Germany to open holocaust files

Germany is to finally allow the world to view thousands of records kept by the Nazi's regarding their concentration/labour camps in ww2.

news.bbc.co.uk...

I still think that stuff like this is off superior importance, perhaps just one small document could shed some extra light on a person long since lost to their families, all though there is sure to be old wounds re opened, i am a strong believer that everything should be disclosed regarding this dark part in mans history, the world needs to be constantly reminded how terrible and horiffic people with power can be when left to their evil devices.

I know I may get slightly slammed but I am no Holocaust denier. However, I think this may not bode well for what has become known as "The Holocaust Industry" (also the title of a very good book written by the child of real holocaust survivors, which you can read online). the fact of the matter is that there are people who will exploit somthing no matter how sacred it may be, even if it's sacred to their own people. Statistics show that there are more "survivors" now then there were at the end of WWII. Do we all remember that huge lawsuit the survivors made against the German governement that forced them to open up their Swiss accounts? Well as it turned out most of the money was not stolen from Jewish families but were forgotten funds of German families. German families who were quite grateful for the discovery.

The problem with letting this information out is that we will have a better list of who was actually a victim of the Holocaust which in turn will make good evidence in any future lawsuits. the other problem lies in the fact that the Russians did as much liquidating of the camps as the Germans did. A great many German soldiers up and left the camps with all the residents inside, when the Russians came to "liberate" the camps they marched the Jews into the woods and murdered them all. This was why we were so adamant about liberating the camps ourselves.

I think if anything this will only serve the German people and the Governemnt. It will also expose the true numbers of the prisoners based on their "crimes". remember, Hitler didn't kill only Jews, pretty much any non-Aryan and a few of the Aryans were targets as well. It might not bode so well if we find out that the Jews were proportionatly not much larger than the other victims.

What we really need is all the Russian files from WWII and after as Stalin killed a good 3 times as many people as Hitler

Originally posted by Shadowflux
when the Russians came to "liberate" the camps they marched the Jews into the woods and murdered them all.

Would you care to provide links or any further information on this subject?

Originally posted by Aelita

Originally posted by Shadowflux
when the Russians came to "liberate" the camps they marched the Jews into the woods and murdered them all.

Would you care to provide links or any further information on this subject?

That happened, the russians killed at least as many jews and people as the nazis, the nazis are just demonized more about it u would be quite shocked to discover how many people in the world died because of communists. However communists are often "excused" for this. Afterall, why not blame the group that lots the war and no longer exists?

More over, the Russians were far and wide more brutal than the more pragmatic Germans. The Russians delighted in raping and mutilating their victims before killing them. Many of the mass graves and liquidated NKDV prisons found by occupying Nazi forces were so horrible it sickened SS officers.

During the week of 22/29 June, 1941, thousands of Ukrainian and Polish political prisoners were murdered in their cells by the Soviet NKVD (KGB). The Soviets' hurried retreat had tragic consequences for all political prisoners in the jails of Western Ukraine. Soon after the German attack on the Soviet Union, the retreating Soviets had no time to care for their prisoners locked up in prisons in the Ukraine, so they were simply killed. In some cities the whole prison was set on fire and the helpless prisoners burned to death. In Lutsk, 2,800 out of the 4000 inmates in the NKVD prison, were murdered. When the German 49th Army Corps occupied the Polish-Ukrainian city of Lvov, (now Limberg) around 2,400 dead bodies were found by German troops in the NKVD prison. Some were killed by hand-grenades thrown into their cells, most were killed by a shot in the neck. In the cellars of the Brygidky Prison on Palczymska Street, 423 bodies were recovered. Hundreds more were piled up in the courtyard. In the military prison at Samarstinov, which had been set on fire, 460 charred bodies were found, many showing signs of brutal torture. In the cellars, bodies were piled up layer upon layer almost to the ceiling. Owing to the stench of the decomposing corpses, the German commander of Lvov ordered all doors to the cellars bricked up after the bodies were covered with lime. On June 26-27, 1941, some 520 Ulrainians were shot at Sambor, and at Zlochev, another 700, including the entire local intelligentsia, were arrested and shot on July 16, 1941. At Kremenets, between 100 and 150 were killed and when the bodies were recovered some bodies were without skin, having been thrown into boiling water.

Note that the victim's religious affiliation is hardly mentioned but it is common knowledge that there were many Polish and Ukranian Jews, communist regimes generally target politcal "threats" as it's less ideological than was National Socialism.

Worse yet, many of the Soviet "heros" were Jewish collaborators, many of home recieved high honors for their actions.

In addition the SS 30th Division was made up of Soviet Troops who switched sides.

We will never know how many people were really killed and in what way as the Russians were hardly as systematic or anal about their records as the Germans were. However, anyone familiar with Russian history will tell you that Jews were never really welcome in Russia, having been blamed for the assination of Tsars, the Bolshevik Revolution and Communism as a whole. Russia's massive Neo-Nazi skinhead population is further evidence that Jews are not welcome in Russia.

There is also the known fact that all Communist regimes are adamntly anti-religion so it stands as logical that a race defined by religion would be a target of such a regime.

It is also logical that we would hear little of the attrocities committed by the soviets during WWII except those perpetrated against WWII era enemies as the Americangovernment is loathe to admit it's collaboration with murderers.

Let us not forget the massive loss of life, infrastructue and finances suffered by the Soviet Union in WWII. After the savagry of fighting in Stalingrad and all over Eastern Europe it would be highly illogical that the Soviets would welcome thousands of starving prisoners when they can blame their deaths on the Germans.

Little Known Attrocities of WWII

Pogroms

Overview of Modern Russian Anti-Semitism

Originally posted by Shadowflux
More over, the Russians were far and wide more brutal than the more pragmatic Germans. The Russians delighted in raping and mutilating their victims before killing them.

The links that you provided cite far more WWII atrocities committed by Germans than those by Russians. Of course the Russians were the victors in this war and therefore the inofrmation is inevitably biased.

But to put your logic to test, you should really talk to some of survivors in Belarus and other areas of fierce fighting. You see, it was not too uncommon for Germans to torch a village with its entire population locked in and barbequed, as a reprisal for guerilla attacks. Were the Russians more brutal in comparison? Me thinks not.

Many of the mass graves and liquidated NKDV prisons found by occupying Nazi forces were so horrible it sickened SS officers.

Again, the sources you provide (at least one of the links) suggest that the seasoned killers aka SS officers had stronger stomachs than you imply, otherwise they'd throwing up all the time and wouldn't have been a good enough shape to commit all teh outrages they did commit.

We will never know how many people were really killed and in what way as the Russians were hardly as systematic or anal about their records as the Germans were.

That's why I object to your statement that when the Russians came to "liberate" the camps they marched the Jews into the woods and murdered them all. It's a pure speculation (according to yourself), a generalization that's completely uncalled for.

However, anyone familiar with Russian history will tell you that Jews were never really welcome in Russia, having been blamed for the assination of Tsars, the Bolshevik Revolution and Communism as a whole.

Wait a second, you were just lecturing about WWII, when the Bolsheviks were in power and Communism was the rule of the land, so it's quite certain that no one could have been blamed for just that. As to your claim that the Jews "were not really welcome in Russia", could you please put in in perspective and list European countries in which is was a habit to welcome them with rose petals and palm branches?

There is also the known fact that all Communist regimes are adamntly anti-religion so it stands as logical that a race defined by religion would be a target of such a regime.

Unbeknownst to you, Russians are a race that is largely defined by Orthodox Christianity. Granted Stalin did a horribly efficient work of murdering a lot of Russians, yet it is preposterous to suggests that the Jews were singled out because of their religion. Heck, the Soviet Union had all sorts of religions from Buddhism to Catholicism to Orthodoxy.

After the savagry of fighting in Stalingrad and all over Eastern Europe it would be highly illogical that the Soviets would welcome thousands of starving prisoners when they can blame their deaths on the Germans.

It would be even more illogical that the Russians nevertheless perpetrated a systematic massacre of the prison population. I've known a few people who were in this war and a few of them acknowledged rapes were committes by the troops. I'm sure there were other acts of depravity, robbery and violence on the Russians part, but your speculation about camp masascres is unfounded and, in fact, vile.

The fact of the matter is that this is completely off topic and not really related to the original post of the thread, I also refuse to get baited into a pointless circular argument. I've been on ATS far too long to not notice when someone is trying to start an argument.

Comments such as this further cement my desire not to be drawn into a pointless argument with you:

Again, the sources you provide (at least one of the links) suggest that the seasoned killers aka SS officers had stronger stomachs than you imply, otherwise they'd throwing up all the time and wouldn't have been a good enough shape to commit all teh outrages they did commit.

I refuse to argue about SS oficers throwing up or their dietary habits. By the way, did you miss the part about the 30th SS Division being made up of Soviets?

Heck, the Soviet Union had all sorts of religions from Buddhism to Catholicism to Orthodoxy.

Communism itself is based on a secular society, hence my statement of the Soviets persecuting Jews because they are defined by religion. It was religion, not only Jewish religion they wished to eliminate.

Wait a second, you were just lecturing about WWII, when the Bolsheviks were in power and Communism was the rule of the land,

Yes, it's called historical perspective

Had you taken the time to read all the information I cited you would've come to the conclusion that it is highly illogical to think that of the 18 million plus people Stalin murdered that none of them were Jewish. I never stated that they started a systematic murder of their Jewish population. In fact I said the opposite.

What I had said is that instead of welcoming the thousands of starving Nazi prisoners (many of whom were not Jews) they either murdered them or let them die. I think the fact that the Soviets threw grenades into prisoner's cells shows how highly they valued the life of a prisoner.

The Barbarism of of the Soviet Regime is quite well documented and if you'd care to do some of your own research I'm sure you will find this to be true. Had you read the link on the Lesser Known Attrocities you would have found that Soviet troops not only raped the prisoners but cut off their breasts and tongues and forced severed genitalia into their mouths before killing them. Quite indicative of the fact that they seemed to enjoy their work.

The fact of the matter is that war itself is an attrocity and to think that only the Germans were responsible for them is ignorant. Perhaps you've heard of the term "Pogrom", a Russian word meaning to cause destruction which has become synonymous with Russian Anti-Semitism and has a history dating back to at least the early 1800s. Russian anti-semitism is quite well documented.

As to my knowledge of Russian history and culture I believe you may be opening a can of worms as I spent much of my youth in the Russian section of Brooklyn and have known quite a few survivors of Soviet Prison camps. My best friend's father lost his middle finger escaping, he was imprisoned for speaking out against the government. I've also known many people and families of people who've served on every side and I like to take a broad objective view of history instead of the skewed propagandistic history you seem to be fond of.

If you would like to provide some links showing how the Soviets helped the surviving Jewish prisoners I'd be more than happy to read them. Until you can prove to me otherwise I will continue to believe in my conclusions based upon eye witness accounts, documented evidence and formal logical assumptions.

But since this thread is about the release of German documents relating to WWII I believe we should switch the conversation to the Pros and Cons and possible outcomes of the release of said documents, which of course is what I was commenting on before we were side tracked.

Originally posted by Shadowflux
I've been on ATS far too long to not notice when someone is trying to start an argument.

I've been on ATS longer than you and it's easy for me to notice when someone is making an unsubstantiated inflammatory statement.

By the way, did you miss the part about the 30th SS Division being made up of Soviets?

No I didn't miss that, as well as the fact that there were SS units made up of Lithuanians, Ukranians (both technically Soviet) and just about any ethnicity in Europe with noteable omissions of Jews (I think).

Communism itself is based on a secular society, hence my statement of the Soviets persecuting Jews because they are defined by religion. It was religion, not only Jewish religion they wished to eliminate.

As I said, this is a non-argument because Russians themselves are defined by a religion as are quite many other nations.

Wait a second, you were just lecturing about WWII, when the Bolsheviks were in power and Communism was the rule of the land,

Yes, it's called historical perspective

No, it's called non sequitur, which in Latin means there is a severe gap in your logic. Communists were prosecuting somebody Jewish because Jews were communists? How about that for flawed logic.

it is highly illogical to think that of the 18 million plus people Stalin murdered that none of them were Jewish.

Oh my sweet Lord. What an intellectual triumph! If this was the content of your speculation, I would have agreed with that. Yes, you take 18 million people off the street in any country of the world, you'll find a few Jews in the bunch. Yes. You are a genius.

Had you read the link on the Lesser Known Attrocities you would have found that Soviet troops not only raped the prisoners but cut off their breasts and tongues and forced severed genitalia into their mouths before killing them. Quite indicative of the fact that they seemed to enjoy their work.

If I follow your logic, (or lack thereof) the pics from Abu Graib prison in Iraq demonstrate beyond reasonable doubt that all American soldiers are sexual deviants or maybe even canniblals in the style of Dr. Lecter.

The fact of the matter is that war itself is an attrocity and to think that only the Germans were responsible for them is ignorant.

Well, yes Sir. It's even more ignorant to make a generic statement that typically Russians would wipe out the prisoners they were supposed to liberate.

As to my knowledge of Russian history and culture I believe you may be opening a can of worms as I spent much of my youth in the Russian section of Brooklyn and have known quite a few survivors of Soviet Prison camps.

No Sir, from where I sit, your knowledge of Russia seems quite pathetic at best. You see, I was born, brought up and went to college in that country. My relatives were imprisoned under Stalin. One of my grandfathers was in infantry and made it to Berlin, which is not a small feat. Another family member was a paratrooper and is MIA. I worked on Russian farms. I picked up pieces of WWII shrapnel from the ground. Born a Russian, I know quite a bit about the religion, culture and psyche of that nation. I'm sorry but your years in the jewish ghetto known as "Russian section of Brooklyn" don't count in that regard.

instead of the skewed propagandistic history you seem to be fond of.

I don't know where you got this idea -- I'm not fond of anything like that. I clearly stated I know about atrocities on the Soviet side.

But since this thread is about the release of German documents relating to WWII I believe we should switch the conversation to the Pros and Cons and possible outcomes of the release of said documents, which of course is what I was commenting on before we were side tracked.

That's a good idea, especially that the falsehood about the Soviets slaughtering the prisoners en masse as they were advancing in Europe has been debunked.




[edit on 19-4-2006 by Aelita]

[edit on 19-4-2006 by Aelita]

Originally posted by XphilesPhan
the russians killed at least as many jews and people as the nazis, the nazis are just demonized more about it u would be quite shocked to discover how many people in the world died because of communists.

No one that pays atttention to history is shocked by this, most peopel here are aware that the communists, especially under stalin, killed millions.
The Nazis are considered particularly vile because they did it out of gross bigotry and racism. Hardly excuses the soviets, but its a factor in the sheer horror of it.

We will never know how many people were really killed

You're probably right, but its on the order of 6 million jews.



I think its very unlikely that this release will actually lessen the horror of the holocaust, the germans sat on it for a reason, and it wasn't to help some 'evil jewish cabal perpetrating a holocaust myth'. These documents will probably show just how intentional it was, just how many people in germany were aware of it and in one way or another helped it, and how the real numbers of those exterminated are staggering.

Well, as I stated before I'd like to state again that I had no need nor want to get into an argument with you, especially one that doesn't relate to the original topic. Reading your response it is quite obvious that you are taking an overly personal stance on this whole debate and allowing your personal emotions to cloud your ability to debate properly, check my references or even adequatly understand my statements.

As I said, this is a non-argument because Russians themselves are defined by a religion as are quite many other nations.

Granted, but we are talking about Soviets, Communists, not Russians, I believe you would agree that Russians and Soviets are two different things since the Rus orginated from the Nordic regions and the Soviets were a politcal ideology.

No, it's called non sequitur, which in Latin means there is a severe gap in your logic. Communists were prosecuting somebody Jews because Jews were communists? How about that for flawed logic.

Actually what you're doing is putting a spin on my statement, taking it completely out of context as you did with my original post. It is quite obvious the Soviets were not still blaming Jews for the assination of a Tsar a few hundreds years before WWII either. What I was doing was giving documented examples of Russian Anti-Semitism from multiple points in history to help paint a broader picture as a debate on an historical period without reference to actions before and after said period would be completely pointless.

If I follow your logic, (or lack thereof) the pics from Abu Graib prison in Iraq demonstrate beyond reasonable doubt that all American soldiers are sexual deviants or maybe even canniblals in the style of Dr. Lecter.

I believe there are quite a few that would label your comment as a distractive attempt to convince the ignorant of your position. I would, however, agree with that statement if we found piles of bodies stuffed in cellars with their sexual organs shoved in their mouths at Abu Ghraib. I think there are few that wouldn't agree given that possibility. If the Russians were only guilty of making their prisoners walk around naked and be dominated by women then I wouldn't have made any statement about the brutality of the Soviets.

Well, yes Sir. It's even more ignorant to make a generic statement that typically Russians would wipe out the prisoners they were supposed to liberate.

Perhaps I could agree with you if you would provide any evidence that their goal was in fact to liberate the Camps for the good of the prisoners. Maybe I could agree with more of your statements if you provided any documented evidence at all.

No Sir, from where I sit, your knowledge of Russia seems quite pathetic at best. You see, I was born, brought up and went to college in that country. My relatives were imprisoned under Stalin. One of my grandfathers was in infantry and made it to Berlin, which is not a small feat. Another family member was a paratrooper and is MIA. I worked on Russian farms. I picked up pieces of WWII shrapnel from the ground. Being born a Russian, I know quite a bit about the religion, culture and psyche of that nation. I'm sorry but your years in the jewish ghetto known as "Russian section of Brooklyn" don't count in that regard.

Ah, and thus we have found the root of the emotions causing you to make hollow arguments. I understand that you may find my statements to be inflammatory given your history but in a true debate there is no room for personal emotions or opinions. Regardless of who knows more about Russia you still have failed to provide any evidence to back up your claims. In fact you've taken a defensive stance since you started with your one liner. I meant nothing in a personal sense, none of what I said was meant to be derogatory towards Russians, but I suppose if you wish to take it that way it's your business. However, being born a Russian it is obvious where the foundation of your perspective comes from. It is also quite obvious that you know better than anyone about racism and anti-semitism in Russia.

That's a good idea, especially that the falsehood about the Soviets slaughtering the prisoners en masse as they were advancing in Europe has been debunked.

Has it? Neither I nor anyone reading this thread has been presented with any evidence what so ever that your statement is true. Like I said before if you happen to have any evidence I'd be more than happy to read it but I'm not about to take your word for somthing on faith. In fact we really have no evidence that anything you've said so far is true. It seems as though you feel most everyone else will naturally view things your way but in this forum, as you should know by now, it's evidence that sways the people. If you need help figuring out the complexities of a Google search just PM me and I'll be glad to help.

I understand you feel the need to preserve the memory of your native land, it's an honorable motivation, one I can relate with myself, but here is no room for emotion in history, only facts. Since you have so far provided no factual evidence the logical conclusion is that your position is biased and unfounded. I've done my best to debate with you using the little fuel you have provided but I find it increasingly pointless as you argue semantics and seem unable to understand my statements. More over you seem loathe to provide an argument that is longer than two sentences. I am afraid that if this fails to get interesting I will just ignore it and apologize to Optimus fett for hijacking his thread like this. If, in that case, you wish to declare yourself the "winner" of this "debate" then so be it.


P.S. Not that it matters much in this debate but you've been on ATS all of 4 months longer than me

[edit on 19-4-2006 by Shadowflux]

You're probably right, but its on the order of 6 million jews.

Actually I was somewhat hoping the release would bring to light the true number of non-Jewish prisoners killed as they are the ones rarely talked about. Far from lessening the horrors of the holocaust I hope these pending releases will bring to light a greater understanding of what happened.

I was really hoping that it would be more than just names and numbers, that maybe there would be orders, blueprints, diagrams, pictures, productivity reports, letters, inventories, all the stuff you expect to find from a factory. (all be it a death factory)

Originally posted by Shadowflux
I would, however, agree with that statement if we found piles of bodies stuffed in cellars with their sexual organs shoved in their mouths at Abu Ghraib.

No, that wouldn't be an evidence of customary behavior of the Americans. As simple as that.

Perhaps I could agree with you if you would provide any evidence that their goal was in fact to liberate the Camps for the good of the prisoners. Maybe I could agree with more of your statements if you provided any documented evidence at all.

Sheesh. All I asked was a list of concentration camps in Germany whose population was slaughtered by the advancing Russians. Were there two? Three? Twenty?

Ah, and thus we have found the root of the emotions causing you to make hollow arguments. I understand that you may find my statements to be inflammatory given your history but in a true debate there is no room for personal emotions or opinions.

And even less room for speculation about specific mass behavior (extermination of all Jews) of the Russians as they were advancing towards Berlin.

Regardless of who knows more about Russia you still have failed to provide any evidence to back up your claims.

First, you tried to give more weight to your ludicrous statement by claiming superior knowledge of the subject. Then, when this didn't work out, you put the onus of disproving your lie on me. Huh?

In fact you've taken a defensive stance since you started with your one liner.

It was pretty freaking far from "defensive stance". It's an offensive against, I repeat, an uncalled for generalization which pictured Russians as more guilty of Holocaust than even ther Germans (who, according to you, mercifully let the Jewish prisoners just be when it was time to vacate the camp).

However, being born a Russian it is obvious where the foundation of your perspective comes from.

Jesus H Christ, so many things are obvious to you. I haven't even started digging into the perspectives of any sort and just asked for (see above) list of the camps wiped out by the Russians, with attendant evidence of said. If you can't provide that, you are a liar and a slanderer, and this has nothing to do with my place of birth or you socializing with the Brooklyn Jews.

Like I said before if you happen to have any evidence I'd be more than happy to read it but I'm not about to take your word for somthing on faith.

I don't have evidence of Russians driving millions of Jews into the woods to me machine-gunned. Do you? What then are you talking about?

If, in that case, you wish to declare yourself the "winner" of this "debate" then so be it.

This victory is nothing to celebrate, as it is over a feeble opponent.
Now back to the thread.

P.S. Not that it matters much in this debate but you've been on ATS all of 4 months longer than me

You repeat the same pattern here: you were the first to claim your superiority in all matters ATS based on the time spent here, now you say it's irrelevant. Same happened with your alleged expertise in Russian affairs. For God's sake have the guts to not go into such travesty.

Congratulations Aelita, you've sufficiently bored me, maybe we can do this again sometime when you've learned to debate properly.

Originally posted by Shadowflux
I know I may get slightly slammed but I am no Holocaust denier. However, I think this may not bode well for what has become known as "The Holocaust Industry" (also the title of a very good book written by the child of real holocaust survivors, which you can read online). the fact of the matter is that there are people who will exploit somthing no matter how sacred it may be, even if it's sacred to their own people. Statistics show that there are more "survivors" now then there were at the end of WWII.

The problem with letting this information out is that we will have a better list of who was actually a victim of the Holocaust which in turn will make good evidence in any future lawsuits.

It will also expose the true numbers of the prisoners based on their "crimes". remember, Hitler didn't kill only Jews, pretty much any non-Aryan and a few of the Aryans were targets as well. It might not bode so well if we find out that the Jews were proportionatly not much larger than the other victims.

This may be of interest to you?

Row upon row of metal cabinets at the International Tracing Service hold the key to the lives — and deaths — of 17.5 million of Adolf Hitler‘s victims.
Nazi Archive Has Millions of Victim Names

Considering that estimates for the numbers of Jews killed during the Holocaust vary between 4-9+ million, and the number for non-Jews vary between 4-7 million, seems to me that when combined these numbers (statistics) sufficiently fit within that quoted above 17.5 million of Adolf Hitler's victims, would it not?

I am not sure about your mention concerning the "Holocaust Industry," but the Germans opening Holocaust files will certainly vindicate academic and Holocaust scholars who have long disputed the "Holocaust Revisionism Industry." This will certainly be a damaging blow to those revisionists who have long preached and spread their vile propaganda.







seekerof

Holocaust Industry Wiki

Norman Finkelstein Wiki

The Holocaust Industry is the title of a book by Norman Finkelstein, I did not write it nor did I originate any of these claims.

I'd like to say this is officially the last time I discuss the holocaust. With anybody

Originally posted by Shadowflux
The Holocaust Industry is the title of a book by Norman Finkelstein, I did not write it nor did I originate any of these claims.

Nor did I say or indicate that you did.

I'd like to say this is officially the last time I discuss the holocaust. With anybody

I will remind you of what you originally said:

I know I may get slightly slammed but I am no Holocaust denier. However...

seekerof

I will remind you of what you originally said

Which is exactly why I won't discuss it anymore, I have yet to enter into a discussion on this topic, here or otherwise, without it degrading into what you've seen here. People will pick through what you say and find the most insignificant statement unrelating to the topic and pounce because it's easier to take the stance of defending the holocaust even if I was neither attacking nor denying it.

I could've argued that an estimate of 4-9 million people leaves quite a gap and hardly leads to conclusive numbers. Frankly, I don't care about the holocaust anymore, I've heard enough about it to fill a life time and I think there are far more interesting things to study. I've deffinitly had enough of trying to both defend myself and keep the debate on topic whenever I try to discuss it.

The holocaust was bad, but so are all holocausts ("Oh my god, there's more than one?") and there is little to make this one more distinctive and important than the rest. They are all motivated by hate, bigotry, greed, and madness. As a matter of fact I am here on out not calling it THE Holocaust anymore, I will refer to it as the Jewish Holocaust.

lol...well.....that got a bit more' interesting' than i expected.....!

Actually I was somewhat hoping the release would bring to light the true number of non-Jewish prisoners killed as they are the ones rarely talked about. Far from lessening the horrors of the holocaust I hope these pending releases will bring to light a greater understanding of what happened.

this is one of the points i was kind of trying to raise. 'Blueprint' is a good word for what will hopefully be exposed along with details of names and actions that may have been overlooked or un docummented else where. I think its got a close link to the recent events of saddam being convicted of signing death warrants by analyzing his hand writing. Im thinking more along the lines of long awaited justice being administrated to Nazi war criminals that have previously been aquitted regarding the 'lack' of evidance.

Thanks for your input all, i think shadow and aelita deserve some points for some of the 'politest' arguing ive ever seen on ATS!......

Originally posted by Shadowflux
Which is exactly why I won't discuss it anymore, I have yet to enter into a discussion on this topic, here or otherwise, without it degrading into what you've seen here.

Well Shafowflux, this might be indicative either of your style or maybe your point of view that some find foolish.

People will pick through what you say and find the most insignificant statement unrelating to the topic and pounce

Wait a second, a general statement saying that Soviet troops contributed greatly to Holocaust by killing large numbers of Jews in Germany's prison camps hardly qualifies as "insignificant". It's pretty darn significant, and a lie. Third time in a row, you try to run away from an argument that didn't go your way.

because it's easier to take the stance of defending the holocaust even if I was neither attacking nor denying it.

Holocaust is defined as a systematic extermination of Jews. By arguing that the percentge of Jews perished was same as for any other nation involved, you negate the Holocaust. Just be honest.

Frankly, I don't care about the holocaust anymore, I've heard enough about it to fill a life time and I think there are far more interesting things to study.

Yes, it's about time you get educated. Also, it's a bad idea to write on a subjet you don't really care about. You'll just look silly.

Suffice it to say that there were atrocities and mass murder conducted by both the Germans and the Russian, but are the actual statistics really relavant? It is history worth putting behind us, but certainly not to be forgotten.

I have occasionally wondered to myself why there was so much said of the Jewish holocaust, but much less said of the victims of Soviet Russia. I explained it to myself that it was probably because that for all the post-WWII years, those victim and the families of those victims of Stalin continued to live behind the Iron Curtain of communism, while the Jews mostly resided in open societies, where they were free to speak openly.

As for the Russians, it is undoubtedly true that when the tide was turned and they began their long march to Berlin, those in their path suffered greatly. The Russians had good reason to be filled with such hatred - From the time that Operation Barbarossa started to the fall of Berlin, it is estimate that between 25-30 million Russian/Soviets were killed, including about 3 million PoWs who were basically starved to death. The German made it obvious when they began their invasion that they would show no quarter, and that they considered their Russian enemies and sub-human; the exploits of German units such as the Einsatzgruppen and Waffen-SS are well known.

Thus it comes as no surprises that the advancing Red Army, brimming with uneducated peasant soldiers with little or no dicipline or training would act in the manner in which they did. What is disturbing and unforgivable is that this behavior was generally accepted, if not condoned and advocated, by the senior Russian military leaders. It is said that if you were a woman living in eastern Europe between 1943-1947 and you were not raped at some point by a Russian soldier, you were very, very lucky. Indeed, to this day in Germany, the Red Army war memorial in Berlin is popularly known as "the Tomb of the Unknown Rapist".

As far as the Jews are concerned, the Russians knew in advance about the existance of the concentration camps, and were not either moved or impressed. Their feelings for the Jews were, at best, contemptuous indifference. When the concentration camps were "liberated" by the Russians they did not simply pick up where the previous owners left off. They did, however, conduct mass killings of Russians who were found inside these camps. Some were ex-Red Army soldiers who has switched sides and were left behind by the Germans, some were simply Russian PoWs. In either event, the communists viewed them as enemies and they were liquidated. The Jews were viewed as a class enemy, not a political enemy, so they were much lower of the list of Stalin's enemies. Germans 1st, Russian traitors 2nd, German collaberators 3rd, political enemies 4th, and then all others (which included the Jews).

The simple fact of the matter is that the Germans did not leave enough Jewish prisoners alive for the Russians to make that great an impact on the overall number of dead. While the communists may have made their "contributions" in some small way, the vast majority of the heinous evil conducted against European Jewry is on the hands of the Nazis. The blood of all the Europeans and Russians killed can equally be shared, however.

The idea that the number of Jewish murders, and the associated guilt, could somehow be reduced, or redistributed away from the Nazis smacks of anti-semitic holocaust revisionism, which is a vile and unfortunate product of our open society of free speech.

However, the fact that these file may shed more light on the deaths of those peoples who were mercilessly killed by the Nazis in great numbers (gypsies, homosexuals, Catholics, Jehovah's Witnesses, slavs, Poles, etc....) could only be a good thing. As a matter of fact, it should only serve to actually amplify and accentuate the pleads of the holocaust survivors that we must learn, never forget, and never ever let it happen again.