A Thoroughly NOT Nice Easter Lesson

First off, I'd like to say that I am a practising Christian - but I'm not of any division, don't believe in Creationism, and I consider pretty much the entire Bible to be one big metaphor.

That said, I have recently thought up of a remarkable test of faith.

It came up whilst at work, talking with some friends during some down-time, and the question came up "If you could travel through time and kill one person, who would it be?". Of course some people said Hitler, another said Gandhi in what I assumed was a Fight-Club referance. However, I said "Jesus".

That's right - given the chance to go through time and kill someone - I, a Catholic, and someone very passionate about morality, spirituality, and personal faith (whether it be through the Allah, Bramha, "the Great Spirit", Ancestoral Watchers, or whatever) - would kill Jesus.

Why?

It's really a great test of faith.

I mean, if you take the story of the Bible as at least partially established in truth, then the concept of Jesus dying on the cross is one that was:

1. Unavoidable; Jesus KNEW he would die on the cross. That's why God SENT him. He spent his last hours in the fields knowing what would come to him and being tempted by the human wish to live. That's why I think this Book of Judas is probably correct. Jesus knew he had to die, and to fulfill it he asked Judas to hand him over.

2. Forgives Everyone; Jesus died to forgive everyone of their sins. One of the reasons I don't understand those that actively try to spread the faith is by saying "you must be saved!" is that, according to the Bible, those people are already saved. Jesus didn't die for us alone, but for the whole world INDIVIDUALLY. He died for you, and only for you. He died for me and only for me. This is why Jesus HAD to die, why he was sent by God.


And so, knowing that Jesus HAD to die. Knowing that it was UNAVOIDABLE. Knowing that it was the very reason he came to earth. Knowing that he couldn't commit suicide... would you kill Jesus?

And yes, I would. I think the conversation would go something like this...

Me: "Hey Jesus, what's up?"

Him: "You're here to kill me."

Me: "Yeah, I know... odd that, eh?"

Him: "Yeah - it's funny how life sometimes turns out. But I know you gotta do this, so I forgive you."

Me: "Thanks, that really does make me feel better about this. Are you ready?"

Him: "It's been 15 billion years in the making, I can only guess it's time."

Me: "I'm sorry."

Him: "I know, I love you for it though."

-stab-

Him: "Ouch... that hurt. A lot. Thank you."



So that's something to consider this Easter. Do you love something so much that you'd be willing to destroy it to protect it? One of my friends once said "If you love this country, you'll burn it's flag" - and he meant "If you love this country, the people in it, the principles on which it stood... would you fight against it if it was corrupted and misused?"

Just something to ponder.

Glad we aren't friends........... Holy Cow....what a way to invision things.

I find your thoughts very profound, Yarium. I'm not religious, and I don't find any logic in what is held by religious christianity in regard to salvation. We are all saved from death--which are the wages of sin--but it is not the sin that is our ultimate enemy, it is death.

The only hope any of us ever had to be free of death's dead end was given to us through the death of one person--one man opened the matrix for the rest of us to follow.

It's funny how someone who feels they are a believer in Christ being the Son of God and the rescue that he provided through his mortal death are immediately aghast when another makes a statement such as you have. That seems to say that there is little faith instead of a lot--in what God promises to us.

We were promised life and that promise was kept. It's just not something fully realized until our own death comes--that's when life really begins. And it's going to be the same for all of us.

Yarium, I think your post is thought-provoking and interesting.

I honestly don't think I would kill anyone unless they were threatening the immediate safety of myself or my loved ones. So, if I got the chance, I guess I'd just wait till that happened.

I would never kill Jesus no matter what . His death would be for him to decide not me or any other mortal.

Thanks a lot Queenie for really understanding this. Thank you also to Benevolent Heretic for really considering it too. Yes, murder is a horrible thing, and I for one would never want to do it... but the person I worship, the one whom I love the most... I would rather be the one that killed Him, rather than be the one that killed Hilter.

The one that killed Hitler (assuming he didn't commit suicide) does so out of angst, out of revenge, and out of hate. I would kill Jesus out of love - pure, untainted (as untainted as a human can be), love.

ProudCanadian, you say his death is for Him to decide... but he came and was sent to earth with the decision -already made-. I would be but the instrument of His will in this sense, no? Would not you be also?

If you love someone else enough that you would die so that they would live, that is great love. Jesus died to save everyone (no holds bar, whether they believe or not, straight or gay, humanly morale or alien morality), he died out of love. So being the one that kills him is the same as Him being asked by Him to kill Him.

As for Jensouth, I find it unfortunate that you should be glad of something you have not experienced. I'm friends with many people, atheist and crazy zealous alike. I have one friend who is completely anti-religious, and another who entered the semenary. It's not the answers you end up with Jensouth, it the wisdom gained from asking the questions. If you want to recieve a deeper insight into your faith, you CANNOT follow it blindly! You must test your own faith so that you come to a new, fuller, deeper, and more personal relationship with God.

Take this quote - "It is not the answers that are important, it's the questions. Someone that claims to know all the answers must not ask that many important questions."

[edit on 16-4-2006 by Yarium]

Yarium... now tell me honestly.. do you think you would be able to kill Jesus when you'd stand in front of him? No matter how much you'd hate him, or even out of a twisted way of love... in the face of the Son of God all living beings melt.. you'd change at that very instant.

I don't understand some people. You say in the face of the Son of God all people melt... but they killed him before. According to your words, this would have been impossible. But also according to your words, had Jesus not LET himself be killed, be the sacraficial lamb through whom all our sins are forgiven, then we'd be living in a damned world, would we not?

And what do you mean by twisted love? You seem to think that I believe Jesus to be the cow that's slaughtered for the cheeseburger I "love". That is not the love I speak of. The love runs deep like the love for a member of the family.

Blast, I gotta go again. I will continue when I get back. But consider this, God is not always right. If he was, then he knows all our fates. If he knows all our fates, then why would He create us - especially if our fate is to fail him? Why would God create something that denies Him, or that loves him but cannot accept him and so lives through eternal suffering?

No, God does not know everything... God is much more human than most people are willing to believe.

Wow Yarium, heavy stuff to ponder on a Monday morning at work.
I can totally see you point. I wonder what feelings you might have if after you killed him, it all turned out to be metaphor. I will think upon your post all day now. thanks, like I dont have enough on my plate...lol

Originally posted by Yarium

Do you love something so much that you'd be willing to destroy it to protect it?

Two words: CrackPot

Originally posted by Landis
Two words: CrackPot

What are you talking about? Just because YOU don't understand something, doesn't mean the person talking about it is nuts.

As far as I understand the story of Jesus, he was really tortured, made to hang on a cross for days, dripping blood, slowly and painfully dying, and finally giving in to death. And, as far as I understand, his death was inevitable. It was going to happen.

And you cannot understand an act of love that would take his life quickly and painlessly so he didn't have to go through the torture of carrying his own cross and hanging on it for days?

Well, that's fine that you cannot conceive of it or understand it, but if all you have to add to this thread is calling the threadstarter a name, I suggest you look elsewhere on the board for a thread in which you can actually contribute. Because you added nothing at all of value to this one.

Originally posted by Yarium
I don't understand some people. You say in the face of the Son of God all people melt... but they killed him before. According to your words, this would have been impossible.

Yeah, that same thought crossed my mind after I posted this. But I was talking about all living beings. Alive in body and spirit that is. Spiritually dead people, probably even posessed by demons, might be heartless enough to kill him.

But also according to your words, had Jesus not LET himself be killed, be the sacraficial lamb through whom all our sins are forgiven, then we'd be living in a damned world, would we not?

We are living in a damned world.. only about a sixth of the world accepts Christ.. the rest remain misled.

And what do you mean by twisted love? You seem to think that I believe Jesus to be the cow that's slaughtered for the cheeseburger I "love". That is not the love I speak of. The love runs deep like the love for a member of the family.

I know what you mean, but it's the same as trying to explain that Judas was fulfilling a task God put on him.. it's twisted.. sure you could say; wow! what a brave man.. to betray Jesus, because otherwise he wouldn't be crusified, and take the consequences of that.. living with the fact that you killed someone you loved. No wonder he hung himself. I think Judas was taken over by satan, as the bible writes, and after the dirty deed was done, satan left him and so Judas realised what he had done..

No, God does not know everything... God is much more human than most people are willing to believe.

Part of him is.. the part called Jesus. God the Father is allknowing, for as far as He revealed himself to us.

The reason we have free will is that it's the only way we can truly love God.. by freewillingly choosing to do so. If we were not capable of choosing otherwise, the love wouldn't be real.

Originally posted by phiniks
The reason we have free will is that it's the only way we can truly love God.. by freewillingly choosing to do so. If we were not capable of choosing otherwise, the love wouldn't be real.

I'm glad you have some understanding of where I'm coming from then . Yes, I pondered that for the longest time - the issue of free will. If God were to know everything, and created us with that in mind, and knew what choices we would make, then why create us? God MUST have given us free will, otherwise, yes, the love wouldn't be real.

But the moment you toss in free will to do and choose as we please, then suddenly God loses the "all-knowing" and "all-powerful" aspects that way too many people place in Him. It a strange thing to consider.

Mind you, I was also forced to confront this question whilst trying to integrate my scientific understandings of the universe, and how it could be possible that my spiritual views can mesh with it. Thanks for contributing phiniks.

And once again my thanks goes to Benevolent Heretic. Actually, I guess I should place myself in this picture I've painted. I consider the spearing of Jesus to be "what killed him". Otherwise he would've survived on the cross for such a long period of suffering. Interesting thing again, did the Roman that speared Jesus kill him out of pity (to end his pain) or to appease the crowd (the mob likes things done fast... even two thousand years ago...)? That's something I'm going to have to consider.

I think that we can recognize that Christ is Christ due to his fulfillment of the Old Testament prophesies. He could not have been the Messiah if He hadn't fulfilled these prophesies. If you were to go back in time to kill Him, I don't believe that He would allow you to do so. He couldn't fulfill the prophesies if he were stabbed.

Come to think of it, he couldn't have fulfilled the prophesies (I think) had he not already been dead when the soldier pierced his side.

Could you clarify one thing for me Yarium - you said that as a practicing Christian you are not of any one division but a few paragraphs later you referred to yourself a catholic. Are you a practicing catholic?

Sorry, my mistake... I'm not usually one to make large distinguishments between the different Christian denominations. I am a practising Roman Catholic, though I do not consider myself quite as such.

This grey zone mostly comes from the spot I find myself in having been raised Roman Catholic, but not believing in the church as always being right (during the Creed I do not say "I believe in the Roman Catholic Church" though I say everything else, because I do believe everything else... but not believing in that one part then makes me not Roman Catholic... see the greyness?).

As for the stabbing, Jesus was stabbed by a Roman to speed up his death. That's why on all the crosses you see of Jesus, he has a wound at his abdomen - which is where he was stabbed. I'm placing myself in the Roman's shoes, so to say.

This brings up an interesting question. Knowing full well what would come of his death, would you be sentaced to Heaven or Hell for commiting this act. You knowingly saved the world by killing Jesus. Is this still murder?

All sins were forgiven in the death upon the cross.

Originally posted by Rasobasi420
This brings up an interesting question. Knowing full well what would come of his death, would you be sentaced to Heaven or Hell for commiting this act. You knowingly saved the world by killing Jesus. Is this still murder?

Judas didn't save the world by betraying Jesus. The soldiers that flogged Him didn't save the world. The people that called for his crucifixion didn't save the world. We the people, for whom He died on the cross, aren't saving the world by sinning.

If one were to go back in time and kill Jesus they would be committing an act of murder and not in any way would they be saving the world.

As for heaven or hell, only God knows - literally.

Originally posted by Archerette

If one were to go back in time and kill Jesus they would be committing an act of murder and not in any way would they be saving the world.

As for heaven or hell, only God knows - literally.

Why? If he doesn't die, the world will not receive salvation through the death of Christ right? So, whoever delivered the death blow/stab would be the one who allowed for the worlds salvation. If he didn't know this, and was only doing it out of anger, or orders, then he saved the world and lost his soul. If he did it knowing what would happen, then he should be a saint right?

Originally posted by Yarium
(during the Creed I do not say "I believe in the Roman Catholic Church" though I say everything else, because I do believe everything else... but not believing in that one part then makes me not Roman Catholic...

I do not think it means what you think it means.

At no point in reciting the Creed does any church state that - what it states is that " I believe in ... the holy catholic Church, ...". The word catholic simply means universal. This part of the creed is stating the belief that Christ established a universal church for all.

Here is a link with a short write up on the creed:
www.ewtn.com...