Germany to open holocaust files

Originally posted by decidedlyundecided
Aelita, do you notice that as you become more and more discredited your posts become smaller and smaller?

I don't feel like making a simple matter into something complex. I also don't see how I can be discredited by you or anybody else, as I have not made a single false statement here. What is there to discredit? You in fact put words in my mouth, as if I was trying to ideliaze the Russian soldier and all that. If you cared to read my posts, it would be obvious that I did not.

That's what you call grasping at straws.

ROTFL

Again, I didn't make many statements except for pointing out the patent flashood of Shadowflux' post. It is you and he who are piling up lots of various links and insinuations, except of course the proof that you so obviously failed to produce. Who's grasping straw now?

oh yes, all of the external quotes from all of the outside sources cited are lies, Shadowflux making it all up.

Did I say that? Again, you are putting words in my mouth. He's not making up the disgust of Eisenhower at what the Nazi animals did to prisoners of war. I concur: yes, the Nazi animals were brutal and disgusting inividuals.

Did the Russians rape? Again, I concur. They did. It's common knowledge.

By saying that I dispute established facts, you are lying yourself.

Your unrelenting furvor to prove that no Russian soldiers ever killed a jew for the sake of being a jew is officially delusional. It happened, it's been proven, it's done.

Once again, you are lying about the content of my posts here, which by the way anyone can read (inlcuding you, if you care). I didn't say that no Jew was ever killed or raped by a Russian. I'm sure there were such cases. However, a statement that says that Russians systematically round up Jewish prisoners, camp after a camp, and "marched them to the woods" to be executed en masse is simply false. Your silence as far as the proof is concerned is deafening.

ShadowFlux's last post was indeed a "slam dunk"

I hope Pyros does not mind if I quote his excellent post earlier in this thread:

The simple fact of the matter is that the Germans did not leave enough Jewish prisoners alive for the Russians to make that great an impact on the overall number of dead. While the communists may have made their "contributions" in some small way, the vast majority of the heinous evil conducted against European Jewry is on the hands of the Nazis. The blood of all the Europeans and Russians killed can equally be shared, however.

The idea that the number of Jewish murders, and the associated guilt, could somehow be reduced, or redistributed away from the Nazis smacks of anti-semitic holocaust revisionism, which is a vile and unfortunate product of our open society of free speech.

You've been dunk'ed.

Aelita, I’m afraid you continue to miss the point, on not only mine but all posts in this thread. Allow me to use the very same quote you used from Pyros:

The simple fact of the matter is that the Germans did not leave enough Jewish prisoners alive for the Russians to make that great an impact on the overall number of dead. While the communists may have made their "contributions" in some small way, the vast majority of the heinous evil conducted against European Jewry is on the hands of the Nazis. The blood of all the Europeans and Russians killed can equally be shared, however.

This further hurts your arguments
Perhaps you’re too used to reading between the lines and inserting your own meanings but you look again you will notice Pyros neither validates your claim nor negates mine. In my original statement I never mentioned any sort of number. All I said was that Soviets killed Jewish prisoners.

I shall break it down to make my point clear:

“to make that great an impact on the overall number of dead.”

This sentence hardly says what you take it to mean. It means the number of Jews killed by Soviets is lower than the number of those killed by Nazis.

While the communists may have made their "contributions" in some small way”

This further hurts your arguments

“the vast majority of the heinous evil conducted against European Jewry is on the hands of the Nazis.”

Granted, I never said different the majority of the blame does rest on the Nazis.

’The idea that the number of Jewish murders, and the associated guilt, could somehow be reduced, or redistributed away from the Nazis smacks of anti-semitic holocaust revisionism, which is a vile and unfortunate product of our open society of free speech.

This, however, is an opinion, not a fact, and opinions are of no use. I also fail to see how an open discussion of the Jewish holocaust and the raising of questions in regards to it is “vile and unfortunate”. I find there to be nothing vile or unfortunate about our right to free speech regardless of what anyone wishes to say.

I am growing tired of this Aelita, I know little of the Russian Judicial system but in America we are innocent until proven guilty. That statement means that the burden of proof rests with the prosecution and not the defense. Since you are the one calling me a slanderous liar, and you yourself admitted to being on the attack, you are the prosecution and the burden of proof rests with you. You have managed to ignore every request for information put towards you and continue to do the same things you accuse DecidedlyUndecided of doing. If you would care to provide evidence to help support your case then please do so now. If, as seems to be the case, you have none, then I suggest we end this. I have played your game for long enough, I have cited resource after resource and you have sat there and denied the evidence put before you.

It is now up to you to prove, beyond a reasonable doubt, that I am in fact a liar, a “holocaust denier”, or a “historical revisionist”. Perhaps you know little of American laws but calling someone a liar without proof to back it up is known as Slander.

oh yes, all of the external quotes from all of the outside sources cited are lies, Shadowflux making it all up.

Did I say that? Again, you are putting words in my mouth.

i think you have, and i quote:

you have not presented a shred of evidence to support your claim of Russian troops killing Jewish prisoners en masse. And guess what, you will not be able to do that because this is complete insinuation and a lie. And you could go on forever how barbaric the Russian troops were. The facto you stated took place in fact did not. This is definition of a lie.

I too can tak what i want from Pyros Post and have it illustrate what i want it to

Originally posted by Pyros




As far as the Jews are concerned, the Russians knew in advance about the existance of the concentration camps, and were not either moved or impressed. Their feelings for the Jews were, at best, contemptuous indifference. When the concentration camps were "liberated" by the Russians they did not simply pick up where the previous owners left off. They did, however, conduct mass killings of Russians who were found inside these camps. Some were ex-Red Army soldiers who has switched sides and were left behind by the Germans, some were simply Russian PoWs. In either event, the communists viewed them as enemies and they were liquidated. The Jews were viewed as a class enemy . . . The blood of all the Europeans and Russians killed can equally be shared...

DecidedlyUndecided’s last post caused me to go back and look through the older posts in this thread and I’ve realized something. This entire argument stems from a simple miscommunication between myself and Aelita. In light of this realization I will agree to make the following concession:

It my original post I stated

…when the Russians came to "liberate" the camps they marched the Jews into the woods and murdered them all

That is also the only portion Aelita seems to really have a problem with. I will agree to change my original statement to read:

“…when the Russians came to “liberate” the camps they marched the prisoners, Jews included, into the woods and murdered them all.”

This new statement is corroborated by the mountains of links I have provided and, perhaps surprisingly to you Aelita, by Pyros post wherein he stated:

They did, however, conduct mass killings of Russians who were found inside these camps. Some were ex-Red Army soldiers who has switched sides and were left behind by the Germans, some were simply Russian PoWs. In either event, the communists viewed them as enemies and they were liquidated.

Hopefully my rewording of my original statement will help Aelita better understand how the evidence I’ve shown supports my statement.

Originally posted by Shadowflux
I am growing tired of this Aelita, I know little of the Russian Judicial system but in America we are innocent until proven guilty.

Exactly! Therefore you violated it by announcing the alleged crime (obviously without any proof) and assigning the guilt.

Since you are the one calling me a slanderous liar, and you yourself admitted to being on the attack, you are the prosecution and the burden of proof rests with you.

Yes! The burden is not that heavy, though, because you repeatedly failed to provide any proof for your slanderous statements. The various factoids about the Katyn massacre and the brutality of the Russians that you tried to pass as a proof simply ain't such, because you described a specific action, against a specific group of people, taking place on a considerable scale.

You have managed to ignore every request for information put towards you and continue to do the same things you accuse DecidedlyUndecided of doing.

What information? You asked me how I know that you lied? Well, here's the answer one more time - you didn't present evidence substantiating your claim. Saying that Stalin was evil (which he was) is not an evidence.

I have played your game for long enough, I have cited resource after resource and you have sat there and denied the evidence put before you.

Look, not a single line in the links you provided is evidence. Please find a document that describes, from witness accounts or records, how the Russians systematically were wiping out Jews in the labour camps as they were advancing in Germany. If you don't have such document, then please acknowledge that this was a speculation on your part, based on you awe before the brutality of Russians, which you acquired through extensive reading of historical account. Simple as that.

Perhaps you know little of American laws but calling someone a liar without proof to back it up is known as Slander.

I know more about American laws than you imagine, for many reasons including one that I'm married to a lawyer. You once tried to impress me with your extensive knowledge of Russia and that didn't quite work, so by now you should know better.

And, my proof is that there is no evidence for the outrageous claim you made.

And by the way, your correction does not go far enough.

The reality is that many Russians were executed by the Russians, based on suspicion of treason and collaboration with Germans, and on the stupid edict by Stalin that anyone who surrendered was automatically a traitor (although many were simply wounded when they were captured). Many people went to Stalin's labor camps after the war. But not all were executed. I'm sure if you do more reading, you'll discover this.


[edit on 21-4-2006 by Aelita]

Yes! The burden is not that heavy, though, because you repeatedly failed to provide any proof for your slanderous statements. The various factoids about the Katyn massacre and the brutality of the Russians that you tried to pass as a proof simply ain't such, because you described a specific action, against a specific group of people, taking place on a considerable scale.

Perhaps you should read the quoted statement once more, in it I state that as the one declaring me a liar it is your job to provide proof that I am one. You have failed to do so.

Please find a document that describes, from witness accounts or records, how the Russians systematically were wiping out Jews in the labour camps as they were advancing in Germany.

I have given you evidence of the Russians murdering prisoners, the persecution of the Jews on Stalin’s personal order, evidence of the Soviets covering up massacres, massive numbers of Soviet victims, massive numbers of Soviet Gulags, the systematic nature of Soviet murder techniques, evidence of multiple genocides and holocausts perpetrated by the Soviets and still you sit there and claim it is impossible that of the 4-9 million Jewish deaths attributed to the Nazis that even a few thousand were actually at the hands of the Soviets.

And, my proof is that there is no evidence for the outrageous claim you made.

That is a logical fallacy, absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. In addition you are the only one who seems to feel that there is an absence of evidence.

Again I ask you, show me evidence that proves me wrong. Even a letter, a poster, anything talking about the Soviet desire to rescue the Jewish prisoners. Anything that shows where they went, documents, pictures, news articles, absolutely anything. I will not accept your silence on this challenge much longer.

I have proven beyond a reasonable doubt that I am in fact correct, you may ask your husband, as the defense that is my only burden.