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Britons turning to the extreme right in large numbers

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posted on Apr, 20 2006 @ 06:14 AM
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Originally posted by u4ria
i wondered if they did get preferential treatment and did a little searching and it seems asylum seekers dont have to join the list of other people waiting on housing scheme lists, but are housed by the the home office a department called National asylum seeker service

Link

So when houses become open for rent whos to say the home office ride rough shot over everybody on the housing schemes and stake there claim first.


- You can point out some are lucky enough to get 'normal housing' but it has been obvious for some time now that there is a deliberate blurring of the terms 'immigrant', 'illegal immigrant' and 'asylum seeker'.

I note that there is a total ignoring about the detention centres, hmmmm?

How 'lucky' and 'riding rough shod' are they, eh?


At the end of September 2002, 1,445 asylum seekers were being detained in detention centres, 115 of which were held in prisons.

In February 2004, the Immigration Detention Estate comprised the following centres:
Removal Centres: Campsfield (184 - to be increased to 300); Dover Harbour (20); Dungavel (150 - to be increased to 194); Harmondsworth (550); Manchester Airport (16); Queens buildings (15); Tinsley House (137); Yarl's Wood Removal Centre (200 - to be increased to 450 when rebuilt); Removal Prisons: Dover (316); Lindholme (112); Haslar (160); Reception Centres: Oakington (400)

www.politics.co.uk...$2108038.htm


so if it is streched the best thing to do would be to suspend the asylum untill they have cleared the backlog of people in need of housing.


- Pretend that one of the world's richest nations (which got so rich on the resources and labour of many of the countries these unfortunate people are from) can't manage a little charity and therefore you'd suggest 'we' turn our back on some of the world's most needy!?
Great.

Here's hoping it is never you and yours, huh?

.......and of course the sub-text in all of this (that immigrant communities don't contribute to British society) is plain laughable.

In almost every town and city throughout the UK there are examples of the hard work and business these people have brought - to the benefit of us all.

[edit on 20-4-2006 by sminkeypinkey]




posted on Apr, 20 2006 @ 08:05 AM
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Sminkeypinkey
I note that there is a total ignoring about the detention centres, hmmmm?


not at all, detention centres are there for foreign nationals looking for asylum and the best way to make sure none run off and turn into illegal imigrants.



Sminkeypinkey
How 'lucky' and 'riding rough shod' are they, eh?


i dont know, do you ?, but what they should be doing in my opinion fair enough let the home office handle the situation as the system is allready full to the brim but how about a little fairness they could at leas handle it but put them in the same queue as the rest of the people looking for housing in the social housing scheme.



Sminkeypinkey
Pretend that one of the world's richest nations (which got so rich on the resources and labour of many of the countries these unfortunate people are from) can't manage a little charity and therefore you'd suggest 'we' turn our back on some of the world's most needy!?


so if we are so rich why arent there enough houses for every 1 in england and why is the NHS so cash straped and everything else that needs money pumping into them, yet again its the rich looking after them selves and people who have little or no money being asked to contribute to charity.



Sminkeypinkey
.......and of course the sub-text in all of this (that immigrant communities don't contribute to British society) is plain laughable


nope they do contribute to british society some of the immigrants comming into the country have work skills that are lacking in the uk, and like ive said to somebody i know whos such a lazy ass that they wont get a job and live of the dole when they blaim immigrants for taking the so called jobs they go after, at least they do the jobs that some people deem beneath themselves in the uk.



posted on Apr, 20 2006 @ 09:25 AM
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I agree, however with politics and PC goin way over board in this country i feel altho im a white native that am gettin pushed to the back of the que, kinda thing..
as soon as u put up borders and fences around people then there conflict already, the government uses fear for control.
I dont think that us Brits are turning on asylum seakers, cos we blow up there home so we have to house them, but we cant have people walking in the country to leech of the economy, it dont make sence...



posted on Apr, 20 2006 @ 01:37 PM
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i spoke to a freind of mine earlyier to day, who had a few views about the whole immigrant situtation, he also is finding it hard to be rehomed and allthough he isnt racist reckons they should all be deported back to there countryies, i asked him if the goverment was to sort all the back log of people waiting to be rehomed and people who deserved benefits got them and all the things the goverment are trying to sort out, got sorted out i.e nhs .etc what whould he think about immigrants coming into the country and he said fair enough. Right this is never going to happen but at the end of the day the BNP and attitude towards immigrants is never going to end.

and ill say it again the PC group and walling off the comunities is just going to inflame the situation and give the BNP more to use to help there twisted cause.



posted on Apr, 21 2006 @ 02:18 AM
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I wonder if this was specifically about the asylum issue whether there'd actually be much of a story. Remember the BNP in their perfidious way are raising other concerns that are currently political hot potatoes such as crime, anti social behaviour, lack of affordable housing, council taxes etc. Certain issues that this govt have made encouraging noises about for years now, knowing full well the depth of feeling concerning them, yet they have resolutley failed (or as some suspect paid mere lip service) to bring about any positive change. Trying to minimise this whole thing down to a purely racial issue is IMO missing the point.



posted on Apr, 21 2006 @ 04:18 AM
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Originally posted by ubermunche.......crime, anti social behaviour, lack of affordable housing, council taxes etc.

Certain issues that this govt have made encouraging noises about for years now, knowing full well the depth of feeling concerning them, yet they have resolutley failed (or as some suspect paid mere lip service) to bring about any positive change.


- You have to be very selective about the crime statistics to claim there has been no improvement.
You'd also have to be blind and deaf not to have noticed this government's various moves to try and tackle anti-social behaviour
(which no matter how many measures are introduced to ease this are, in the end, always the actual responsibility of those committing the anti-social behaviour and not the government).

As for affordable housing?
Again they have done more than any UK government since the 1970's to bring back 'social housing'........but in a country where people are still not willing to pay higher taxes to fund greater social provision they are kind of stuck with limited options, no?

Finally the Council Tax.
No one likes paying taxes especially but this government have done more to help the most vulnerable (particularly the elderly poor).
It seems a tad unreasonable that as a people 'we' claim to want the best possible social (and local) provision and yet 'we' as a society aren't prepared to fund it properly - again something that is not ultimately the government's fault.

It'll never be perfect but to write it all off the manifest improvements made since 1997 as a "resolute failure" or "mere lip service" is IMO unrealistic and wholly inaccurate......

......and to move on from that to lay ones' expectations for improvement on that (good) record at the door of a laughably inexperienced, racist and fascist nationalist party is ridiculous.



posted on Apr, 21 2006 @ 04:39 AM
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Ok well I will throw my views in here.

I am more than happy for anyone to come into this country on a few certain conditions:-

1. They are here legally. If they claim asylum straight away and don't come here illegally then they should be assessed to see if they should stay. If they come here illegally then we should throw them straight out without any discussion. If they come in illegally they have broken a law and so that doesn't bode well for their future in this country. Doing this would maybe help discourage illegal immigration.

2. They must be able to speak English.

Anyone who argues this point really is wrong and I will explain why. If you go into a country and don't speak the language then you are almost forcing segregation. Communities form which are isolated and then these causes the problems.

I am currently looking at other places to live and if I go to a country I will expect them to want me to speak the language of that country. Not only that I would feel I needed and should learn it out of respect for that country. They could be housed in the centers until they learnt it and if they couldn't then send them back. Learning the language is a basic thing they should be able to do.

3. They should be educated on British culture. This does not meaning stripping them of their own religion or anything stupid like that. They should accept or at least tolerate ours views as we should theirs. Personally I find the mix of religions interesting but I suppose many don't. They shouldn't complain when someone makes a religious joke, or sticks something in a cartoon. Hell my dad is Irish and laughs at the Irish jokes that are told in the pub! It would be very easy for him to jump up and down and get angry but instead he laughs with it.

4. They must be able to contribute in some way. I have looked at moving to other countries and so far every one of them wants me to be able to get a job offer before I enter their country. I actually like this and I think it is a good policy that we should also employ. I am not saying they should have a 'trade' as many of these people never got a chance for such training. They should be offered the chance to train or a job. If they don't stick to it then chuck them out, I think this is more than fair.


As for the BNP I dislike them immensely as they are just racists, most of it is hidden but they are. It is quite scary how many people are turning to that party. I think though it is because they are speaking on the issues that the people are interested in, where as the other parties simply skip around them. Even if people don't agree completely on their views on the issues at least they are addressing them. This is maybe what people find so attractive.

Edited due to the fact i was commenting on them speaking our language and then my post was full of mistakes!


[edit on 21-4-2006 by ImaginaryReality1984]



posted on Apr, 21 2006 @ 04:45 AM
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Originally posted by u4ria
not at all, detention centres are there for foreign nationals looking for asylum and the best way to make sure none run off and turn into illegal imigrants.


- Whatever you think they are for the point was there was no mention of detention at all in the claims about 'them' getting new flats etc.


what they should be doing in my opinion fair enough let the home office handle the situation as the system is allready full to the brim but how about a little fairness they could at leas handle it but put them in the same queue as the rest of the people looking for housing in the social housing scheme.


- I think you'll find that is the case in most places, although it does depend enormously on the area in question. The councils are usually forced to use temporary accomodation as and when the need arises.

Despite the occasional exception the 'lot' of most immigrants and asylum seekers is poor quality temporary accomodation and not a brand new house/flat - cos for a start they just don't exist.


so if we are so rich


- There is no "if" about it.
The UK is the world's 4th or 5th (depending on the measurement used and whether or not Italy has had a good year) richest nation in the world.


why arent there enough houses for every 1 in england


- Because since mid 1979 the British people have chosen to elect governments that have gotten rid of what was once a large stock of 'social housing' on an enormous scale (the 'right' to buy ones' council house) and have not (until this government) been interested in any kind of 'social housing' at all.

But even then with this government they can only just fund some provision for 'key wrokers in some cities.
It isn't exactly a return to the days of the government announcing a program to build a million new council houses.
'The people' simply wouldn't fund it.


and why is the NHS so cash straped and everything else that needs money pumping into them


- The NHS has some problems - like all 'health services the world over it probably always will - but it's improvements are undeniable to all but the most blinkered (or those ignorant of the changes and who have either not been near it in years or are too young to know what it used to be like).


yet again its the rich looking after them selves and people who have little or no money being asked to contribute to charity.


- There may be truth in that but the fact still remains that it was 'the people' who voted a tory government on a 'low tax ticket' in for 19yrs and only returned a Labour one if they promised not to raise tax rates.

In those circumstances who could possibly be surprised that social housing is extremely tight?

The fact still stands that 'we' as a nation spend - by far - the bulk of what public spending there is on ourselves.
Our aid budget is tiny (less than 1% of the total spend) and the proportion of our social care budget spent on immigtants and asylum seekers is also very small when compared to the total budget.
That does not seem to me to be exorbitant and pretending that there will ever come a time when all is going so well 'at home' that we will only then be able to help others seems to me to be little more than delusional wishful thinking (or worse, a knowing lie) with the net result that we would end up turning our backs on the world's most needy.

Thankfully the people refuse to make that choice everytime it is put to them.



posted on Apr, 21 2006 @ 05:29 AM
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Originally posted by ImaginaryReality1984
If they come here illegally then throw them straight out without any discussion. If they come in illegally they have broken a law and so that doesn't bode well for their future in this country.


- I don't think so.

Obviously one wants as many of the people coming here to come legally but such an inflexible and blanket approach is unrealistic IMO.

Some people are fleeing places where the circumstances are such that they can never just apply and make a 'legal' bid to emigrate here and their experience with authority in their own countries can lead to them being terrified of making a claim to asylum alone as they arrive.


Doing this would maybe help discourage illegal immigration.


- Or on the other hand it may just lead to a large undeclared immigrant population always trying to evade the authorities.

There's no perfect solution.
No matter what system is used I've yet to hear of the western country that doesn't have it's illegal immigrants, deportations or asylum seekers.


2. They must be able to speak english.


- I would say this is preferable but not essential.

'We' have lots of languages in this country, I don't see why anybodies' stay here should be dependant on speaking English.
How about Welsh, Scot's Gael or Irish Gael speakers who don't speak English, there may not be many of them but are they also to be forced?

It certainly doesn't apply to 'our' people travelling the world.


If you go into a country and don't speak the language then you are almost forcing segregation. Communities form which are isolated and then this causes the problems.


- It sounds like you need to get out into the world a little.

Go to any country anywhere and in the world and see how people behave.
Ex-pat communities (or maybe you prefer 'isolated') do not in themselves "cause problems" because they tend to stick together and support each other but they are a feature of almost every group of foreigners staying in countries not their own.


I am currently looking at other places to live and if i go to a country i will expect them to want me to speak the language of that country.


- That's very noble of you but I do not see why it should bar anyone from travelling and settling in the world where they like.

I prefer the idea of an open world with less barriers, not ridiculous new ones (which tend to ignore the reality........I wonder how many ex-pat British out in a place with a large ex-pat community like, oh say, Singapore speak any of the languages (Mandarin, Malay, Tamil, Hokkien, Cantonese .....there are others) spoken out there hmmmm?


3. They should be educated on British culture. This does not meaning stripping them of their own religion or anything stupid like that.


- I agree an education in the customs and practices of the new host country is a great idea.


They should accept or at least tolerate ours views as we should theirs.


- But this kind of comment worries me.
What exactly are supposed to be "our views"?
There are so many views.


4. They must be able to contribute in some way.


- I can honestly say I have yet to go to any place in the whole of the British
Isles where a contribution from the immigrant communities was not evident and obvious.


They should be offered the chance to train or a job. If they don't stick to it then chuck them out, i think this is more than fair.


- Hardly.
Most maybe can but some people just can't train and work.
I do not think our help to the most damaged and desperate should be conditional on what they can do for us in such a crass manner.

Most of course will be only too happy to contribute once settled, but to make our help totally conditional on that basis strikes me as wholly wrong and immoral.


As for the BNP i dislike them immensly as they are just racists, most of it is hidden but they are.


- Glad to agree.


It is quite scary how many people are turning to that party.


- I am not so sure this is quite as some want to portray it.

Various people have an interest in talking the threat up but I'm not convinced it is any more than usual.

I used to live near to Barking and there always was a notable BNP element there, it's nothing especially new (if it's still there try a visit to the Britannia pub down Loxford way near closing time and se what I mean).


I think though it is because they are speaking on the issues that the people are interested in, where as the other parties simple skip around them. Even if people don't agree completely on their views on the issues at least they are addressing them. This is maybe what people find so attractive.


- We shall see.



posted on Apr, 21 2006 @ 07:22 AM
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Originally posted by sminkeypinkey


2. They must be able to speak english.


- I would say this is preferable but not essential.

'We' have lots of languages in this country, I don't see why anybodies' stay here should be dependant on speaking English.
How about Welsh, Scot's Gael or Irish Gael speakers who don't speak English, there may not be many of them but are they also to be forced?

It certainly doesn't apply to 'our' people travelling the world.



Sorry sminkey, you are dead wrong here, absolutely and utterly. I live in Spain. Regardless of what you think you might know, you can NOT survive here unless you speak CASTILIAN SPANISH, not Catalan, Valenciano or Basque.

The Spanish IMHO have it absolutely dead right too. If I or my family need NHS treatment here in Spain, we go to a doctor who has very often done his training in the UK or the USA, but who will flatly refuse to speak any language other than Spanish. If I am unable to speak it myself I either have to provide my own interpreter at my own expense or suffer.

Guess what, I learned to speak Spanish! It really helps me to be able to speak the language of the country I live in. I strongly recommend it. I didn't pay for lessons, I taught myself.

I think the UK is absolutely stupid to be providing court interpreters and foreign language notices in doctors' surgeries and the many other places, just to help poor Johnny Foreigner feel at home.

Do you know what invariably happens here? Those that, for whatever reason, are unable to learn the language, eventually go back to whence they came.

To learn the language, you have to INTEGRATE, mix with the locals, adopt their customs, accept their way of life and embrace it, NOT set up your own little enclave and live in deliberate, total and permanent isolation as many immigrant communities have been allowed to in the UK.

This is the root of the problem in Britain now. The trendy liberals thought it was so sweet to see the foreign customs coming in and enriching the British way of life. This is all well and good, if the process is mutual, but when outsiders come and inflict their way of life on a host country and expect to be given the freedom to be allowed to do it without giving anything in return, without showing respect and gratitude to their hosts, then that is where liberties are perceived as being taken and resentment starts to build in the indigenous population.

This is why Britain has a problem and Spain doesn't.

It is only a pity the British government isn't listening.

[edit on 21-4-2006 by Englishman_in_Spain]

[edit on 21-4-2006 by Englishman_in_Spain]

[edit on 21-4-2006 by Englishman_in_Spain]

[edit on 21-4-2006 by Englishman_in_Spain]



posted on Apr, 21 2006 @ 07:59 AM
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Originally posted by Englishman_in_Spain
Sorry sminkey, you are dead wrong here, absolutely and utterly.


- I think not.


Regardless of what you think you might know, you can NOT survive here unless you speak CASTILIAN SPANISH, not Catalan, Valenciano or Basque.


- Spin it however you like but an inability to speak Spainish is not a bar to living in Spain.

The "can NOT survive" issue (not the same as 'can't live there and will be thrown out') applies just the same almost anywhere.



posted on Apr, 21 2006 @ 09:05 AM
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Originally posted by sminkeypinkey

Originally posted by Englishman_in_Spain
Sorry sminkey, you are dead wrong here, absolutely and utterly.


- I think not.


Regardless of what you think you might know, you can NOT survive here unless you speak CASTILIAN SPANISH, not Catalan, Valenciano or Basque.


- Spin it however you like but an inability to speak Spainish is not a bar to living in Spain.

The "can NOT survive" issue (not the same as 'can't live there and will be thrown out') applies just the same almost anywhere.



Sorry sminkey, you are talking absolute nonsense.

How long have YOU lived in Spain then that makes you more qualified than I am to comment thus?

I have been here four years, and I will state again, without any fear of contradiction whatsoever by someone qualified to comment, that you can NOT survive indefinitely HERE unless you have a VERY GOOD grasp of the language BOTH ORAL AND WRITTEN, end of story.

Sminkey, you are quite clearly talking about matters about which you know absolutely nothing, which then brings into doubt just about every other comment you care to make. I live here, you don't.



posted on Apr, 21 2006 @ 09:11 AM
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The well known expression "When in Rome" springs to mind. Brilliant post EnglishMan.


Well, IMO many of these immigrants can be extremely intimidating. Many stay unemployed, collect their money, go sit in cafes in groups, binded together by their language. I for one do not like to walk past a big group of, say Iraqis, when by myself and i'm sure many more people who can't defend themselves feel even worse.

The fact is they are not British , they do not share our culture, many do not share our beliefs and i'm sorry to touch on the subject but many do not regret us 'natives' as being equals.. infact many look down and even distance themselves.



[edit on 21-4-2006 by Knights]



posted on Apr, 21 2006 @ 09:16 AM
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The situation in Spain, while related somewhat, is a diversion from the intent of this thread, which is "Britons turning to the extreme right".

Perhaps the situation in Spain warrants a thread all on it's own.

But, please, let's not allow this to become personal in any way. I'm sure there are facts available to bolster the debate on either side.
.



posted on Apr, 21 2006 @ 09:19 AM
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Originally posted by ImaginaryReality1984
If they come here illegally then throw them straight out without any discussion. If they come in illegally they have broken a law and so that doesn't bode well for their future in this country.



Originally Posted by Sminkeypinkey
- I don't think so.

Obviously one wants as many of the people coming here to come legally but such an inflexible and blanket approach is unrealistic IMO.

Some people are fleeing places where the circumstances are such that they can never just apply and make a 'legal' bid to emigrate here and their experience with authority in their own countries can lead to them being terrified of making a claim to asylum alone as they arrive.



Ok maybe i portrayed that a little wrong. Someone comes here for whatever reason and claims asylum, i have no problem with that person. If someone comes and lives illegally, we catch them and then they claim asylum then they should be thrown out. If they have claimed benefit illegally they should deffinately be thrown out.

I would suggest people who are citizens of this country that get benefits when they don't deserve them, should also be thrown out. Sadly i don't think it would be correct to imflict another country with our slackers, maybe harsher punishments for benefit cheats would be good. That's a different issue though.




Originally posted by ImaginaryReality1984

Doing this would maybe help discourage illegal immigration.



Originally posted by sminkeypinkey
- Or on the other hand it may just lead to a large undeclared immigrant population always trying to evade the authorities.

There's no perfect solution.
No matter what system is used I've yet to hear of the western country that doesn't have it's illegal immigrants, deportations or asylum seekers.




Yes i am sure that some people would continue to illegally emigrate here and maybe there would be even more as you said. Let's be clear though i have no trouble with asylum seekers only illegal ones who live hre illegally using our services.






Originally posted by ImaginaryReality1984
2. They must be able to speak english.




Originally posted by Sminkeypinkey
- I would say this is preferable but not essential.

'We' have lots of languages in this country, I don't see why anybodies' stay here should be dependant on speaking English.
How about Welsh, Scot's Gael or Irish Gael speakers who don't speak English, there may not be many of them but are they also to be forced?

It certainly doesn't apply to 'our' people travelling the world.




When i say 'our' people i mean anyone who is a citizen of this country, whether they are an immigrant or not. Yes there are some small native minorities that don't speak english but this will eventually change as there children are around the english language more.

Travelling around the world is a tad different to emigrating somewhere. Due to many immigrants not speaking english they have created small communities full of people speaking their language. Take a look and you will see that these communities slowly become closed to outsiders. Integration into any country is vastly improved by speaking the native language.




Originally posted by ImaginaryReality1984
If you go into a country and don't speak the language then you are almost forcing segregation. Communities form which are isolated and then this causes the problems.



Originally posted by sminkeypinkey
- It sounds like you need to get out into the world a little.

Go to any country anywhere and in the world and see how people behave.
Ex-pat communities (or maybe you prefer 'isolated') do not in themselves "cause problems" because they tend to stick together and support each other but they are a feature of almost every group of foreigners staying in countries not their own.



First off that was incredibly condesending but i will try and not get angry over it. I think communities like that are wrong simply because they do cause problems. I don't know if you have been to Spain but i have talked to english people living out there and they have told me it's caused some problems being in their own communities. Many local people don't like it and i can understand why.

The problems they cause are rarely apparent straight away, it is a growing problem with resentment and i believe that resenment is caused because the people are isolated from the rest of the population.






Originally posted by ImaginaryReality1984
I am currently looking at other places to live and if i go to a country i will expect them to want me to speak the language of that country.



Originally posted by Sminkeypinkey
- That's very noble of you but I do not see why it should bar anyone from travelling and settling in the world where they like.

I prefer the idea of an open world with less barriers, not ridiculous new ones (which tend to ignore the reality........I wonder how many ex-pat British out in a place with a large ex-pat community like, oh say, Singapore speak any of the languages (Mandarin, Malay, Tamil, Hokkien, Cantonese .....there are others) spoken out there hmmmm?



I have no idea how many speak the language. I think it is wrong to move to any country without learning the language that is most widely spoken. It helps integration into the community meaning you can have a greater positive effect on that country.







Originally posted by ImaginaryReality1984
3. They should be educated on British culture. This does not meaning stripping them of their own religion or anything stupid like that.



Originally posted by Sminkeypinkey
- I agree an education in the customs and practices of the new host country is a great idea.



Originally posted by ImaginaryReality1984
They should accept or at least tolerate ours views as we should theirs.




Originally posted by Sminkeypinkey
- But this kind of comment worries me.
What exactly are supposed to be "our views"?
There are so many views.




Worries you why? I have no problem with anyone, i don't hold any racist or anti religous views and this is what i meant. People should be mroe accepting whether they were born in this country or if they recently emmigrated here.

Yes we have a vast array of views but that shouldn't make a difference. If someone has a view you don't like then you should just leave them alone. If the views against the law then that's a different manor as you obviously can't have someone openly spouting racist nonsense. Of course so many things are illegal to say now because of all this over the top political correctness.

Anyway when i say 'our' views i mean the views of the population, and that includes immigrants. Please don't read anything bad into what i said.

I would also like to point out that earlier you said it would be a great idea for them to be taught in the customs and practices of the new host country. This is exactly what i mean! I may have put it in a truly poor way though.






Originally posted by ImaginaryReality1984
4. They must be able to contribute in some way.



Originally posted by Sminkeypinkey
- I can honestly say I have yet to go to any place in the whole of the British
Isles where a contribution from the immigrant communities was not evident and obvious.



Really? So if someone comes into this country and doesn't work, just sits on benefit and does nothing then they are helping us? Some and i will repeat that, some immigrants do that. Now obviously some 'native' ciitizens do that and i already said i am disgusted with those people. The difference is we need to control the type of immigrant we get, some are decent and hard working and others are lay abouts. This is simple fact, people are one way or the other. All i mean is to get quality people into this country who will work to make it better. I don't care what religion of race they are as long as they work hard in whatever profession they choose.

Again as i am thinking of emmigrating i have often come across the fact that every country i have looked at so far wants people who can work once they get there. Not only do i not have a problem with this i am actually glad they want that. It shows they are concerned with the quality of their people and so the quality of the country. They are not concerned with what race you are as long as you are hard working.







Originally posted by ImaginaryReality1984
They should be offered the chance to train or a job. If they don't stick to it then chuck them out, i think this is more than fair.



Originally posted by Sminkeypinkey
- Hardly.
Most maybe can but some people just can't train and work.
I do not think our help to the most damaged and desperate should be conditional on what they can do for us in such a crass manner.

Most of course will be only too happy to contribute once settled, but to make our help totally conditional on that basis strikes me as wholly wrong and immoral.



Maybe you have taken what i said slightly wrong, or maybe i put it badly. I meant giving them the opportunity to work or train and have a placement in whatever they choose ready when they are released from the asylum centres. That way they can go straight into jobs or education. This provides them with a way into our society and culture straight away and they can begin helping our country, or should i say their new country as they would be a brit from that point on.




Originally posted by ImaginaryReality1984
As for the BNP i dislike them immensly as they are just racists, most of it is hidden but they are.



Originally posted by Sminkeypinkey
- Glad to agree.




I knew we would agree somewhere lol.



posted on Apr, 21 2006 @ 10:38 AM
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I've heard about this and I'm glad to say, that Scotland hasn't fell for the right-wing folk as much as our neighbours. They only hold a 1.7% stake up here. Why? I dunno. Perhaps we saw them as they are, basterd shameless oppotuninty seekers. I can still remember the time they came up to Sighthill, to gain supporters after racial disharmony on both sides.
news.bbc.co.uk...
We didn't fall for it though. Racism does exist in Scotland. That's very true, but I think folk mostly see the BNP as scummy folk. Just sometimes folk forget.



posted on Apr, 21 2006 @ 11:02 AM
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Originally posted by Englishman_in_Spain
Sorry sminkey, you are talking absolute nonsense.

How long have YOU lived in Spain then that makes you more qualified than I am to comment thus?

I have been here four years, and I will state again, without any fear of contradiction whatsoever by someone qualified to comment, that you can NOT survive indefinitely HERE unless you have a VERY GOOD grasp of the language BOTH ORAL AND WRITTEN, end of story.


- You are deliberately trying to confuse and cloud the issue.

I am the first to agree that not having the 'native tongue' (anywhere) will make 'indefinite survival' very difficult (even in the UK).

But it is not 'the law' and neither is it a formal condition of residence.

You will not be barred nor ejected from an EU country for not being able to speak the local language.

.......and btw I have friends in Spain who have very very little Spanish who have managed just fine for several years now (more than 4).
K?


============================================================


Originally posted by ImaginaryReality1984
If someone comes and lives illegally, we catch them and then they claim asylum then they should be thrown out. If they have claimed benefit illegally they should deffinately be thrown out......

.....Let's be clear though i have no trouble with asylum seekers only illegal ones who live hre illegally using our services.


- That is an example of the illogical and contradictory nature of this debate generally.

Illegal immigrants by the very nature of their illegal status can't claim benefits.


Take a look and you will see that these communities slowly become closed to outsiders. Integration into any country is vastly improved by speaking the native language.


- That's not what I see, perhaps in small towns this 'closing' is more likely but not in the cities, quite the opposite in fact the cities are more cosmopolitan than ever.

I agree language helps but I would not make it a condition of residence.


First off that was incredibly condesending but i will try and not get angry over it.


- I'm sorry you took it that way, I thought it a fair comment if you really believed what you originally said.


I think communities like that are wrong simply because they do cause problems. I don't know if you have been to Spain but i have talked to english people living out there and they have told me it's caused some problems being in their own communities. Many local people don't like it and i can understand why.


- The point isn't that ex-pat communities are a problem, the point is that indigenous people are sometimes going to be suspicious and possibly resentful.
That is the problem.

Artificial concepts of a more complete integration may have their appeal (and may even help a little in some cases) but they are not a complete answer to this, IMO they only appear so to those whos' situation is different.

France for example has always insisted their people are all French first and foremost, fully integrated.
That has not stopped separation, exclusion, ghetto-isation and resentment (as was seen so recently).


I think it is wrong to move to any country without learning the language that is most widely spoken.


- The world would be a lot worse off if this was ever the 'law'.

The aim should be a freer world not one deciding to impose ever more restrictions we have managed perfectly well without.

......and considering the long (centuries old) history of Europeans tramping all around and talking over vast tracts of the world and it's resources it's also a tad rich IMO to be complaining about short-term 'flows' of people from trouble-spots (which are often trouble-spots in large part because of the actions of 'the west') .


It helps integration into the community meaning you can have a greater positive effect on that country.


- ......and what about those doing 10 - 20yrs work abroad who have no great interest in this integration, why on earth must they?


Worries you why?


- Because it is often code for imposing a set of reactionary out-dated and 'not actually so typical' values even the bulk of the indigenous people don't hold anymore.


Yes we have a vast array of views but that shouldn't make a difference.


- Well it surely does when someone says something as sweeping as 'they should accept our views', hmmmmm?


Of course so many things are illegal to say now because of all this over the top political correctness.


- Besides stirring up trouble and inciting people to break the law what is this "so much" you believe you can't say?


Really?


- Actually I missed a little of what I meant their in the edit.

I meant in any town (or larger city.)


So if someone comes into this country and doesn't work, just sits on benefit and does nothing then they are helping us? Some and i will repeat that, some immigrants do that.


- Some may well do for a while until they get on their feet, such is life.

But if they are here legally and they qualify and are eligible for benefit under the rules as they stand, then ok, as with most people they are unlikely to be on the books for very long and likely to contribute like the majority anywhere.


some are decent and hard working and others are lay abouts. This is simple fact, people are one way or the other. All i mean is to get quality people into this country who will work to make it better. I don't care what religion of race they are as long as they work hard in whatever profession they choose.


- I don't know where you get this idea from but benefits aren't that easy to obtain in the UK anymore and a the idea that there is a vast army of immigrants spending their lifetime on them is pure fiction.


They are not concerned with what race you are as long as you are hard working.


- Yeah well as we already said, right up until you (naturally enough......as happens with every ex-pat community from all culture the world over) meet up with and socialise with some ex-pat fellow Britons and they begin to resent you as different.
Enjoy.


I knew we would agree somewhere


-

It would be a bit weird if we couldn't find a thing to agree upon.

But Masqua's point is well made, this is all just becoming a silly diversion from the original speculation about "large numbers" of Britons "turning to the extreme right".

We shall see when the results are in just how many and what % of the thousands of council seats coming up for election go to the "extreme right".


[edit on 21-4-2006 by sminkeypinkey]



posted on Apr, 21 2006 @ 01:52 PM
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Originally posted by ImaginaryReality1984
[ I don't know if you have been to Spain but i have talked to english people living out there and they have told me it's caused some problems being in their own communities. Many local people don't like it and i can understand why.


NOTE FOR MODS; this is why I mentioned Spain and how it came to be involved in this thread. Living there, I can speak specifically of an exemple of what happens when immigrants to a country are DELIBERATELY COERCED by the host country into learning its language. This policy is entirely right, speak our language or go away until you can!

As this post says, British immigrants in Spain have indeed set up their own 'little Britain' communities, and they are invariably sad places, populated by and large by the sort of one dimensional caricature characters most of us love to mock when on holiday.

These locations are widely known, and the Spanish steer well clear of them, because they are generally the sort of places you would not choose to go no matter how desperate you were for a night out.

The joy of living in Spain is actually to live in a predominantly Spanish area, to live with, in and amongst these wonderful people, and see just how much they can teach us.

It is true to say that, by taking over certain areas and creating British ghettos, resentment is caused to the natives here, but the people responsible are generally of too limited intellect to realise the offence they cause.

Having lived here now for four years, I can see for myself how offensive it is to the Spanish when they see 'English butchers', 'English barbers', 'English cinema'. It is as though their own butchers, barbers etc aren't good enough and the hosts are indeed hurt and offended by this.

I was once on the other side, and I know how much Britons in general were enraged to see Halal butchers and other specialist immigrant trades setting up in our inner cities in the 1970s, I know it used to annoy me as a young lad. It was not that I didn't want these people in my country, far from it, but what I really resented, and still do, is the fact that these people want to come into my country and turn it into a corner of their own homeland, ignoring the fact that they are in Britain.

The key to all this is integration, as I have already said.

If the majority of immigrants made the effort to acknowledge that they are welcomed guests, and showed a willingness to benefit ALL communities, not just their own, then this would not even be an issue for all but the most extreme bigots and we would not be having this discussion now.

I once had a very good friend who said to me;
'I am not like these other Asians you know. I am from a foreign country, I am grateful for Britain giving me a second chance and I am determined my family will pay my debt back to this country.' He was a Ugandan Asian. He had a humble job in a bank, was never going to set the world alight, but on very limited means he sent his four children to university. One is now a doctor, one a pharmacist and the other two are research scientists.

What was the secret of their success? Integration! I thank you.

PS sminkey, I have no axe to grind with you personally, but it is not true that your 'friends' would be able to manage here with only a small knowledge of the language. The country is specifically geared up to conduct ALL official business in Castilian Spanish, occasionally allowing local dialects official status. Your friends will, no ifs, no buts, simply not have managed to obtain; residencia, SIP cards, NIEs, water, electricity, a phone or anything at all unless either they can speak fluent Spanish or they take an interpreter with them (unless of course they are illegal immigrants!). This is not even open to debate. It is a fact.



[edit on 21-4-2006 by Englishman_in_Spain]

[edit on 21-4-2006 by Englishman_in_Spain]

[edit on 21-4-2006 by Englishman_in_Spain]



posted on Apr, 21 2006 @ 02:24 PM
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Originally posted by Englishman_in_Spain
Your friends will, no ifs, no buts, simply not have managed to obtain; residencia, SIP cards, NIEs, water, electricity, a phone or anything at all unless either they can speak fluent Spanish or they take an interpreter with them


- .....and there we have it, the admission that whatever difficulties might otherwise arise, speaking Spanish is not a legal requirement to living in Spain, finally.



posted on Apr, 21 2006 @ 02:44 PM
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sminkey, this is what I have been saying all along if you would care to read my posts. My stance has not changed one iota. To intregrate you need to speak the language. QED. I know this from experience, you clearly do not but think you know better for some unfathomable reason.

Certainly I did not say it was a LEGAL requirement, what rank nonsense.

You can not plan to have a paid interpreter with you at 2am when you have a medical emergency and the doctors only speak Spanish, as has actually happened to my family. Had I not spoken Spanish we would have been in very serious difficulty indeed.

You continue to show your ignorance by involving yourself in a debate about which you palpably know nothing at all. This is not being personally abusive, I merely know what I am talking about, and you, never having lived in this country, clearly do not.

I rest my case.

[edit on 21-4-2006 by Englishman_in_Spain]





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