Where did I utter B.S.? Oh wait, I don't worship the gospel of Rick Ross and Margaret Singer so ANY disagreement with them is b.s. Thanks for pointing that out.

Oh and please stop white washing the PRC.

Are you kiddin me? Rick Ross and Margaret Singer are RESPECTED Cult Experts. How DARE YOU reduce their credibility because what they said is against your arguments. That is pathetic. Please, are there any disagreements with them? Have you ever EVEN bothered to post a disagreement by someone who is a respected expert in the study of cults? No... you havent, so until you do, I suggest you actually read what they have to say.

And how the hell am I white washing the PRC? Those things that I have mentioned ARE TRUE... if you would rather dwell in your ignorance and hate for the PRC rather than to just READ a bit of what they have actually done for the Chinese people, then I suggest you stop posting here at ATS. We're here to deny ignorance, not spread it.



[edit on 21-5-2006 by k4rupt]

Oct, whenever you speak, you do more harm to your arguments than when you keep your mouth shut.

Does anyone know what I mean? He posts from a source that is AFFILIATED with Falun Gong and repeats, "THE CCP IS EVIL." Honestly, does that add to the "deny ignorance" here in ATS. I have said REPEATEDLy for him to stop doing that... he fires back calling me a CCP NET AGENT and does the EXACT SAME THING, posting from the SAME CROOKED SOURCE AFFILIATED IWTH FLG and UTTERS "THE CCP IS EVIL."

I don't even know why I bother arguing with you...



These "ordinary people" are EXPERTS in the study of cults. They are respected, just read their biographies. How dare you people try and reduce their credibility because they are against your arguments. That is low and pathetic.

Please, be my guest to post people who are of the same level and respectability as Margaret Singer and Rick Ross WHO HAVE SAID that Falun Gong IS NOT A CULT. Until then, I suggest you take what they have to say in consideration.



[edit on 21-5-2006 by k4rupt]

K4rupt, you never answered my question.

I asked how is Falun Gong an EVIL cult. You have referred to them as an EVIL cult quite a few times. Then, when pressed, you provide us with cult experts who say they are a CULT. Where did they say Falun Gong was an EVIL cult?

Tell me some of the EVIL things Falun Gong has done. See, you're calling them evil without anything evil they're doing. Meanwhile, the Chinese govt has forced abortions and guns down political dissents. Some would call these type of actions EVIL.

Well, let me give you some more info about this:

Critics of Falun Gong in the West argue that because of the relationship of dependency that Li Hongzhi establishes between himself and his followers, using what they say are a variety of manipulative techniques, the Falun Gong should be thought of as a cult rather than a new religious movement or metaphysical qigong. A number of American cult experts, including Rick Ross, Margaret Singer and Steven Hassan, have claimed that Li Hongzhi meets their definition of a manipulative cult leader. While cult experts have not reached a consensus definition for a cult, they often focus on what is considered the coercive behavior of the group leader as an indicator for the potentially damaging aspects of a particular group. In a New Times article (March 23-29, 2000) cult expert Margaret Singer stated: “Some will say it’s not but Falun Gong looks like a cult to me. My criteria is a self-appointed person with secret knowledge to share, who gets his followers convinced he is the pipeline to the eternal good life. Doesn’t that sound like Master Li?”

Different theories of what constitutes thought control have also emerged, but again without consensus. American psychologist and exit counselor Steve Hassan has “grave concerns about the personage of Li Hongzhi, head of the Falun Dafa and his organization.” [62] In his 2002 book Releasing the Bonds: Empowering People to Think for Themselves, Hassan describes the BITE (Behavior, Information, Thought and Emotion) model, which explains mind control as a combination of control over behavior, information, thought and emotions. Hassan believes that Li Hongzhi “comes very much out of the cult extreme, the authoritarian stereotype” [63]. On his website [64], Hassan states:

As far as the controls exerted by the group on individuals, I am not convinced that this group (Falun Gong) fulfills my BITE model in its entirety. I have not had an opportunity to interview any individuals who have been very involved with this group and decided to leave. I do have a strong impression that Thought control and Phobia indoctrination (emotional control) is very much used. People are made to feel that the only "true" path is by following Li Hongzhi, and that to fail to do so would result in serious physical health problems manifesting.

I mean... these guys who state this are AMERICAN experts in the field and study of cults. They have dedicated their whole lives in combating the effects of cults and cult leaders. How DARE YOU people belittle them because what they say is not what you want to hear. That is disgusting. These guys are Americans, who (i believe) have no relations to the PRC.

I have asked you guys already to post a statement from someone who has a strong background and respectability in the study of cults who has argued that FALUN GONG IS NOT A CULT. Until then, I suggest you people take it upon yourselves to see why plenty of American Cult Experts label FLG as a cult.





[edit on 22-5-2006 by k4rupt]

You STILL haven't answered my question...

What have they done that is EVIL?!?! Oh, that's ok, I noticed you backed off the "evil" and now focus only on the "cult..."

Originally posted by k4rupt

Where did I utter B.S.? Oh wait, I don't worship the gospel of Rick Ross and Margaret Singer so ANY disagreement with them is b.s. Thanks for pointing that out.

Oh and please stop white washing the PRC.

Are you kiddin me? Rick Ross and Margaret Singer are RESPECTED Cult Experts. How DARE YOU reduce their credibility because what they said is against your arguments. That is pathetic. Please, are there any disagreements with them? Have you ever EVEN bothered to post a disagreement by someone who is a respected expert in the study of cults? No... you havent, so until you do, I suggest you actually read what they have to say.

And how the hell am I white washing the PRC? Those things that I have mentioned ARE TRUE... if you would rather dwell in your ignorance and hate for the PRC rather than to just READ a bit of what they have actually done for the Chinese people, then I suggest you stop posting here at ATS. We're here to deny ignorance, not spread it.



[edit on 21-5-2006 by k4rupt]

All you have done is give me two names of people who define cults for a living so of course it is in their interest to spin any spiritual organization into an "evil cult". They would be out of a job if they didn't.

And yes you do white wash the PRC. They kill thousands a year based on 65 different crimes. They put people in prinson and run them down with tanks for protesting.
Grow up! And learn what you are talking about!

　　
And yes you do white wash the PRC. They kill thousands a year based on 65 different crimes. They put people in prinson and run them down with tanks for protesting.
Grow up! And learn what you are talking about!

A ccp's agent or a deeply brainwashed lover of ccp refuses to face the reality, and refuse to grow up as an indepentant thinking man.

I think 'cult' might be something of a relative term. Was Jesus Christ a cult leader? Buddha? Or is it not a cult, when you're 'in' the cult?

Also I think there's some cultural differences that should be addressed. The AMERICAN cult experts in question apparently speak as if religion/occultism/spiritualism etc. are governed by universally applicable standards. That's a bit ethnocentric, imho.

Is that all you got, k4rupt? "They think some guy is their savior." Rofl! Nice to see you can't back up your evil claims about them, though.

Back on topic, why do people want this lady thrown in jail? It's like when Alex Jones asked then governor Bush a question and was arrested. Unbelievable.

there's nothing wrong about the falung gong/falun dafa, like with the tibetans, i wont mention all the facts again and i don't mean i think they're perfect, but no point to kill them for their organs or else stupid reason..

k4rupt

Ok, finally we agree that the definition of "cult" is a matter of opinion.

However, you say that Falun Gong is evil because some people believe that Mr. Li is their only way to salvation. The key word in this sentence is believe

Does anyone have the right to persecute someone else for his or her beliefs?

This is my only point.

I'm not saying the CCP is entirely evil. Just that what they are doing to people who practice Falung Gong is wrong. Read those Wall Street Journal articles I posted and tell me you don't agree. For the record, I am also against the Iraq war, prison abuses, genocide in Darfur, the baby-selling business, the kiddie-sex trade, toxic waste, sexism, racism, global warming, military-corporate hegemony, and all the other injustices of this world. But none of these things are the subject of this thread and bringing them up simply distracts from the point.

Tens of millions practice Falun Gong. For a great many of these folks, it is simply exercise/meditation. Sure, there may be those who go overboard and believe whatever comes out of Mr. Li's mouth...but do they deserve death just because they do? And even if I give you the benefit of the doubt and agree that Mr. Li is trying to run an evil cult and is conning his followers....do those followers deserve abuse by the CCP because they were conned? Aren't they the victims in that case? Isn't it more reasonable that Mr. Li alone be held accountable for any wrong-doing?

I don't care if you believe that god lives on a moon made of green cheese and that Howie Mandel is his prophet. EVERYONE HAS THE RIGHT TO HIS OR HER OWN BELIEFS. They certainly shouldn't be beaten, imprisoned and killed because of them.

I sincerely hope you agree.

by the way...I am not a practitioner of Falun Gong, nor a follower of Mr. Li.
I'm just a human that hates to see humans hating humans.

peace

Originally posted by _VoiceOfReason_

EVERYONE HAS THE RIGHT TO HIS OR HER OWN BELIEFS. They certainly shouldn't be beaten, imprisoned and killed because of them.

Right!

voice, we have come to a very understandable agreement.

You're right, people should have the right to believe in whatever they want, and you're also right, the CCP should not abuse them.

However, I just got ticked off because nearly EVERYONE here arguing against the CCP know nothing of China and are really ignorant. First off, China does not KILL FLG MEMBERS FOR THEIR ORGANS, not even the Epoch Times mentions this.

Second of all, people here speak of the CCP as essentially pure evil and has done nothing good for China - this alone is pure ludicrous. Whenever I present facts and truths of what the CCP HAS DONE for the Chinese people, people here shrug it off as "white-washing" the PRC. They quickly hide back behind their covers believing that the PRC is pure evil.

Now, I am not here to justify abuses against anyone... I am here to stop ignorance. Everytime these articles go up about organ sales, people are quick to judge the PRC as nothing but evil. It's just like saying the United States of America is nothing but evil because of the Prison Abuses.


The PRC is not what most people here want to believe. It is ever liberalizing, growing, expanding... People are, generally, prospering. Even the Da Lai Lama has ended his call for Independence and has stated that "Tibet needs China." Many good things about the PRC go unheard here - how they rid the nation of bandits, warlords, foreigners who expoloitd the Chinese people, the elite class, gave women equality as of previous life of slavery... how more than a thousand Chinese soldiers died building a railroad that eventually led to the civilizing of Tibet, and other innumerous goods.

Now people see an article about Organ sales (which has been banned by the gov't) and automatically shrug off all the good things the CCP has done and start making FALSE statements such as the PRC murders FLG followers or that the PRC has 0% tolerance of religion - both of which is COMPLETELY false.

It's really hard to understand my point of view... I'm EXTREMELY furiated that people here who know nothing of the CCP are so quick to slander it stating things as it is pure evil... the same people who were quick to exploit China during the imperialist age, the same people who put up signs in Shanghai (CHINESE TERRITORY) stating "no dogs and Chinese." My people grew sick of it, and we chose the CCP to rid us of that, and by God they did.

Does it not sicken you if someone states that the U.S. is pure 100% evil and try to justify that statement by a... video of the Rodney King beatings or news of prison abuse? Well... people here at ATS (supposedly less ignorant than public westerners) are doing the same thing with the PRC... and to add to that, they are throwing in ignorant lies.

Now the CCP isn't all sunshine, but neither is any other nation on this world. The CCP has done things ANYONE would be ashamed of, but you people should NEVER DENY the good things that they HAVE DONE.

Voice, you seem to the few that actually have some sort of reason here, do you know what I'm trying to get at? Jeez... I feel like a Holden Caulfield.




[edit on 26-5-2006 by k4rupt]

USA & others are just as bad.
thay just keep it secret, or try.

taking tie chi & buddhism dos not make a religon.

I know I carnt spill!