Britons turning to the extreme right in large numbers

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posted on May, 27 2006 @ 02:23 PM
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Our most popular Labour supporter has once again applied his party spin to another thread.

We are lucky we dont have a PR system in this Country, if we did, we would have a fair amount of BNP MPs sitting around and chanting.

[edit on 27-5-2006 by infinite]

[edit on 27-5-2006 by infinite]




posted on May, 27 2006 @ 03:04 PM
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Originally posted by infinite
Our most popular Labour supporter has once again applied his party spin to another thread.


- It's not "spin", thems the facts.


We are lucky we dont have a PR system in this Country, if we did, we would have a fair amount of BNP MPs sitting around and chanting.


- and if my aunt had balls............................



posted on Jun, 6 2006 @ 04:56 PM
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It says something when the BNP is the "sanest" party out there.

If they would just tone down their rhetoric, they could really gain some ground on the major parties.

It would make Labour's University Trotskys gag on their bean curd risotto.



posted on Jun, 6 2006 @ 07:39 PM
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Originally posted by Winchester Ranger T
It says something when the BNP is the "sanest" party out there.


- No it doesn't, not at all because quite obviously they are not.
But you making that kind of assessment of them does say plenty about you WR.


If they would just tone down their rhetoric, they could really gain some ground on the major parties.


- Where have you been?
They have been trying to "tone it down" and pretend they are not a racist and neo-fascist party for years.

.....but the British people still see right through them and refuse to give such an obviously racist and neo-fascist party any real power.
They can wrap the flag around themselves as much as they like but enough people know they are the very antithesis our British values.

46 out of 22000, 0.2% or so isn't it?
Wow, not exactly what anyone could call a break-through, huh?
(even the UK 'Greens' managed to do better than twice that result)


It would make Labour's University Trotskys gag on their bean curd risotto.


- Feel free to let us all know WR, where are all those 'Labour trots' supposed to be in 'Tory Blair's New Labour' party.

I wish people would make their minds up, one moment they try and claim it's a radical leftist party and the next it's digs that they're no longer 'socialist' and no different to the tory party.

But "trots"!?

Talk about being out of touch and well out of date!



[edit on 6-6-2006 by sminkeypinkey]



posted on Jun, 6 2006 @ 08:14 PM
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Well, it looks like this thread has poked its head up once more. It seems to rear up once every few months, with people becoming even more alarmist as time goes on. However, it is always an enjoyable thread to post in. So much fear over such a laughable issue.

So where do we start?

Let’s start at first, with the media. Do they really have a large involvement in the issue? Do they promote one agenda over the other? To both of these, it is a no. The media is a business, it is based around selling as many units as possible. Due to this, the media has to be Politically Correct it is for no other reason than to shift more units. Often enough people speak of the Class conflict, with newspapers and they do not desire to create a Race Conflict as well. Where many people of a set ethnicity will only buy one newspaper and not the other. That’s not good for sales.

As for immigration into the United Kingdom, is there a problem? In reality, immigrants only make up a small percentage of the United Kingdom. If you go to an area where lots of Asian people live, of course you’ll see many of them. However, walk down the High Street of many places that have been mentioned. Let’s take Coventry - I was born in Coventry, I grew in Coventry and Wolverhampton. If I go to them, I see a vastly larger amount of white people than I ever do black. The real problem is, institutional racism in the United Kingdom to this day. This removes the ability for immigrants to accurately factor in to the society.

Take for example pay. It is always made publicly aware that women are paid less than men, however immigrants are paid even less than their white counterparts for doing the same job. With lower incomes, comes lower life chances. They can’t send their children to Private Schools, Medical Insurance, decent food, clothing, or housing. This results in immigrants moving into areas they can afford - with one another. Once this happens this means people can’t begin to disperse, meaning a large population of people never interact with immigrants. As you move up the class system, this becomes even wider. So people in positions of power begin to speak to them less and less and ignorance creates fear.

So then you have people who have never interacted with immigrants, never lived in those communities deciding what happens to them. This can be seen - seen clearly - in the Legal system, which I work in. Black people and immigrants are more likely to go to prison compared to their white counterparts. Once someone is placed in prison they are then labelled and this label is harder to break. So then these negative stereotypes are played over and over. Anyone old enough will know how this happened to the Irish, now more clearly to Muslims. But because people do not interact with immigrants these stereotypes are harder to break.

Immigrants, do not come into the United Kingdom to take your jobs. The fact it, business looks to Europe, Africa and the Middle East to fill gaps in the sectors that need them. This will happen while Britain has a society in decline - an ageing population. Slowly, we do not have enough people to fill all the jobs that have been created and to generate enough tax so that people can retire. If we do not fill our own ranks, business will look elsewhere. Yet, it is shock that many of these people who protest so strongly against immigrants are willing to wear clothes manufactured abroad, drives car made outside of the United Kingdom. They are the first people to be destroying our manufacturing sector to get cheaper goods and the hypocrisy of it all is laughable.



posted on Jun, 6 2006 @ 08:18 PM
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Originally posted by Skadi_the_Evil_Elf
as well as supporting a bunch of low lifes who are pissing out kids left and right on council estates, living off benefits and cheating the system and going out drinking and partying on government money.


State Benefits?

My friend, who had to leave his house at 16, due to his mothers heroin addiction adn failure by the Social Services to put him into care is on £30 a week. He was in full time education, with straight A grades on 4 subjects and had to drop out due to how little he gained from our State. The Social system in this nation is awful and I wish for you to live on £30 a week including taking food, bills, etc, out of it.

Immigrants and British people alike, can't live off of our Social System.



posted on Jun, 7 2006 @ 10:10 AM
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Originally posted by Odium

As for immigration into the United Kingdom, is there a problem? In reality, immigrants only make up a small percentage of the United Kingdom. If you go to an area where lots of Asian people live, of course you’ll see many of them. However, walk down the High Street of many places that have been mentioned. Let’s take Coventry - I was born in Coventry, I grew in Coventry and Wolverhampton. If I go to them, I see a vastly larger amount of white people than I ever do black. The real problem is, institutional racism in the United Kingdom to this day. This removes the ability for immigrants to accurately factor in to the society.


Is it really a small percentage?
According to the British Government there are 4.9 million foreign born persons in the UK, accounting for 8.3% of Britain's population. If you add the children of immigrants, who were born in the UK, the number is probably much, much, higher.

statistics.gov.uk



posted on Jun, 7 2006 @ 11:52 AM
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Yeah ok but check your own link AoB.

The biggest 2 groups of 'foreigners' (included and a very large part of that "4.9 million foreign born persons in the UK, accounting for 8.3%") here in the UK are either Irish or European born peoples, as it says.

.....and if you think that it is the Irish or EU Europeans that are 'the problem' when people are complaining about 'too many foreigners here' you're kidding yourself.

[edit on 7-6-2006 by sminkeypinkey]



posted on Jun, 7 2006 @ 12:10 PM
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Originally posted by sminkeypinkey
Yeah ok but check your own link AoB.

The biggest 2 groups of 'foreigners' (included and a very large part of that "4.9 million foreign born persons in the UK, accounting for 8.3%") here in the UK are either Irish or European born peoples, as it says.


I think you should read the rest of that link sminkey.

However, the proportion born in Europe fell between these years, from 51 per cent to 33 per cent,

[...]

While 92 per cent of people born in the UK identified themselves as White in 2001, 53 per cent (2.6 million) of the foreign-born population was White.

Only about half of the almost 5 million foreign born persons in the UK are white and the number seems likely to drop even further judging by the fall in European immigrants to only 33% percent of the total of recent immigrants.



posted on Jun, 7 2006 @ 12:19 PM
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Originally posted by AceOfBase
Is it really a small percentage?
According to the British Government there are 4.9 million foreign born persons in the UK, accounting for 8.3% of Britain's population.


According to Tony Blair, we have no idea of the exact number. So the estimates could be too low or even too high. For all you know it could be 4% could be 12%. Alas nobody knows for sure


Originally posted by AceOfBase
If you add the children of immigrants, who were born in the UK, the number is probably much, much, higher.


Again, you do not know for sure the amount of them. So again it could not even be 8.£5 including the children. However, if you think about it everyone in hte U.K. is an immigrant.

However, 8.3% is not a lot of people. When you think that'll include every type of immigrant, African, Asian, European. So less then 1/10 people. Again that's not very high at all.



posted on Jun, 7 2006 @ 12:36 PM
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Originally posted by Odium

Again, you do not know for sure the amount of them. So again it could not even be 8.£5 including the children. However, if you think about it everyone in hte U.K. is an immigrant.

However, 8.3% is not a lot of people. When you think that'll include every type of immigrant, African, Asian, European. So less then 1/10 people. Again that's not very high at all.


I think it's at least 8.3% because they even gave exact numbers of the people they know about for sure, not an estimate.
The next largest ethnic groups for people born overseas were Indian (569,800) and Pakistani (336,400).

There may be many more who they don't know about but its very doubtful that there are any less than what they have listed.

Also, 8.3% is very high for foreign born persons when you consider that immigrants have a lot more children than the native population.



posted on Jun, 7 2006 @ 01:37 PM
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So what if they have more children? They'd have to make over double the amount to ever gain a majority of people in the United Kingdom. Furthermore, once they're born here they are British.

Also it is just as doubtful there are many more than the are less. Roughly 1/11 is about right for the amount of immigrants and that's nothing. As per-normal people are using scare tactics. There are not that many immigrants in the United Kingdom.

In fact, there was a nice peice written today: Europe in Immigration Quandary It still looks like more people are dying in the E.U. than are being born. So we might just need some more of those immigrants.



posted on Jun, 7 2006 @ 02:02 PM
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Originally posted by Odium
In fact, there was a nice peice written today: Europe in Immigration Quandary It still looks like more people are dying in the E.U. than are being born. So we might just need some more of those immigrants.


Its better to let the population fall than to replace it with non-Europeans.
Britain would be better off with a population of 50 million who are almost all ethnically British or European than a population of 80 million with 30 million Pakistanis, Bangladeshis and Africans.

If Britain needs immigrants so badly why doesn't the Government grant Asylum to the 4.5 million white South Africans?

EDIT: BTW, It is estimated that whites will become a minority in London by 2010 and will become a minority through the whole country by 2100. Other European countries are predicted to become non-white majorites by 2050. That's within our lifetimes.




observer.guardian.co.uk

Whites will be an ethnic minority in Britain by the end of the century. Analysis of official figures indicate that, at current fertility rates and levels of immigration, there will be more non-whites than whites by 2100.

It would be the first time in history that a major indigenous population has voluntarily become a minority, rather than through war, famine or disease. Whites will be a minority in London by 2010.


[edit on 7-6-2006 by AceOfBase]



posted on Jun, 7 2006 @ 06:25 PM
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Originally posted by AceOfBase
Its better to let the population fall than to replace it with non-Europeans.
Britain would be better off with a population of 50 million who are almost all ethnically British or European than a population of 80 million with 30 million Pakistanis, Bangladeshis and Africans.


Why though? You've yet to give one reason for this.


Originally posted by AceOfBase
If Britain needs immigrants so badly why doesn't the Government grant Asylum to the 4.5 million white South Africans?


Why only the white South Africans? Why not the people already here?


Originally posted by AceOfBase
EDIT: BTW, It is estimated that whites will become a minority in London by 2010 and will become a minority through the whole country by 2100. Other European countries are predicted to become non-white majorites by 2050. That's within our lifetimes.


And? It's not like these people have came over here, evicted our Government, taken our land, killed our leaders and forced us to be their slaves. Nor do they treat us as second class citizens. So where is the problem?



posted on Jun, 7 2006 @ 08:37 PM
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Originally posted by Odium

Why though? You've yet to give one reason for this.

[...]

And? It's not like these people have came over here, evicted our Government, taken our land, killed our leaders and forced us to be their slaves. Nor do they treat us as second class citizens. So where is the problem?


Here's one reason why its a bad idea to not control the level of ethnic immigrants:


thisislancashire

FAMILIES feared for their safety as gangs of white and Asian youths fought a running battle outside their Bolton homes.

Up to 60 youths carrying iron bars, clubs and even a sword were believed to have been involved in the brawl in Hawthorne Road, Deane, on Saturday night.


Incidents like that one will be more common as the numbers of ethnic immigrants rise.

They're even fighting amongst themselves:


education.guardian.co.uk

A group of Somali boys were sitting outside a cafe on Stratford Road in Birmingham talking about their experience of school. Modqtar, now 17, was beaten up twice a day and picked on for having poor English. The perpetrators were often Asian gangs.

Five years after his family fled Somalia, the teenager was petrified about travelling around his adopted homeland. 'I have to get two buses here, and two buses back. That is four chances of getting beaten up every day. They shout at us to go back to where we came from. But they are not from here either.'

His friend Mustafa nodded sagely, adding: 'We get attacked by everyone in school - Asian gangs, white gangs, black Jamaicans. Everyone wants to fight us.'


In spite of what you may like to beleive people of other races and religions generally don't get along well with each other and that's one of the reasons that people segregate themselves. People are not happy living in multicultural places, as the homeoffice itself has stated:



BBC

It is an uncomfortable conclusion from happiness research data perhaps - but multicultural communities tend to be less trusting and less happy.

Research by the Home Office suggests that the more ethnically diverse an area is, the less people are likely to trust each other.

The Commission for Racial Equality has also done work looking at the effect of diversity on well-being.

Interviewed on The Happiness Formula, the chair of the Commission for Racial Equality, Trevor Phillips accepts that people are happier if they are with people like themselves.


How many race riots have there been in Britain in the last 20 years?
It seems like they happen every couple of years.

If there's ever a military conflict with Bangladesh or Pakistan, like the war in Iraq, it would be hellish living in Britain. Who would the Pakistanis fight for? You would have an enemy inside the gates.

It would just be a safer, happier, and less violent place without millions of ethnic immigrants.

EDIT: Are you sure they aren't treating white Britons as second class citizens?
I've heard there are a lot of areas in Britain that are no-go areas for whites.

[edit on 7-6-2006 by AceOfBase]



posted on Jun, 8 2006 @ 06:54 AM
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AceofBase, we can do this one by one just to make it even easier.

Your first source, dealing with battles between Asian Youth and White Youth, along with the second souce dealing with Black on Black crime are pointless. Your first source, does not go to point out why these problems have been actually happening and you have no ability to know the White Youth did not start this. Is it fair to punish innocent people? And as for the second source? Sorry I've seen white on white crime myself, from non-immigrants. Neither of your sources do display why there is a problem with having immigrants in the United Kingdom, but rather bad things to happen every so often.

Then we can go onto your other sources. Time after time, I've seen you tell other people to read all of their own sources so why don't you:

[rl=http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/programmes/happiness_formula/5012478.stm]Source[/url]
The arrival of the Huguenots or the Jews into Britain brought significant social tensions which have largely disappeared.

So maybe the problems we see now are due to how new the problem is? People for the first time are really have to mix with others - others which they see as different.

Like it or not, non-immigrants are just as violent. Like it or not, without them there would still be crime. The real issue with crime is the underlying social issues. Immigration isn't the issue, it's just something that public blindly follow.

As for these so called no-go areas? Well, as for the poster who said them: I was born in Coventry, lived in Wolverhamtpon and lived in areas where we were the only white family. In fact, I still go there to visit people and this is called a "No go area" yet I see countless white people walking through them when I go there. In fact, throughout my whole life I have only ever been threatened by an immigrant once compared to countless times by white British people.

Like it or not, they are just as bad.



posted on Jun, 8 2006 @ 06:55 AM
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OK SO !
ive tried to stay out of this thread for a while now, ive been looking at it but didnt respond, so now its time to put my 10penneth worth in!!
If ive lost the plot about here im sure some one will tell me


the original thread was about britons turning to the far-right?
first : the bnp are not far-right yes they are right wing but far right ..dont make me laugh!!
i think that there is a populas within the white community of the uk that all though NOT rascist, have began to have what some ''lefty-courdroy wearing-do-gooders'' will say rascist views, mainly these being:
looking after indiginous peoples first
put pensioners before immigrants
spend tax payers money on childrens education/hospitals insted of help with funding for asylum centers and or mosques?
THESE ARE NOT RASCIST VIEWS....BUT VEIWS FROM PEOPLE WHO BELIEVE IN PUTTING THEIR COUNTRYMEN FIRST!!!! WHETHER THESE PEOPLE ARE BLACK/WHITE/YELLOWOR ANYTHING
any other country this would be deemed acceptable but not in uk?

There are many many people who in the 60/70's (who had come from pakistan/bangladesh/africa/china) and their kin who have helped build this country, BUT EVEN they are getting P****d off with all this , i know this for a fact as i have many friends who are ethnic who know the way i feel BUT feel exactly the same....

We can go on about statistics forever....but the truth is the truth,
stats can be made to lie we all know that look at the original number of ''repeated foriegn offenders '' the gov originally said they releasd by accident and how quick that number jumped dramatically!!

Im not against helping people but education is the best form of help, not an open door policy, you cannot keep on letting UNKNOWN people into the uk without it being a complete drain on the economy and peoples frsutration, ''the unkowns'' have to work in the balck market as they are unkowns so they are not putting ANYTHING back into this country.

The gov will tell us that they have it all under control for the most part but this simply isnt true, immigration whether it be legal or illegal is STILL ON THE RISE and will continue to until this soft nation of do-gooders finally realise..

Maybe if they (the do-gooders) have to find help for some reason ie lose their jobs and have to pay a mortgage, and all the crap that goes with it they will realise that the unknowns do get favourable treatment at times?
Ive had first hand treatment of this..believe me

This is not a right wing rant.......but a veiw from someone who some people may feel is right wing (becuase its pc correct to slag anyone off who says anything like whats been said here)but i aint!!!



posted on Jun, 8 2006 @ 11:42 AM
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It's funny how the story that BNP (now for the umteenth year running pretending not to be a racist noe-nazi party; yeah right
) are always "on the verge of....." with those (not racist, honest) people always "waking up to....." or who are "about to....." blah blah blah.

Talk about a claim that relies on a total ignorance of the British political realities (despite us just having had a general election one year agao and local elections just over a month ago) and of our past.

It's the same thing they always claim.

Same as they claimed in the 1930's, 1940's and 1950's with anti-Jewish riots in the east end of London.
Same as they claimed in the 1960's with large groups of workers going out on strike 'in support' of Powell.
Same as they claimed in 1970's with the NF (and the NF had far larger marches/demos creating trouble in various so-called 'immigrant areas').

But it just never quite happens at the ballot box though, does it (and they're never anywhere near getting in in a really meaningful election like the ones for the Westminster Parliament, eh)?

.....and that "indigenous people first" is a particularly revolting if sometimes a little seductive line (for all those non-racist people, of course).
The world's 5th richest nation on the planet should deliberately turn their backs on the worlds most needy and desperate?
Nice idea from nice people.


No wonder that in the recent council elections even the UK Greens beat them with a result that was twice that of the BNP's.

But I guess we can be pretty certain we won't see too many strident threads insisting that "the UK is turning to the Green party in large numbers", huh?



[edit on 8-6-2006 by sminkeypinkey]



posted on Jun, 8 2006 @ 05:18 PM
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Oh sminkey

you keep forgetting when quoting stats that:
the original poster said that britons are turning to the far-right inlarge numbers?
as i said before the bnp are not far-right..its that simple
sure they are right wing but far-right i think you would have to look at the likes of :
league of st George/stormfront/C18 or that type of organisation for them to be ''far-right'.
What i cant understand is the bnp are an elected party ..like it or not, yeah , therefor they do have the right to campaign as do all the other parties, and like it or not people although in small numbers are turning to them in the 'hope that they can do what the other parties promised but didnt deliver'.

I dont understand your quote of:
t's funny how the story that BNP (now for the umteenth year running pretending not to be a racist noe-nazi party; yeah right ) are always "on the verge of....." with those (not racist, honest) people always "waking up to....." or who are "about to....." blah blah blah.
ive got nothing to hide mate, im genuinly not a rascist person but god brought me into this world in England and white ..being proud of that FACT is not a rascist comment, just the same as a person of jamacian origin would be proud to be black, there is nothing rascist in that comment either!!!

you quote of :
Same as they claimed in the 1930's, 1940's and 1950's with anti-Jewish riots in the east end of London.
well you may have things mixed up here mate..these group of thugs were BUF british union of fascists and had Nothing to do with bnp as we know it today.
well as for the NF they are long gone and forgotten as far as many are concerned (within the right wing) the days of skinheads in boots and braces are over.
They in their day were too un-organised and too extreme for their time IMHO?

Sminkey ive had many a tit-4-tat discussion with you and i know you well, you are a very intelligent and well read person, but sometimes i feel your comments are very blinkered (very left-wing) and you pick up on the smallest of parts and then quote stats for this?
Imust say that to the majority your stats have BEEN accurate, but we know stats take a long time to coallate and therefor the time they are published they become inaccurate to the present time.
Just today on the news they were talking about ''world migration''
in 2004 over 400,000 people from within europe migrated to the uk with only 67,000 uk residents migrating elsewhere.
like i said that was 2004 we are now in 2006 things have changed......
in addition switzerland had the most migrants and the uk was 3rd, japan had the least.
Look, im not saying that this or that should be done, but we are only a small island in a bloody big world so it would seem to effect the economic issues in this country more than if this country was the size of russia for argument sake.

We ALL have got to open our eyes a bit more those of us like myself (who some may feel that i have right wing views) and those like you sminkey and realise things are changing, and its not an ideal world we are living in mate.
There is so much money in the world today and for F**K SAKE kids NO matter where they are NO matter what colour they are SHOULD NOT BE GOING WITHOUT FOOD!!!


there should be NO poverty in the world in 2006

ANYWAY..thats the end of my rant, although it isnt directed at you sminkey (coz i know you will come back and shoot me down in flames
) some of it i want you to take notice of and understand, i am not aswell read or intelligent as you and do not know how to express the opinions im trying to put accross as you may do,
but
ive tried



posted on Jun, 8 2006 @ 07:10 PM
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Originally posted by spymaster
as i said before the bnp are not far-right..its that simple
sure they are right wing but far-right i think you would have to look at the likes of :
league of st George/stormfront/C18 or that type of organisation for them to be ''far-right'.


- I suppose it's personal judgement and I'll accept that the BNP isn't combat18, but that isn't 'the standard' by which we should judge them IMO.
You're entitled to believe the BNP aren't "far right", but you are definitely in a minority there.


What i cant understand is the bnp are an elected party ..like it or not, yeah , therefor they do have the right to campaign as do all the other parties


- I don't deny anyone the right to seek votes, it's one of the pillars of our system.
That doesn't meant to say that they (or anyone else) will be free from robust comment, challenge or criticism. Surely?


ive got nothing to hide mate, im genuinly not a rascist person


- Don't be so defensive sm, I have no reason to think otherwise.

But I have met several BNP/NF people over the years when I lived in the London area (not far from Barking and all the recent fuss there).
More than a few of these people are racist and neo-fascist nazi admirers, they have chosen to deliberately pursue a policy of keeping that as quiet as possible.


but god brought me into this world in England and white ..being proud of that FACT is not a rascist comment


- Well it seems for some reason that this may surprise you but I agree with that.

The problem isn't in feeling a sense of pride over what you are or where you are from, the problems usually begin when some people start to think that those are grounds to look down on or discriminate against others who do not have the same 'qualities'.


well you may have things mixed up here mate..these group of thugs were BUF british union of fascists and had Nothing to do with bnp as we know it today.


- OK, there's truth in that as an absolute but if you trace the chops and changes following the demise of the BUF it is quite clear that the BNP are the present-day version or outcome from that root or 'lineage'.


the NF they are long gone and forgotten as far as many are concerned


- Again, if you only wish to state the absolute then this is so.
But is it undeniable that many in the BNP are ex-NF members who moved to the new 'party'. Some because they thought a new unknown 'more likely to' as opposed to a thoroughly discredited NF
(yes I know there were splits and rows too but putting it in simple terms).


the days of skinheads in boots and braces are over.
They in their day were too un-organised and too extreme for their time IMHO?


- They certainly lacked 'public appeal' it is true but you'll still find that kind of element in their support base and it is evident whenever they descend on an unfortunate town to 'agitate' and exploit any local racial problems.


Sminkey ive had many a tit-4-tat discussion with you


- Tit for tat sm?
I would have hoped it was better....perhaps usually a little challenging, interesting and informed to and fro?
That's what I hope is going to be going on.
I'm always happy to knock ideas and views back and forth with anyone, really, I certainly don't expect people to hold my viewpoint and I do respect the right of everyone to hold their own views and beliefs.


you are a very intelligent and well read person


- You are too kind.....and I have absolutely no reason to think otherwise of yourself.


i feel your comments are very blinkered (very left-wing)


- Maybe so, but I would hope not "blinkered" though.
I make no secret of being a long-time member and supporter of the British Labour party.....and even agreeing with the pragmatism of 'New Labour', so very left-wing?! I disagree.
I would say I am a centrist with more 'social democrat' leanings than any 'super left-ism'.


you pick up on the smallest of parts and then quote stats for this?


- Well if I do do that I intend and would hope that it is relevant and germane to the issue and point I am trying to get over.


I must say that to the majority your stats have BEEN accurate


- "majority"!?
I would honestly say that I have never knowingly put up any figures that were inaccurate or intended to mislead.


but we know stats take a long time to coallate and therefor the time they are published they become inaccurate to the present time.


- Fair enough, but we have only what we have - and I wouldn't try to claim to be always able to lay my hands on the best set of figures all the time either.


Just today on the news they were talking about ''world migration''
in 2004 over 400,000 people from within europe migrated to the uk with only 67,000 uk residents migrating elsewhere.
like i said that was 2004 we are now in 2006 things have changed......


- Well quite.
But a few years is a very narrow timescale, interpretation and context are also very important.
Go back further, say 10 or 20 years and I could also post figures that show that until quite recently it was not the UK that people were coming to and that Germany and France were the big 'magnets' for many many years for taking immigrants.


Look, im not saying that this or that should be done, but we are only a small island in a bloody big world so it would seem to effect the economic issues in this country more than if this country was the size of russia for argument sake.


- I understand this point and I would not dismiss it entirely and say it has no merit at all (although I do think that it is often 'used' by some to further a completely different agenda).

The UK is a hugely rich nation but that wealth is poorly dispersed.
The problem IMO is that those who benefited most from that wealth (historically acquired during the time of Empire) have now walked away and left the rest of us to deal with the predictable consequences of Empire - a community from almost everywhere and people from outside not surprisingly wanting to come to those communities instead of somewhere where there are not people 'from home'.
Set this in the context of little social housing provision now and it isn't surprising that people feel upset.

The broadest backs are no longer even pretending to take the heaviest loads anymore, I'm not surprised 'the people' resent the burden.

But IMO the answer isn't to turn on either ourselves (see the idea of a 'fat tax' or the other one that surfaces from time to time of refusing health treatment to smokers.....like they don't already discriminate on the quiet anyway
) or on those in the worst possible circumstances (and that really is the truth of the situation for many asylum seekers.....not absolutely all, true, but it's also true some people have been deliberately confusing this amongst the other issues of general immigration and illegal immigration).
Nor is it to fear or blame the immigrants that we need (and whether one takes marginal views about what is or is not 'too many' we do need a degree of immigration).

The 'answer', IMO, is to have sane and reasonable taxation policies which meet the need instead of this unsustainable and crazy 'dutch auction' for ever lower tax rates for corporations, big business and those already most wealthy and privileged.
I'm not suggesting spiteful, enterprise-killing punitive tax rates but on the otherhand those who try and kid us that a tax rate is the 'be-all and end-all' of the attractions to weigh up for living in the UK we can probably do well without anyway.
IMO wanting to live in the UK should be about a damned sight more than a marginal top level of taxation rate(s).


We ALL have got to open our eyes a bit more those of us like myself (who some may feel that i have right wing views) and those like you sminkey


- You'd never catch me thinking I knew it all matey.
I'll defend my view with some vigor at times but where would this place be if we all thought the same or instantly agreed with each other, eh?



and realise things are changing, and its not an ideal world we are living in mate.


- Of course, but it is also only fair to recognise that this has always been so and that the world is how it is only because we either make it so or tolerate it to be so.
Or we can all carry on watching TV and just bellyache (although I hear viewing is declining).
I know it isn't easy for many but worthwhile change rarely is.

I would (and have) encouraged people to get into politics (even in parties I disagree with). If you are a democrat then hearing what the people say and want should soon help mould your views properly, whatever party you start out in.


kids NO matter where they are NO matter what colour they are SHOULD NOT BE GOING WITHOUT FOOD


- Preaching to the choir, sm.



there should be NO poverty in the world in 2006


- Testify brother (or sister....how do I know?).

You'll get no argument from me on this either.


it isnt directed at you sminkey


- You lie man, this was full of comments to me.



(coz i know you will come back and shoot me down in flames
)


- As if I'd even think of such a thing.



i am not aswell read or intelligent as you


- I'm not trying to patronise you sm but don't put yourself down like this, I have no reason to be thinking the kind of thing that you are telling me here.


and do not know how to express the opinions im trying to put accross as you may do,
but
ive tried


- Doesn't look to me like you have the slightest problem, sm.






[edit on 8-6-2006 by sminkeypinkey]





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