Q. How do you make 3 out of 2?

R/F, your explanation would do Jesuits proud! Which still does not make 2 equal 3.

Except for the initiate. Who in reality don’t care a whit. Their mantra is Jesus was crucified on Friday, and rose from the dead on Sunday, thus fulfilling the prophecy he would be 3 days in the grave. Wow! For Trinitarians that is no big leap?

I assume the writers of the Gospels knew of the Hebrew system of counting the passage of time. Well, at least the writer of Matthew. Maybe Luke. Maybe not Mark. John was written by a committee around 105-120 AD.

But, plainly, you can see how hard it is to explain in 2006 and we have Cray computers to help us! No wonder this is called a “Mystery.”


[edit on 4/17/2006 by donwhite]

The Pharisees didn't like Jesus because He threatened their power, in a nutshell. They had some influence in the Roman government if I remember right. Basically they were on a power trip.

Why crucifixion and not stoning? For one thing His blood had to be shed (though granted I'm sure He would have bled were He stoned). Then you have to take the Old Testament prophecies into account--not a bone would be broken, had to be lifted up, etc.

If you look at Matthew 12:40, Jesus Himself said He would be in the heart of the earth THREE DAYS AND THREE NIGHTS. Friday to Sunday doesn't cut it there.

What most people don't realize was that there was a high holy day that week--so in addition to the weekly Saturday sabbath, there was the high holy day sabbath. The day after Passover was the First Day Unleavened Bread, which was a high holy day--no work. See Leviticus 16.

Jesus was crucified on a Wednesday. Because the next day was a high holy day, the people being crucified had to hurry up and die, which was why the soldier broke the legs of the two thieves on the tree with Him--to speed up their deaths. Wednesday was the preparation day for the sabbath the next day--people confuse that with Friday. (Note--there were not three crosses. There were three men--Jesus and the two thieves--on the same tree, each being held there by his own crossbar. Why would the soldiers go to the thief on the left, then the one on the right of Jesus, and skip over Him? That's what would have happened were He between them.)

Jesus died around 3 pm on a Wednesday and was buried. Three days and three nights brings us to Saturday, probably a little after 3 pm. Remember Saturday was the Sabbath so no one went to the tomb, which was found empty BEFORE SUNRISE on Sunday. See, it was FOUND empty on Sunday!

So it was Wednesday to Saturday, not Friday to Sunday.

posted by Amethyst: “If you look at Matthew 12:40, Jesus said He would be in the heart of the earth 3 DAYS and 3 NIGHTS. Friday to Sunday doesn't cut it there.

My point exactly, Amethyst.

What most people don't realize was that there was a high holy day that week - so in addition to the weekly Saturday Sabbath, there was the high holy day Sabbath.

Are you saying there were TWO Sabbaths that week? I can’t recall hearing this argument. Why has that [2 Sabbaths] not been mentioned before?

The day after Passover was the First Day Unleavened Bread, which was a high holy day - no work. Leviticus 16. Jesus was crucified on a Wednesday.

An earlier poster had Jesus being crucified on Thursday, but now Amethyst, you are moving it up yet another day, to Wednesday! Wow!

Because the next day was a high holy day, the people being crucified had to hurry up and die, which was why the soldier broke the legs of the two thieves on the tree with Him - to speed up their deaths.

Amethyst, again, despite opinions to the contrary posted here, I cannot (easily) accept the proposition the Romans were in any way desultory to the customs of the Jewish people. Next you’ll be telling me before assignment to Judea, the Roman soldiers were circumcised.

Why would the soldiers go to the thief on the left, then the one on the right of Jesus, and skip over Him? That's what would have happened were He between them.

Sorry, but I don’t believe this story. The Romans did not crucify thieves. They assigned them to the galleys as oarsmen. To perform useful labor. Rebels were crucified. But not do-gooders. This is why I don't believe the story. I'm not saying Jesus was not crucified. I'm saying it was not for the reason stated. And, I don't subscribe to the resurrection part, either. I offer that Ditamus - Hebrew for twin - was Jesus' twin brother. People just mistook Ditamus for Jesus after the crucifixion. The Origin of Christianity!

Jesus died around 3 pm on a Wednesday and was buried. Three days and three nights brings us to Saturday, probably a little after 3 pm. Remember Saturday was the Sabbath so no one went to the tomb, which was found empty BEFORE SUNRISE on Sunday. See, it was FOUND empty on Sunday! So it was Wednesday to Saturday, not Friday to Sunday. [Edited by Don W]

At least one of the Gospel accounts has the visitors to the tomb coming during the light of day. So are we just ignoring that Gospel? Disregarding it because it does not fit the plan? Cut and paste? What’s up here, Amethyst.

[edit on 4/17/2006 by donwhite]

These may have been covered in other posts
1. three days,
in 1st century Judea any part of a day was counted as a day, so 1hour on Friday before twilight was 1 day. (the day started when 3 stars were visible in the twilight sky) Saturday (from twilight Friday to twilight Saturday) (day 2) Sunday from twilight Saturday to the resurrection (day 3)
2 Jewish officials were not allowed to invoke capital punishment (especially on a famous popular man like Jesus) the Romans didn't kill Jesus for a crime they did it out of apathy and appeasement (pilot seamed to regret the execution but didn't want a riot I suspect this is why the body was taken down and not left for the crows)
3 the executioners wouldn't be fooled by Jesus passing out (the water and blood indicates a ruptured heart and the blood separating into serum and blood cells)
4 the guards would have been executed by being burned alive if they let anyone steal the body

posted by Amethyst: “If you look at Matthew 12:40, Jesus said He would be in the heart of the earth 3 DAYS and 3 NIGHTS. Friday to Sunday doesn't cut it there.

Not so fast, if what Amethyst said is correct it makes sense,

Wednesday - crucifixion

Thursday-AM Day 1
Thursday-PM Day 1

Friday-AM Day 2
Friday-PM Day 2

Saturday-AM Day 3
Saturday-PM Day 3

Sunday-AM Day 4

However as dAlen pointed out, the jewish day runs from sundown to sundown

Effectively 6pm-6pm is 1 day

So Saturday PM would be sometime around 6am Sunday morning, right around the time Jesus suposedly greeted mary in the garden.


[edit on 17-4-2006 by mrjones]

this idea:
" 3 the executioners wouldn't be fooled by Jesus passing out (the water and blood indicates a ruptured heart and the blood separating into serum and blood cells)"

is basically a medical miracle - most any forensic pathologist will tell you that there's no way this could happen in such a short time if it happened at all.

the other theory about the fluid in the cardiac sac is also completely bogus as the amount of fluid there is only a few ounces or less

of course, none of this "blood and water flowing" matches up with the most likely scenario - Roman soldiers standing guard over crucifixions would give a slight poke with a stick or a spear just to see if there was a reaction. Too many folks who don't bother much with history misinterpret this little nudge with some kind of full on killing thrust to ensure death. Even without history, that makes no sense whatsoever since it runs counter to the whole idea of using crucifixon in the first place! You don't go to all the trouble and expense of a crucifixion and then do something to ensure a quick death (nor do you take down the body immediately for burial since that defeats the purpose of making the punishment a deterrent for the rest of the citizenry).

Whether this event acutally happned at all is still open to debate but, there is almost no chance at all that it happened the way it is portrayed in the Gospels.

Side note: some folks keep referring to Josephus as though he would be the final arbitor of the historical veracity of Jesus. I'm pretty sure that none of those folks have ever read Josephus nor the hundreds of commentaries on the life and works of the man. Not to even mention the suspicions surrounding the so-called "survival" of his writings in light of the fact that virtually every one of the works of his contemporaries and precendents were systematically destroyed by agents of both Christianity and barbarians. Are we so "lucky" that Josephus' works were "miraculously saved". Hmmm....

Originally posted by Al Davison
this idea:
" 3 the executioners wouldn't be fooled by Jesus passing out (the water and blood indicates a ruptured heart and the blood separating into serum and blood cells)"

is basically a medical miracle - most any forensic pathologist will tell you that there's no way this could happen in such a short time if it happened at all.

the other theory about the fluid in the cardiac sac is also completely bogus as the amount of fluid there is only a few ounces or less

of course, none of this "blood and water flowing" matches up with the most likely scenario - Roman soldiers standing guard over crucifixions would give a slight poke with a stick or a spear just to see if there was a reaction. Too many folks who don't bother much with history misinterpret this little nudge with some kind of full on killing thrust to ensure death. Even without history, that makes no sense whatsoever since it runs counter to the whole idea of using crucifixon in the first place! You don't go to all the trouble and expense of a crucifixion and then do something to ensure a quick death (nor do you take down the body immediately for burial since that defeats the purpose of making the punishment a deterrent for the rest of the citizenry).

Whether this event acutally happned at all is still open to debate but, there is almost no chance at all that it happened the way it is portrayed in the Gospels.

It seems entirely possible he could have ruptured something internally either via the in intenst beatings he recieved or via the emmense stress he was under.
Possibly even a broken rib could have punctured an internal organ when he fell from under his cross while carrying it up the hill.
Somewhat of an assumption, but the romans did pull a man from the crowd to help him carry the cross.

Also they didn't impale him with sword to kill him, they did it to prove he was dead so they could take him down and get it overwith.
They would not leave him up there because the Romans only killed him to appease the Jews and leaving him there would have encited riots.



[edit on 17-4-2006 by mrjones]

MrJones:
Please list the organs that contain clearish fluid and the amounts - I think you'll find very few, if any, and the amounts will be less than a few ounces. Don't take my word for it, though.

On the second point, you're actually arguing the same as I am but apparently without the history - yes, the pokes and prods were to check to see if the victim was still alive but you don't check for signs of life with a killing thrust. Think about it. How likely is it that I would stab you through the heart to see if you were really dead?

Originally posted by Amethyst
The Pharisees didn't like Jesus because He threatened their power

He was also a horrible blasphemer, claiming that god got his mom preganant, and that he is the son of god and god himself. This is a problem with having so much mixing of hte church and the state.

It seems entirely possible he could have ruptured something

The water and blood issue is usually taken as a theological statement, that it is some sort of veiled reference to the eucharist OR the water into wine miracle. It is difficult to see how a large amount of water and blood is going ot build up in person like this.

because the Romans only killed him to appease the Jews

The Romans killed him because he was an enemy of the state. He threatened the existence of the state and called himself "King". They didn't do it just because the jews inisted on it. If that was it, they'd've just lopped his head off, or the jews would've killed him, since they had decapitated John the Baptist so shortly before also.
The fact that the Roman governor condems him to death and the mode of death, crucifiction, all indicate that the Romans considered him a rebel and killed him of their own.

Originally posted by donwhite
Lastly. Why did the Jewish high priest fear Jesus so much?

If you go along with any of the Infancy gospels, it was pretty clear that the Jewish hierarchy in Jerusalem didn't think much of Jesus from the get-go. And one, a historian named Annas, had a particular bone to pick with Jesus, because Jesus killed his son when his son and Jesus were both five years old. Now, there's a pretty good, personal reason to turn Jesus over to the authorities. Jesus chasing the money lenders out of the Temple was pretty much the last straw. Jesus was a big trouble-maker, and the last thing they needed was trouble.

posted by Jeasterl: "These may have been covered in other posts
1. Friday. Three days. In 1st century Judea any part of a day was counted as a day. 1 hour on Friday was 1 day. The day started when 3 stars were visible in the sky.

2. Saturday was day 2.

3. Sunday from twilight Saturday to the [pre-dawn?] resurrection, was day 3. Jewish officials were not allowed to invoke capital punishment (especially on a famous popular man like Jesus) the Romans didn't kill Jesus for a crime. The [Romans] did it out of apathy and appeasement. Pilate seemed to regret the execution but didn't want a riot. I suspect this is why the body was taken down and not left for the crows.

4. The executioners wouldn't be fooled by Jesus passing out - the water and blood indicates a ruptured heart and the blood separating into serum and blood cells.

5. The guards would have been executed by being burned alive if they let anyone steal the body. [Edited by Don W]

I’m overwhelmed. Let me start, item by item.

1. The 3 stars is new to me. I usually hear sundown. However since it rarely rained in Judea, I guess either would work ok. Friday. Day 1. Night 1.

2. Saturday - the Sabbath - is Day 2. Night 2. One poster says there were TWO Sabbaths. I don’t know how to figure that, assuming it is accurate.

3. One Gospel says Mary Magdalen went to the tomb in the dark. Other Gospel’s say Mary M. and a woman named Elizabeth went together to the tomb and it was First Light. Dawn. Day 3. But NO Night 3. Hmm?

I disagree sharply with your characterization of the Roman solders vis a vis the Jewish people in the First Century.

[edit on 4/17/2006 by donwhite]