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Britons turning to the extreme right in large numbers

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posted on May, 5 2006 @ 02:09 PM
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Originally posted by Englishman_in_Spain
the figures speak for themselves, the people have spoken.


- They do indeed.

46 council seats out of 22 000.
news.bbc.co.uk...

Had you said ' Britons turning to the extreme right in pifflingly small numbers' you'd at least have had the consolation of being accurate.

BTW the final results are that the BNP have 46 council seats and the Greens have 102.
news.bbc.co.uk...


Today Barking, tomorrow.......


- Oh please, stop it, my ribs are starting to ache.
You should be on the stage.


[edit on 5-5-2006 by sminkeypinkey]




posted on May, 18 2006 @ 11:48 AM
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I wonder what constitutes the "Far Right" these days in the UK - someone who doesn't like curry perhaps, or maybe someone who reads the Daily Mail.

When your current location is slightly to the left of Trotsky, the Far Right is a relative concept. The BNP seems to be a very watered down version of the National Front.

A right wing UK, lord we can but hope.

I suggest they start by putting the current government on trial for crimes against the state, designate the Wandsworth Council chambers a practice site for laser guided bombs, and jail or deport every single Muslim who does not sign a written statement supporting the war on terror and denouncing Osama bin Laden as a murderer. Repeal the statute on the use of racist language, establish a "castle doctrine" for lawful self defence by home owners, triple jail senteces for all categories of crime, quadruple sentences for anti-social behaviour and alcohol related violence, dismantle the welfare state, reduce taxes across the board, deport all asylum seekers, and establish a Constitution.

That would be a start.



posted on May, 18 2006 @ 11:54 AM
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Originally posted by Winchester Ranger T
I suggest they start by putting the current government on trial for crimes against the state, designate the Wandsworth Council chambers a practice site for laser guided bombs, and jail or deport every single Muslim who does not sign a written statement supporting the war on terror and denouncing Osama bin Laden as a murderer. Repeal the statute on the use of racist language, establish a "castle doctrine" for lawful self defence by home owners, triple jail senteces for all categories of crime, quadruple sentences for anti-social behaviour and alcohol related violence, dismantle the welfare state, reduce taxes across the board, deport all asylum seekers, and establish a Constitution.

That would be a start.


- Another strange post WR, you're making a habit of them.

"Crimes against the state" how very fascist of you.

Dream on.

Wow, a self-loathing (even if you do 'project' it against the nation you, in the next breath, will probably claim to love so much - how typical of those on the 'right') wannabe right-wing American.

Thankfully you are, apparantly, the USA's problem now.

(......and your ducking the truth about how 'Britons are not turning to the extreme right' stands out a mile.)

[edit on 18-5-2006 by sminkeypinkey]



posted on May, 18 2006 @ 12:06 PM
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Originally posted by sminkeypinkey
- Another strange post WR, you're making a habit of them.

"Crimes against the state" how very fascist of you.

Dream on.

Wow, a self-loathing (even if you do 'project' it against the nation you, in the next breath, will probably claim to love so much - how typical of those on the 'right') wannabe right-wing American.

Thankfully you are, apparantly, the USA's problem now.

(......and your ducking the truth about how 'Britons are not turning to the extreme right' stands out a mile.)

[edit on 18-5-2006 by sminkeypinkey]


I address the issue and you just insult me, how typical of YOU.

I suggest you read the forum rules and try to overcome your lack of respect for others.

Can someone please ban this troll.



posted on May, 18 2006 @ 12:15 PM
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Originally posted by Winchester Ranger T
I address the issue and you just insult me, how typical of YOU.


- Where did you address the issue (that Britons were supposedly going to turn to the extreme right in large numbers - in the recent council elections) and where did I insult you?

Isn't talk about "crimes against the state" one usually used and to be found in typically fascist/totalitarian regimes (of extreme left or right....what's the difference?), hmmmm?

Maybe you should look again, I did not actually call you a fascist.

.....and isn't the rest of that rant (about dismantling social provision, repealing laws against racist language, making all Muslims - no sign of any differentiation about the British born or otherwise - sign up to some oath or face jail or deportation and bombing the parts of Britain which prefer politics you don't like) kind of anti-democratic and Britain-hating, hmmm?

Your last silly Britain bash effort was removed wasn't it?

Is that sort of stuff meant to be the kind of respectful debate you claim to prefer?!

Perhaps it was this bit that so hurt your feelings -

Wow, a self-loathing (even if you do 'project' it against the nation you, in the next breath, will probably claim to love so much - how typical of those on the 'right') wannabe right-wing American.

Thankfully you are, apparantly, the USA's problem now.


- OK, so 'self loathing' is my label but it's surely no worse that your inference that I was "slightly to the left of Trotsky' (in my book anyway).

In any case it seems to me to be perfectly clear that you loath the British nation as it actually is these days (your posts are invariably filled with discriptive terms of degeneracy, failing etc etc slamming the UK as it is today......and if you really think I am being unfair and you have had good things to say about the UK these days then tell and show me where and I'll happily apologise.).

Clearly you have right-wing attitudes and IIRC do live in the USA which you so much admire and wish the UK was so much more alike.

So, where's the insult?


I suggest you read the forum rules and try to overcome your lack of respect for others.


- I am aware of the rules and you can point out this grevious 'attack' if you like, if you can actually find it (outside of your own imagination).


Can someone please ban this troll.


- What's up WT, can't stand some debate and your arguements being challenged?


[edit on 18-5-2006 by sminkeypinkey]



posted on May, 19 2006 @ 12:17 PM
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Compunding your insults with lame justification and childish taunts is not the way forward here.

Grow up.



posted on May, 19 2006 @ 12:57 PM
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I have been living here in britian for the past 6 months. Despite the short time Ive been here, people I have spoken to have absolutely nothing nice to say about the current policies and political correctness. Everyone Ive spoken to is very anti immigration and is quite enraged at this current government for its half assed attitudes towards immigration. Alot of people would either vote for the BNP or support it.

What bothered me further is the fact that everyone I know here or have met, are either preparing to leave the country and live elsewhere, or want to leave the country. No one wants to stay. destiniations fo choice that people have told me they are planning on going are Canada, Australia, New Zealand, U.S., even South Africa, with European destinations like Spain and France requently mentioned as well. Even my husband has no desire to stay here. Although I have told him that I prefer it here to Spain, where he wants to go live, he is dead set on leaving here. He even plans on selling the house in Spain and moving back to America with me.

This bothers me because I have found England to be a really nice country. I sure as hell like it better than Spain, although not as much as my homeland, its still a nice place. Yet none of the English want to sta here. The reasons most often told to me are immigration, taxes, crime, multiculturalism, policies, cost of living. I think its terrible really. So many people want to leave their homeland and become on of the things causing them the most grief: foreigners.

I cant blame the British for being pissed off with the current state of things. When you have legal action taken against school kids for racial slurs, or a bunch of foreign criminals being released into the public at large, its only natural people are becoming irate and their tolerance levels being stretched to the breaking point.

Even though i am a foreigner, I really cant hold it against people here for wanting some semblance of sanity back, and their country and culture at least respected and conformed to. I can only hope that a clear message is sent to the politicians of both major parties, and that they will start taking notice of the dissatisfaction of the public at large. Or they can ignore it at their own peril.

Remember, only one election before Hitler was voted into power, the Nazis only got 2% of the vote. Something to think about.

It is only natural that people are pushing further and further to the right after being pushed too far left by the government. The same thing happened in America, hence the power the right gained 5 years ago after 8 years of too much lefty oppresion. it seems that neither the American nor british governments understand the concept of happy middle ground.

My husbands eldest son now votes and supports the BNP. This is a guy whose ex girlfriends were African, Indian, Jewish, and Pakistani. Troubling indeed.



posted on May, 22 2006 @ 09:56 AM
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You have voted Skadi_the_Evil_Elf for the Way Above Top Secret award. You have two more votes this month.


Well said. It is interesting to see anothers viewpoint and I agree with every word!



posted on May, 22 2006 @ 11:07 AM
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What Skadi said about Britons wanting to move abroad is absolutely true. In the last 5 or 6 years I have seen and heard a massive increase in people either moving abroad, or seriously wanting to, with the countries Skadi listed being the exact same "choices".

And I agree with Skadi about not being able to blame them either. No matter how good you paint Labour, they aren't doing as good a job as people would like, in many different areas. Whether they vote for a right wing party or move abroad, a lot of people are going to desert Labour, if they haven't already, IMO.



posted on May, 22 2006 @ 11:19 AM
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Well even Alf Garnet (Archie Bunker to the US audience) had and was entitled to his opinions.

But let's cue up a reality check here.

We just had some elections, admittedly nothing like as important as a general election........which we have also just had in May 2005.

The premise that "Britons turning to the extreme right in large numbers" is manifestly not true as those elections demonstrate in the clearest manner possible, the British simply are not.
No matter what anecdotal 'evidence' people imagine they have.

......and I'd love to hear what this "lefty oppression" is supposed to be about.
Cos everyone knows that one of Blair and 'New Labour's ' failings with the public is, supposedly, the lack of 'left-ness' and them (and him) being to much like the tory party (hence the name 'Tory Blair' often applied to him, right?).



posted on May, 22 2006 @ 01:55 PM
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Skadi you have said it spot on.

Regardless of getting into statistical tangles about how many seats the BNP did or didn't win, it still remains that a party not so long ago on the very fringes of the political process are now slowly gaining ground and it's because people are feeling disenfranchised, frustrated and angry and grasping at any straw no matter how unsatisfactory it will prove to be in the long term. I think it's a remarkable testement to the tolerance and faith of British voters that it wasn't more but it's certainly not an excuse for complacency, the same old greiviences and political side stepping will lead to voters turning to extremist parties if the mainstream parties keep on telling us how hysterical, selfish and misinformed we are and continue to do nothing.



posted on May, 22 2006 @ 03:09 PM
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The only thing I can see that is hysterical around here are those who keep on insisting that the BNP's marginal increase in council seats - whilst still remaining a tiny tiny party of the British political spectrum - is something to unduly worry about and indicative of a huge leap in their support.

Just to make it clear and spell it right out nice and plain the facts are (from a vote held less than a month ago) -

46 council seats out of 22 000.
news.bbc.co.uk...



posted on May, 23 2006 @ 12:53 PM
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Fait enough 'large numbers' isn't exactly the case, but I am aware that many people are considering voting BNP and the party has had an increase of voters. From a personal viewpoint, both personal friends and work mates are all considering voting BNP and the stigma over the BNP (although still looked down upon in the general media) appear to be taken more seriously recently, many aren't embarrased to express support for the party publicly. The more the BNP party are shown to gain support in the news the more they will attract undecided voters who want their vote to count in which previously they may have thought the BNP would have no chance or it would be a completely wasted vote. Hold on and i'm more than sure the BNP will rise with each and every election.



posted on May, 23 2006 @ 05:59 PM
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Originally posted by sminkeypinkey
The only thing I can see that is hysterical around here are those who keep on insisting that the BNP's marginal increase in council seats - whilst still remaining a tiny tiny party of the British political spectrum - is something to unduly worry about and indicative of a huge leap in their support.

Just to make it clear and spell it right out nice and plain the facts are (from a vote held less than a month ago) -

46 council seats out of 22 000.
news.bbc.co.uk...



So we should just be complacent yes? It's only the plebs moaning....who cares.



posted on May, 23 2006 @ 07:36 PM
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Originally posted by ubermunche
So we should just be complacent yes?


- Who said anything about wanting to be complacent about this?

There's a world of difference and variation in between that and running around squeeling like silly hysterical children over a 'threat' which, currently, is anything but.


It's only the plebs moaning....who cares.


- Interesting turn of phrase you prefer to use there, I wonder why?

Keeping a calm sense of proportion and recognising the truth of where this 'threat' has been at historically and where it currently is at is perfectly proper and reasonable.

......and the issues presently giving them a little 'traction' will not just be ignored by the main British political parties either, although their idea of 'solutions' will not be 'employed'.



posted on May, 24 2006 @ 02:21 PM
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Originally posted by sminkeypinkey

- Who said anything about wanting to be complacent about this?

There's a world of difference and variation in between that and running around squeeling like silly hysterical children over a 'threat' which, currently, is anything but.


There is also a world of difference between those who run around 'squeeling like silly hysterical children' and those highlighting concerns about political issues, immigration is not being regulated, our borders are not secure, crime (the kind we really worry about) is going through the roof and the police and judicial sytem seem unable or unwilling to deal with it adequately.


Interesting turn of phrase you prefer to use there, I wonder why?


Wonder away, feel free to share any conclusions you reach with me.


Keeping a calm sense of proportion and recognising the truth of where this 'threat' has been at historically and where it currently is at is perfectly proper and reasonable.


It's not just about 'the threat' smikey, in a sense this is the secondary argument, we should focus on why people are thinking, considering and talking about such things, what the underlying cause is, focusing on the disease and not the symptom.



posted on May, 24 2006 @ 10:02 PM
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Um, Sminkley Pinkey............

The lefty oppression Im talking about is not from Labour party directly. Rather, im talking about extreme leftist ideas, the politically correct nonsense, the too far left swing in many issues that seems to stem from nowhere in paticular but is rabidly enforced boy non elected officals and agencies of the government. It goes beyond polictical parties and encompasses so many factions and special interest groups of society that you cannot really pin the blame soley on one party or another.

Example: 1950's America was ultra conservative whitebread paradise. very strict and uptight. But this crush of conservatism eventually caused people to want to break free and try something new. The turbulent 60's came, with massive social upheavals. Many old, shameful instituions such as segregation were finally ended, and finally, the American government wrote into law that civil rights were the domain of all Americans, regardless of race, religion, or gender. Although it took quite some warring to get it into practice, it was a massive step forward. Then came the who hippie counterculture. protesting the Vietnam war. People were starting to shift more towards the left in their views of everything. Things like sexuality, sexual preference, conformity, normality, ect, suddenly were no longer the repressed dont talk about it subjects they once were. Drugs were used openly and freely, and suddenly, it became quite acceptable to be critical of your government and country and not be a communist.

This trend, however, kept moving further and further left to the point it started getting TOO left. Bring on the 70's. Martin Luther and his dream were dead, and in its place were groups of militant blacks preaching the same hateful message in a different color that the Nazis once preached. The happy love-ins and hippie mellow out fests were now gone, and instead of the "spiritual psychedelics" and mind expanding pot taken for spiritual reasons, heroin and coacaine, the most destructive drugs around at the time, became the rage. Instead of a bunch of kids gathering together on communes to turn on, tune in, and drop out, we now had nasty cults popping up involved in some pretty dark, twisted, and often violent crap. Criticism and dissastisfaction with the government and peaceful demonstrations gave way to underground terrorist cells and a culture of hatred for the country. vietnam vets, many who were drafted into service, returned home, and instead of pity for the poor guys who were sent to fight one of the most pointless wars in history, they were abused and insulted. Free universal love became pointless self gratification at cheap bars and pick up joints. Families were starting to fall apart. Divorce rates became higher. Americans become tired of this too liberal new society, and in extreme reaction, swing in the opposite direction.
Then come the 80's. Right wing nutjobs wet dreams come true. The country swings culturally towards the right to make up for too much leftness. The "Moral majority" take over. Christian fundementalists are now making national policies. Suddenly, war is no longer uncool. We build loads and loads of dangerous weapons in a crazy arms race that drives our national debt sky high. Ridiculous paranoid parents groups start wars against rock music. paranoia of a satanic conspiracy reigns supreme, and televangelists are screaming for book burning and banning of "unchristian" material. Massive unemployment strikes the country as car companies lay off thousands of workers so they can send the jobs overseas for cheap labor. People suddenly become as paranoidly anti-communist as they were in the McCarthy Era. the rich get rich, the poor get poor. the war on drugs becomes a new battle cry in the US, and anti drug paranoia skyrockets. The country now has swung too far right.
Enter the 90's. the country lightens up. A new era of openness occurs. Formerly classified documents are now being opened, old issues being re-examined. We finally learn that the government DID indeed experiment on unsuspecting people. people now question and become healthy and cynical of the government. Conspiracy theory flourishes. the Soviet Union has collapsed, the cold war is over, but new problems will soon take their place. I wont go into detail, but the country swung again back too far left. hence, now we see America in its right wing nut faze.

Now Britian is a completely different country, different culture, different histories and phases. The British are not extremists. Its not in your nature. The British have a reputation of being sensible and moderate people, as well as quite tolerant. However, that tolerance has been pushed, and the good will of people here abused. You have these lefty nuts who want to prosecute 10 year old kids because they called another kid a Paki in a school yard fight. You have some school who wish to eliminate mothers day card maiing by the children because it might offend kids with homosexual parents. You have failed assylum seekers who have committed crimes against people in their new country who live off the system while screaming for the destruction of "godless Britian". You have people being harrassed by the cops for having anti-homosexual views. You are taxed out of your skulls to fund a National healthcare system that is being horribly mismanaged, as well as supporting a bunch of low lifes who are pissing out kids left and right on council estates, living off benefits and cheating the system and going out drinking and partying on government money. Dangerous foreign criminals are released from prison into society at large only to commit crimes again, when they were supposed to have been deported in the first place. Crime rates are rising to levels unimaginable in this country, generally considered the most civilized in the world. Anti-social behavior is becoming increasingly common, in my opinion, due the the relaxing of discipline and standards in the schools.



posted on May, 24 2006 @ 10:27 PM
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To continue my long, drawn out rant from before.....................

Multiculturalism is destroying the social cohesion in this country. Instead of new arrivals from different countries being encouraged to integrate, contribute, and become British in culture and identity, they are instead encouraged to retaintheir old national identity and cultural practices, thus segregating various communities and creating a fractured society where no one understands or wants to undertsand each other. Being British is no longer the encouraged goal of people comming here. One does not have to totally give up all semblance of one's former homeland to integrate. They can bring new ideas and cultural curiosities to be experienced. However, cultural sharing cannot happen when cultures choose to segregate and define themselves as completely alien from their neighbors.

Ill give you an example of some stuff Ive seen since Ive been here that makes me understand why people here are fed up with how things are going.

A friend of mine's sister is living in a council flat with her teenage kids. She has been a single mother all thier lives. She is currently collecting benefits from the government. Yet her boyfriend lives there. He is a self employed electrician. The kids have cell phones and go on lots of holiday trips. AND SHE IS COLLECTING BENEFITS. When someone tried to report her, the authorities didn't even bother to go out and investigate. Just rang her on the phone and asked her if her boyfriend lived there. her obvious answer was no. End of investigation. Yet a neighbor of ours who was collecting a pension from his late wife had the welfare people sneaking up on his lawn and looking in his windows because someone said that a woman ahd been seen in the house on a few occasions. The social worker then came by knocking on the door and telling him he was under investigation for benefits fraud. They claimed they had came by one night, walked up his front garden, looked in his window, and saw a woman cooking dinner. it turns out that the woman in question was a lady friend of the man who sometimes came over and would make dinner for him and keep him company. She did not live there.

The immigration problem seems a big one on the minds of most Brits I talk to. they are quite fed up with the lax and overly generous system, and they do feel like they are lesser people in their own country. perhaps if the major political parties would start listening to their concerns with a fair mind instead of automatically calling them "little Englanders" or bigots, then people would not feel the need to look to the far right for a sympathetic ear. Addressing their concerns in a respectful manner could go far in easing alot of problems here.

But as long as Labour and the Tories continue to blow off the problems of the silent majority, people are going to look more to the fringes for help.

Ill say it again, I think this is a wonderful country and its really distressing to me that so many people are trying to leave. if the fact that 75% of Brits polled said they want to leave their own homeland isnt a sign that things arent too happy for them at home, then I dont know what is.



posted on May, 25 2006 @ 10:06 AM
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OK, let's have a look at part 1 -


Originally posted by Skadi_the_Evil_Elf
this crush of conservatism eventually caused people to want to break free and try something new.


- I very much dispute this, it wasn't a case of wanting to try something 'new' it was all about having governance and social values which reflected our reality as opposed to someone else's (usually a narrow historical/religious 'social elite's') vague and unrealistic ideas of what they should be.


Things like sexuality, sexual preference, conformity, normality, ect, suddenly were no longer the repressed dont talk about it subjects they once were. Drugs were used openly and freely, and suddenly, it became quite acceptable to be critical of your government and country and not be a communist.

This trend, however, kept moving further and further left to the point it started getting TOO left.


- Well I'm sorry but I don't believe sexual liberation nor a libertarian view on drugs is especially 'left' or 'right'.

Sexual repression and a rabid hostility to the personal freedom recreational drug use entails is a common characteristic of authoritarian regimes (whether they dress themselves up as 'left' or 'right').


we now had nasty cults popping up involved in some pretty dark, twisted, and often violent crap.


- We have always had delinquency (especially post war(s) ); the idea that youth, generally, was at some indeterminate point always 'well behaved' is simply a myth.

The historically new part is the least advantaged youth with more free time and money. Previously they would have had little of either but a look at the hstory books shows just what terrible and unsafe places the poor ends of our towns and cities actually used to be (as opposed to the fantasy version of the past).


Criticism and dissastisfaction with the government and peaceful demonstrations gave way to underground terrorist cells and a culture of hatred for the country.


- I will refer to experience here in the UK (although I doubt very much it is/was that different elsewhere) but almost all the 'terrorist cells/groups' we have/had here were all long established and absolutely nothing to do with a drift 'left' or 'right', the rights or wrongs of the British in Ireland has been around a hell of a lot longer that any notions of a post 1960's culture.

I would suggest you have a really good hard look around you this summer and try and spot all that "culture of hatred for the country" you imagine is so prevalent out there cos in amongst the sea of St Georges flags and national fervour for the England football team it'll be very hard to spot. Ditto the sprouting of US flags in many places in the US nowadays.


Questioning the rights and wrongs of ones' countries foreign or domestic policies is not "hatred".


vietnam vets, many who were drafted into service, returned home, and instead of pity for the poor guys who were sent to fight one of the most pointless wars in history, they were abused and insulted.


- Do you think this is anything new?

You should read about the manner in which veterans were treated pre-WW1.


Free universal love became pointless self gratification at cheap bars and pick up joints.


- Again is this supposed to be a new invention - or the 'left'!?


Families were starting to fall apart. Divorce rates became higher.


- Now this one is new.
Rather than be subjected to a silent reign of terror with a public facade of 'decent' family life women could, much more easily, break free and out of disastrous marriages, as could men.

Is that supposed to be a "lefty" thing or a sensible liberty all should have freedom to if necessary?


I wont go into detail, but the country swung again back too far left. hence, now we see America in its right wing nut faze.


- I disagree, the label 'left' for the Clinton era is (with, IMO, a couple of small exceptions) wholly inappropriate.
Compared to say Nixon, again with a couple of exceptions, Clinton was quite right-wing.

I'd contend Bush's 'success' is a result of marginal obvious differences and electoral chicanery (twice).


You have these lefty nuts who want to prosecute 10 year old kids because they called another kid a Paki in a school yard fight.


- No.
You have 'newspaper' reports of an instance where this has, supposedly, happened.
You cannot point to courts prosecuting umteen children on this basis.

We are, as a society, well within our rights to choose to instruct schools over what behaviour is and is not acceptable, in this instance to ensure racist language is seen as unacceptable.

Personally I don't see that as a 'left' or 'right' issue.


You have some school who wish to eliminate mothers day card maiing by the children because it might offend kids with homosexual parents.


- Again you have a 'newspaper' report of such a thing.
Check with the card manufacturers, the idea that 'Mothers Day' is being PC'd to extinction is pure and rather silly fantasy.


You have failed assylum seekers who have committed crimes against people in their new country who live off the system while screaming for the destruction of "godless Britian".


- It appears that (thanks to this gov. actually taking the statistics on this - a first) that there may be a problem here.
IIRC 5 who might have been deported committed crimes.
It will be dealt with.

That is just a very recent 'bandwagon' and hardly the years of 'lefty oppression' you mentioned.


You have people being harrassed by the cops for having anti-homosexual views.


- No.
We are trying to reduce incitement to 'hatred'.

People can and do hold whatever private views they like but in public, business or in political life prejudice over gender, sexual orientation, creed or colour is not going to be tolerated as a, or the, basis on which people are treated.

This is a perfectly reasonable and civilised approach (how would you like it if it were allowed to be otherwise and you or yours could be treated in your commercial or public life on the basis of crass prejudice, hmmm?)

Again I contend this is nothing to do with 'left' or 'right' and simply a matter of personal liberty which ought to carry across all political boundaries.


You are taxed out of your skulls


- No we aren't.

Tax rates in the UK are still low compared to many (most?) western countries.


to fund a National healthcare system that is being horribly mismanaged


- In your opinion.

Within 15mls of me I can point to 3 hospitals (I have used or visited recently) with major new buildings and facilities.
The NHS might not be perfect but it is very good and has radically improved.

I'd take the UK health system over the US system anyday.

[edit on 25-5-2006 by sminkeypinkey]



posted on May, 25 2006 @ 10:28 AM
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Part 2 -


Originally posted by Skadi_the_Evil_Elf
as well as supporting a bunch of low lifes who are pissing out kids left and right on council estates, living off benefits and cheating the system and going out drinking and partying on government money.


- Again do you imagine problem areas are something new?
You should read some of the old histories of what the poor and 'working class' areas of the inner cities were once like.
Things, generally, are so much better despite the tabloid scare-stories and the quaint and totally inaccurate look back to a 'golden age that never was'.

As for state benefits?
Have you seen how low they are? Or how difficult to get?

.....and if there is no other means of support what then, huh?

But benefit fraud is not a matter of 'left' or 'right', as a matter of fact this particular government has tightened up the rules considerably.


Dangerous foreign criminals are released from prison into society at large only to commit crimes again, when they were supposed to have been deported in the first place.


- You already mentioned this and as was pointed out earlier the number of re-offenders is apparantly 5.
It's not exactly the end of the world or years of 'lefty oppression', huh?


Crime rates are rising to levels unimaginable in this country


- No.
Crime rates in most catagories and in most areas (with a couple of exceptions) is falling, it's a reality and not such a big surprise with our aging population.


Anti-social behavior is becoming increasingly common, in my opinion, due the the relaxing of discipline and standards in the schools.


- Well anti-social behaviour certainly exists, hence the government's 'Respect' agenda.

.....but surely a wee while back you were complaining about schools dictating about behaviour?


Multiculturalism is destroying the social cohesion in this country.


- 'Multiculturalism' has been a fact here since almost forever.
'We' British have travelled the globe, fought, traded and settled the whole world over for centuries and a consequence of that is a 'community' from just about everywhere.

.....and it's not as if the human race sprung up here, we're a nation of immigrants.


Instead of new arrivals from different countries being encouraged to integrate, contribute, and become British in culture and identity, they are instead encouraged to retain their old national identity and cultural practices


- Quite rightly.
Just as everybody that ever emigrated to anywhere did.
Why should they lose any trace of their cultural identity?

The alternate 'integrationist' approach certainly hasn't worked too well for France, hmm?


Being British is no longer the encouraged goal of people coming here.


- Not true.
A schooling in 'British-ness' is now part of the program of immigration.....thanks to this government, another first .


However, cultural sharing cannot happen when cultures choose to segregate and define themselves as completely alien from their neighbors.


- "Choose"!?
You'll find just about all the immigrant waves we ever had end up "segregated" and in the poorest crap end of town/country, to begin with.
It's almost always. initially, nothing to do with "choice".


Just rang her on the phone and asked her if her boyfriend lived there. her obvious answer was no. End of investigation.


- So far as you know. How do you know they aren't 'observing' the situation?

But again that's hardly conclusive 'evidence' of years of 'lefty oppression'.


the woman in question was a lady friend of the man who sometimes came over and would make dinner for him and keep him company. She did not live there.


- Yeah, silly stuff goes on....especially because the majority of benefit fraud 'leads' come from the public themselves (I have friends who work in the benefit system).
Always has done probably always will.


The immigration problem seems a big one on the minds of most Brits I talk to. they are quite fed up with the lax and overly generous system, and they do feel like they are lesser people in their own country.


- Well the amount of myth that is out there would tend to lead people to believe all sorts of stuff on this issue, little of it wholly accurate from what I can make out.

Nevermind the popular myth, the truth is British governments (of all 'colours) have been 'tightening up' immigrations controls here almost every year since the late 1950's.
The really crazy thing is that much of these irrational fears and low-level racism comes from areas with few immigrants.


75% of Brits polled said they want to leave their own homeland isnt a sign that things arent too happy for them at home, then I dont know what is.


- I doubt it is historically much new, I can recall similar being said under Thatcher, who was pretty right-wing.

I can understand there may be instances of things that don't look 'good' or sound quite right or maybe areas of government that need serious review (the Home Office for instance is notorious in this respect - and has been for many many years) but I still can't see any of the years of 'lefty oppression' you mentioned.

Really I can't; nothing you have mentioned here fits the bill as far as I can see.

The majority of your complaint(s) are either common occurrences under 'left', 'centre' or 'right' governments or are simply not a 'left' or 'right' matter IMO.

......and I do think that trying to apply a 'lefty' label to the Blair government is simply well wide of the mark.
They are, IMO, centrist on foreign aid policy, centre-right on most economic (with the exception of the small amount of 'redistribution' Gordon Brown has indulged in), social and domestic policy and quite right-wing on foreign and defence policy.

Where is this 'lefty oppression'?

....and what remedy would you suggest?
No social provision at all, a completely private health service?
A reversal of the divorce laws perhaps?
Criminalising consensual private sexual behaviour?
The toleration of narrow prejudice as a basis for decision making in commercial and political life?

There will always be problems and things we can criticise but the alternative is, IMO, so much worse (as well as being at heart utterly illogical and undesirable).


[edit on 25-5-2006 by sminkeypinkey]





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