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Why is race such a taboo subject?

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posted on Apr, 22 2006 @ 11:42 PM
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Well, Saphronia and Benevolent Heretic,

I guess that the use of the "n-word" is attributed to personality. I'm open-minded about its use. And, it is fair to say that some people are comfortable about it and others aren't. But for me personally, I'm quiet and shy. And, I also try to be (for lack of a better term) socially mindful of others. Perhaps if I were more extroverted, I would have different feelings about it.

But if it is okay with some people and they are comfortable with using the term, then that's fine. I just ask that people understand the context in which it is used. And not be hypocritical about it when other people use it.

I just feel conflicted and perhaps socially inept when the word comes up. I don't like to use it. And I won't encourage others to use it. But if they use it, that is something that they have to deal with. But if they use it against me in a derogatory way, then I will have to say something about it.




posted on Apr, 22 2006 @ 11:58 PM
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I think it's important to always keep in mind the historical significance of the N word. It is not just an off the cuff comment or derogatory utterance. It is a diachronic expletive used to degrade a race of people. Thought of and utilized to further enable one race to subjugate another. I do not feel it is proper for anyone. The recent "off cuff" use by blacks is more damaging to the causes of equality than they know. As long as words such as this are thrown around "willey nilley" we will never, as a society, over come feelings of superiority from one race to another.



posted on Apr, 23 2006 @ 12:19 AM
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Police_Officer339,

That is a profound thing to say about the use of the "n-word". I just wanted to say that some people have different attitudes about it. I, myself, do keep in mind its historical context. But, like I said in a previous post, I feel that it is a term of disrespect and I don't like to use it.

But, people have to examine these things and talk it out to find exactly what the context of the word demonstrates and what it means to them, imho.

[edit on 23-4-2006 by ceci2006]



posted on Apr, 23 2006 @ 01:42 AM
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I thought a lot about what you had to say today. And, I would like to give you my extreme apologies for hurting your feelings. I did not mean to say things that annoyed you or made you angry. I only wanted you to know that I had sympathy for your incident.

When I gave advice, I should have been more mindful of your feelings. From the clarity of your words I understand the gravity of how much that conflict you experienced meant.

I respect your natural perspective of events. I did not mean to minimalize your experience with my questions. I truly am sorry that it happened to you. And yes, you verified that whites do experience racism. I believe that racism (as I said in an earlier post in this thread) is not exclusive to one race. It happens across the board. I believe you. And I think that people of all stripes should not be racist.

When you asked about what are some other solutions to combat racism, I will give you a short list and hope that others can add on to it with their thoughts.


1) Start conversations about race-relations with your family and friends. Encourage these conversations and embrace them with open-mindedness and not anger.

2)Read more about other ethnicities, cultures and races. To learn about life in another's shoes helps being empathetic to another's situation.

3)Examine your own feelings about race and racism often. When one experiences racism, it is a startling experience (in my personal point of view). Yes, I believe you have to compare bad experiences with good experiences. And like you said, you can't erase the bad experiences. But like Benevolent Heretic said, you can't hold on to them either.

4)Venture into different neighborhoods. Ask questions. Talk to people. Learn about different cultures and customs first hand.

5)When an act of racism occurs, be quick to address that racism and then find a way to resolve the issue. (Here too, I believe in a peaceful resolution. But others might have other answers to your liking).

6)Try to be more sensitive and understanding of your fellow man. Sometimes, it is best to not personalize a lot of things and to take yourself out of the situation in order to get a clearer picture of where the other person is coming from (But if you have a clear grasp of the situation, you might not want to do this.)

I hope that this helps. Please feel free to add your solutions to this list as the thread goes on. I would be interested in how you combat and address racism. And I will be very sensitive to your point of view. And keep on contributing to the thread. I am interested in what else you have to say.

Again, you have my most sincere and humble apology for hurting your feelings. I hope that you accept it.

Ceci


P.S. To everyone else, I will have something to say about the other posts I read today later on. But as I've kept the mantra going, keep on asking questions!




[edit on 23-4-2006 by ceci2006]



posted on Apr, 23 2006 @ 08:31 AM
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posted by police_officer339: “I think it's important to always keep in mind the historical significance of the N word. It is a diachronic* expletive used to degrade a race of people. Thought of and utilized to further enable one race to subjugate another . . As long as words such as this are thrown around "willy nilly" we will never, as a society, over come feelings of superiority from one race to another.

*The adjective diachronic (from Greek dia "through" and chronos "time") means "historically", "over time".It is generally opposed to synchronic. It is used, for example, in: diachronic or historical linguistics, the study of how languages and language families change over time. Opposed to synchronic or descriptive linguistics, which studies a language at a specific point in time. [Edited by Don W]


On using the N word.
Except in an academic setting, or in court giving evidence, I cannot think of any occasion when a white person should use the N word.

As for blacks in public, as in comics, for example, it is truly “black” humor and maybe society can never rise above that or escape from it, but it is not helpful to either blacks or whites to hear the N word used by blacks in public. The late Richard Pryor made a lot of money doing that, then about 15 years ago he announced he was stopping.

I tend to think blacks using the N word in public are sort of declaring themselves to be invulnerable to the slaps of racism. It is sort of a shorthand declaratory word that “you can’t hurt me.” If that’s true, then when blacks in the audience applaud him or her, they are joining in to say, “you can’t hurt me, either!” Of course, all this hidden meaning passes over the head of the white persons who may be present but are unaware of the subtle message being conveyed.

Q. I recalled hearing that blacks used to “do the ten’s” or was it, “do the twelves” as a way of toughening up each other to be able to take the slurs and arrows they would encounter in settings which did not lend themselves to response or reply. Is there such a thing? The other day I heard some black person say that his father taught him as a 2 year old not to run in public. He said his father warned him the police will shoot any black youth running in public. So that lesson was given in self defense.

As to the use of the N world between blacks in private, I would guess it is used to show frustration, futility and commaradie. Sort of like the Romans, “We who are about to die salute you.”

Until white people agonize over the use of the N word as much as blacks, that usage will continue to symbolize a state of inequality or races

[edit on 4/23/2006 by donwhite]



posted on Apr, 23 2006 @ 09:06 AM
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donwhite you make a whole lot of sense. Thanks for your thoughts on that.


This discussion has really helped me regarding the use of the word. I used to 'agonize' over it, as you say and I have decided that I'm not going to do that anymore. I have carried around such guilt and shame around that word, probably because my parents tried to raise me a little racist (out of their own ignorance) and since I grew up and realized the truth about the equality of the races, I have never been able to 'shake' the negativity around that word.

So, I hereby shake the freakin' negativity I have been carrying around with me and I refuse to buy into any guilt trip or shame I have been feeling for years. I am releasing the 'position' that I must be sensitive to black people and the use of that word or any word or action. They don't need (or apparently want) my championship. If people want to use that word for whatever reason it's not up to me to care.

I think it's a stupid word just as several others in this colorful language of ours, and I have my judgments about why people use it (and others) and it all centers around feelings of power, but I will no longer give the word the power to make me cringe in defense of a race when I hear it.



posted on Apr, 23 2006 @ 09:37 AM
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posted by Benevolent Heretic: “donwhite you make a whole lot of sense. Thanks for your thoughts on that. This discussion has really helped me regarding the use of the word. I used to 'agonize' over it, as you say and I have decided that I'm not going to do that anymore. I have never been able to 'shake' the negativity around that word. So, I hereby shake the freakin' negativity I have been carrying around with me and I refuse to buy into any guilt trip or shame I have been feeling for years. I think it's a stupid word just as several others in this colorful language of ours, I will no longer give the word the power to make me cringe in defense of a race when I hear it. [Edited by Don W]


I have said for a long time, “Any white person born before 1954 is prejudiced.” Simple. Which includes me. Knowing I have that affliction, it is up to me to try my best, day by day, to avoid doing those things that reinforce that negative value system I come out of. Always talk up to the busboy, to the ticket taker. With no condescension slipping out. Ask a serious question if you have one, that conveys you expect the person to be smart enough to know the answer. I am constantly surprised how smart busboys are. When engaged in conversation, they prove to be as smart as I thinnk I am.

Based on our “white” past history of negative valuation of peoples - I’m thinking especially of Native Americans - I predict it will be 4 or 5 generations post 1954 before this problem is overcome. 80 to 100 years. Around 2030 or as long as 2050. But it must remain a “work in progress.”

Despite my constant carping about failures of America in this or failures in that, I do believe we - Americans - have the best chance of any other large nation to make our society into a multi-racial, mufti-ethnic society in which “ . . everyone one of God’s children will be judged by the content of their souls and not by the color of his skin,” to paraphrase.


[edit on 4/23/2006 by donwhite]



posted on Apr, 23 2006 @ 09:47 AM
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The recent "off cuff" use by blacks is more damaging to the causes of equality than they know. As long as words such as this are thrown around "willey nilley" we will never, as a society, over come feelings of superiority from one race to another.


One word didn't subjugate the black race in America. The law did. Greed did. And of course, out and out hatred. You are giving the n-word too much credit.

One thing does bother me about the n-word. Once Chris Rock was on Oprah trying to explain the difference between niggas and black people and I found that disgusting. He was actually saying that the definition of a nigga is a ignorant black person. As a joke, okay, its funny, but all kidding aside that's racist. It just goes to show how often times black people are racist toward each other because of stereotyping. It's not a color thing, it is more of a class thing. It's like, here is this person that looks like me acting in a manner that embarrasses me. The idea of a "black community" in the sense of all black people in this country is unrealistic and to lump all black folk together whether they be educated or uneducated just feeds into black on black racism because those that aren't "ghetto" (for lack of a better word) are always going to seek to separate themselves from this uneducated behavior. ex: Bill Cosby with his pull your pants up nonsense and Oprah in general. This type of finger pointing, "these are the niggas, yall. i'm not a nigga I'ma "good" black person", is just as racist as a white person calling a black person a nigga. I think it's a form of self-hate because everyone has choices to make and our lives could be very different. We all could be those people that are loud, ignorant, addicts.

on the n-word...which some may find offensive...I believe it's time to get over it. On the whole issue of race America needs to grow up. Being black doesn't effect my everyday life. I'm not running around thinking, oh shoot, I'm black. And, I'm sure the majority of us don't wake up with our skin color on our mind. Now-a-days race is just another issue to keep this country polarized.



posted on Apr, 23 2006 @ 10:24 AM
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Originally posted by donwhite
I have said for a long time, “Any white person born before 1954 is prejudiced.”


Well, I wasn't born before 1954 but close - and my parents were born in the first 2 decades of the century, long before 1954. So I did grow up prejudiced. And I've been realizing that in trying to rid myself of prejudice, perhaps I go over the line. Instead of ending at a neutral place as regards race, I have become too sympathetic, to sensitive, too compassionate, probably out of guilt.

I remember specific instances from my youth, playing with black girls on the playground and the words of my mother echoing in my head. As early as 2nd grade, I was already questioning whether my mother really knew what she was talking about, because this black friend of mine seemed perfectly normal, smart and clean to me.



Knowing I have that affliction, it is up to me to try my best, day by day, to avoid doing those things that reinforce that negative value system I come out of.


True. And I think my going overboard reinforces that negative value system, just in a different way. It doesn't serve the end result I desire. Instead of true equality, in some ways I have still been serving inequality, just of a different sort.

Championing

One thing that's just come into my mind.

I live in a small town. I couldn't guess the racial make-up, but I see as many Hispanic people as White people, many Native Americans and very few Black people. VERY few.

Now when I see a black person, my first instinct is to smile, reach out to them to let them know that they are welcome here. (I feel stupid admitting this). I do this because I figure they might not feel welcome by everyone and I just want them to know, since they are a drastic minority here, that there are some people here who would not look down on them or whatever.

That shows my own prejudice. I treat a race differently because of the color of their skin. I want to be their champion in my town. I want them to feel comfortable. Part of it is selfish because I want them to stay. I love multiculturalism and frankly we don't have enough black people here to have a representation of the black culture. But part of it is that feeling of not exactly sympathy, but compassion and comfort I wish to give to them. I think they feel out of place and I FEEL for them.

I'm embarrassed to admit this because I don't feel this way when I see other races. I don't feel this way about Asians, when I see them (on even rarer occasion).

Bah! I hate it that I still carry this crap around. Will I ever be truly non-prejudice when it comes to black people?

[edit on 23-4-2006 by Benevolent Heretic]



posted on Apr, 23 2006 @ 12:05 PM
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posted by Benevolent Heretic: “I wasn't born before 1954 but close - and my parents were born in the first 2 decades of the century, long before 1954. So I did grow up prejudiced. And I've been realizing that in trying to rid myself of prejudice, perhaps I go over the line. [Edited by Don W]


One of my wives had this motto: “All things in moderation.” I, OTOH, like you, tend to be a “swing back and forth” type. We are both ahead of the curve by realizing the depth and width of our backgrounds. You’ve got to know you’re sick before you can seek help.


Instead of ending at a neutral place as regards race, I have become too sympathetic, to sensitive, too compassionate, probably out of guilt.


Can one be Too healthy? Too kind? No. For your own mental health’s sake, you need to keep a proper perspective. Not one of us can cure or fix a problem 400 years in the making and hundreds of millions of people involved. Instead, it is very much more like the reformed drunk, life is taking “one day at a time.” if at the end of each day you can honestly say you have not harmed anyone, you have had a good day. Not all of us are made to be ‘out front.” In fact, very few of us are. There are so many more followers than leaders, but then, where would a leader be without followers?


I think my going overboard reinforces that negative value system, just in a different way. It doesn't serve the end result I desire. Instead of true equality, in some ways I have still been serving inequality, just of a different sort.


You are right. It is especially hard to take people as you find them, on a human to human basis. I know what you are saying, B/H. But take consolation, B/H, going too far in this directions is so much easier to correct than going the wrong way. You know, I have always been much the same way.

Anecdote. I used to have a tenant who was more often than not, behind in his rent. Every 4 or 5 months, I’d “forgive” the past due rent because I knew most tenants cannot catch up. He used to refer to me as “captain.” Well, it was many years later another black guy told me “captain” was a slurred word for “captive” and that he was announcing to the world that he ”possessed” me.


One thing comes to mind. I live in a small town.. Now when I see a black person, my first instinct is to smile, reach out to them to let them know that they are welcome here. (I feel stupid admitting this).


Not at all! Another anecdote. I was a lawyer for 17 years. About half my clients were white, half black. I noticed that many white clients would “value” people by how they looked and what they were wearing. I must say I never had a black client rate a person on looks or clothes. So what you say? I think adversity makes one more conscious of what really counts in life. Keep smiling. Say hello. A journey of a 1000 miles begins with one step.


I love multi cuturalism and frankly we don't have enough black people here to have a representation of the black culture. But part of it is that feeling of not exactly sympathy, but compassion and comfort I wish to give to them. I'm embarrassed to admit this because I don't feel this way when I see other races. I don't feel this way about Asians, when I see them (on even rarer occasion). Bah! I hate it that I still carry this crap around. Will I ever be truly non-prejudice when it comes to black people? Benevolent Heretic Edited by Don W]


Look, B/H, if you had chicken pox, you may still have scars but you don’t still have the pox. Some things cannot be erased but every day is a new day. I like to reflect that there is one thing Bill Gates and I have in equal amounts. 168 hours in a week. People are inherently good. Consider this: Toddlers and young children start life sharing, outgoing, trusting, until they reach the age of 8 or 9. What are we adults doing to our children to make them so much like the bad side of ourselves in those intervening years?


[edit on 4/23/2006 by donwhite]



posted on Apr, 23 2006 @ 12:16 PM
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I thank you both for your compassion for others. I agree with donwhite: don't stop smiling and saying hello. Don't stop trying to be a champion for not only the underdog but for being sensitive to your fellow man. And don't stop trying to be understanding of other cultures.

That is the first step to making society more inclusive and great.

Because, I am, like you. I not only explore my issues and feelings about my own race; I work on how can I reach out to other races.

To some, it's a burden to bear. But to me, it is a burden I must bear in order to make that bridge.

And yes, I do feel guilty sometimes over the suffering of others. But, that is part and parcel of caring.



posted on Apr, 23 2006 @ 12:36 PM
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Why is race such a taboo subject?


Originally posted by ceci2006
And then, the posts get ugly. Every stereotype in the book is raised. And when other posters try to bring up legitimate issues affecting the "race" in question, they are shouted down and insulted.

You answered your own question -- right at the start. Race is a taboo subject because it brings out these things us.

Few human beings are human enough to move beyond the visceral reaction every beast has to another beast that isn't quite like it.

Racism is part of our animal heritage, and most of us are still animals.



posted on Apr, 23 2006 @ 01:45 PM
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Few human beings are human enough to move beyond the visceral reaction every beast has to another beast that isn't quite like it.

Racism is part of our animal heritage, and most of us are still animals.


The difference between us and an animal is we are able to move beyond our initial emotions. Ok i meet someone in a pub, they are black. Now my mind will notice they are black, this does not make me racist it is simply a fact like noticing the colour of the wood the bar is made of. The difference is i will not treat them any differently, it won't even enter my mind to say anything different to that which i usually would. Many, many people are like that and so race isn't an issue with these people. Although we have many animal insticnts you cannot compare this issue with animals in my opinion.

If you are racist then in my opinion it is based on growing up with a racist influence, for example a racist parent. Or maybe the racist individual had a bad experience early in life with someone of an opposite colour or religion.



posted on Apr, 23 2006 @ 05:46 PM
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"One word didn't subjugate the black race in America. The law did. Greed did. And of course, out and out hatred. You are giving the n-word too much credit."


Correct, however we were not discussing the complete causes of the subjugation of a race, only the effects of a word and it's use in that context.

Mans ability to consider himself "master of his domain and all he sees" is well documented and resides within us all. (no matter how we may deny it)(and some will)..It is the indication of our advancement towards civility and true sentience, that we now fight those compelling instincts. Are we advancing swiftly enough? Only a Minority can truely answer that question and I happen to represent a Majority. Yet I feel we are moving forward towards a period of enlightenment that we should all be seaking.

[edit on 23-4-2006 by police_officer339]



posted on Apr, 23 2006 @ 06:22 PM
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Great discussion here. Police_officer339, I salute you for your wisdom. In totality we are becoming more enlightened. We must all stop the feelings of supremacy. It is outdated and is based on fear, no matter from whose mouth or mind it issues.



posted on Apr, 23 2006 @ 07:31 PM
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Saphronia,

I do agree that between Black people, the "N-word" is used to make distinctions. That is not right. That's one of the reasons why I feel conflicted about the use of the word. It is an ugly word used to distinguish between between "bad Blacks" and "good Blacks". And that is the thing that upsets me.

Most of my time, I just think about being an American like everyone else. And when my posts started out here, I merely concentrated on "American" things because those were the issues that came across my mind. But, when it comes to insulting the dignity of others by virtue of the color of their skin, that's where I draw the line.

When Blacks fight each other using an ugly expletive, that is also where I have to take a stand. The infighting between us in the community is also a problem. It not only has to do with class; it also has to do with region as well as education.That's why I ask that we as Black people have to look at ourselves and decide how we are going to progress as a race.

(I know you hate those types of labels. But I find them useful for identification purposes.)

And to agonize over the "N-word" is one of those struggles. I am incredibly sad that despite the fact that as African-Americans are different individuals, we don't work out those differences to get together. And when we are divided, we can only fall. Call me a moonbeam idealist. I don't care. It's all about respect and dignity. As a sister, I want all of us in the community to be afforded with those things.

I want to lessen the "N-word's" power. I want to get over it. But, I just don't want to disrespect all we fought for as Black people by the use of one word.







[edit on 23-4-2006 by ceci2006]



posted on Apr, 23 2006 @ 07:52 PM
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originally posted by Benevolent HereticNow when I see a black person, my first instinct is to smile, reach out to them to let them know that they are welcome here. (I feel stupid admitting this). I do this because I figure they might not feel welcome by everyone and I just want them to know, since they are a drastic minority here, that there are some people here who would not look down on them or whatever.


I am a over tipper. I've been in too many restaurants where white waiters and waitresses see a black couple and decide that we won't tip. You can tell by the service and the look on their face as they rush you through ordering. Every time I'm treated this way I just up that tip a lil more thinking...well maybe the next black people won't get bad service. You are supposed to withhold your tip when the service is bad...I cannot bring myself to do that. It would be nice if the waiter or waitress realized maybe its the service and not the person's race why you aren't getting tipped. I guess, everyone has something like that so don't feel bad, BH. I was taught to tip everybody, but not everyone can afford to tip. Sometimes when I go out with my fam one or two of us will only have enough for the meal...I over tip then too so that everyone is covered. ah, forget it. I'ma over tipper because I'm tired of getting bad service because of a wack stereotypes.

Once I ordered some takeout and I wrote a check it was about a penny short. When I handed it to the delivery guy (asian) he huffed at me. "this aint enough" I said okay how much more, he goes "a penny but you're going to have to write a new check because I already know I'm not getting a tip and I'm not going to eat that penny too." Of course he didn't get a tip after a comment like that. Most delivery people aren't that bold its just a look they give when you open the door. They are so shocked to get the whole 20% tip. So now when I order takeout they're all like "hi, it's been a while". I'm going to change that stereotype one server at a time please believe...I'm such a suckah...but we gotta break those stereotypes because that is the leading cause of black folk feeling like racism is still a big problem. Stereotyping is one of the most ignorant things any person can do.

PO339: I may or may not be advancing toward enlightenment with you, all I know is that perception is the most important part of communication. What we perceive is our reality--the real truth. No one can define that truth to you but you...and in my truth, nigga aint do all that. It is just a word with many different meanings and connotations and I am at peace with its history. Sometimes it seems as if white folk carry a lot of guilt so hearing the word brings up a bad feeling that they don't wanna face. I hear the word and I think of my grand-dad yelling at us to get out of his boat. I think of whispering it cause it was a swear. It is a part of my memories good and bad. It doesn't mean only one thing to me--RACISM. In real life, if I say it around you it just means we are that coo, and I am that comfortable with you. Only on the internet would we even have to discuss this.

Ceci: we can't control how the word is used by other's and we shouldn't want to. Some white folk use it around other white folk, but they'd never actually say it to a black person. I don't think that you can just erase a word because you don't like the way it makes you feel when its used. we just don't have that kind of power over each other. I understand your point of view and totally respect your right to say what you want.

The power of the n-word is in the eye of the beholder, so to speak. It's about perception. You have already lessened it's power in your life by not using it because it can only be negative to you.

edit: to respond to ceci

[edit on 23-4-2006 by Saphronia]



posted on Apr, 23 2006 @ 08:06 PM
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Ceci2006 and Saphronia, Thank You for your thoughts this Sunday! I am a better person for all this discussion. Saphronia, you have a heart of generosity. Ceci2006, I will look forward to future posts.



posted on Apr, 23 2006 @ 08:19 PM
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Saphronia, thank you very much for the frankness of your answer. I know that we can't afford the n-word that power over our lives. I also respect your point of view because it shows the other side of the issue. And yes, the Internet is important in discussing these things because it does make us see the different side of things.

All I wanted to say is that you are fair in your point of view about the word. And, I appreciate your reply because it has given me a lot to think about in terms of the use of the word as well as its legacy. The profound nature of our exchange proves that sometimes we have to be open-minded and continue to discuss these issues in order to get to some kind of understanding. That is cool.

desert,

Thank you for your compliment. I am glad that you are getting something out of our conversation. Your words are representative of what I have hoped for when starting this thread. I had hoped that people could be enlightened in their own way and take these conversations to start thinking what they can do and say to make race-relations better.

Although, I still say to everyone else: Ask those questions! Get involved in the thread! Let's learn more about these issues and try to make a difference by discussing them.

Ceci



posted on Apr, 23 2006 @ 08:20 PM
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Your correct..Only here...
For I am sorry, but I refuse to be involved/surrounded or even contacted by that kind of cool. So in "real" life, I would of necessity walk away from you.

I'm sorry and probably wrong in my assumption, but perception is not all there is to communication; There is reality, honesty, openness and understanding. I look to communicate on a level with those of my peers and we share true feelings/emotions and thought, not perceptions. I have hope that the world will one day all communicate on that level. No I do not communicate with everyone on that level, others only polite speak or as I stated, I walk away.
Saying it's only a word, well Holocaust, genocide, peasant they are all words too and belong in the english language, just like the "N" word, but only in a discussion, not in slander/pet names or degradations as it belittles the importance and impact that one word symbolizes through history. Not to mention the propensity to develope those words into slander, or assign them negative implications.
And why is it necessary to "call" anyone anything other than their name? Adjectives that are used to describe someone that are anything except complimentary are unnecessary and rude and sometimes hurtful. Look at the recent epithet "DOG" where did that come from? Is it complimentary? I doubt it, at least not too me. I'll not list the many more that are used everyday, suffice it to say, they are rude.
I guess I developed much of my attitude working in the projects for 15 years on a mostly white police department. I saw the very ugly side of what those innocent words can do when just thrown about. I've seen the hurt, the anger and sady, usually the retaliation.



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