OP/ED: Drudge Rape Poll: Disgusting

I dont think the accuser OR the accused names should be reviled till after a verdict is handed down

Hey, isn't that one of those whatchamacallits? A malapropism?

ceci,



I think you nailed it with this:

The media, in its worst capacity, puts the woman in an excruciating light. Not only do they put her entire sexual history on trial. They make her seem like she "asked for it", when rape is a crime of power.

Instead of addressing the rapability of women and the power structures involved it is easier to address how a woman in some way deserves it. The fact that a woman is still so easily doubted or blamed for her own rape is reason enough to keep identities private for from those who need to know. What you describe, of having your sexual history put on trial and made to feel as though you some how asked for, or deserved what you got, is a reflection of the structural and institutional violence still present in our society toward women and as in many cases the reason why women do not report rape to begin with.

To begin to make public the names of rape victims, confirmed or not, would be completely detrimental to any progress that may have been made in encouraging women to report rape.

The_Final (or anyone else), how do you define rape? I am just curious given that you said that rape is in many cases loosely defined and vague.

While I do think that if we were to reveal the identities of women who have claimed rape it would probably reduce the amount of false claims drastically, I think. However, imo, no matter what proportion of rape allegations turn out to be false, I think that privacy is necessary and crucial for those who suffer rape. I think a better solution would be some sort of severe penalty for those who do make false allegations given the fact that they make the situation ultimately more unberable for those who really have been raped and serve to further the disbelief around rape claims.

I think the fact that we are even talking about this says one of two things:
1)false rape allegations are prevalent enough to create a discussion surrounding the real need to have some sort of punishment and/or openness if one is to claim rape.

2)That our society is still in a period unwelcoming to justice owed to women who have been wronged by men and victimized by a man committing a crime of power which is demonstrated by insensitivity toward one of the very things that may enable a woman the courage to report the rape in the first place.


[edit on 20-4-2006 by geek grrl]

I'd like to agree that the identity of an alleged rape victim should be kept secret, especially in the media. That being said, if any woman can come forward and allege a rape against any man and have her identity kept secret, then shouldn't the identity of the alleged perpetrator be kept secret as well? Aren't we innocent until proven guilty in this country?

I don't care what anyone says. Once you are outed as an alleged rapist, even if you are ultimately found guilty, you can never escape the stigma of being a "rapist." It seems to me that most rape suspects are almost "raped" themselves in the media regardless of their guilt or innocence. Now I hope I didn't offend anyone with that last sentence, but I'm just trying to make a point here. If someone can make such a horrible accusation from the relative comfort of anonymity, then shouldn't the person they're accusing have their identity kept secret until their guilt is proven in a court of law rather than in the media?

Now the last thing I want to be accused of is defending rapists. I think that next to murder, rape is the most horrible crime one human can commit against another. And in some cases, being raped as well as the aftermath, can be worse than being murdered itself to some. I honestly think that some, if not all, convicted rapists should face the death penalty for their crimes. But we must also look at the total picture here. We have a criminal justice system where just about any woman can come forward and accuse someone of rape. That accused person then has their name ruined for life regardless of their guilt or innocence, while the accuser remanes nameless.

Sorry if I was repetative at all. I just feel that if our justice system is based on the premise that one is innocent until proven guilty, then maybe we should start treating them that way.

Originally quoted by geek grrl
The_Final (or anyone else), how do you define rape? I am just curious given that you said that rape is in many cases loosely defined and vague.

Yes here is the definition according to a quick Google define search:
Rape is a crime wherein the victim is forced into sexual activity against his or her will, in particular sexual penetration. It is considered by most societies to be among the most severe crimes.


So basically what I am saying is that the only prerequisite is that you have to have sex. Or not, there is no way to prove if you had sex with someone a while back. But lets assume you have sex, for the sake of argument, all the girl has to do is say rape afterwards. She doesn't have to warn you during sex, because she can make this up in court and there is no way to defend yourself. Your word vs. Her word. So really what defines rape? Going by the definition I provided it is incredibly easy for rape to happen. But this can't be changed, because that is what it is, even if to qualify for rape is easy...it is still rape.

The_Final,

I do not think the problem is how rape is defined. Rape is, quite simply, being forced into sexual activity against their will. The problem is people abusing the ease with which they can claim rape. You are right - when a claim of rape is made, save potential physical evidence it can come down to he said/she said. That is where the issue of punitive measures comes in for those who would abuse and utilize what is a real tragedy for their own puposes.

What defines rape? Being forced, against ones will, into sexual activity. What constitutesdishonesty and lying and not rape? Claiming rape when the sex was consentual due to later misgivings. There are some, however, who would argue that within a society in which women are oppressed and coerced, there is no such thing as consentual sex and that all forms of sexual relations, no matter the percieved (due to coercion) consent, constitues rape.

It is very interesting to look at that argument.

dannia
The rape card? What rape card? What the hell does that mean?

You are overly sensitive and I trivialized nothing.

Rape is a serious charge. If the identity of the woman should be shielded then so should the identity of the man unless convicted. Why should a mans reputiation be destroyed based on an unproven accusation from an anonymous accuser. People are willing to do and say outrageous things when they can remain anonymous. ATS is pretty good example of this happening.

Either both should be shielded or neither. As I favor a fully transparent judicial system, I believe that neither party should be shielded as shielding both would require secret trials and I believe we already have too damn much secrecy in the US without adding this type of stupidity to mix. To suggest only shielding women is outright discrimination against men.

IMO, they should keep her identity secret unless the man is proven innocent. If hes guilty or theres no verdict, it should be kept secret otherwise it will stop other women coming forward to police.

df1 said

I find it outrageous that a woman can ruin a
mans life by playing the rape card without revealing her identity

This is disturbing on so many levels ...

The woman hasn't ruined anyone's life. In fact, the way it looks
right now, with the exception of the prosecution, no one believes her
and HER life is the one that will be 'ruined'.

Rape card?? That's disgusting. I have never heard this term and
it is disgusting. If someone is raped and they say so, that isn't
'using a rape card'. There are some instances of people being
falsely accused of rape, but never in all my decades of life have I
ever heard anyone say 'rape card'. Like false rape accusations
happen in vast numbers??? Maybe they do .. maybe they don't
.. but 'rape card' just rubs me the wrong way. Sorry.

A rape victim should never have to reveal her identity to anyone
outside the court room. It's just that simple.

A rape victim DOES reveal her identity to the one she accuses
INSIDE the court room.

YES .. keep the man's identity a secret as well. That's fine.


[edit on 4/21/2006 by FlyersFan]

quote from The_Final

Rape is a crime wherein the victim is forced into sexual activity
against his or her will, in particular sexual penetration ... the only prerequisite is that you have to have sex.

No ... it's not 'the only prerequisite'. FORCE is the word you omitted.
FORCED sex is the prerequisite. Not just sex. That's a pretty big
word to leave out ...

The woman hasn't ruined anyone's life. In fact, the way it looks
right now, with the exception of the prosecution, no one believes her
and HER life is the one that will be 'ruined'.

That's just it, this woman may have fabricated this entire story and now these two men may forever be branded as rapists because of this allegation. Even if they are ultimately found not guilt they will forever be looked upon differently, do you know what kind of burden that might be? All the while this woman remains anonymous and faces no criminal or civil charges for ruining the life of these two men? What complete and utter BS (that's not directed at you flyersfan, I know you said the man’s identity should be kept secret).

So either both identity's remain anonyms until there is a guilty verdict or both identity's are made public.

Als, in the court of public opinion these two men even if found not guilty will for be branded as rapists. If that's how this case turns out then they should sue her A immediately afterwards. That way her identity can be made public and she can pay for her false accusations, in more ways than one.

Rape card?? That's disgusting. I have never heard this term and
it is disgusting. If someone is raped and they say so, that isn't
'using a rape card'.

What that means to me is a woman thinking “Hey I don't like this guy, let me accuse him of rape and get his reputation all ruined and let me get his name all over the news. And if he’s found not guilty what do I care? There are no repercussions for me, hell, no one will even know who I am.” That’s just not right. :shk:


[edit on 21-4-2006 by WestPoint23]

Originally posted by Nerdling
Trial by media never works out right.

I concur, Nerdling, and yet, down here in the Triangle, these boys are being tried daily in the media.

It is very easy to say, "let's defer to the 'victim' of this terrible crime by not releasing her identity." But, what if she is full of crap? In that case, who is the victim? Have we deferred to them by having the pictures of the 40+ lacrosse players on the front page of the Raleigh News & Observer a few weeks back?

It is very easy to say, "trial by media never works out right." But, what about the boys who are actually on trial in the media right now? Is the alleged victim so sacred that on her behalf we are willing to vilify 47 boys (knowing that at most, according to the alleged victim, only 3 were involved) daily in the press? Is she so sacred that, under protection of anonymity, she and the prosecutor in this case are allowed to use the media to tarnish the school and community?

That’s garbage! I’m not suggesting we release her identity, but at the same time that we have to be sensitive to the plight of the victim, we need to be sensitive to the plight of the accused. Their names should not have been released either. Most Americans will have made their decisions on this case long before a verdict is rendered. And on what? Media coverage. Daily briefings given by the prosecutor. Statements by the second stripper. No matter what the outcome, these boys will carry this stigma with them for a long time.

Why?

Why is that acceptable to so many here, when it is not acceptable to reveal the accuser?

Finally, I believe that this case has some serious flaws, and there are some serious questions to be answered. I believe that a lot of folks here in the Triangle recognize this. I’m not sure, though, if many people outside of NC understand how convoluted this case is. Maybe if they realized how spurious these charges sound given the evidence with which we’ve been presented, they’d be more for covering the identities of the accused as well as the accuser.

At least until we actually find out who the “victim” really is.

No ... it's not 'the only prerequisite'. FORCE is the word you omitted.
FORCED sex is the prerequisite. Not just sex. That's a pretty big
word to leave out ..

Except since force is based on perspective, what I might think isn't force someone else could interpret as force. But since the whole idea about force can easily be made up since its not like if you were forced to have sex you would have a little blue dot on your cheek. It's a matter of opinion, in some cases once agian I am just talking about the extrene cases where women make it up to ruin a man that they were mad at. Not that this happens 100% of the time, but the fact that it happens is wrong.

Originally posted by WestPoint23
So either both identity's remain anonyms until there is a guilty verdict or both identity's are made public.

THAT I agree with .. that both should be anon.

The TV news is reporting that one of the two men arrested
for the alleged rape is also wanted on charges in DC for
assault on a homosexual man. I don't have the name of
which of the two men and I don't have a link. It was JUST
on the TV news.

Originally posted by WestPoint23

The woman hasn't ruined anyone's life. In fact, the way it looks
right now, with the exception of the prosecution, no one believes her
and HER life is the one that will be 'ruined'.

That's just it, this woman may have fabricated this entire story and now these two men may forever be branded as rapists because of this allegation. Even if they are ultimately found not guilt they will forever be looked upon differently, do you know what kind of burden that might be?

Yes, they won't be looked upon as those nice white boys who hired a black stripper to their home. My God! Their good name will be ruined!

[edit on 21-4-2006 by curme]

Yes, they won't be looked upon as those nice white boys who hired a black stripper to their home. My God! Their good name will be ruined!

Don't be cynical, if you have nothing to add, don't post. Having a party at college is a whole lot different then being branded a rapists when you have not done anything to deserve it.

What needs to be done here is to increase the punishment and the publicity on the number of false accusations rape that are occuring these days. There have been too many cases of a woman recanting her story when it has failed to result in a cash payment for her silence. As I recall a couple of years ago Jerome Bettis of the Steelers was accused of raping a woman, this was later identified as an extortion attempt.

As far as the Duke incident is concerned I don't know one way or another what happened. If she was raped then the men who did it deserve punishment, but what if she wasn't raped? These men have had their names trashed by the media, Duke cancelled their Lacross season, some of them have been suspended by the University and the Lacross coach has resigned. These men are already being punished even before they have been charged with a crime. Yes they may be bigotted jerks, but the last time I checked that wasn't a crime.

I am all for same and fair. If they release the name of the two men "accused" of raping the woman, they should release her name also.

These men are accused, not convicted of a crime. By releasing their names, their reputations are permanently damaged, even if it is found that the woman lied.

So here it is, if you release the "alleged" attackers name you should release the "alleged" victims name.

Until a jury trial is done, the men are innocent and she is not a victum of crime, legally!

There was a story just after the story of the guy who killed his pregnant girlfriend.
A woman disappeared and the media had practically convicted him of the crime of murder.
However, she WAS found, she had left on her own-cold feet for upcoming wedding.
Ok, no crime committed by the guy.
But his reputation was destroyed and he can't find work because of this BS.

I still haven't figured out why any woman would put herself into such a position by claiming she was raped. Answer: she WAS raped. So what if she was a stripper? Not all strippers are whoes (though I still think working in anything else is better than it).

Originally posted by dannia
The rape card? What rape card? What the hell does that mean?

A woman can have concentual sex with a man and then afterwards claim he raped her and noone can say otherwise because they were alone in the room.

So before you have sex get a signed concent form first!

Originally posted by mrmonsoon

So here it is, if you release the "alleged" attackers name you should release the "alleged" victims name.

Until a jury trial is done, the men are innocent and she is not a victum of crime, legally!

There was a story just after the story of the guy who killed his pregnant girlfriend.
A woman disappeared and the media had practically convicted him of the crime of murder.
However, she WAS found, she had left on her own-cold feet for upcoming wedding.
Ok, no crime committed by the guy.
But his reputation was destroyed and he can't find work because of this BS.

I agree 100% but to the opposite.
Noone's identity should be released until after there is a verdict.