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Age of Universe -- answer from ancient generations

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posted on Apr, 15 2006 @ 05:26 PM
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I dont know where to put this thread. Since it is related to age of universe, I am posting in this forum. Sorry if I made a mistake.

So I wrote a blog on the age of universe

According to modern science, there are two theories:
a. The Steady State theory, which says the universe is never born, never dies, and is always like what it is.
b. The Big bang theory, which says the universe began with a point of energy exploding in a "big-bang".

Since the universe is expanding and evolving, 1st theory is not 100% correct automatically. Bigbang theory says that the current age of universe is 11-20 billion years. But according to new observations, i.e. clusters of galaxies, super-clusters, Great Wall (Tully's complexes), it is quite evident that our universe is much much older than that. Lots of cosmologist maintain that big-bang theory is not correct although it is most widely accepted. In short, modern man is not aware of forces and science which are needed to expain the creation of universe.

Lets look at vedic science and what it says. Right now I am quoting only what it says:
a. Total age of universe is 311.04 trillion years (human years).
b. Current age is around 157.492944 trillion years.

How it is calculated:
-> There are 4 ages on earth which keeps circulating:
Satya Yuga - 1.728 million years
Treta Yuga - 1.296 million years
Dwapara Yuga - 0.864 million years
Kali Yuga - 0.432 million years

Total: 4.32 million human years.

-> This yuga cycle is called maha (in english, it means great/big) or divya (divine) yuga. One thousand such cycles forms one day of Brahma (a demigod in hindu religion which governs the universe). So one day of Brahma is 4.32 million * 1000 = 4.32 billion human years. Each such day of Brahma is called a "kalpa". His night also constitutes 4.32 billion human years. During his day, life exists in universe. In nighttime, no form of life exists. So one complete day and night has 8.64 billion human years.

-> Age of Brahma is 100 years. Each year of Brahma has 360 days and same number of nights. Thus, total age of Brahma is 360 * 100 * 8.64 billion = 311,040 billion human years. i.e. 311.04 trillion years. This period is called "maha kalpa".

-> The life span of the universe is one "maha kalpa". i.e. 311.04 trillion human years. This time span is also the duration of one breath of "Vishnu" (the ultimate god in hindu religion). When he exhales, thousands of universes emerges and one "Brahma" is born in each universe. When "Vishnu" inhales, all universes get sucked and Brahma dies.

-> This cycle is non-ending and eternal. Thats why "Vishnu" is considered eternal in Vedic Science (or religion).

How much old is our universe:

-> In 100 years of Brahma's life, there are 14 "manvantara". Each "manvantara" is divided into 71 "maha-yuga" cycles (4.32 million human years or 1 brahma day). So total make 14*71 = 994 brahma days.

-> Remaining days are used to fill gaps between manvantara. Before and after each manvantara (called as "sandhya" and "sandhyamsa" respectively), there is a junction of 1.728 million (age of Satya Yuga, or 0.4 brahma day) human years. Total number of junctions are 15 (since there are 14 manvantaras). So total gap period is = 0.4 * 15 = 6 brahma days. Hence total makes 1000 brahma days.

-> According to the Vedic texts, current age of Brahma is 50 Brahma years and 1 brahma day (we are in the 1st day of 2nd half of brahma)and we are in the seventh "manvantara", in the 28th turnover of its 71 yuga cycles. In this cycle, we are in the start Kali Yuga. Age of kali yuga is not known perfectly but it is around 5000-10000 years. For calculation, lets assume 8000 human years.

-> So current age of our universe (in terms of Brahma days) =
(50 * 720) -- 50 years * (360 days + 360 nights)
+ (6 * 71) -- 6 manvantara each of 71 brahma days
+ (7 * 0.4) -- 7 junctions or gaps for 6 manvantara
+ (27 * 1) -- we are in 28th cycle of 71. Each cycle is one day of brahma
+ (0.4+0.3+0.2) -- In this cycle, we are in Kali Yuga. Satya Yuga, Treta Yuga and Dwapara yuga are 0.4, 0.3 and 0.2 brahma days respectively.
+ around 8000 human years -- very small, so ignoring it.

Thus, total age = 36456.7 Brahma days = 36456.7 * 4.32 million = 157492.944 million human years = 157.492944 trillion human years. Now add the age of kaliyuga. i.e. around 8000 human years. If we can calculate the exact age of kaliyuga, we can know the exact age of universe.

How ancient Indians (or Vedic people, more precisely) come up with these numbers, I dont have a clue but can it help in understanding universe and its creation?

[edit on 15-4-2006 by amitgoyal]




posted on Apr, 27 2006 @ 07:39 PM
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Yeah i've read that before, it's pretty interesting. I too would like to know where they came up with these things.



posted on Apr, 27 2006 @ 07:46 PM
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The short answer is that they're holy, or sacred numbers. They were not taken from any measuements.



posted on Apr, 28 2006 @ 12:48 PM
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Originally posted by amitgoyal
How it is calculated:
-> There are 4 ages on earth which keeps circulating:
Satya Yuga - 1.728 million years
Treta Yuga - 1.296 million years
Dwapara Yuga - 0.864 million years
Kali Yuga - 0.432 million years


What does any of that matter, since its baseless mumbo-jumbo? No more science than counting the age of patriarchs in the bible and figuring that the earth is 4 thousand years old.


but can it help in understanding universe and its creation?

No. Its faith based information, IE, irrational nonesense.

edit to add:
I put a comment in your blog, it looks like a nice blog!


[edit on 28-4-2006 by Nygdan]



posted on Apr, 28 2006 @ 12:56 PM
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What's interesting is the idea that a "Day" of 'God' is 4.32 million years after which every thing is swept up from the bottom lower planes and everything supposedly get's recreated and begins again on the next 'Day'

My hope is that the Fizzies fad last much longer next time.



posted on Apr, 29 2006 @ 11:32 AM
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Originally posted by StarLord
What's interesting is the idea that a "Day" of 'God' is 4.32 million years after which every thing is swept up from the bottom lower planes and everything supposedly get's recreated and begins again on the next 'Day'
My hope is that the Fizzies fad last much longer next time.


I'm hoping "Frank's Place" stays on the air longer next time!

Harte



posted on May, 2 2006 @ 04:24 AM
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No, its not baseless information. To know how they came up with these things, first we need to understand their motive and ways of developing science. Obviously the motive was not to make the life easier. Also scientific community was not open compared to our generation. One important thing, they had 6 dimensions (compared to 4 dimensions we know), 3 space, 1 time and two others. Sages (scientists of that age) use to meditate in different dimensions. Unless we rediscover all the dimensions, it is difficult to understand their ways of developing science.

But considering that vedic generations had nuclear weapons, airplanes, they knew the distances b/w various astronomical bodies; Infact, they have documented a large part of human evolution which is very similar to Darwins theory of evolution, it is difficult to discard the other information (such as age of universe) right away.



posted on May, 2 2006 @ 05:37 AM
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Originally posted by StarLord
What's interesting is the idea that a "Day" of 'God' is 4.32 million years after which every thing is swept up from the bottom lower planes and everything supposedly get's recreated and begins again on the next 'Day'

My hope is that the Fizzies fad last much longer next time.


One day of "brahma" is 4.32 billion years (known as "kalpa") not 4.32 million years.

grrr, I made some calculation mistakes in my post, the correct calculations are on my blog. I am not able to edit the original post
So writing the current age calculation part again.

-> Current age is around 155.521972944 trillion years.

here are the correct calculations (hopefully
)

-> Note that the period of Satya Yuga is 0.4x, Treta Yuga is 0.3x, Dwapara Yuga is 0.2x and Kali Yuga is 0.1x where x is the time-span of one maha-yuga cycle. I will use 'x' as 1 maha-yuga cycle subsequently.

-> In 1 day of Brahma, there are 14 "manvantara". Each "manvantara" is divided into 71 "maha-yuga" cycles. So total make 14*71 = 994x (mahayuga cycles).

-> Remaining cycles (1 day of Brahma contains 1000 maha-yuga cycles) are used to fill gaps between manvantara. Before and after each manvantara (called as "sandhya" and "sandhyamsa" respectively), there is a junction of 1.728 million (age of Satya Yuga, or 0.4x) human years. Total number of junctions are 15 (since there are 14 manvantaras). So total gap period is = 0.4 * 15 = 6x. Hence total makes 1000 maha-yuga cycles or 1 brahma day.

-> According to the Vedic texts, current age of Brahma is 50 Brahma years and 1 brahma day (we are in the 1st day of 2nd half of brahma)and we are in the seventh "manvantara", in the 28th turnover of its 71 yuga cycles. In this cycle, we are in the start Kali Yuga. Age of kali yuga is not known perfectly but it is around 5000-10000 years. For calculation, lets assume 8000 human years.

-> So current age of our universe (in terms of maha-yuga cycles) =
(50 * 720 * 1000) -- 50 years * (360 days + 360 nights) * total no. of cycles in one day/night
+ (6 * 71) -- 6 manvantara each of 71 maha-yuga cycle
+ (7 * 0.4) -- 7 junctions or gaps for 6 manvantara
+ (27 * 1) -- we are in 28th cycle of 71.
+ (0.4+0.3+0.2) -- In this cycle, we are in Kali Yuga. Satya Yuga, Treat Yuga and Dwapara yuga are 0.4x, 0.3x and 0.2x respectively.
+ around 8000 human years -- very small, so ignoring it.

Thus total age = (36,000,000 + 456.7)x = 36,000,456.7 * 4.32 million = 155,521,972.944 million years = 155.521972944 trillion human years.



posted on May, 2 2006 @ 03:26 PM
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Originally posted by amitgoyal
But considering that vedic generations had nuclear weapons, airplanes

They had none of these things, their technology was not anywhere near sophisticated or advanced enough to approach these things. Vedic understanding of the basis of nature was more along the lines of 'earht, wind, fire', rather than, say, "Atomic" (in the classical sense even)

Infact, they have documented a large part of human evolution which is very similar to Darwins theory of evolution

I have not heard this arguement before, it would be intersting to see the information. However, I suspect that they noted that forms of organisms change, or perhaps beleived that 'parts' of organisms tried to fit together in the past, until the 'workable' combinations that we see today came about. That is a classical greek idea also. Its actually rather far removed from darwinian understanding of biology.


it is difficult to discard the other information (such as age of universe) right away.

Its based upon beleif and sacred texts. There's no reason to beleive any of it.


I don't know why you are bothering to mess around with those calculations of hte ages. You are arbitrarily setting the length of a 'mystic day' to some value and then applying that to what the religious faith based texsts say about how many days, years, ages, etc, there have been.
This is very much like counting the number of patriarchs in the bible, applying the average age to each, and then saying that the universe came into existence in 4004 BC on a Tuesday in May. Its baseless.



posted on May, 2 2006 @ 05:56 PM
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Originally posted by amitgoyal
To know how they came up with these things, first we need to understand their motive and ways of developing science. Obviously the motive was not to make the life easier. Also scientific community was not open compared to our generation.


Look, if you are right and their own generation (during Vedantic times) knew nothing of whatever science the sages were developing, I defy you any chance of making a substantiated claim regarding these teachings. You just added a few thousand years of obscurity to the incredible obscurity you already underscored.



One important thing, they had 6 dimensions (compared to 4 dimensions we know), 3 space, 1 time and two others. Sages (scientists of that age) use to meditate in different dimensions.


That's a completely arbitrary statement. What if the sages, in the spirit of secrecy, mislead the public and in fact there were only 3 dimensions?



But considering that vedic generations had nuclear weapons, airplanes, they knew the distances b/w various astronomical bodies; Infact, they have documented a large part of human evolution which is very similar to Darwins theory of evolution, it is difficult to discard the other information (such as age of universe) right away.


You see, as opposed to speculations about what vedic sages had or didn't have, I know with precision that our civilization already has nukes, astronomy and theory of human evolution, and it has its own measure of the age of the Universe as well. And it has nothing to do with mystical categories somebody tries to extract from some sacred text.

Here, let me borrow from the thread about the Bosnian pyramide and expand my own mystical theories: I hereby claim that the age of the Universe is equal to the price of gasoline on May 1st, 2006, times the number of participants of the "Day without immigrants" demonstrations, divided by the age of mother-in-law of the Bosnian president on that day and multiplied by the exact distance between the Moon and the Sun on the day Bill Clinton met Monica Lewinsky.




[edit on 2-5-2006 by Aelita]



posted on May, 2 2006 @ 06:07 PM
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I suspect that time "speeds up" as you approach the outer edge of the universe, so that one second of our current time would be more like a few hundred millions years. That's gonna throw the calculatons off quite a bit.



posted on May, 13 2006 @ 12:18 AM
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The canard that Vedic India had nuclear power, aircraft, etc., is supported by reinterpreting tales of the miraculous acts and powers of supernatural beings found in the Vedas and other Indian myths and legends in terms of modern technology.

For example, a story in the Ramayana referring to the flying chariot of Ravana is offered as evidence of ancient aviation technology. It's all a bit similar to people who regard Isiah's chariot as an alien earth-landing module or the flying wheels in Ezekiel as alien spacecraft.

India, with its wealth of classical literature and ancient folk tales, is particularly fertile ground for this kind of revisionist mythmaking. It finds wide acceptance because it conjures up visions of a past in which India was more scientifically and technologically advanced than the West is now. Such ideas pander to a conservative nationalism of a very simple-minded sort. They help to assuage the historical humiliation of being overcome and colonized by all those white barbarians.

I should add that the same ideas are quite common in other South Asian countries -- and indeed, anywhere within the Greater Indian cultural ambit. As in the West, they are frequently associated with ethnic or cultural supremacism. Unlike in the West, they tend to get a relatively easy ride from the scientific and intellectual establishments of these countries because to oppose them is thought 'unpatriotic'. In some countries (not India) they even acquire state approval and support; recently a Sri Lankan university professor has been claiming that the pyramids of Egypt were built by ancient, spacefaring members of that country's dominant ethnic group, the Sinhalese. His 'work' is state-funded and has received sympathetic coverage in the national press.

[edit on 13-5-2006 by Astyanax]

[edit on 13-5-2006 by Astyanax]



posted on May, 14 2006 @ 09:40 AM
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To support my argument, I have done more research into the vedic texts and found amazing things, e.g. speed of light, shape and size of universe. I wrote a blog on my new findings Speed of light in Vedic Science

The speed of light according to modern age scientists is 299,792,458 m/sec or 186,282.397 miles/sec

If we look at the fourth verse of the hymn 1.50 of Rigveda (note that it is more than atleast 5000 years old),
"[oh sun] you who traverse 2,202 yojanas in half a nimesa"

Nimesa is unit of time and yojana is a unit of distance. The exact conversions of vedic and modern units are still debatable, rough conversions are available.

15 nimesa = 1 kastha
30 kastha = 1 kala
30 kala = 1 muhurta
30 muhurta = 1 day and night

Note that the time of 1 day and night in vedic time differs slightly from our day and time of exact 24 hrs (They did not leap years). But for rough figures, we can equate it to 24 hrs. Thus 1 nimesa =~ 16/75 sec.


Similarly for yojana,
1 yojana = 8000 dhanu
1 dhanu = 8000 angulas (fingers)
1 dhanu = height of a person =~ 6 feet approx
thus 1 yojana is believed to be approx 9 miles.

thus speed of light = 2202 * 2 yojanas/nimesa
=> 4404 * 9 * 75 miles / 16 sec
=> 185793.75 miles/sec

This figure is very close to the figure we know today. If we can calculate the exact conversion of units, I believe the speed of light will come out the exact value we know today.
i.e. 1 yojana/nimesa =~ 42.3 miles/sec =~ 68072.765 met/sec

Also, according to vedic texts, light does not move in a straight line. Infact the distance move by light in one day (one day of vedic time) is equal to the longest path spanned by light in the universe. The shape of the universe is egg shaped (brahmanda = brahma+anda; anda means egg). Thus, approximating the egg to sphere, diameter of universe =~ (4404 * 15 * 30 * 30 * 30 yojanas) / 3.14
=~> 568031847.134 yojanas

In Srimada Bhagwata 5.20.38, (it is derived from Vedas at the start of Kaliyuga to make the Vedas easier to understand), the diameter of the universe is quoted as 500,000,000 yojanas.

Yes, according to Vedic texts, the universe is not expanding.



posted on May, 14 2006 @ 10:17 AM
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Ok, then tell me how will you explain the Bridge (known as Adams Bridge) discovered b/w India and Sri Lanka (Acc. to Ramayana, the bridge was made by Ram)?
How will you explain the Dwarika Nagari discovered recently (Acc. to Mahabharata, it was flooded by ocean at the start of Kaliyuga, around 5000 years ago).
How will you explain the discovery of Saraswati River recently (it was mentioned many times in vedas and mahabharata)?
How will you explain the things like speed of light, advance mathematics, advance astronomy, human evolution theory, which matches the current theories closely (infact in the age of Ramayana, humans and apes lived together, time: around 2 million years ago).
How will you explain the language Sanskrit. According to various scientists and linguistics across the world, Sanskrit is the most scientific language.
And you are saying that they are mere myth and co-incidences. So many coincidences ... sorry it is difficult to accept that.

-Amit
ps1. According to Vedic Texts, people in Kaliyug will be fools. No wonder

ps2. This forum is for space exploration, I didnt want to dilute the purpose of the forum. Sorry for that.



posted on May, 15 2006 @ 06:39 AM
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Originally posted by amitgoyal
Ok, then tell me how will you explain the Bridge (known as Adams Bridge)...

Have you ever seen it? It's nothing but an area where the sea is very shallow. The sea bottom was exposed when ocean levels dropped during the ice ages, forming a 'bridge' between India and Lanka. It is now submerged again. It's a collection of sandbars and islets; hardly a bridge.


How will you explain the Dwarika Nagari... of Saraswati River recently?

I don't know about these specific instances. But look, Amit: I'm not suggesting that everything mentioned in the Mahabharata, the Vedas and so on is false. Like most ancient texts, these works were created by people whose worldview included beliefs and ideas we now know to be incorrect, as well as much that was true. There is no fixed line in them between objective and subjective 'truth'. Also, you must remember that most of these ancient tales are works of political or religious propaganda, in which deliberate falsehoods or distortions are introduced to add weight to the cause promoted.


How will you explain the things like speed of light, advance mathematics, advance astronomy, human evolution theory...

Oh, you can juggle figures to make them lend credence to any old crackpot idea. Have you ever dipped your toe into the so-called mysteries of the Great Pyramid? Or the Kabbalah? As Churchill said, there are lies, damned lies...and statistics.


According to various scientists and linguistics across the world, Sanskrit is the most scientific language.

Meaning what, exactly? What makes one language more 'scientific' than another? And even if this extraordinary claim were true, what would it prove?


You are saying that they are mere myth and co-incidences.

Nope. I'm saying that you're reading your own favoured inferences into statements that originally referred to something very different.


According to Vedic Texts, people in Kaliyug will be fools.

Also according to the Vedic texts, sudras in the Kali Yug will try to become philosophers. You see a bit of that on ATS from time to time.



posted on May, 15 2006 @ 10:41 AM
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Originally posted by amitgoyal


If we look at the fourth verse of the hymn 1.50 of Rigveda (note that it is more than atleast 5000 years old),
"[oh sun] you who traverse in half a nimesa"

I have seen this argument on ATS before. You might like to search the board, you will find lots of stuff that I bet you are very interested in.
This thread in particular. (its an old thread, so the conversation would be good to carry on here).


I think that the biggest problem is still that the sun doesn't travel at the speed of light, and if the text is so advanced, why it is refereing to the sun as a word for 'light', when the sun is just one out of many trillions of stars that generate light. Its as if the authors were only aware of the sun as being the source of light.


rough conversions are available.

It seems like that is a real problem then. If the conversions and units aren't precise and concrete, then the light speed calculation is meaningless, no?


then tell me how will you explain the Bridge

Its not a bridge.

the discovery of Saraswati River recently

The Saraswati hasn't been discovered, some people have postulated that it had a particular course. I beleive that some are talking about daming other rivers in order to 're-wet' the old riverbed no?
SOme have suggested that teh Saraswati wasn't even in india or pakistan, and that it and Ram are from Afghanistan.
Also, did anyone expect that the saraswati never existed anyway? I mean, its a river.


Dwarika Nagari discovered recently

Is this the temple that was exposed after the tsunami?

Why couldn't the vedic texts be correct about these things? That doesn't mean it contains advanced knowledge.


This forum is for space exploration, I didnt want to dilute the purpose of the forum. Sorry for that

Meh, its about knowledge about space, seems good enough to me.


How will you explain the language Sanskrit. According to various scientists and linguistics across the world, Sanskrit is the most scientific language.

Its not. Why do you think it is?


How will you explain the things like speed of light, advance mathematics, advance astronomy, human evolution theory, which matches the current theories closely

The problem is that none of these things are in these texts.

The major problem with this general concept is that its largely based on misinterpretations and extrapolations of the texts themselves, of taking current scientific knowledge, and trying to make the statements in teh vedic texts as meaning them. People do the exact same thing with the bible, they take scientific knowledge and say 'see this portion of the bible, its really a reference to that scientific idea'.


d1k

posted on May, 15 2006 @ 11:52 AM
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Why would you guys say the OP's post is "mumbo jumbo" when our science can be identified the same way. Just because we look at the stars with telescopes and make guessimations not really having a clue what we're talking about does not mean this older lore the OP is talking about is any less credible.

Also, telling him to "prove it" and saying how could people back then possibly know anything like that. How do you guys know they didn't? You prove that they didn't know!

Our "science" changes almost every single day as we observe things that change what we previously believed. Our "science" is not much of a science at all it's more like a theory in progress and that does not make it better or more correct then any other theory.

The real simple answer is, could be.

[edit on 15-5-2006 by d1k]



posted on May, 15 2006 @ 12:16 PM
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Originally posted by d1k
does not mean this older lore the OP is talking about is any less credible.

What makes the OP's ideas less credible is that they simply don't pan out. The alleged information isn't really in these texts, its just being interpreted into them.


How do you guys know they didn't?

Ignoring the issue of translation and interpretation, there is no physical evidence of any of the advanced technology that would be required to get at the alleged information, nor the advances that would come about from having hte information.

There is also nothing indicating that the people at the time had a scientific mode of thought or method of investigation in order to get at this information.


Our "science" is not much of a science at all it's more like a theory in progress

...

That is what science is.


The real simple answer is, could be.

The full answer is, "could be, nothing seems to suggest it though".



posted on May, 15 2006 @ 12:16 PM
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Originally posted by d1k
Why would you guys say the OP's post is "mumbo jumbo" when our science can be identified the same way.


No it can't. When we introduce arbitrary jargon, such as all these definitions of eras in Indian philosophy, it's not science yet. Science is tested by the fact.



Just because we look at the stars with telescopes and make guessimations not really having a clue what we're talking about does not mean this older lore the OP is talking about is any less credible.


When we look at stars, we oftentimes gather some incredible data and insight into how the Universe is operating. If you "don't have a clue", please speak for yourself and not for people who work hard to advance our understanding of astrophysics.



Also, telling him to "prove it" and saying how could people back then possibly know anything like that. How do you guys know they didn't? You prove that they didn't know!


Look, just a few minutes ago I received a subliminal message from an alien overlord named Zudu, who is floating in molten magma under the Hymalayas, in the state of deep meditation. The message clearly states that the age of Universe is 19,030,056,121 years. How do you prove that I (pardon, alien Zudu) am wrong?
How's that for an argument?



Our "science" changes almost every single day as we observe things that change what we previously believed. Our "science" is not much of a science at all it's more like a theory in progress and that does not make it better or more correct then any other theory.


Oh my God, what a load of BS. Our science tests the range of applicability of the theories it's using, and when needed, comes up with new theories which typically integrate older ones as limiting cases.

The classical mecahnics still works, as does classical electrodynamics. Sometimes we have to use the newer theories of relaitivity, quantum mechanics etc etc etc, which doesn't really negate the previous knowledge.

You have the nerve to put the word science in double quotes as if it's some kind of a false teaching or a cult, and yet, you are using the personal computer which was built using some very real and very true knowledge which scientists harvested for you over the millenia. Same applies to your car, your microwave and toothpaste.

Sorry, but I find your words in that regard quite silly, at best.


d1k

posted on May, 15 2006 @ 01:44 PM
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Originally posted by Aelita
Oh my God, what a load of BS. Our science tests the range of applicability of the theories it's using, and when needed, comes up with new theories which typically integrate older ones as limiting cases.


You argue yet say pretty much the same thing I did in the end.

You may call it/me silly, I'd say I'm keeping it real. Truth is mankind is just scratching the surface of the knowledge that is to be learned and it's seriously ignorant of us to say that any other theories are hogwash because we have our science that tells us other wise. I think of the big pictures as a jig saw puzzle. We can observe/poke/prod the pieces that we have but it does not tell us the whole story nor do we even really know what we are looking at when we have these pieces. If we find yet another jig saw piece that connects to what we already have it can (and has) drastically changed what we perceived we knew. This is not just my opinion either, these exact same opinions are shared by some of the worlds greatest minds.

I'm sorry this upsets you but in reality we're all just toddlers (if even that) when it comes to knowledge of our universe and the goings on. So who's to say there was not ancient civilizations that somehow someway gained some information like the OP said?

You're just being extremely closed minded.

[edit on 15-5-2006 by d1k]




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