Bosnian Pyramid Update

Originally posted by newtron25
Someone correct me if I am wrong, but if private research is to be conducted in archaeology then the work must also be coordinated with and supported by a university department, or at least the work must refer back to work done within that system.

Well, you're unfamilar with how archaeology is conducted and how digs and research happen. While a lot of it is done by universities (because digs are very expensive), some of it is done by foundations and organizations like the Texas Archaeological Society (I'm a member of that.)

Museums like the one I am working for also conduct digs using grant money, volunteers, and sometimes coordinating with universities.

Yes, science is built upon standards. However, consider this: what if those standards have been turned so sharply to produce profit so as to influence how the greater researchers and minds are given the obvious choice of following the funding to pursue their theories.

Sigh.

Perhaps you would enjoy joining your local archaeological society or taking a university course and learning more about the science? Something more than your speculations about what happens and how and why?

Although Osmanagic is a victim of his own avarice and over-zealous pursuit of his hypothesis, has he not also partially been unduly forced out of the establishment because of A) location of the site, B) possibility that the site may be of medieval importance, but not directly related to British medieval history and, C) unorthodoxy of his premise in beginning his research and, most importantly D) going outside the traditional university/privately supported and endorsed archaeological channels to do this work?

No. He's not been forced out of the establishment. He wanted to do archaeology but didn't want to spend the time learning culture and techniques and going on digs because he's rich. He feels that anyone can do archaeology by showing up with backhoes and shovels and a permit or two.

So a=no, b=yes, c=no (you should see some of the brawls over the ancient humans in America!), d=no. You also forgot e) he's damaging the whole area and f) he's already lost two skeletons and other materila and g) he or someone on his team has hoaxed at least one inscription and h) it's obvious even to the non-experts that he's not digging but carving and i) he's claiming all sorts of absurd things as "artifacts" (the "ancient sculpture of a cow" was one of the most laughable) to bolster his claim.

Originally posted by Byrd

Originally posted by newtron25
I hope your mind will be equally open to entertaining the possibility that while the man did not find a pyramid, there is a possibility that he has inadvertently found a very large, and very significant archaeological dig in its own right.

In fact, he didn't.

He was digging on a site with a number of known archaeological areas of interest, including a medieval graveyard and a very old Roman fortress. He was "digging" (I've been on digs, thank you) with a backhoe and bulldozer.

Nobody was sifting the dirt from the site (did you notice that they never found old buttons, etc?)

And if this is the case, and if the current researcher is not fit for the job, let's get somebody else in there.

If they can get him out of there. That's the problem.

He's currently been denied permits to continue because (as the Ministry concluded) what's being done there is not archaeology and he's damaging the material that is known to be there. He and his supporters are shrieking (and leveling charges of being "fascist tools" at the Ministry of Culture):
www.javno.com...

Yes, this is most likely a multi-layer site with care needed to be taken to preserve what exists at each level and an organization in the cataloging process that will separate different times and cultures.

...much of which he's already damaged, to the dismay of archaeologists worldwide. And your dig techniques are actually slower than his "bulldoze it and trim it" tactics. What slowed him down was officials starting to be suspicious of his methods.

Byrd,

You appear to be qualified since I have never been on a dig and you have.

What recommendations do you have for this site?

If this was already a known medieval site, then are you telling me it has already been surveyed and determined to be of no value? Is that your opinion or someone else's, Byrd?

If it is someone else's, please give me a link where I can find something on it. I'll do my own "digging" in the meantime on my end. I have to resolve this. Why in the name of all that is stupid I've been letting this story get to me like this...I'll never know.

This has become a quest for cleansing on my part. Not so much the "bitter" taste of finding out its not a pyramid...just that I have not been given anything but links to show how crazy the man is. It helps to know more of the scientific basis behind the site before actually dropping the issue in my mind, I guess.

At this point, I'm really disgusted by the whole thing. Such a waste.

Thanks for offering your expertise, Byrd.

If this was already a known medieval site, then are you telling me it has already been surveyed and determined to be of no value? Is that your opinion or someone else's, Byrd?

it was a royal town
it had been properly excavated by archaeologists and was a UNESCO world heritage site and national monument
en.wikipedia.org...

Visoki was built on Visočica hill, at a height of 766 meters, and 300 meters above the valley where the modern town of Visoko is located. By the time of the Turkish conquest of Bosnia, the old town was probably destroyed and never reconsturcted. Few remnants of old Visoki remain, most being preserved in the town's museum. In situ evidence include the remains of foundations of the towers, walls and gates of Visoki. A model has been reconstructed according to plans of Đoko Mazalić made in 1953, and the old royal town of Visoki is a national monument of Bosnia and Herzegovina

Originally posted by Marduk

If this was already a known medieval site, then are you telling me it has already been surveyed and determined to be of no value? Is that your opinion or someone else's, Byrd?

it was a royal town
it had been properly excavated by archaeologists and was a UNESCO world heritage site and national monument
en.wikipedia.org...

Visoki was built on Visočica hill, at a height of 766 meters, and 300 meters above the valley where the modern town of Visoko is located. By the time of the Turkish conquest of Bosnia, the old town was probably destroyed and never reconsturcted. Few remnants of old Visoki remain, most being preserved in the town's museum. In situ evidence include the remains of foundations of the towers, walls and gates of Visoki. A model has been reconstructed according to plans of Đoko Mazalić made in 1953, and the old royal town of Visoki is a national monument of Bosnia and Herzegovina

Thank you, Marduk. After this post, I will only search for the thread occasionally. I am out of here. IMO, this is a colossal mess and in the immortal words of Ricky Ricardo, "Osmie, you gots some splainin' to do!"

Sorry to be a bother.

Ah thank you, Bryd you said almost exactly the same thing I would have. I would add however that most countries demand that well known Institutes or Universities be involved in digs to ensure that a report will be issued*. I can almost quarrentee tha Osmie will not issue an academically correct or useful report of his pillaging.

Oh Newton, an exit with dignity, well done.

*One of the big scandals in Archaeology is the delay in the publishing of results from digs.

Hey should we pick on Osmie's personal cleanliness now! LOL

Originally posted by newtron25You appear to be qualified since I have never been on a dig and you have.

What recommendations do you have for this site?

Site? There's probably two dozen sites on that one hill. Certainly a first step would be to identify them all.

If this was already a known medieval site, then are you telling me it has already been surveyed and determined to be of no value? Is that your opinion or someone else's, Byrd?

It's the realities of archaeology. There are literally millions of sites and not enough workers. Furthermore, archaeology isn't something you come in and do for 10 days and leave. The San Saba dig (that I worked on) is a famous archaeological site here in Texas... known for hundreds of years, and it gets worked on when you can get a team together with the proper permits. If we could put every Texan to work as archaeologists... we'd starve to death but we'd get all the rock art recorded, sites identified that are on ranch properties and so forth, and move some dirt.

So, yes, they have a list of known sites... the 90 or so areas where they won't let Osmanagic dig. Are there other sites there? Undoubtedly. The area's been inhabited for a very long time, so you get farmsteads, campgrounds of neolithic people, Roman fortresses, medieval churchyards, WWII material... milennia of history is strewn all over the hilltop. Some of it is not of interest right now (things from the 1950's) and some of it is of only moderate interest.

Bosnia is a very poor country. While the government was handing money to Osmanagic, the museums in the area were literally falling apart (sections of roofs developing holes, etc, etc.) The country is very poor and has few resources to conduct digs (even if there's volunteers, they need a place to stay, food, and so forth.) Osmanagic brought a lot of tourist dollars to the area and that's why they love him.

This has become a quest for cleansing on my part. Not so much the "bitter" taste of finding out its not a pyramid...just that I have not been given anything but links to show how crazy the man is. It helps to know more of the scientific basis behind the site before actually dropping the issue in my mind, I guess.

At this point, I'm really disgusted by the whole thing. Such a waste.

Thanks for offering your expertise, Byrd.

It's been discussed by knowledgeable people in many places. The Hall of Maat has been a good source for the fresh news (www.hallofmaat.com...) and their board (which has Real Egyptologists posting) has been a good site for discussion.

Here's an index to their posts on this subject. I can probably help with other questions (to some extent)
www.hallofmaat.com...,406068,406068

I'll also add that even when a site has a dig, the cataloging and interpreting of material takes a lot of time because there are fewer preparators and catalogers than there are "shovelbums."

The museum that I do volunteer work for has about 15 tons (literally) of jacketed fossil material in storage. We have only a small space for volunteers to work, and a small force of volunteers like myself. The job is labor intensive (I will be on this one fossil (a neck bone) for the next 3 years (it's a titanosaur -- Alamosaurus))... so processing the stuff even after you get it is another issue.

Check with some of your local societies... I imagine there's some chances to go on digs in your area. It's a lot of fun (but so's the cataloging and preparator work!)

Guys, I 've been following this story too. Look at this:

"The Zenica-Doboj Cantonal Academic District received today the letter from BiH�s Ministry of Culture and Sport signed by Minister Gavrilo Grahovac and the Executive Director of the Federal Bureau for the Protection of National Monuments Mrs. Lidija Micic.


Contrary to the first letter and previous statements, now they are declaring that they are not in charge to express their opinion about the archaeological research in non-protected areas at the Bosnian pyramid of the Sun, Moon and Gornja Vratnica, justifying themselves as being misunderstood, that in the first letter they were referring only to the Protected areas, especially to the zone where the medieval town of Visoko is situated. In his first letter Minister Gavrilo Grahovac insisted from Ze-Do Cantonal District not to issue any further permits, nor to release funds which would allow the excavation work in the Valley of the Pyramids. Now he declares and �suggests� that only the Cantonal Ministry Of Culture is authorized to decision-making about the issue of permissions etc.

On Wednesday, June 27th, 2007 will be held the meeting between the Board of Ze-Do Canton District and the Federal Government. Among other agendas, the final decision about the future of the research project inside the Bosnian valley of pyramids, as result of the large scale public protest of the past days."

Bosnian-Pyramid.com

What do you think of this?

Large Scale Public Protests? The Bosnian Government is now reversing itself? What's going on?

you put your left leg in
your left leg out
you do the hokey cokey and you turn about

Originally posted by Marduk
you put your left leg in
your left leg out
you do the hokey cokey and you turn about

Come again? Are you making your post from a children's birthday party? Are you the guy who wears the big purple dinosaur suit for a living?

Osmaganic is the only clown involved in this
well apart from anyone else taking it seriously

are you talking about Barney
what do you mean man in a suit
Barneys real I tell ya
look here he is with a real person to prove it

man in a suit indeed
I've heard some silly claims in my time but that takles the biscuit

Originally posted by Marduk
Osmaganic is the only clown involved in this
well apart from anyone else taking it seriously

are you talking about Barney
what do you mean man in a suit
Barneys real I tell ya
look here he is with a real person to prove it

man in a suit indeed
I've heard some silly claims in my time but that takles the biscuit

Wow, wrong thread. I must be at the kids table.

hmmm
are you usually at the Kids table then ?

Originally posted by Marduk
hmmm
are you usually at the Kids table then ?

1 liner, this should be banned!

Regardless of his/her colour and citizenship.
RULES is RULES! Do you dare to keep the rules, or do you KNOW HOW TO KEEP THE RULES?

Originally posted by Dr. No

Originally posted by Marduk
hmmm
are you usually at the Kids table then ?

1 liner, this should be banned!

Regardless of his/her colour and citizenship.
RULES is RULES! Do you dare to keep the rules, or do you KNOW HOW TO KEEP THE RULES?

There are a lot of rules breakers around here.

Tsk, tsk, tsk. It's a shame too. They seemed like such nice boys.

And for the record, I set up the kids table, I serve the kids there...I do NOT eat at the kids table. Wipe your mouth, you have cranberry sauce all over your self.

Originally posted by Byrd
He feels that anyone can do archaeology by showing up with backhoes and shovels and a permit or two.

Wasn't a lot of great archeology done like that before the 20th century? You shouldn't discount him just because he is an amateur working outside the mainstream framework. A lot of ground-breaking work has been done by independent 'amateurs'. We need amateurs to think outside the box. Experience has shown that 'experts' often interpret new evidence depending on how it fits within theories they have spent careers developing (see the 'Pluto Underground' and the controversies surrounding Red Shift, oh, and the Ptolemaic system).

Wasn't a lot of great archeology done like that before the 20th century? You shouldn't discount him just because he is an amateur working outside the mainstream framework. A lot of ground-breaking work has been done by independent 'amateurs'. We need amateurs to think outside the box. Experience has shown that 'experts' often interpret new evidence depending on how it fits within theories they have spent careers developing (see the 'Pluto Underground' and the controversies surrounding Red Shift, oh, and the Ptolemaic system).

Yes it was and in general it was bad and destructive archaeology. Well trained amateurs who know what they are doing are fine, people forcing an agenda that is cannot be supported is another.

You need amateurs who can think and process evidence and not make up stuff to support their own 'box'. What you accuse the experts of is exactly what he is doing, forcing what little evidence, or just making it up to fit his personal beliefs.

All in all an embarrassing disaster

more people oppose, more I know that this pyramid is for real

reply to post by zhuzha


That is a strange way of having an opinion...

Is you favourite club the one most people hate?

Do the following formula

Take the number of years "digging' has been taking place.

Divide it by the number of peer reviewed papers that have emerged from this 'research'.

Let me know the per year production of actual knowledge.....