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Germany to open holocaust files

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posted on Apr, 20 2006 @ 11:43 AM
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I'm really rather intrigued as to what types of documents will be released. If they only release the list of incoming prisoners then it will hardly be of much use as it doesn't say anything about what happened to the prisoners. I'm hoping they release all sorts of documents, I'm really hoping they release some of Hitler's medical records and the like. By the end of the war Hitler was less than a figurhead puppet, he was a drug addled maniac becasue of what his doctors were pumping him up with.

By the end of the war many of Hitler's closest aids had lost faith in him and there was a massive plan for the extermination of Hitler and the continuation of the Nazis in the Fourth Reich. In fact there were many failed attempts on Hitler's life, some of which he narrowly escaped by little more than luck.

Also, and this could be bad for the American Government, perhaps they will release some of the German information on Operation Paper-Clip, when we imported all the nazi scientists. Maybe we'll find out what kind of concessions were neccesary to convince them to come over. Also, if we're lucky, it will show travel papers for when high ranking Nazi officials fled to South America.

Although the release of such information may be misused to start a witch hunt to eliminate the few remaining Nazi officers, I've always found it hard to understand why it was acceptable to hunt down 90+ year old veterans and label them all mass murders and make them pay for the crimes of their leaders. Perhaps if you had proof that this specific 90 year old guy killed a specific list of people it would be ok but I hardly doubt you'd ever find that.

It would also be interesting to see how accurate the German intelligence was, how close the German U-Boats actually came to the U.S coast line and what their plans were had they succeeded in many of their greatest defeats. Also, and I know this will never come to light, but I would love to see any documents the Nazis had relating to UFOs as we all know the U.S. government was doing a fair bit of research.

I hope the purpose of this release of information is actually to broaden the scope of our knowledge and not just to appease a few lawyers. If it is the latter I feel the release may be a waste.

And Aelita, give it up, I'm not arguing with you anymore and your one line responses are an insult to those of us who actually put effort into our posts.




posted on Apr, 20 2006 @ 11:55 AM
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Originally posted by Shadowflux
And Aelita, give it up, I'm not arguing with you anymore and your one line responses are an insult to those of us who actually put effort into our posts.


Shadowflux, you promised to not argue already a few times, but as is typical for you, you renege on what you say. That must be in the character.

As to insult, a lot in your posts is an insult to a normal person's intelligence. In a broader scope, the Pyros' post above explains exhaustively how insulting is your effort to whitewash the Nazis by shifting away their responsibility for the Holocaust and by denying that the Jews were targeted.

As far as the "effort put in your posts", the result is nevertheless pretty pathetic and that's what the audience gets to read. I don't care how much you sweat while concocting your insinuations and lies. Nobody will know for sure how many hours you put in the production of this brilliant line of yours, "what their plans were had they succeeded in many of their greatest defeats".

[edit on 20-4-2006 by Aelita]



posted on Apr, 20 2006 @ 12:25 PM
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Aelita, do you really have nothing better to do? Why don't you go play The Spock Market I've found that to be a fun way of wasting time



posted on Apr, 20 2006 @ 12:49 PM
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Originally posted by Shadowflux
Why don't you go play The Spock Market I've found that to be a fun way of wasting time


I commend your decision to retreat to the area in which you are competent, e.g. playing computer games. Of course by advertising this link you violated your own claim of keeping this thread on topic, but this doesn't susprise me anymore.



posted on Apr, 20 2006 @ 01:14 PM
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Jeez, you just don't quit do you? I guess that's what I get for trying to debate with someone who doesn't understand sarcasm. You do realize that you're coming off as rather argumentative and anti-social?



posted on Apr, 20 2006 @ 02:35 PM
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Originally posted by Shadowflux
I guess that's what I get for trying to debate with someone who doesn't understand sarcasm.


If you are telling me that my posts are without sarcasm, I recommend reading them again.


You do realize that you're coming off as rather argumentative and anti-social?


I argued against your frivoulous statements unsupported by available documents. If my dislike of unfounded speculation, combined with a vile attempt to whitewash the Nazis, makes me argumentative, so be it.

As for my being anti-social -- nah... I may be labeled anti-liar and anti-stupid, but anti-social -- I doubt that.



posted on Apr, 20 2006 @ 02:49 PM
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Refresh my memory, at what point was I tyring to defend the nazis? Did I not say that all sides were equally guilty of killing masses of people, whether on the battlefield or in a prison? What I did say was that it's assinine to believe the Nazis were both the only, and the most monsterous of killers. Especialy when Stalin killed three times as many people and that doesn't even include soldiers lost in battle. If it's your opinion that targeting people for their race is worse than randomly killing anyone then your entitled to your opinion but it's hardly more than opinion.



posted on Apr, 20 2006 @ 03:23 PM
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Originally posted by Shadowflux
Refresh my memory, at what point was I tyring to defend the nazis?


OK. Here's what you wrote:



the other problem lies in the fact that the Russians did as much liquidating of the camps as the Germans did. A great many German soldiers up and left the camps with all the residents inside, when the Russians came to "liberate" the camps they marched the Jews into the woods and murdered them all. This was why we were so adamant about liberating the camps ourselves.


According to you, Russians far surpassed the merciful Germans in trying to exterminate the Jews. Again, I repeat that this is a lie. How sweet: Germans left "all the residdents inside". However, the Russian Horde did not hesitate to slaughter the Jewish "residents" because of their hate of Jews. They were so adamant on carrying out the Holocaust when Germans left. Right?

What pile of BS.



posted on Apr, 20 2006 @ 10:28 PM
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Aelita, Unfortunately, you have taken everything about this thread to heart. You are not debating, you are just arguing for the sake of arguing. You seem to have way too much time on your hands, yet sadly you haven’t used any of it to do a single second of research to back up any of your comments. Reading through this thread you have made many, many statements, but have not provided one link or quote to substantiate your position. The only quotes you have provided are those from Shadowflux. Trying to catch him in something that really is of no relevance to the thread whatsoever.


I am German, my grandparents lived through the holocaust, they lived through WW2, and my parents were born in ’45. The horrors of the holocaust and WW2 will be forever woven into the tapestry of our family’s history. My grandmother, on my father’s side, who was born and raised in West Berlin, is still alive today and lives with me. She is 93 years old and remembers every moment. While you sit here and argue for the sole purpose of vanity, My grandmother cries about losing her first husband in the war.

My other grandmother, on my mother’s side, is 88 years old and lived through WW2 as well. Before and during the war she resided in Prussia where she met and married my grandfather. I almost wasn’t born because while my grandmother was pregnant with my mother a Cossack Military Unit had her village under a curfew. As my grandmother went into labor there were no doctors in her town. She was forced to sneak out of her home after dark, alone in the December snow, to seek medical attention. She was stopped by two Cossack officers who harassed and then assaulted her at bayonet point. They laughed while my grandmother pleaded for help. After they had their fill of torturing her they decided to leave her to either freeze to death, bleed out form her wounds or die from unassisted labor in the woods. From my grandmother’s sheer will she managed to pick herself up and get herself to the nearest town and deliver my mother.


Wow Aelita, you’re right, Russian soldiers at that time really were the merciful champions of virtue you describe.


Another first person account of the Russian soldier’s generous nature comes from my father. As a small child my father lived in West Berlin near the border between Soviet and Allied Berlin. As my father played near the border he rode his rented tricycle a little too close to the Soviet side. A Soviet officer, seeing this, ran over and thrust the barrel of his gun into my father’s face, stopping him in his tracks. My grandmother, who had only taken her eyes off him for a second, ran over and placed herself between my father and the gun. She then quickly picked up my father, spun around and ran home as fast as she could, leaving the tricycle behind. My grandmother looked back quickly and saw the Soviet officer kicking the tricycle into the street and damaging it beyond repair. Renting a tricycle only cost my father about the equivalent of a nickel, but the cost of replacing it was about a day’s wages. My grandmother and father didn’t eat the next day.


My father liked to remind me that he’d rather go hungry for a day than not live to see it. My father passed away two and a half years ago.


Aelita, we all have opinions unfortunately some are more valid than others because they can cite their sources and influences. I was lucky enough to be in the presence of those who’ve lived through history. I’ve learned to be a stronger person because of the adversity my family faced.

I’m German, my people have committed atrocities. That does not reflect upon me or my family. I accept who I am and I strive to understand my ancestry; good or bad. Unfortunately it is obvious that you do not.


I suggest the next time you feel the need to go on a one person crusade to save the name of your people you do a little more research. Because honestly, it’s just embarrassing for all of us to see you go down in flames due to your own lack of information.


In Shadowflux’s original post his main point was to stress that there are many people out there who have exploited the suffering of others just like we saw after 911 and after hurricane Katrina, if I understood correctly. He mentioned Russia twice in his entire post. For you to zero in on those two passing comments only further exhibits your inexperience in debate and over all ignorance about this topic.

There are way too many people in the world today who wave their high and mighty banner about a subject they know little about because everyone else is doing it. There are not, however, enough people like Shadowflux who put extensive time and effort into being knowledgeable about a subject. Sadly, imho being subjected to people like you in such an intelligent setting as ATS is an insult to the entire board and is contributing to the demise of the intellectual community as a whole.


Maybe your debate skills are better suited for a community like MySpace.

Shadowflux, I’m giving you two Way Aboves, one for being educated about the subject and citing your work accordingly, and the other for putting up with Aelita for this long.



posted on Apr, 20 2006 @ 11:55 PM
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Originally posted by Aelita


According to you, Russians far surpassed the merciful Germans in trying to exterminate the Jews. Again, I repeat that this is a lie. How sweet: Germans left "all the residdents inside". However, the Russian Horde did not hesitate to slaughter the Jewish "residents" because of their hate of Jews. They were so adamant on carrying out the Holocaust when Germans left. Right?

What pile of BS.




One




On April 4, 1945, American soldiers of the 4th Armored Division of General Patton's US Third Army were moving through the area south of the city of Gotha in search of a secret Nazi communications center when they unexpectedly came across the ghastly scene of the abandoned Ohrdruf prison labor camp.


Two




July 24, 1944 - At Lublin in Poland, Red Army soldiers discovered the abandoned Majdanek extermination camp, the first major camp to be liberated.


Three



On April 28, 1945 the SS abandoned the camp


Four




The inmates were abandoned in Bergen-Belsen by the Germans


It seems history would agree with me that the retreating Germans did in fact abandon the camp and all it’s constituents. As any veteran will tell you, their main objective is not killing the enemy, but getting home again. Once the war was over for them, it seems the German soldiers were more interested in seeing their families and what was left of their homes then in continuing the failed ideals of a dead leader.

P.S. That took 5 minutes on Google, perhaps if you put more effort into your posts things like this wouldn't happen so much



posted on Apr, 21 2006 @ 09:14 AM
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After spending the last few days re veiwing and researching information on the web regarding the Nazi death camps, i have come to the conclusion that probably little in the context of tracing actual persons will be revealed by this release of information.

Such was the complete lack of respect for human life, many people were instantly executed on their arrival at the camps without any evidance of record keeping visable?

Ive cut a deep wound in my own soul with the information and pictures ive reviewed these past few days....and i wasnt even there, ive never seen anything even slightly similar to the hell ive chosen to further educate my self with.

I pity the poor souls who will have old wounds re opened by these documents, i hope just one good thing can come from this.



posted on Apr, 21 2006 @ 09:53 AM
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Originally posted by decidedlyundecided
Wow Aelita, you’re right, Russian soldiers at that time really were the merciful champions of virtue you describe.


I describe then as champions of virtue? What have you been smoking?

I never said they were. I know that many barbaric acts were committed by Russian troops. I didn't say they weren't. I was, and still am, against a specific claim of systematic extermination of Jewish inmates of the German prison camps, by the Russians.



I suggest the next time you feel the need to go on a one person crusade to save the name of your people you do a little more research. Because honestly, it’s just embarrassing for all of us to see you go down in flames due to your own lack of information.


Hey, listen, I'm not on crusade to save the name of any people here, be it American, German, Russian or Jewish. If you feel embarrased about me asking a pointed question about the sources on which the above claim was based (or not), that is your right. I am in fact asking for information. The information is not forthcoming. I still don't see any evidence that the Russians would "march the prison population to the woods and shoot them to death" in the camps they took from Germans.

I understand you still feel for all the Germans that suffered at the hands of merciless Russian soldiers who paid a visit to your Vaterland. That was horrible. It is even more horrible that it apparently caused a short circuit in your logic, whereas an inquiry about a source of information for a quite significant claim is portrayed as a "crusade".


He mentioned Russia twice in his entire post.


He could have said in passing that the Jews were bloodsuckers and deserved what they got. Only once. Do you expect everybody to just let it slide?



There are not, however, enough people like Shadowflux who put extensive time and effort into being knowledgeable about a subject.


Again, I'm begging for a specific peice of knowledge about when, where and in how many prison camps the Russians took every Jew to the woods and machine gunned them to death. I'm really just curious.

In fact, after lecturing me on the usefulness of Google, Shadoflux came up with the following "proof":



10,000 men had lived and slaved at Ohrdruf. Near the end, the SS had marched the prisoners to other camps, known as death marches, or killed them. Ohrdruf was a minor sub-camp of Buchenwald, and on the edge of the camp was a gigantic pit, where the Nazi's had stacked bodies and wood and burned them. Ohrdruf had actually been discovered by accident. After the Americans had taken the town where part of the communications center was located, reconnoitering troops found the main gate to the camp just over the crest of a small hill. Corpses in striped uniforms were found right inside the gate. Some found were alive, others long since dead.


I hope my vision is still OK, because it would appear that it was the SS who did to these prisoners and not Russians. Hello? Hello? Merciful Germans, anyone?

You can choose to ignore basic logic and call me crusader. You can also accuse me of not being up to snuff as the intellectual level goes. And not being able to debate. However, your failure to substantiate a claim speaks for itself.


[edit on 21-4-2006 by Aelita]



posted on Apr, 21 2006 @ 11:55 AM
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Originally posted by Aelita

However, your failure to substantiate a claim speaks for itself.


well isn't that the pot calling the kettle black.

Listen, Aelita, you have carried out this "debate" so long and strayed so far from what the original intention of this thread has been, i really don't even know what you are asking for anymore. do you want



a specific peice of knowledge about when, where and in how many prison camps the Russians took every Jew to the woods and machine gunned them to death. I'm really just curious.


I will indeed look for information that even you will comprehend and Present it here for you. Meanwhile,
i have an interesting book for you to read if this is the case.
it's called

Made in Russia: The Holocaust

Here is a lengthy overview of the book

It purports that much of the "atrocities" commited by the Germans we widely exaggerated by the Russians. In my own opinion, to cast light away from their own unspeakable acts.








War crimes trials are characterized by the assumption that rules of evidence are a technicality designed to enable the guilty to evade punishment. In fact, however, their purpose is to protect tribunals from errors in judgement.

Centuries ago, it was common to prosecute women for performing sexual acts with the Devil. These acts were described in minute detail in thousands of trials, in millions of pages of sworn testimony. It was established, for example, that Satan's ejaculatory fluid is cold.

Thousands of women stood fast in their confessions to the very foot of the stake, proving the truth of the matter stated; others recanted, proving the contumacy of the Tempter.

Thousands of men were burned for signing a Compact with the Prince of Darkness. This was a written contract, binding on both parties, the exact text of which was known to jurists for centuries; yet the original document was never found. Secondary evidence was accepted as to its existence and content.

Satan's existence was proven by his many appearances in the form of a cat or a goat; his failure to fulfil his contractual obligations was seen as a simple breach of faith.

Scientific experiments were performed. Women known to have participated in the Black Mass were found not have left their beds during the night, proving that transportation is spiritual, rather than physical.

Professional witnesses denounced thousands of people; defendants were condemned on the basis of ex parte affidavits signed by unknown persons; hallucinations and dreams were introduced into evidence in sworn statements.

Persons defending the accused could only be motivated by secret sympathy with Satan's conspiracy or Common Plan.

Respected people entered prison defiant, confident that God would prove them innocent; only to emerge a month later, prepared to confess publicly and be burned alive for kissing the anus of a goat.

Similar procedures and rules of evidence were used after the last war to convict Germans of killing millions of Jews in a toxicologically absurd manner, using an insecticide requiring 24 hours to kill moths.


~ Carlos Porter, Author, Made in Russia: The Holocaust

Here for your convenient reading pleasure are Excerpts from his book.


Aelita, as i go in search of the hard evidance you so desperately seek, i will leave you with this information to mull over.




The same Red prosecutors who framed the victims of Stalin's purges at the Moscow show trials, and sent millions of innocents to their deaths in our gallant Soviet ally's Gulag archipelago, are the chief source for the vaunted Nuremberg evidence of the "Holocaust."

~ Carlos Porter MIR: The Holocaust


I implore you to thoroughly read through both links, then remind me what it is you're trying to prove.



posted on Apr, 21 2006 @ 12:40 PM
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Originally posted by decidedlyundecided

Originally posted by Aelita
However, your failure to substantiate a claim speaks for itself.


well isn't that the pot calling the kettle black.


No, my revisionist friend, it's not. You see, I didn't make claims that anybody made this and that to the Jews in the past few months of the war. I was curious about a claim that was made by others. When it was exposed as a convenient fabrication made up by a thinly masked revisioninst, I was of course accused of not being able to conduct a debate.



Listen, Aelita, you have carried out this "debate" so long and strayed so far from what the original intention of this thread has been, i really don't even know what you are asking for anymore.


Puh-leezeee. Your mind can't be in a state THAT foggy.



do you want


a specific peice of knowledge about when, where and in how many prison camps the Russians took every Jew to the woods and machine gunned them to death. I'm really just curious.


I will indeed look for information that even you will comprehend


Oh, so you are implying that you'll have to dig up something really dumbed down, so that even a moron like myself will be able to digest. How's that for a culture of discussion. Thank you anyway.



Meanwhile, i have an interesting book for you to read if this is the case.
it's called

Made in Russia: The Holocaust


Wow. I thought the name implied that Russia was indeed implicated in the Holocaust. What an interesting reading, I thought! When I read the link you kindly provided, I was disappointed as it just turned out that it's simply a revisioninst's handbook. Heck, that's what the link says:



On balance, however, Made in Russia: The Holocaust is a book with something of value for every reader with an interest in Revisionism.


You then go on to say:



It purports that much of the "atrocities" commited by the Germans we widely exaggerated by the Russians. In my own opinion, to cast light away from their own unspeakable acts.


Ahha, so you felt the need to put atrocities in double quotes. Does it hurt you that much, that you are compelled to do so? Are you also planning to double quote "concentration camps", "barbed wire" and "Holocaust"? You are making it very clear where you stand, junior fuehrer.

If you read the links that Our Resident Holocaust Expert Extraordinaire, Dr.Shadowflux, had kindly provided, you'll see some amazing facts of how seasoned American generals became physically sick when they saw that Germans had done to their prisoners. You'll read of piles of bodies, dead or dying, that Germans left in the wake of their retreat. These links have nothing to do with Russia whatsoever. The materials exist in the form that was impossible for Russians to fabricate. It appears to be historical truth. Of course, it pains you as such. You therefore are trying to paint it with the same color as witch hunts of yore:



Centuries ago, it was common to prosecute women for performing sexual acts with the Devil. These acts were described in minute detail in thousands of trials, in millions of pages of sworn testimony. It was established, for example, that Satan's ejaculatory fluid is cold.


You see, General Eisenhower was there as a witness to the slaughter perpetrated by the Germans. Bringing Satan's ejaculation into that is a disgrace and an insult to the perished. As is the rest of your spam cut and pasted from Porter's book.



Aelita, as i go in search of the hard evidance you so desperately seek, i will leave you with this information to mull over.


Nah, you simply state that Stalin was a monster (duh!) and that's all that I have to "mull over".


I implore you to thoroughly read through both links, then remind me what it is you're trying to prove.


Excuse me, but you should really try to concentrate. I am not trying to prove anything. I asked for a proof of a statement that I did find outrageous and untrue. The statement was not based on any proof so far. How difficult is that to understand for an intellectual titan like yourself?

PS. The Porters book is right in that many of the claims by the prosecutors in Nurenmerg were outrageous. However, when he got to the ridicule of the claim that Germans manufactured items out of skin and other materials harvested from slain prisoners, I remembered that I saw a couple of human hide lamp shades in a museum, that supposedly came from one of such workshops (I'm sure it was a very limited production run). There were also soap bars. Can it be a fabrication of Russians? Who knows. Maybe. Maybe not. There was a tatoo on one of those shades. There was also a huge pile of Iron Crosses on display.


[edit on 21-4-2006 by Aelita]



posted on Apr, 21 2006 @ 01:21 PM
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Once again, Aelita, I reiterate, you are so all over the place, I don’t even know where to begin. I would be more than willing to aide in the proving of whatever it is you want to know. But I don’t even thing you yourself know what you are trying to establish at this point.

You keep saying, you just want proof. Proof of what? I give you links, quotes and published works. Shadowflux, XphilesPhan, Nygdan, and Pyros have also lent their research and opinions. Yet you have chosen to forgo all of this and continue down a path of stubborn narrow mindedness.

You’ve turned this thread into a flame war by picking apart every comment made by Shadowflux and myself. You ask for substantial evidence, and when it is given to you, you still protest. You continually say that whatever evidence we post is not good enough, yet you won’t so much as post one link of information furthering your stance.

Think back to Junior High School, remember when you wrote a paper, perhaps a great paper, but you never cited one piece of work other than your own opinions and personal knowledge? That paper always gets an F because in the real world, you need to back up your statements.

Whether you accept it or not, we’ve provided information that explains our side and illustrates our opinions. You have done nothing of the sort. So even if you’re right, and we’re all horribly misguided, as you so ardently proclaim we are, You still get an F for not citing your work, regardless of how right you think you are.





posted on Apr, 21 2006 @ 01:38 PM
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I had been growing rather tired of this debate and the fact that Aelita’s position seems to be built on the shallow foundation of neglecting to provide evidence. However, I was spurred on by DecidedlyUndecided’s inspirational posts and the mere fact that it seems no one is coming to Aelita’s aid. I have a great love for the truth when it comes to history and a strong disgust for those who wish to keep such truth from the world. Fortunately for all of us this is hardly the first time I’ve been faced with ignorant opposition.

I understand that the only effective weapon I have in fighting the ignorant is information but I am growing rather tired of being on the only side expelling ammunition. This seems to be the typical mode of operations for those who wish to hide the truth and distort historical fact. When faced with multiple examples proving them wrong the deniers of historical accuracy will select one example, distort the wording, insert whatever meaning they wish it to have and proceed to base their arguments on that well spun example. The only problem with this method of debate is that it often obfuscates the entire situation to the point that one such as myself ends up repeatedly backing up his statements only to have the opposition take the same approach.

It was when I realized this that I decided to change my strategy. Aelita seems to assert that declaring the Soviets as more barbaric and prolific murderer is simply an attempt to “white wash” the Nazis and qualifies me as a “Historical Revisionist”. Any rational and logical person will realize this is hardly the case, however, people like this are rarely rational or logical. In this post I wish to say little in my defense and let the historical facts speak for themselves, I wish to let all rational people decide for themselves.

Below is a pair of links, one is a list of all the Nazi Concentration Camps, the other is a list of all known Soviet Gulags. I would like to point out that the Nazi Camps number 47 and the Soviet Gulags number over 443. The deaths attributed to the Nazi extermination number between 4-12 million, however the number of deaths attributed to systematic genocides perpetrated by the Soviets number over 50 million (that number does not include the deaths attributed to governments adopting the Soviet form of Communism).

List of Nazi Camps

List of Soviet Camps

Alas, I think I know Aelita’s debate style well enough now to predict her reaction to the links. I’m expecting her to say something to the effect that those links are either irrelevant, that I am attempting to change the subject, or that according to her I have yet to substantiate my comments. Thus is why I have included these next links, I believe they go quite well with DecidedlyUndecided’s recent posts and believe together they serve to convince those reading this of Aelita’s true motives.

Aelita, you mentioned your Russian ancestry and your youth in Russia so I am sure that you are well aware of the area known as Katyn Forrest. Given your stance so far I suppose you don’t quite know what went on in Katyn Forrest. For those of us without the benefit of a fine Soviet education I’ll let Wikipedia explain:




The Katyn massacre, also known as the Katyn Forest Massacre and the Katyn Incident (Polish: Katyń), was a mass execution of Polish citizens by the order of Soviet authorities in 1940.[1] Estimates of the number of Polish citizens executed at three mass-murder sites in the spring of 1940 range from some 1,803 [2] through 14,540[3][4],and through 21,857 [1] to 27,700.[5] Most of those killed were reserve officers taken prisoner during the 1939 Polish September Campaign, but the dead also included many civilians who had been arrested for being "intelligence agents and gendarmes, spies and saboteurs, former landowners, factory owners and officials".[6] Since Poland's conscription system required every unexempted university graduate to become a reserve officer,[7] the Soviets were thus able to round up much of the Polish, Jewish, Ukrainian and Belarusian intelligentsias of Polish citizenship.


I can almost hear Aelita asking how this proves my point so let me quote some more:




The 1943 discovery of mass graves at Katyn Forest by Germany, after its armed forces had occupied the site in 1941, precipitated a 1943 rupture of diplomatic relations between the Soviet Union and the Polish government-in-exile in London. The Soviet Union continued to deny responsibility for the massacres until 1990, when it acknowledged that the NKVD had in fact committed the massacres and the subsequent cover-up.[8] The Russian government has admitted Soviet responsibility for the massacres. It does not call them a war crime or an act of genocide, which would have necessitated the prosecution of surviving perpetrators.[3] Some Russians continue to believe the original explanation that was maintained by the Soviet government until 1989, that it had been the Germans who had killed the Poles after invading the Soviet Union in mid-1941.[1]


I hope everyone noticed that last part that stated “Some Russians continue to believe the original explanation that was maintained by the Soviet government until 1989, that it had been the Germans who had killed the Poles after invading the Soviet Union in mid-1941”

As to my assertions of the methodical nature of Soviet murdering techniques Katyn serves me well again, here’s another quote:




The killings were methodical. After the condemned's personal information was checked, he was then handcuffed and led to a cell insulated with a felt-lined door. The sounds of the murderers were also masked by the operation of loud machines (perhaps fans) throughout the night. After being taken into the cell, the victim was immediately shot in the back of the head. His body was then taken out through the opposite door and laid in one of the five or six waiting trucks, whereupon the next condemned was taken inside. The procedure went on every night, except for the May Day holiday.[citation needed] Near Smolensk, the Poles, with their hands tied behind their backs, were led to the graves and shot in the neck.


Katyn Massacre on Wikipedia

Perhaps you noticed that in the last sentence of the first quote it says Jewish citizens were rounded up by the Soviets on Stalin’s order. That really should come as no surprise since, as Wikipeida states:




Even though many of the Old Bolsheviks were ethnically Jewish, they sought to uproot Judaism and Zionism and established the Yevsektsiya to achieve this goal. By the end of the 1940s the Communist leadership of the former USSR had liquidated almost all Jewish organizations, with the exception of a few token synagogues. These synagogues were then placed under police surveillance, both openly and through the use of informants.


Persecution of the Jews on WIkipedia

Interesting to say the least, did you notice the part about the Anti-Zionist committee of the Soviet public? Well here’s a quote Wiki has from and article in the paper Pravda:




On April 1, 1983, the CPSU official newspaper Pravda ran full front page article titled From the Soviet leadership:

"...By its nature, Zionism concentrates ultra-nationalism, chauvinism and racial intolerance, excuse for territorial occupation and annexation, military opportunism, cult of political promiscuousness and irresponsibility, demagogy and ideological diversion, dirty tactics and perfidy... Absurd are attempts of Zionist ideologists to present criticizing them, or condemning the aggressive politics of the Israel's ruling circles, as antisemitic... We call on all Soviet citizens: workers, peasants, representatives of intelligentsia: take active part in exposing Zionism, strongly rebuke its endeavors; social scientists: activate scientific research to criticize reactionary core of that ideology and aggressive character of its political practice; writers, artists, journalists: fuller expose anti-populace and anti-humane diversionary character of propaganda and politics of Zionism..."


Anti-Zionist Committee on WIkipedia

I feel I have adequately defended my position to this point and I believe these examples puncture serious holes into Aelita’s argument. While people like Aelita can only call people names like “Vile Holocaust Denier” and “Historical Revisionist” I can rest easy knowing my opinions and assertions are based on well documented facts. Never once did I attempt to deny the Jewish holocaust or it’s horrors, nor did I ever say anything about a Jewish conspiracy. However, if bringing to light the full truth of the Second World War qualifies me as a “Historical Revisionist” in your eyes than I suppose I shouldn’t try to change your mind. In fact I fail to see how the term “historical revisionism” came to be such a dirty word. History is an ever changing picture, we always learn more about the past than we previously knew. Learning more about WWII was actually the original subject of this thread. If we refused to revise history based on the new facts we learned we would be thrust back into the dark ages. It is people like Aelita who wish to push their version of history on others to help further whatever ideology or goal they may have. I simply wish to enlighten as many people as I can as to what truly happened in one of the most important eras of the history of the planet. Perhaps we should coin a new term and label people like Aelita “Historical Obfuscators”.

Edit for Post Script:
P.S. Aelita, you responded to DecidedlyUndecided by saying:




If you read the links that Our Resident Holocaust Expert Extraordinaire, Dr.Shadowflux, had kindly provided, you'll see some amazing facts of how seasoned American generals became physically sick when they saw that Germans had done to their prisoners.


Yet, in the second post you made to me you said this:



Again, the sources you provide (at least one of the links) suggest that the seasoned killers aka SS officers had stronger stomachs than you imply, otherwise they'd throwing up all the time and wouldn't have been a good enough shape to commit all teh outrages they did commit.


Do you ever get dizzy from spinning the info so much?

P.P.S I'd like to thank DecidedlyUndecided for her help and inspiration.

[edit on 21-4-2006 by Shadowflux]



posted on Apr, 21 2006 @ 01:49 PM
link   

Originally posted by Seekerof
Considering that estimates for the numbers of Jews killed during the Holocaust vary between 4-9+ million, and the number for non-Jews vary between 4-7 million


Damn, I didn't know those figures. Then how come all we mainly hear about was the Jewish Holocaust? You know, the 6 million exterminated? Why is it we hardly ever hear about all the Gentiles that died in it as well? I've been under the impression (maybe cause of the media) that it was all Jewish people. Wow!



posted on Apr, 21 2006 @ 02:02 PM
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This is totally fantastical. You, Shadowflux, presented a list of Soviet Gulag camps, and the materials about the Katyn massacre. Please note that I did not dispute any of these facts or events.

However, as you know full well, that you have not presented a shred of evidence to support your claim of Russian troops killing Jewish prisoners en masse. And guess what, you will not be able to do that because this is complete insinuation and a lie. And you could go on forever how barbaric the Russian troops were. The facto you stated took place in fact did not. This is definition of a lie.

And by the way, at no time was I trying to push my view of history on other people. I simply voiced my concern about you fabricating history.



[edit on 21-4-2006 by Aelita]



posted on Apr, 21 2006 @ 02:19 PM
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Aelita, do you notice that as you become more and more discredited your posts become smaller and smaller?

That's what you call grasping at straws.

oh yes, all of the external quotes from all of the outside sources cited are lies, Shadowflux making it all up. This is all a bad dream, you will wake up and realize that most people thinks you are right and everyone with an opposing point of view is wrong and should be corrected publicly over and over again. Hmmm, sounds a lot like the way a dictator would think. . . something to ponder. Your unrelenting furvor to prove that no Russian soldiers ever killed a jew for the sake of being a jew is officially delusional. It happened, it's been proven, it's done.

ShadowFlux's last post was indeed a "slam dunk"

Get over it

Move on

You're done




posted on Apr, 21 2006 @ 02:25 PM
link   

Originally posted by zerotolerance

Damn, I didn't know those figures. Then how come all we mainly hear about was the Jewish Holocaust? You know, the 6 million exterminated? Why is it we hardly ever hear about all the Gentiles that died in it as well? I've been under the impression (maybe cause of the media) that it was all Jewish people. Wow!


Which is exactly why I continue to try and bring to light the entire truth of the second world war, even if it means facing the opposition of spin doctors such as Aelita. Like i said, if that makes me a "Historical Revisionist" than I proudly proclaim myself as one. I'm glad we were able to teach you somthing.

ZeroTolerance, this link is for you and all others who were led to believe the killing was limited to Jewish prisoners. Here's a small list of the headlines on the page:

Polish citizens - Hitler's First Target

Afro-Europeans:
Mandatory Sterilization
for Black Youth

Gypsies:
Executed
for their race

Jehovah Witnesses
Stood Firm

No Need for
the Disabled

Pink Triangles
for Homosexuals

Forgotten Vicitims of the Holocaust

Aelita, it seems you are still using the tactic of ignoring the evidence, you obviously did not take the time to read all the articles I cited as they are quite lengthy and included a large number of qoutes, that I did not include, that support my argument. If you wish to keep yourself in ignorant darkness and continue to believe that those reading this thread are blind to the facts presented then I suppose that's your business.

If you don't believe that the fact that the Soviets lied about the Katyn massacre is proof beyond the shadow of a doubt that there are a great many things the Soviets lied about then that is also your business.

If you still think that we know everything about the second world war and what exactly went on then I suggest you make some coffee and wake yourself up. For any given point in history there is a great deal we do not know.

I'd also like to point out that if this were a formal and moderated debate that you would have been declared the loser and the debate would have been stopped long ago.

If you are still so adamantly opposed to the truth then perhaps you would care to enlighten all of us, using documented evidence of course, as to where the Jewish survivors liberated by the Soviets went to? Perhaps, since you have so much free time, you could compare the number of Jewish survivors returning to Soviet areas and compare it with the numbers of "liberated" Jewish survivors.



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