matter what happened in the past, that white zimbabwean farmers did eventualy become benificial to the country,

They were always beneficial to the country as such even if the state chose not to invest the tax returns in the general upliftment of the country for a very long time. Mugabe can at the very least be blamed for not using the labours of white farmers to the betterment of the country and the people while he chose not to give the land back to his supporters.
--------

not truly. the black population weren't starving before the arrival of whites...and i mean waaaay before. pre colonial black population obviously knew something about how to feed themselves, esle they'd have all truly died out from starvation. so where did that knowledge go? and yes, Mugabe is a very short sighted man, i think we all know.

will it be possible for the people of that country to backtrack their mistakes and move on? moreover, reguardless of what you may feel, will white farmers even want to come back after what happened to them?

Only a few people were involved including whites who thought they could just go on in the same old way forever and 'war rebels' who did not care about the country in general. The public at large were more involved by their inaction than by their action which is nothing new.

They will come back given the chance and some measure of security and -----
agreed

for the most part i agree with most of you. yes believe it or not, racism played a part in shaping what Zimbabwe is today, and if it was me and/or my family that had went through that nightmare, i wouldn't want to return either.
that part i'm not disputing.

What nightmare? We have far far far worse things happening on South-African farms but since it gets no press in the west i guess it matters not! Farmers in South Africa have always been in far more danger than those in Zimbabwe and that did not stop them farming or wanting to firm. Farmers are by their very nature people who take risks and having guns and death involved rarely removes their urge to live the way they do.
-------
if your family (or members of your family) were severly maimed or murdered, and a mob of people chased you out of the only country you've ever truly known, would you not consider that a nightmare? i don't mean it to belittle any other suffering occuring across the globe, honestly. but while it's true that no one human problem should have precidence over another simply because of what the press choses to cover, i can only help but think 'baby steps'. try taking it all in at once and your head is guaranteed to explode...or at least a melt down.

Stellar

[edit on 22-4-2006 by karby]

Stellar, what racial slurs?

And what the heck is 'passive ignorance' and what are the rules governing our treatment of it?

Originally posted by WIGAN MIKE
I actually met 2 south Africans when this was going on, 1 was white and fled to England,

"Fled"( from having to be part of the solution of the problem he likely helped created) probably being the right word depending on his age.

one was black and went to England a few years earlier, I talked to both of them about it..
It was bad enough taking the land of the white farmers, as it was, but thats not my main point, my main point is the way they went about it.

Why is taking white people's land specifically bad considering all the land that is stolen all over the world on a yearly basis? Were foreigners involved in this theft as i can show you how massive tracts of land are simply taken away from people and handed to western interest for a few coins. Why does being white and being stolen from get you such awesome press coverage?

1. Slaughtering whole white families.

Yes it's a mess and our government does not seem much interested in preventing it from happening. If we could get the press coverage the dozen dead Zim farmers got our government would likely be forced to action but i don't see it happening.

2. raping the white women and the little girls.

I suppose the very same people are involved in the hundreds( millions depending on what you will believe) of thousands of other rapes in South Africa so why does raping white people get such great press coverage again?

3. Having to sleep with a shot gun under the bed.

Is how every responsible person in the world should ideally live but since we are such suckers someone must actually first half way kill our neighbours ( or a member of our family) before we get them to put next to the bed to stop other people from taking liberties with our lives.

Also I know a couple of Nigerians, and a bloke from Guinee, and they told me that South Africans, don't like anyone who's not from there neck of the woods..MIKE

Well the South Africans these illegals compete with are normally very poor to start with and since we only get the intelligence Nigerians and foreigners ( who managed to get out of their respective hell-hole countries) it's blatantly obvious why their rather upset to get not only more competition but the expert kind. Nigerians are ( so goes the stereotype) rather good at business and supposedly even better at the illegal aspects of it.

Stellar

Originally posted by WyrdeOne
Stellar, what racial slurs?

If you did not notice them i am worried for you....

And what the heck is 'passive ignorance' and what are the rules governing our treatment of it?

EDIT :Well since my first remark was rather spiteful ( and you got the message so fast) i see no reason to leave it here. Amuk asked people to tone down the personal comments and my second comment in response was in reaction to the general pervasive ignorance, my opinion at least, that most of the comments on this thread clearly stemmed from. I hope that clears it up?

Stellar

[edit on 22-4-2006 by StellarX]

Fair enough on the my misreading 'pervasive' as passive.

Thanks.

[edit on 22-4-2006 by WyrdeOne]

I worked in Immigration detention for a few years - and one thing I can tell you is that the Black africans HATE each other with such a passion it is awe inspiring to behold. They love to hurt each other, its the only way i have to say it - They took great delight in really really trying to knock seven shades out of each other - and all because of a tribal / racial slant ... and the scary thing? When asked why they did it, they just shrugged and said because its always been that way - Congo / Nigeria was the best fights. wow is all i can say.

But heres the rub - stick white people in amongst it, and they join up, fight the whites, and when thats finished go back to fighting each other.

No wonder the continents in such a mess.

Whites should leave Africa to it - come back to europe - we need farmers, and im sure they'll even subsidise you all

Congo just had the "African world war" so it's natural that Rwandans,Congolese, Ugandans and so forth will hate each other after having a massive war. Nigeria the Muslims spend their time killing Christians. So it's not some "inborn ethic".

Originally posted by MadGreebo
I worked in Immigration detention for a few years - and one thing I can tell you is that the Black africans HATE each other with such a passion it is awe inspiring to behold. They love to hurt each other, its the only way i have to say it - They took great delight in really really trying to knock seven shades out of each other - and all because of a tribal / racial slant ... and the scary thing? When asked why they did it, they just shrugged and said because its always been that way - Congo / Nigeria was the best fights. wow is all i can say.

But heres the rub - stick white people in amongst it, and they join up, fight the whites, and when thats finished go back to fighting each other.

No wonder the continents in such a mess.

Whites should leave Africa to it - come back to europe - we need farmers, and im sure they'll even subsidise you all

MadGreebo, what does your experience in an immigration office have to do with white farmers of Zimbabwe? i think i was on the right track the first time when i commented that you were race bating, and here you're doing it again. MadGreebo, i'm asking you again: please stop bating my thread. if you want to start a whole new dcussion about why the continent of africa is in the state that it's in, then please go elsewhere. the fact is that there are many reasons as to why the the continent of Africa is in the state it's in, some of it can be attrbiuted to colonialism + an avid mix of racism fromm all sides, some of it personal responsibility. whatever the reason are, it's a whole new topic that this thread shouldn't even bother to scratch. i'm not talking about the state of the continent of Africa and it's people i want this thread to stay on the topic of Zimbabwe
thank you

Karby, I was hoping to see some kind of comment from you considering my ideas. Do they sound coherent to you? Silly? Already been tried?

Karby, StellarX, what are the white farmers being offered? Are they being given a discount, or are they just being permited to purchase the farms back? Or have the farms been re-organized into different allotments?

How has the Mugabe government tried to spin this as? Because it looks like something of a reversal on previous policy, are they admiting that or are they playing it down?

This is all very interesting. That part of the world has had a tumultuous history, but I think that it can still pull itself together and really come through as something great.


Also, as an aside, are the 'white' farmers anglos or boers mostly???

Just a little image from a news service to help people orient themselves:



Springtime in Zimbabwe

Mugabe



This is why so many would be wary about returning. (not a graphic image, just a map)

[edit on 22-4-2006 by Nygdan]

Anglos most of them. I know this situation quite well since my stepmother is a Boer. I was also wondering if Mugabe was offering small plots back to people or just having them buy it back at a lowered price. I'd be enraged to have to buy back my own land. I find this pretty despicable, these farmers were just as African as any of the people living there, and it wasn't just "Agrarian reform"- it was genocide pure and simple. Raping,killing, land seizing. I wouldn't return. Let the tinpot dictator (to paraphrase somebody on this thread) fall first.

I can understand not caring for mugabe, but I think (not knowing the situation first hand), that a lot of these people consider zimbabwe to be their homes, so I can see them wanting to return for the homeland and the people, but not mugabe.


This also brings up an interesting problem. Think about it. You're a dictator in an unstable country. You kick out one ethnic group, stealing their lands and abusing them. If anything, you'd NEVER let them back in, LET ALONE ask them to come in and to have them in a position of power, like this. How many people returning are going to be supportive of a coup d'etate should one start, eh?

What are the gun laws in Zimbabwe, will these farmers be allowed to carry and own guns, or is no one?

Originally posted by StellarX
What this have to do with oppression anyways? The farm workers mostly protected their white employers and far more farm workers died protecting themselves and their families than did white farmers. This was not a black vs white issue AT ALL but the western press were apparently ordered to make it such a issue.

I did a little more talking with some of my coworkers today who are immigrants from Africa (I got a nice cross-section... South Africa, Sierra Leone, Nigeria) and it was a fascinating conversation. It turns out that Mugabwe is almost universally despised and the consensus opinion is that he kicked the white farmers out because his poll numbers were low and he's bringing them back for the same reason.

His policies, they say are stupid, and after looking at the overall information one can't help but agree:
www.heritage.org...

This is public demand, and the rewards of public demand. Shows you what not educating the people does, but then again, how many of these people ASPIRE to education instead of nice rims and a new AK?

I'd say just about all of them. Unlike the US, education is valued in many other areas of the world. Two of my coworkers come from families that are illiterate... and they managed to get Masters' degrees. They've had a hard life, though.

Education is seen as the only way out. And, serously, what would they do with "wheels"? There's no place to drive a flashy car except on a few city roads. To them, it's a useless expense and beyond their means.

The average annual income is a mere $500.

Your buying into stereotypes created to alter your perception in the way it clearly did. Do you really believe that what you just said and if so please type up a few pages as to why you think anyone who lacks a education wants 'nice rims and a new AK' when both those things are norms that comes from the WEST ( gangsters/mafia meaning not African at all)?

Stellar

I have to agree with Stellar here, having learned more about the culture.

What I found out is how the community (tribe) and families work together to support each other in a system where there's a lot of theft and corruption and hardship. I also learned that land is considered clan property -- imagine having to negotiate with YOUR parents, siblings, nephews, nieces, cousins, grandparents, etc, etc to us a part of the land that the clan holds. While this works to an advantage, it can also be difficult to push a process through.

One thing I had meant to point out with the white farmers coming in is how their wealth (relative to the rest of the country) makes such an impact. Consider that number above -- teachers and professionals earn somewhere between $500 (US) and $1,000 per year. At that rate, they can't afford the gasoline to run a farm tractor.

A retiree (such as my dad) with a modest pension of $36,000/US per year could well afford to buy gas and electricity to pump water and run tractors. Furthermore, if he liked, he could arrange loans or credit -- things that the average citizen who might like to run a farm -- has no access to.

Ah, it's late and there's much more.

I just wish that many of you had the opportunity to talk face-to-face to some Africans like my coworkers. You'd come away with a very different picture of them. Their stories are fascinating and their culture is interesting. It's a shame some of you will never have the pleasure of knowing people like this.