Immigration is a horrible danger

....because its created a LOT of trolls hitting the board with regurgiposts about evvviiiiiil brown people.


So, going forward

This is the Street Demonstrations thread:
www.abovetopsecret.com...

This is the 'what to do about it" thread:
politics.abovetopsecret.com...

This is the "Aztlan Conspiracy" thread
politics.abovetopsecret.com...

This is the "REX84 for Mexicans" thread:
www.abovetopsecret.com...

The out and out Rant about illegal immigration thread
www.belowtopsecret.com...

That is all.

[edit on 21-4-2006 by Nygdan]

Nygdan.

You've been here alot longer than I have. But its my observation that the more heated the topic, the more likely it is that the "Trolls" will come out to play, thriving as they do on heated rhetoric, and testosteron driven claims.

Regurgiposts. I like that. May I use it in the future? I promise not to break it .

I only wish i had coined the word regurgipost!

Immigration is good for the economy. Cheap labour has always been good for the economy, and cheap and well qualified labour is even better (especially when some third world country has had to do the educating bit).
As far as racism goes well: According to racial theory intelligence and other desirable-useful characteristics are passed at least partly by ancestral heritage.

Now who's telling me that someone who has risked their life, and brought upon themselves a very uncertain future just to fur fill a "dream" hasn’t got some of those desirable characteristics?

So of course immigration is good for the economy (and even if it weren’t like when there's a full blown recession and therefore a surplus of cheap educated labour) surely it would still be good for the racist’s gene pool theory?
America is of course built on immigration. Like the immigrations of today there was a varying amount of choice behind why people choose to migrate. But overall it would seem to be a good thing (even if I am naively comparing the wealth of America and Latin America).

If "blacks" or any other racial group are on average less able than another we should still remember that those coming through our borders are more likely to amongst the best of whatever their population has to offer.

A Terrible Thing...

But if immigration is to continue people must be integrated. Now can tolerate multiculturalism for a very while indeed. But eventually (probably at a time most inconvenient like one of poverty) those cultural differences will emerge.
The politically correct would do well to remember that the far right isn't a white’s only phenomenon. In Islam the far right tends to take the form of the suicide bomber, in Black America it can be the "let's blame all our problems on the whites brigade". Then you have religion and in times past even two types of Christianity have burnt each other at the stake when the rhetoric on ether side has been hot-right wing enough.

France of all places is experiencing the problems of having too many ethnic minorities to closely united in their communities being too heavily influenced by extremists or immoral people.
This is the fate of America. And it’s happened to Iraq. Want to know why they are so many different people fighting each other? Well its not just the West's imperial legacy of shifting borders. You see once upon a time there was this great civilisation under the name of Babylon. This was in Iraq. They too realised that letting useful people in from all around the known world was a good thing to. But when things get tough you have them fighting each other often through the prime political conditions poverty tends to create.

America can and will fragment if it cannot do more to unite under the banner of one culture. And no I don't think all different cultures are a bad thing just that too much of them is.
America is already beginning to fragment. If the major political parties are politically held hostage by the votes of immigrants in swing seat areas then the foreigners have ether claimed or robbed the older generation of immigrants what would have been there's to influence through the ballot box, and there's alone.
Does that entail of the ingredients of a stable society? I think it entails the ingredients of one with reason to be at war with itself. And before actual warfare there may be hundreds of other forms that will take place (mostly coined under the term discrimination though).

All that useful cheap labour, and free education has a price. That price may not only be felt in the countries that loose out on these useful people. In the longer term it can be the destabilisation of society caused by the displacement, unification and eventual confrontation of those who came in as immigration. Multiculturalism is only a mental concept. People are quite capable of abandoning an idea. So even if immigrants are integrated could that integration be one day mostly reversed by those within them willing to lead by believing-hijacking differences? If I'm right that to is part of what’s going on in France and other places with racial-social unrest.

Therefore isolationism is a just policy. I prefer to think the solution lies between isolationism and immigration (i.e. integration) but that’s just my opinion. After all the Western world is still filling up with migrants who have become quite united and remained quite different. Hardly integrated? Not a problem? Or what do we do about it?

Immigration is a good thing. There is nothing wrong with immigration. My own parents were immigrants.
What is wrong is Illegal immigration.

There are laws that are in place for a reason. In the case of the United States, the U.S. had an "open door" policy on immigration for many years. That is, in the earliest years of American history, all that was necessary to become a citizen was to, well, arrive to the shores of the United States.

As the years went by, as the government grew and levels of bureaucracy increased, so did the regulations. There were, in the earliest years waves of immigrants to the United States from England, Ireland, Italy and Eastern Europe. Really, from all over the world. These people took and worked the worst jobs. They knew that they had it better than they had in the countries from which they came. In coming to the United States, they were seeking a new life and they fully committed themselves in becoming Americans. Returning "home" was no option.

These people worked hard, they worked the worst jobs while facing the terrible working conditions and they faced discrimination and racism but they were determined to make a life for themselves in the United States. In their effort to become "real Americans", they learned English, they learned the history of their adopted land and they, for the most part, invested their lives, their energy and their dreams in THIS country.

However, as the years went by, more and more people immigrated to the United States. In fact, the U.S. became "the" destination of choice for many. And they came in numbers that, quite frankly, regulations had to be imposed. Why impose immigration restrictions? That's a simple question to answer...even for a country as large as the United States, there are limits to the numbers of people that can be assimulated without straining the employment situation, the educational system and the infrastructure. This is why, as the years went on, quotas were imposed. Certain requirements for citizenship were instituted (health, criminal record checks, education and skills), even then, an immigration lottery was instituted to allow "random" access to immigration.

For the most part, this system has served the United States very well. Millions upon millions of immigrants from all over the world came to America seeking a dream, often hoping to escape an existance that could only be compared to a nightmare in their country of origin. These people learned English, learned American History and they worked hard in an effort to become "real Americans".

Somehow, this American Dream became distorted. People from Mexico had been among the most ardent and hardest working among the immigrant population until, in recent years, a new form of immigrant developed....the economic refugee...the illegal immigrant.


The illegal immigrant has no desire to actually become citizens. They illegally enter the country for many of the same reasons as legal immigrants do but they chose not to follow the rules. They, for the most part do not seek to become legal citizens of the U.S. Instead, they seek all of the rights of citizenship without actually becoming citizens, it would seem.

But who could really blame these people for wanting to leave their particular countries.....Mexico and South America. These are countries with repressive regimes that promise little or no opportunity. By coming to the U.S. they can earn in a few months what would have taken them years to acquire. Nevertheless, they are not following the rules of the nation in which they seek to work. I find it odd that they are so organized and so determined to obtain rights....by force, if necessary when they could very well have used that same organization, that same force, to demand rights in their country of origin. They could have used their "new found" political clout in Mexico, Honduras, El Salvador, etc to make the government responsive to their needs. They could have made their own countries, their own governments' better. Instead they seek to tear down the dream of others. A dream that they don't share.....to live and work in a country of law.

Hiding behind a shield of racism, they flaunt the laws of the U.S. and if anyone opposes them, they are racists. If they are denied free access to education....they are racists. If they are refused drivers licenses or jobs or even welfare, they are racists. And the politicians shrink from being branded as racists instead of confronting these illegals for what they are....illegal. Out of fear of being branded racists, the government has, for too long, turned a blind eye to the problem...instead, they have accepted the benefits of cheap labor, a workforce willing to work the most menial of jobs and to work in the most intolerable of conditions (at least by American Standards). But being called a racist or not, it does not change the fact that these people are ILLEGAL immigrants.

If these people are granted a general amnesty, it will only encourage the illegals to continue to pour into the country unabated with the hope of another "general amnesty" in the future. Frankly, it must be stopped. The illegals must be treated as such -- illegal. Furthermore, those who hire illegals are guilty of breaking the law themselves. By hiring people who do not contribute to the social security system, by not providing the proper work environment or legal working hours and wages, the employers of illegals must also face punishment.

But the problem won't go away simply by arresting everyone and it certainly won't be stopped by a wall. What will work is to force nations such as Mexico, Central and South American countries to be responsive to the needs of their people. If the people of those countries cannot force their own governments to respond to the needs of their people then the U.S. through sanctions and economic pressure must.

All the talk of a wall has been in reference to the Southern border of the U.S. Most of the illegal immigrants enter the U.S. through this area. Why isn't there a wall between the U.S. and Canada? Could it be because Canada is a country of laws? Could it be that Canada is country that is responsive to the will of it's people. Even though the economy of Canada has often paled to that of the U.S., Canadians have remained in their own country because they were committed to making their own country better. And they have done so through legal means, through legislative means and they have done so peacefully.

May 1st is not a day of Immigrant protest...it is a day of ILLEGAL protest. These people are not citizens of the U.S. They have no voice in the U.S. nor do they have the rights of an American to do so. Let them protest in their own county...let them return to Mexico, Honduras, El Salvador, etc. to work, protest and demand to make their own countries a place where they can live and work with justice & equality.

[edit on 4/30/2006 by benevolent tyrant]

Benevolent Tyrant. One phrase for you: You are correct.

No nation as dependent, past and future, as ours is, on immigration, can dare to turn its back on immigration. It can and must however, curtail any great amount of illegal immigration. That means taking the economic hit that stopping illegal hiring would cause. I venture to guess, however, that the hit would not be as catastrophic as the illegal immigrants supporters would have us believe. The money paid to legal aliens, and citizens of this country would be staying in this country.

Does repeating the words I have typed elsewhere, qualify as a regurgipost?

Ok lets not create yet ANOTHER thread about immigration where someone states that the only reason we want to stop illegal immigration is because of the eeeevil brown people. That is so very insulting to me and everyone else and is a very narrow minded approach to this problem.

I think people want to stop it because of the impact on their communities, the conversion of their cultures to spanish, the total disregard for American law, the unwillingness of them to adapt to American customs, etc, etc. Personally i have yet to read a single post where someone stated they hate eeeevil brown people and want them out just because they are brown. They might be out there and if so then they are trolls. I honestly get so frustrated with the whole "you must be racist or a troll if you are against illegal immigration" line. Thats a sad, silly response to a much larger problem. *sigh*