Why is race such a taboo subject?

Here is something to add on to Benevolent Heretic's post defining racism:

What Is Racism?

A more universal definition of racism is "Prejudice or discrimination by one group toward others perceived as a different 'race', plus the power to enforce it." Groups may be almost identical physiologically, yet be divided against each other on the basis of culture, language, religion, nationality, or any combination of the above.

Racism requires four elements:

1. The belief in separate, definable and recognizable "races."
2. The belief that one "race" is superior to others.
3. Possession of power by the "superior race" to act against "inferior races" without effective
defense or redress.
4. Action that is both arbitrary and harmful.

Prejudice that remains an attitude can be emotionally painful and demoralizing, but it is not racism until it is put into action. The actions of individuals, in turn, are harmful to the degree that they are supported by power. Imagine, for example, that a Muslim applied to rent an apartment from a Hindu landlord. If the landlord hates Muslims personally but rents the apartment and treats the tenant on an equal basis with any other in charging rent, maintaining the apartment, etc, that is an example of prejudice but not of racism. If the landlord refuses to rent the apartment to a Muslim, the landlord's action is individual racism, but can be only a temporary setback if it is not supported by the society. If, however, the rest of the tenants and neighbors support the landlord's decision, if no local media find it to be news, if the applicant finds no official avenue for appeal or redress, that is institutionalized racism.

Originally posted by ceci2006

You just dodged the question now. Now I know why truthseeka dislikes you. And you did nothing to disappoint him.

Oh, No! Truthseeka doesn't like me?? I'm shattered!! And I wanted so much to be popular!

Your insecurity is showing again. ceci.

And you've shown no empathy either. Nor express any interest in learning about other races.

Nope, you're right there. I couldn't care less about your problems; you created them, you fix them.

This is the last time I will answer your posts. There isn't a u2u coming not anytime in the future.

Promise?

I guess the only recourse you have is to complain to the mods about me--which I encourage you to do so.

You're not that important to complain about. You think too highly of yourself.

jsobecky,I'm going to cut to the chase and reply with only this:

Just say you don't like to talk about race. And find some sort of conscience and post somewhere else where you don't have to deal with race talk at all. There are plenty of threads that do that. And then, you don't have to ever post where someone is spewing "racist crap" anymore. Surround yourself with "serious thinkers" like yourself that discuss building that wall on the Mexican border.

All I can say is that you woefully have insecurities of your own to deal with because you can't take a challenge. You can't answer a simple question. You have to use insults instead of providing well-thought out answers.

That is your shame and your cross to bear. Not mine.

After this, I'm truly not answering anymore of your posts.















[edit on 4-6-2006 by ceci2006]

The very fact that racism against whites is referred to with a 'special' name (reverse racism, Anti-White racism or Black racism) is an indication that many people think it's not 'real' racism. That it's somehow in retaliation for historical racism against blacks and therefore more 'justified' than regular or real racism (read racism against blacks).

Racism Against Whites

Black Racism

Anti-White Racism

/affirmat.html]Anti-White Racism in Private Industry

Anti-White Racism

Anti-White Racism vs Reverse Racism

The expression "reverse racism" reflects this. It implies also that there is a "norm", a "direction" in racism and that it is some white people's racial hostility toward other ethnic groups, that Whites are allways the "racists", while people belonging to other ethnic or racial groups are allways the "victims". The expression "reverse racism" not only gives a validation to this idea but by using it, people who may want to denounce anti-white racism are spreading the idea that white racism is the reference.

Try to denounce racism against the white race all you want, but it's real, it's as wrong as any other racism and giving it a special name only indicates that one would wish it to be seen as something different and less vicious than down-and-dirty racism, so they can feel less guilty practicing it.

But it's just not true. Racism is racism is racism and anyone practicing it, regardlss of their color, should stop making excuses for it and own up to it.

Ceci, you accuse people of twisting your words, yet you twist theirs. You accuse people of calling you racist, yet you call them racist. You accuse people of “finger wagging”, yet I’m surprised you have a finger left. You tell people to "learn some manners", yet, your manners are many times atrocious! You accuse people of avoiding subjects, yet you post only about what you want to say. In fact, nearly every accusation you level at people could be said about you. Every time you tell someone ‘how they are’, you should read it over again and apply it to yourself. Remember the old saying, “When you point a finger, there are 3 pointing back at you.”

You make TONS of assumptions about people’s behavior, speaking as if you know their motivations when you cannot possibly. You ask for people’s opinions, then when they give them, you discount them or ask for proof.

You make claims, then when asked for proof, you have none. You can only recount your ‘perception’. You provide no quotes from anyone. Show me where someone has called you an idiot. Show me where someone claimed that “tar baby” is not a racial slur. When asked for proof of these charges, you hem-haw around and end up not proving crap. It’s all in your perception.

Every thread you are involved in turns into a huge knock-down drag-out fight! Have you asked yourself why you’re involved in so much drama and agitation? Why do you inspire these long accusatory posts from people? Ask yourself that and really wonder about the answer. It simply cannot be because everyone else is so mean! I have never confronted people on this board the way I have confronted you. Just ask yourself why that might be.

You treat people horribly, and then apologize the next day, thinking that makes it all better and everyone will forgive you. Think again. You make excuses for your every action. You say you have been pushed ‘up against the wall’ by other people. In other words, it’s ok for you to call riley racist because she “had you up against the wall”. It’s HER fault! You make excuses for every nasty thing you say and make it someone else’s fault. Then you ‘sincerely apologize’ and wish to move on with this insane ‘class’ on racism that you have going here. You ‘make yourself available’ to answer our questions like you’re some sort of racism professor and we’re all your ignorant students. One thing is clear. I have learned more about racism here than I ever cared to. I have seen just how ugly it can be.

I understand that it helps you to believe that possession of power to act against “inferior races” without effective defense or redress is a requirement of racism. Well, perhaps institutionalized racism, but for individual racism, power is not a requirement. Whoever said that is clearly interested in making it seem that only whites can practice racism. That in itself is racist. Don’t fool yourself into thinking that white people cannot be victims of racism because they have some kind of power of redress not provided to everyone else. And by the way, Muslim (from your ‘source’) is not a race.

You imply that only people of color (I hate that separatist phrase!) are victims of racism and then deny to the death that you are racist. Using the term “people of color” is an extremely divisive term and you know it! You’re not stupid. You think you’re teaching people about racism. In a way you are. You’re leading by example.

I have experienced racism and I don’t care if you believe it or not. I had a great deal of respect for you at one time but as a result of everything I’ve said above, it’s been totally wiped out. And I don’t say that because someone sold me a bill of goods! Maybe it helps you to think that the only way I would form such strong opinions about you and disagree so vehemently with you is that I’ve been influenced by someone else, but that couldn’t be further from the truth. How dare you think I cannot form my own opinions without the help of jsobecky, of all people!! The only person who has influenced my opinion of you is YOU.

And just in case there’s any doubt, it has nothing to do with your race. But you’ll make up your mind on my motivations, so I’m sure it doesn’t really matter what I say.

Benevolent Heretic,

I have read your sources about "anti-White" racism. In my previous posts to riley, I had agreed that there was no such thing as "reverse racism". I had felt that "racism" was "racism". With that being said, I never said once that I denied your nor riley's experiences. I had just asked riley that if she felt I didn't believe her, that she should try to research the topic using academic sources--a request that is reasonable knowing that other posters on other threads have posted proof regarding their subject matter.

Although it is admirable that you went to seek sources to suppliment the view that "white racism" happens, all I can say is that these sources are at best problematic. For example, Bruno Gheerbrant, although a French novelist and poet, is biased in his research about "anti-White racism". He bases his study of the coverage of sites which discuss "anti-White" racism on a paltry content analysis which hardly conveys an academically sanctioned methodology. Secondly, Mr. Gheerbrant--by your definition--would be a racist himself because he devotes himself posting to different web sites deriding Black experiences while promoting his web site, his poetry and his books. He continues to promote especially his anti-Immigration rhetoric in both English and French. In fact, he makes makes his point of view known when he writes about "Black Gangs in Belgium and the Congo":

Black Démolition
It is perhaps with blacks that the European elite maintains, to some degree, a genuinely colonialist mentality. Our rulers came of age when there were still African empires, and when Europeans still claimed their goal was to civilize the savage. Politicians today seem to think they can go the previous generation one better: If civilization could not be brought to Africa, they can bring Africans to Europe and make them into good little Belgians and Frenchmen. What we now see before our eyes—in the streets, on public transport, in the crime figures—is proof that Africans do not become Belgians or Frenchmen. It is when they are in gangs that they most brutally assert their differences from us, but the gangs themselves are only the tip of a huge iceberg of irreconcilable differences that our elites—blinded by Eurocentrism—are determined to ignore.
[…]
If Belgians do not stop the flow of immigrants, they will be forced through the same, painful adjustment as the United States. It remains to be seen whether they will recognize in time that Black Démolition does not reflect inadequacies of Belgian society but results from the presence of Africans in a civilization built by Europeans.

So, it is credible that in his writings that he does describe his experience of anti-white racism on a bus in San Francisco. However, his work, though published, does not equal an academic source.


Secondly, the libertarian blog which talks about "anti-white" racism again does not feature a demographic, sociological, psychological or cultural studies source in which to base the author's reasoning on. Unfortunately, this is evident in the comments that were published in the end. All it seems to me is exactly what you meant by the "nullification of experiences"--the race card was played.

Thirdly, to look up anti-white racism in labor, I am surprised that you would use a source, highly criticized by the Three Amigos and not espoused by ATS. Furthermore, This work would not be taken seriously in academia because it is highly biased and embraces nationalistic thought which does not embrace your idea of a "color-blind" society.

Fourthly, Larry Elder is a highly controversial figure in the Black community. Mr. Elder, also in your definition of a racism, could be a "racist" himself because of what he says against the Black Community. Putting that last comment aside, his opinion piece is also highly problematic because it features no academic study at all. It is based on conjecture and assumption.

Sadly, I'm sorry for what you and riley experienced. I've never denied that anti-White racism happens. In fact, I have said many times that I was sorry that those things happened to you. Also, it is true that I should lead by example and believe everyone. I have and continually will. We have all done the "finger-wagging" bit from time to time. But I don't contradict myself. And no, I haven't treated people in a mean-spirited fashion unless they have derided me without provocation, made accusations against my character or made unfair assumptions about my work.

For what it is worth, I am very sorry that you are feeling slighted. But at the same time, you have also had many opportunities to ask your questions and state your comments. And it is true that I have offered to riley an opportunity to speak about her issues. So, I don't think I've been unfair to you. I have been overly fair in giving people an opportunity to talk.

However, all I can say is that your research is not adequate in explaining in academic terms the problem of racism against Whites. Of course it happens. But unfortunately seeking answers from weighted and unblatantly biased sources does not cut it. After all, if you wanted me to prove anti-Black racism, you wouldn't want me to go and post literature from the New Black Panthers or the Nation of Islam, would you?

And I don't know what got into your mind that I have some sort of power trip over whites. I don't. I never have said anything like that or demonstrated anything of the kind.

But I've learned something from this thread as well. I've learned that people just don't respond to polite and kind behavior. I've learned to stop apologizing and being "too nice" and "too respectful" because it doesn't have any affect on people who don't have any manners in the first place.





[edit on 4-6-2006 by ceci2006]

Benevolent Heretic,

I am sorry if you are that put off by my behavior. But, unfortunately and respectfully, I disagree with your assessment that all I am doing is chasing "white racism". I don't. I could easily say that you are just as mean-spirited, contradictory in your treatment of people and condescending of people at times. But, I haven't.

And I do have faults. I've never said I was perfect. I never held myself above anyone. And I have never oppressed anyone on this board. And I don't think I'm high and mighty above other people. I don't consider anyone inferior. In fact, I'm more egalitarian than you'd ever think I'd be. And partly because I do care a lot about other people, I could constantly go over my comments to make sure I didn't offend anyone. But as I realize now, all that careful attention to the feelings of others is futile.

If you think I lord my power over others, ponder this fact. You are still typing your posts here. I am not a mod nor a super-mod. I don't have the power to delete a post nor close a thread. So, if you think that this is a "control issue" or a "power struggle" that is your internalized problem, not mine.

Accuse me of whatever you want. I still know who I am and what character I possess. I own up to things I've said--good or ill. So, I'm sorry if you think that this is making excuses. I don't see it that way. It's not to me to worry about being careful with what I say anymore. I've stopped worrying about hurting other people's feelings because they don't give me the same care or respect.

About my comments, I speak my mind. Sometimes, I make people mad and that's a fact. But other times I try to be diplomatic in my responses as well. But it is still my opinion. And what is wrong with that? Would you think of me differently if I agreed with you all the time?

And about jsobecky, I've learned quite a deal from him as well. And he can be considerate of others when he wants to. But, I still feel that he has a deep struggle about race. It is not your problem. Nor, it is mine. It is his own demons that he has to struggle with. And unfortunately, race is the issue we parted ways on. I am sorry that we did because he is a very intelligent guy. But, I won't allow myself to be verbally abused by anyone just to keep up "appearances".

My experience especially on the "What are acceptable topics" thread alone, got rid of my idealism about people genuinely being fair to one another. I've learned that people aren't. And they don't turn the other cheek as well.

And about those "verbal fights", it takes two to tango. So, the blame has to be spread around.

So, again, I give my deepest apologizes for your grievances. But unfortunately, if you feel that I've been so obnoxious to others as you and jsobecky tried to portray me, complain to the mods. That is all I can say. You've been here longer. And they know you best. So turn me in and complain. I've told jsobecky this. And now I'm telling you.

However, I don't go actively seeking a fight. And, I don't think I've been outrageously mean to any of the posters on this board. Especially on this thread, I have welcomed everyone and thanked them for their comments. I especially made sure that everyone has a voice here despite what position they might hold on race. Especially you. I have always paid you the highest respect. And I always will because you were kind and gracious to me.

But what I don't appreciate is the fact that you make my talking about race a behavioral issue because it obviously has nothing to do with this thread. Now that it is in poor taste.








[edit on 4-6-2006 by ceci2006]

Originally posted by HarlemHottie
I've been around a lot of white people, and I had never heard a story like that before.

I've been around a lot of white people, too. I realize you may not have heard about as many personal experiences of racism against white people as, say... I have. Being immersed in the white culture myself (yes, I'm white, I'm just trying to be silly and lighten things up a bit) I have been exposed to a lot of people who have experienced it. Certainly nowhere near the number of incidents of racism against blacks.

But I don't think anyone is making any claims about the number of incidents of racism against white people. And, without being confrontative, if you're curious about that, I think you should probably do the research. riley made no claims about how often it happens, just that it happened to her. I think everyone believes her, so it's already proven.

I have also experienced racism. Actually if I had to guess, I'd say probably 20 times in my life. People can believe that or not, but again, I'm not claiming any 'academic' information, so I need no sources. I make no claims that I have experienced as much racism as anyone else, just strictly my experience. And, like I said, I'm sure I don't experience any kind of degree or number of events as other races. Some people have experienced it since they were born. Some people experience it every day of their lives. And those people are most times black. I know that.

I hate racism. It's divisive. It sucks when people play into it.

Originally posted by ceci2006
Benevolent Heretic,

I have read your sources about "anti-White" racism.
… these sources are at best problematic.

Meaning you don’t approve.

I’m sorry you took all that time to discredit my sources because as I have just explained to HH, I don’t need sources. I saw that you were asking for sources so I pulled a few off Google real quick. I have no idea of their credibility, but I know racism against whites exists and plenty of people have personal experiences of it. I don’t need to prove it to myself and I don’t have an investment in proving it to anyone else. You've already believe it exists. That's all we're saying.

I am surprised that you would use a source, highly criticized by the Three Amigos and not espoused by ATS.

That cracked me up!

For what it is worth, I am very sorry that you are feeling slighted.
…
So, I don't think I've been unfair to you. I have been overly fair in giving people an opportunity to talk.

ceci, you don’t “give people an opportunity to talk”… This is a discussion board where everyone has an opportunity to talk. That opportunity doesn’t come from you. Not on this board and not in this thread. This is not your classroom where people need permission from the teacher to speak, ask questions and be heard.

“Slighted”??? What in the hell are you talking about? I have no idea why you say that. I do not feel slighted.

And I don't know what got into your mind that I have some sort of power trip over whites.

I have no idea what this means. Again, I said nothing of the sort.

Originally posted by riley

Originally posted by HarlemHottie
Riley, I don't want to involve myself in the, um, 'heated discussion' going on between you and Ceci, but I think her request was a legitimate one.

No it wasn't. She keeps saying she believes me then demands more proof so she is the last person I would take orders from. (1)If she wants to prove racism doesn't happen against whites she is quite welcome to try prove it.. but then her argueing the point would indeed be racist anyway. How would you feel if I demanded accademic proof of racism you've suffered? (2)Shouldn't your own experiences be enough? What if I told you that it's all in your imagination?

Don't think I'm dismissing your experience. When I read your story, I was appalled, but I have to admit that my first thought, as a black woman, was "Really?!" Not as in, I don't believe you, but like, No he didn't! I've been around a lot of white people, and I had never heard a story like that before.

(3)In my experience.. 'white' people are very reluctent at sharing their experiences of racism because usually they are either not believed, feel like they somehow deserved it [historically] or feel obliged to walk on eggshells so do not know how to bring up the subject or if they are 'alloud'. I obviously do not feel this way.

As an armchair sociologist, I would like to see an academic article, or something like it, that discusses what you've been through, but in numbers, just to get a grasp on it.

On ATS, we always ask for sources. Personal experience is important, but only as a single example.

I could look up news stories I suppose (4)but I don't think they've been any studies done.. and I don't think it would prove anything. What about studies about eskimos? Do they get picked on? It's just skin colour.. it doesn't give one immunity from racism and it make NO sense to assume it does.

Some 'whites' are nice.. some aren't. Same applies to africans, indonesians, chinese, aboriginals, swedish etc. (5)If you assume one race is more prone to being more racist or immoral than another that would make you a racist.

[edit on 4-6-2006 by riley]

Hi, Riley, and thank you for responding to me. I'm still trying to figure out how to respond to long posts, in a way that's visually pleasing, so I numbered the stuff you said that I wanted to respond to. I hope my format makes sense.

1. That's not really true. Since you introduced the topic of racism against whites, the burden of proof is on you.
2. If our own experiences were enough, Cynthia McKinney wouldn't be having her problems. Our own experiences are never enough to definitively prove anything, except that it happened once. What I'm looking for, and I think Ceci as well, is a pattern of racism. That's where an academic source would be helpful. An article, even, is dependent on the preconceptions of the reporter and/or editor, and would likely have a smaller sample than an actual study.
3. Of course... I hadn't thought about that. But, that also explains why the concept of racism against whites is so foreign to me. The squeeky wheel gets the grease, or whatever that saying is. The remedy would be for white victims of racism to be more vocal, so that other people are aware that there's even an issue.
4. I googled "study and 'reverse racism'" and got over 37,000 hits. The information is there.
5. I'm going to ignore the implication that because I asked for a source, aside from you, I must be racist, and say this again: We believe you. The question here, though, is not whether we believe Riley, but is his/her story representative of a new phenomenon?

And, I have a question for you. Why do you put the word "whites" in quotation marks sometimes, but not others? Just curious.

I had a link for the Google search, but I must have done something wrong. God, have I been away that long?

[edit on 4-6-2006 by HarlemHottie]

Originally posted by HarlemHottie
And, I have a question for you. Why do you put the word "whites" in quotation marks sometimes, but not others? Just curious.

That's a great question!

riley will answer it for herself, I'm sure, but it's interesting to me, and I hope you don't mind if I interject my thoughts on this. Because I have a very hard time deciding what to write when talking about being a part of the white race. In general, I think it's uncommon that we as white people talk about our race (except for the Stormfronter types, etc. They talk about their race.) But generally speaking, it's not central to our lives, it's not something we were raised talking and thinking about. We weren't taught the same as black people about race, what race is, our racial history... We weren't faced with it every day.

So, here, in this thread about race, I find myself talking about MY race, which I have said is not really a part of my identity, and to tell the truth, it's a bit clumsy. I'm not used to talking about being a "white" person, or thinking in terms of what the white race feels or believes. I'm just a person. So, when I start to type something, it feels weird to say white race or whites. It's just totally foreign.

So, I may also have put weird things in quotes sometimes while not at others. Simply because I'm not used to talking about myself as a race. Does that make sense?


[edit on 4-6-2006 by Benevolent Heretic]

Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic

Does that make sense?

Wow, that was so interesting!

And, if you don't mind, I'm going to extrapolate a little, based on that little tour through your head.

Could your explanation be why black people (or people of color) are so often dismissed when they bring up the racial undercurrent in any given situation? Like, because black people deflect it, and deal with it, everyday, they're more aware? And, conversely, white people wouldn't see it, just because they don't really think about it at all, until it's brought up? Then, when it is brought up, it's like, Oh, you're racist because...and you don't even know it!, with a subtext of So, ha! so, of course, you get the associated feelings of exasperation, and anger that they're being made to feel guilty about something that wasn't even on their minds in the first place.

I don't know... just an idea. Does that make sense to you? (Or anyone else, for that matter)

Originally posted by HarlemHottie
Could your explanation be why black people (or people of color) are so often dismissed when they bring up the racial undercurrent in any given situation?

I talked to my husband a little to get his input on this question, because I wanted to be sure I wasn't overlooking something obvious.

Dismissal of black people who claim racism may be something you experience, but honestly I don't, that I know of, and neither does my husband. I don't often see people of any race being dismissed. I see racism, but I'm usually the one pointing it out.

To be fair, I don't see many people at all these days, but when I was very active in society, I didn't see (or notice?) that. I am very quick to jump in when racist statements are made (by my judgment) to defend against racism because I hate it in any direction. So, I think I would notice it. It would piss me off. But I admit you may be more sensitive to it than me. I'm sure you are.

And, conversely, white people wouldn't see it, just because they don't really think about it at all, until it's brought up?

My point is that white people don't think about the WHITE race. (Sorry for the confusion) That's why it's hard to know what to write when we talk about "whites". We think about race. Racial differences. Racism. I do, anyway. It's one of my favorite subjects to discuss IRL as well as on the board. It's a controversial subject, so that pretty much puts me there. It's just that it's usually about the black race or Hispanics. Like I said, I could talk more about the white race if I wanted to, but frankly, I don't like to go to the sites where the white race is discussed. I talk much more and am more at ease talking about about people of other races than my own. Simply because I've done it.

This is really the first thread wherein I thought about how the white race feels or thinks. When racism is mentioned, I automatically think of racism against non-white people because, sadly, that's where most of it exists.

Talking with hubby again. I asked him if maybe we're not aware of claims of racism being dismissed and then the obvious recent dismissal came up.

A few thoughts on the McKinney situation...

I think Cynthia claimed racism where there is none. That's what I think, but I could be wrong. I don't have enough information to make that judgment for sure, and I'm not sure anybody does. For example, was it the cop's first day? Is wearing the pin mandatory? Has a cop ever stopped anyone else? Were they also black? What would happen if Bill Frist did the same thing McKinney did? Would he have gotten stopped? Grabbed? Does this cop have any history at all of mistreating or separating out black people?

Was race really a deciding factor in the cop's actions? Only he knows.

So, depending on the answers to these questions, I could get a little closer to determining whether or not I think racism existed. But knowing the story as I do, I don't think I have enough to determine for sure. But I have my opinion. As do the people who think her case involved racism. But I also doubt that they have enough information to be sure.

And unless McKinney had the answers to the questions asked above even she doesn't know that the cop acted because of her race.

So, I dismiss her charge, simply because it's almost impossible to know if there was racism involved, even for her to know. But I could be wrong. Being dismissed or otherwise not believed can hurt a whole lot, especially when you're telling the truth. I've been there.

I'm not a person that believes that every time a woman cries sexual harrassment she's right. And I also don't believe that every time someone cries racism they're automitically right. I need more information.

[edit on 4-6-2006 by Benevolent Heretic]

Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic

I talked to my husband a little to get his input on this question, because I wanted to be sure I wasn't overlooking something obvious.

Dismissal of black people who claim racism may be something you experience, but honestly I don't, that I know of, and neither does my husband. I don't often see people of any race being dismissed. I see racism, but I'm usually the one pointing it out.

Thank you for taking my questions seriously enough to discuss it in the real world.

My point is that white people don't think about the WHITE race. (Sorry for the confusion)

Oooooh, okay. My bad. But, see, that's why people sometimes have to ask the stupid questions- to know they're wrong.

When racism is mentioned, I automatically think of racism against non-white people because, sadly, that's where most of it exists.

Me, too. Incidentally, I think that may be why the term "reverse racism" exists, for clarification.

Good exchange of ideas!

[edit on 4-6-2006 by HarlemHottie]

Originally posted by HarlemHottie
I don't want to beat a dead horse, but Cynthia McKinney was totally dismissed when, in her defense, she claimed that her behavior was a response to an on-going pattern of discrimination in the workplace.

Wow, I read your mind! See my post before yours. Seriously, I didn't mean to say that dismissal doesn't happen, it's just not at all a common thing that I see.

I must go feed my husband. I'm also enjoying this discussion a lot. Learning more and more. Thank you!

Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic
Talking with hubby again. I asked him if maybe we're not aware of claims of racism being dismissed and then the obvious recent dismissal came up.

Thanks again! I'm glad you're really thinking about it.

I think Cynthia claimed racism where there is none. That's what I think, but I could be wrong. I don't have enough information to make that judgment for sure, and I'm not sure anybody does. For example, was it the cop's first day? Is wearing the pin mandatory? Has a cop ever stopped anyone else? Were they also black? What would happen if Bill Frist did the same thing McKinney did? Would he have gotten stopped? Grabbed? Does this cop have any history at all of mistreating or separating out black people?

Was race really a deciding factor in the cop's actions? Only he knows.
[edit on 4-6-2006 by Benevolent Heretic]

I'm glad you brought her up. She was on my mind too.

But, as it goes on this board, I do have to, respectfully, disagree with you. In her defense, this was an on-going pattern of discrimination in the workplace. This was so much of an issue that her picture was posted wherever it is that the cops clock in. Even if it were his first day, I'm sure that the reason why there's a picture of a black woman on the wall would have been explained, however derisively.

I'm not sure if the pin is mandatory, but, since there's no picture on it, I don't think it could reasonably be used to make a positive ID.

I wonder what proof is normally required to bring a discrimination suit. Seriously. That wasn't sarcasm.

Although I do believe it was racism, I would be curious to know if this happens to any other congresspeople with such regularity.

Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic

Originally posted by HarlemHottie
I don't want to beat a dead horse, but Cynthia McKinney was totally dismissed when, in her defense, she claimed that her behavior was a response to an on-going pattern of discrimination in the workplace.

Wow, I read your mind!

See my post before yours. Seriously, I didn't mean to say that dismissal doesn't happen, it's just not at all a common thing that I see.

I must go feed my husband. I'm also enjoying this discussion a lot. Learning more and more. Thank you!

Yeah, that was weird, right? I editted that part out of my message, so I could respond more fully.

And, yes, go feed that man so he'll continue to contribute to our conversation and not get cranky.


Thanks for starting this thread, Ceci!

Originally posted by HarlemHottie
In her defense, this was an on-going pattern of discrimination in the workplace. This was so much of an issue that her picture was posted wherever it is that the cops clock in.

I'm sorry, I don't really understand what you mean here. If you wouldn't mind, would you tell me briefly specifically what was this ongoing pattern? Do you mean she was stopped often? You say there was a pattern of discrimination? Did they stop other black people, too? And why did they have her picture posted where the cops clock in? To remind them that she is a congresswoman who they need to be sure to let through?

I'm sorry I have so many questions. I lost interest in the story before reading through the entire thread.

And if it's the case that there was a pattern of stopping her, and only her or only black people, then it could indicate that there could have been racism involved. On the other hand, if they stopped her a lot because she didn't wear her pin, then maybe that's the culprit. If everyone not wearing a pin was stopped, it could hardly be called racism.

Whether the pin can be used as identification or not is irrelevant. If congress people are supposed to wear them and can't get in without them, it doesn't matter whether it can be used to ID someone.

I mean, if a certain cop or several of them don't like black people and stop them often just to harrass them, then it is clearly racism.



[edit on 4-6-2006 by Benevolent Heretic]

You're welcome, HarlemHottie. I am also glad that you are here to bring another perspective on things. Thanks a lot for today's conversation.

Originally by Benevolent Heretic

ceci, you don’t “give people an opportunity to talk”… This is a discussion board where everyone has an opportunity to talk. That opportunity doesn’t come from you. Not on this board and not in this thread. This is not your classroom where people need permission from the teacher to speak, ask questions and be heard.

I respectfully think you are wrong. I answer my posts diligently. And then, from time to time, I write essays on certain aspects of race. That's what I do. But hinder people from talking, I haven't. There have been days that I tended to other threads on this board. And people, if they wanted to, could have had a chance to discuss things then. I had also asked people for questions on nearly every post I sent for a while. No one would ask any questions, if not rarely.

And if I really didn't give others the opportunity to talk, then you wouldn't be having this conversation with HarlemHottie today. Nor, in the past days, would seagull and donwhite be debating on their subject matter.

So, again, I am sorry that you think that this is a dictatorship on this thread. I also tend to disagree that I have created that climate in which people have to ask my permission to speak. I have not. It is your criticism of me for the the most part that has created this climate. It wasn't until the "What are acceptable topics thread?" that you started on this pattern of critiquing every little thing I do. And in the past, I diplomatically tried to change things so that you and others felt more comfortable here. That's what I persistently tried to do. Even from the point of refraining to frame the questions because you "thought they were racist".

But unfortunately, I've found out that my efforts are not to be appreciated and instead despised. You have done your part especially by throwing around the term racist to apply to anyone you please. And you are one of the ones that write these long accusatory posts against me.

It's not that you haven't done your part. You have with your comments and your questions. You have had more than enough space on this thread to discuss issues of race. Yes, you've talked plenty enough--even to the point of telling me that my efforts in trying to keep the thread civil and organized are meaningless.

So, unfortunately but respectfully if you perceive me to be a school teacher in which people ask for permission to talk, I view you as the judge and executioner that punishes people relentlessly when they don't subscribe to your every whim.

I'm sure these are things we wouldn't want to be.

The funny thing is that proof is demanded everytime that I have to mention my experiences for fear of the "nullifying" race card. And it is truly interesting that I never demanded you to recognize my experiences. And I never called anyone a racist for dismissing my experiences. I just said that my experiences were not to be validated in some circles--as on the "Tony Snow" thread. They aren't--even though I honored the requests of dgtempe and others to post proof about tar baby being a racial slur. Funny enough, when jsobecky asked about "white male privilege", I posted some information without question about it.

So, it is only interesting to me that when I ask for academic resources that discuss "anti-white" racism, that I have a fight on my hands. And I have to deal with the impolite comments as well. And your attention you paid my request is telling in itself. You didn't give enough respect to me and HarlemHottie to find proper academic sources for us to read about this phenomenon.

All I have demanded of people that they be kind to one another in order to display civility and respect. Again, that is the only thing I've said I wanted.

But what I didn't ask for is for someone to openly accuse me of "racism" and "behavioral problems". You, my friend, started the trend and made sure that others thought of me badly just the same with your posts. So now, I throw my hands up.

I do like you still besides all of this and I am deeply saddened that you portray me negatively.

I tried to work with you on every turn of criticism. But those efforts are not even appreciated. So, I've decided now that I'm just not going to care as much anymore.

I will still speak with compassion about the plight of others because I do care about that. But for some people on the board, being nice, polite and mannerable amounts to nothing--even when it has to do with sacrificing dignity.






[edit on 4-6-2006 by ceci2006]

Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic
I'm sorry, I don't really understand what you mean here. If you wouldn't mind, would you tell me briefly specifically what was this ongoing pattern? Do you mean she was stopped often? You say there was a pattern of discrimination? Did they stop other black people, too? And why did they have her picture posted where the cops clock in? To remind them that she is a congresswoman who they need to be sure to let through?

Yeah, I was aghast myself when I first heard that her picture was actually posted in their office, and they still messed up. It was originally reported by The Hill, but I couldn't find it on their site, and since I wanted to find a source that wasn't biased, in her direction, at least, I chose Fox News. Here you go.

"In August 1993, during her first term in office, a Capitol Hill police officer tried to prevent her from bypassing a metal detector, as members of Congress are allowed to do. For years afterward, The Hill reports, the Capitol Police pinned a picture of McKinney to an office wall, warning officers to learn her face because she refuses to wear her member's pin. (And because officers are innately suspicious of a black woman with braided hair and gold shoes)," reports the online journal.

I'm sorry I have so many questions. I lost interest in the story before reading through the entire thread.

Both, okay and understandable. I'm tired of talking about her myself, but she, and the whole situation, do make for a good example that we're all familiar with.

Whether the pin can be used as identification or not is irrelevant. If congress people are supposed to wear them and can't get in without them, it doesn't matter whether it can be used to ID someone.

I did a quick search as to whether the pins were mandatory, and it turns out, they're not.

There isn't too much info on the, I don't know, Capitol Hill Police stoppage rates, but, from what I've been able to pick up on how things are done there, I can't imagine they're busy stopping Tom Delay.

Even with all the background facts, it's still looking like racism to me, and I'm usually the one who's like, no, that probably was the result of something else.

Can't wait to see what you'll say.

And, again, good convo!