Why is race such a taboo subject?

Benevolent Heretic,

Would you show me the racist statements I've made? I'd like to know because you have mentioned this before and started me to think about what I might have said to make that sort of impression. And if that is such, it is better to find out what it is so that I would recognize it and deal with it, if I may.

I will answer your comments in full as always. Perhaps we can talk it out so I can recognize my racism, if that's what you think.

But to be fair, everyone has their feelings about racism. No one is absolved. Probably even Simon Wiesenthal when he was alive had his feelings.

But sometimes, it depends on the context. And I would like to explain my side of the comments. And if they were hurtful, I will apologize. There are several cases that I am consciously aware of--especially in the "Tar Baby" Thread. And yes, those posts were racist--if you didn't understand the context. But, to my defense, they were also used as an example of the demeaning talk of what the said poster was saying to me. Now, if those are the ones you mean, it is legitimate--and I worried over that when I posted my comments.

But in the end, there is no other way to make people see what you mean unless you go there.

The "heathens" comment on the "English as a National Language" thread was horrible. And I am very sorry for that. That was not called for. That was angrily written. And basically that was racist. I do acknowledge that I said things on that thread I am ashamed of. That is why I will not look at it ever again.

As for being a controller? Not really. I don't control what people do or say. But what I do is try to debate others and fight vigorously when it has to do with my point of view. And if you mean that for this thread especially, asking questions was my way of keeping things on track.

However, I have never forced anyone to say or do anything on this board. People, if they responded to my ideas and comments, they did it on their own. And my response to them, was on my own.

And I have to ask, what am I supposed to do when attacked by other people? Turn the other cheek? Lie down and take it? Or try to defend myself?

I will answer you back later. But, I will think about what you said.

Have a good day posting!




[edit on 29-5-2006 by ceci2006]

Originally posted by ceci2006
It does matter, because in your experience you felt you were slighted. I know if I were slighted in some way, I would make it matter.

I noticed.. but the amount of energy I've expended trying to explain my point to you outweighs my annoyance.

However, if people make a habit of it, then someone has to intervene, don't you think? I think that this thread is useful because we--from our experience--can correct each other if need be. It is much better to notice than to ignore it. If you make someone notice their mistake, they have the chance to clear it up and explain themselves.

You keep saying this.. yet I tried and you said you were just being 'wordy' and then when I showed you the hypocricy you AGAIN [on this very page] inferred that I'm racist when I have not been. I brushed it off before but you don't even seem to be noticing these things.

That's the impression that I get from you. It is much easier for you to attack others about their racism than deal with your own.

Feel free to show me where I have been racist [in context]. I have not been.
YOU palm off blame for your own racism.. yet when you get called on it.. you tell us that it's just you communicating badly.. then when we give up trying to explain this to you start talking about how we SHOULD be telling you these things and that we SHOULD be honest. It's coming off as manipulative.. at the very least it's confusing.

What I do not like are people who say a racist remark, yet ignores the fact that it is. That is what bothers me.

You say stuff like this yet you are completely oblivious to your own remarks. I'm not sure what you are expecting from us.

I'll try again:
Wouldn't you be a little pissed off if someone called you the 'N' word.. you posted it on the net as an example of racism and then someone asked:

'Why do you suppose you were called that derogatory name?'

..as though there may've been some 'other' reason [like a personal dig] other than your race? You wouldn't have asked these things if you did not doubt them but if the tables were turned I'm certain you would understand my point of view.
I'd post the entire discussion but just posting this example I feel will fall on deaf ears and you'll say it was misinterprited or you were tired as you usually do. You do not seem to want to accept responsibilty for your own words and it seems like you want to convince us you weren't really being racist.
I do not like doing this to you as I believe you are a nice person and are trying to walk the talk but you keep trying to say you are innocent of being racist when you've proven you can be. It's frustrating.

[edit on 29-5-2006 by riley]

riley,

I do? Well okay. I am racist. Does that make you feel better? You are not racist. But you are only fighting for other people to acknowledge White people experiencing racism.

That doesn't seem racist to you. But sometimes, it seems racist to me. Especially when you frankly force your views down my throat about how I'm inherently racist, but you're not. You are pure as the driven snow and unrepentantly let everyone know it. You say blatantly racist things too. But I don't talk about it. I let it go. That is the difference between me and you.

But ever the finger-wagger, you continue on your tirade over my lack of recognition of "White people's experiences with racism". And even when I try to understand, you call me hypocritical.

Cry me a river. You practice the same type of hypocrisy with your every word about "fighting for the acknowledgement of the racism regarded to White people" without even recognizing the entire history of colonialism and laws that have been used to control people of color. The irony is that you are asking me to "recognize White people's experience with racism". I do. I have said so.
But that's not good enough in your book.

You don't acknowledge White racism toward Blacks. Yet, I don't tell you about that either.

White racism against Blacks exist. But I don't blame the acknowledgement of White racism toward Blacks by pegging it on "evil white people". But nevertheless, there are people on a case by case basis that do things to Black people. And in the same way people of color do the same hateful things against White people. It happens.

And I am sorry that other people of color say things or do things to White people that are intentionally racist. People say things that are hurtful to other people. That's a fact. I say things to people that might be considered hurtful. But I'm asking for them to tell me so that I can make restitution and acknowledge it. Think about how many people don't take this step.

I have bent over backwards. But you're rather ungrateful and impudent towards my overtures to make things right.

I don't think I am racist. I have tried very hard to be fair. But if this is better for everyone, then I'll just say it. Because that would stop people from attacking me for my controlling, rather oblivious views.

I might say something that you find wrong and you've called me on it. But, it's true. I've apologized. And I even tried to put an explaination about it. But that doesn't even satisfy you. I think nothing ever will. Because whatever I say is viewed with the utmost suspicion.

I don't know how many times I have to explain my point of view to people. But unfortunately, the first time is not good enough.






[edit on 29-5-2006 by ceci2006]

Originally posted by ceci2006
Would you show me the racist statements I've made?

I'm sorry, no. I have read the threads already and I'm not going to go through them all again. If you're really concerned about it, read them over again. Try to pick them out yourself. Any time you generalize white people or 'people of color' that's a racist statement.

I will give you one example. This very thread we're posting in has racist statements made by you. On the very first page you said:

Originally posted by ceci2006
I started the thread for anyone to ask any questions they have about another race. And hopefully, someone representative of that race could explain these questions civilly without anyone getting mad.

Someone representative from that race??? Do you know what that sounds like? Let me give you an example.

Q: So, do black people really like fried chicken?
A: (by a black representative) Yes. We like fried chicken. We like watermelon, too. And we're theives.

Q: Do white people really think they're better than everyone else?
A: (by white representative) Yes, We're superior. We like BMWs and fancy restaurants. And diamonds, too, till the blacks started wearing them so much.

That's honestly what occurred to me when I first saw that quote from you.

People aren't 'representative' of a race. People are people. I'm white, but I don't have a gun rack in my pick-up. I don't drive a BMW, I'm not rich, I'm not a snob, I don't drink beer and I can freakin' dance! I don't 'represent' white people! I can't because we're too varied, just like every other race.

You 'get in trouble' around the board for making race a part of every issue. You bring it in to discussions where it has no place. That's racist, hon. You make 'people of color' separate from 'whites' and allow certain attributes to each.

I don't control what people do or say.

No, but you try, you try with everything in your being to get people to speak to you a certain way or think a certain way or accept a certain line of thought. And then when they get tired of being needled, they strike out and then you get offended, hurt, become the victim. You can't force anyone to say or do anything, but you certainly do try.

This thread was one of your attempts:
www.abovetopsecret.com...

And I have to ask, what am I supposed to do when attacked by other people? Turn the other cheek? Lie down and take it? Or try to defend myself?

That's totally up to you. But, Ceci, why do you think you always find yourself in the position of arguing a point with 10 people on 'the other side'? When 10 people are telling you the same thing, and you're standing in defense against them with no one on the board coming to agree with you, maybe it's time to consider that you might have it wrong. Maybe it's time to listen to what they're saying.

Originally posted by ceci2006
I don't know how many times I have to explain my point of view to people. But unfortunately, the first time is not good enough.

You have explained it. Just because people don't agree with you doesn't mean that they somehow don't get it. They get it. They just disagree.

Okay, you're right. But, would it have been better if I said what would some people of color think about such and such?

Or..."Some Whites perceive this as such and such."

I can understand that those are overreaching generalizations. I do that. I am sorry that what I stated reflected racism. I didn't mean to. But you perceive it as such. And I apologize.

So one thing I have to do is stop making those statements. I am sorry for the racism inherent in those questions.

But in general, in my writing I do make overreaching generalizations--not racist ones--but about a lot of things. I have to learn how to be more specific and direct in my writing style.

How would you like me to frame future questions?

The thread on the ATS boards and questions is another ball of wax. I am still thinking about that one. I may be perceived as wrong on that thread. But I am not wrong in defending my character no matter how many people call for my head in that situation.

About having 10 people against me: Even if I had 20 people against me am I not allowed to argue my own point of view? And what if I were the only Black person arguing using my perception of the event when the other posters--who consistently agree--are White? Would you still say that I might be wrong in my argument?

Or should I just believe them? Let's suppose I am the only Black person on a thread arguing that the Holocaust happened. But the 30 others against me say it didn't happen. So in that case, are you saying I should just take their truth as gospel? Or try to explain my point of view?




[edit on 29-5-2006 by ceci2006]

Originally posted by ceci2006
riley,

I do? Well okay. I am racist. Does that make you feel better?

And your apology was so sincere the first time.. then you retracted it. Now you are going for sarcasm. I said my post would fall on deaf ears.. why bother asking me to be honest? You keep 'nicely' asking peple for their opinions.. then tear their head odd when they give them then you ask them back again. The answers are not going to change.

You are not racist. But you are only fighting for other people to acknowledge White people experiencing racism.

No. I've now been fighting for YOU to acknowlege your OWN racism against whites to yourself.. you know this but you've just created yet another segway to call me a racist:

That doesn't seem racist to you. But sometimes, it seems racist to me. Especially when you frankly force your views down my throat about how I'm inherently racist, but you're not.

Show me.

You are pure as the driven snow and unrepentantly let everyone know it.

That is gold. I'm not perfect but I'm not going to say I'm racist when I'm not.

You say blatantly racist things too.

Really? Show me.

But I don't talk about it. I let it go. That is the difference between me and you.

Really? Show me. Don't charge me with something if you aren't prepared to back it up.

Cry me a river. You practice the same type of hypocrisy with your every word about "fighting for the acknowledgement of the racism regarded to White people" without even recognizing the entire history of colonialism and laws that have been used to control people of color.

People 'of colour'.. you mean african don't you who were enslaved by rich english..? I've been fighting YOUR racism. Colonialism was not relevent to our discussion so it didn't come up.. I dont see how that makes me a hypocrite because I didn't mention it. Egyptions enslaved the jews as well.. how far back do you want to go? Whites have been enslaved on and off as well. There are sex slaves of ALL nationalities all over the world. Am I a hypocrite because i didn't mention them either?
I've never denied or minumalised black slavery or segregation etc but I WILL NOT pretend it was my ancestors who did it because it WASN'T. I'm an Irish Australian.. the english weren't too nice to my ancestors either.

BTW. I don't think even the decendents of slave owners should feel guilty either. Just because they inherited the same colour skin doesn't mean they should inherit their shame. History should be honoured and remembered not wollowed in.

[edit on 29-5-2006 by riley]

Originally posted by ceci2006
Okay, you're right. But, would it have been better if I said what would some people of color think about such and such?

Or..."Some Whites perceive this as such and such."

Why does color have to enter into it at all? The truth is some people think such and such and others don't. Their color has nothing to do with it. They're people, not colors!!

How would you like me to frame future questions?

I don't care. But don't be surprised if when you ask "How do white people feel about this"? someone says that's a racist question. I'm not asking you to change the way you ask questions, I'm asking you to think about why you're even asking that question in the first place.

About having 10 people against me:

If 10 people are saying one thing and you're saying another, it's possible that they're wrong and you're right. More likely the truth is somewhere in between.

And what if I were the only Black person arguing using my perception of the event when the other posters--who consistently agree--are White? Would you still say that I might be wrong in my argument?

Well, you might be. you might not, but most likely the truth is in between. But I didn't see the "who consistently agree" part. I have been in on these discussions, disagreeing with you when I consistently disagree with the people you were arguing with. And it's not because I'm white!

Or should I just believe them?

Don't just lay down and believe them. Believe what you believe, but throwing a fit to get them to see your point of view doesn't work. Either they see it or they don't. Trying to force them to see it just pushes them away.

People argue. Of course you're allowed to express your point of view. One side doesn't have to convince the other side to change their minds, though. One side doesn't have to be right and one side wrong. One side isn't TRUTH and the other side crap. But if there are 10 white people saying one thing and you saying another, it isn't because they're white.

Ceci, if you're at all interested in checking out what I and others are saying here, ask your friends. Tell your closest friends that you really want some truth from them. Ask them if they see you as somewhat racist. Ask friends of varying color and tell them you want honest, frank feedback. Ask them all if you're controlling, need to be right, if you're somewhat bossy and need to control situations. Then LISTEN to them.

You don't know me, so there's really no reason for you to listen to me. But ask your friends and family.

Benevolent Heretic,

What you said is fair. Perhaps I have been wrong. And yes, I've admitted many times that I don't seem to hold the answers.

I also think that the truth is in between. However, in the case of the ATS board questions, I still respectfully was misunderstood in that thread. I know that you won't believe me. But I feel I was.

And yes, I will ask my friends and family in the real world about my racism. But I would ask other people to do the same in their own lives. Because all of this does not fall on me. Other people have to shoulder the blame as well. So in essence, we all cannot truly say that we aren't racist, are we? We all make pointed comments from time to time and think nothing of it. Some people accept it as such. Other people don't. That's how the game is played.

However, I find it funny that I would have to be compelled to admit my racism. I also find it fascinating that I have been accused of denying my own racism when there are other far worse cases exist.

The even more interesting thing is that people could recognize those traits in me while others get away with it constantly on this board--especially in the most subtle manner.

But yes, I am racist. And others are not.


riley,

Originally quoted by riley
I have even been told that I 'have it better' by non whites [as in plural not all] .. well yes I'd agree if I didn't have rocks hurled at me.

So, you are saying that if that incident didn't happen, you'd believe that Whites have it better?

But, it is amazing for you to say that you are not racist while accusing me of racism. Because no one is totally free of racism. Not even you. You have preferences and you have biases. You prefer to fight for the acknowledgement of White people's experiences by other people. You blatantly say so.

The reason why I find it ironic because all this time the experiences of White people have been acknowledged in history, politics and society. The difference in those experiences have to do with class. But before you call me a racist, yet once again. Tell me that isn't true.

Secondly, the experiences of people of color have been overlooked in history, politics and society. Mainly so because Whites have been in power. Only in extreme cases that the experiences of people of color have been acknowledged--by a riot, a protest, or a civil right leader. I think it's even more interesting that for the nearly fifty years in America that the Civil Rights Act has been passed in America, that people think that people of color have it better than White people. But racism still happens, sometimes obscenely. Other times subtly.

I also find it funny that you would also say that someone from another race said that whites have it better. And you said you were inclined to agree. If you have an attitude like that. How can you say you aren't racist like me?

By all means, cast the first stone if you must. But if you use patronizing language like that to try and get me to recognize my racism, why not do the same for Saphronia or Harlem Hottie? Why are you using me as your example? Or am I am easy mark for your campaign to rid people of color of their racism against Whites?

The funny thing is I am not racist. I know I'm not. I've apologized for my mistakes and I have tried to make amends. A true racist would be unrepentant in their attacks against another race. They would not acknowledge it. They would not try to make amends. They would not apologize. But like I said before, nothing seems to satisfy you.






[edit on 29-5-2006 by ceci2006]

Originally posted by ceci2006
riley,

I will take time to post some passages. But, it is amazing for you to say that you are not racist while accusing me of racism. Because no one is totally free of racism. Not even you.

I accused you of racism because you were.

You have preferences and you have biases. You prefer to fight for the acknowledgement of White people's experiences by other people. You blatantly say so.

I blatently said so because that was what we were talking about. Someone asked about the 'race card' and I gave an example of something I experienced as someone who has white skin. How does that make me racist?

The reason why I find it ironic because all this time the experiences of White people have been acknowledged in history, politics and society. The difference in those experiences have to do with class. But before you call me a racist, yet once again. Tell me that isn't true.

There are is alot of culture that depicts what africans have experienced so no it isn't true. While we're on the subject.. many aspects of christianity are derived, not only from Jewish, but from egyption culture. Egyptions were originally from Somalia.. they have had quite an influence on world politics.

Secondly, the experiences of people of color have been overlooked in history, politics and society. Mainly so because Whites have been in power.

Again.. Egypt. Oh and the Spanish were quite powerful for a while. Empires rise and fall- it called politics.

I also find it funny that you would also say that someone from another race said that whites have it better. And you said you were inclined to agree. If you have an attitude like that. How can you say you aren't racist like me?

Wow. Talk about taking something out of context. I will have to look that up but I'm quite sure you have misquoted me.
[I went and found it myself before your edit.]

Originally quoted by riley
I have even been told that I 'have it better' by non whites [as in plural not all] .. well yes I'd agree if I didn't have rocks hurled at me.

I recall you actually tried to use this against me early on in the thread as well. As I said THEN

"yes I'd agree if I didn't have rocks hurled at me"

I was explaining that if I didn't experience racism I'd be able to agree that I didn't experience racism ['had it better']. I asked you to show me where I'd been racist.. not to ignore the second half of a sentence. Nice try.

By all means, cast the first stone if you must. But if you use patronizing language like trying to get me to recognize my racism, why not do the same for Saphronia or Harlem Hottie? Why are you using me as your example?

1. I'm not using you 'as my example'.
2. Because they have not ASKED me to and.. if you bother to look, my very first response was directed at Saphronia because she claimed that people don't use the race card. I replied. Harlem Hottie.. I haven't noticed him/her in this discussion.

Obviously we are not going to achieve anything by this bickering. Please do not nicely invite me into this discussion again.

[edit on 29-5-2006 by riley]

Originally posted by donwhite

posted by jsobecky

Willie Horton was a law enforcement/rehabilitation case. When you try to make it a racial issue, you foment racism
[Edited by Don W]

If you say so, JBecky

Explain, if you will, how coime you and Willie Horton are the only 2 people in America who think that?

I think the burden here is upon you, dwite, to prove that the Willie Horton case was a racist issue, and how he and I are the only two people in America that believe that?

I'll wait.

Originally posted by ceci2006
However, in the case of the ATS board questions, I still respectfully was misunderstood in that thread.

That is certainly possible. I believe it could be. The reason I said what I said about that thread was the history. Kind of like the boy cying wolf kind of thing. If I judged that thread alone, I would say that you're right, you were misunderstood. But I was judging it based on having read all the other threads. So I will believe you that you were misunderstood on that thread.

And yes, I will ask my friends and family in the real world about my racism. But I would ask other people to do the same in their own lives.

I have owned up to being racist right here in this thread, I never have denied it. I was raised racist and it's an ongoing process to move further and further away from it. I am less racist today than I have ever been and I have every intention of continuing to move in that direction.

As regards Riley, she has denied being racist in particular situations, but I haven't seen her say she is not racist. Perhaps I am mistaken.

So in essence, we all cannot truly say that we aren't racist, are we?

Nobody's saying that. In fact, we have all acknowledged that we're all racist to some extent. In other words, we're not 'color-blind'. We make some judgments based on people's race. When I'm describing someone I saw to my husband, I say, "There was this older black woman in line today and she had a green hat on." But if the same person were white, I wouldn't mention her color. I presume white is understood or the default.

However, I find it funny that I would have to be compelled to admit my racism.

It's that mote and beam thing. You accuse people of racism while denying your own. (See your final quote in this thread). That's why people are calling you out. You're in the hot seat, and you sat there. You started this thread and I think it's great, really I do. But the further along we've gotten and as I read those other threads, it seems that you wish to bring up everyone else's racism but your own.

But yes, I am racist. And others are not.

So is that supposed to be taken seriously? Am I supposed to see that as some kind of admittance that you realize that you do have racist tendencies? Am I supposed to take that seriously?

By all means, cast the first stone if you must. But if you use patronizing language like that to try and get me to recognize my racism, why not do the same for Saphronia or Harlem Hottie?

I have seen racist comments from Saphronia. I have never seen her claim to be void of racism. I don't know Harlem Hottie well enough to say. I can't remember seeing anything, but since a speck of racism exists in all of us, I suspect she is no different. But neither of them have made race their weapon, as far as I can see. Neither of them inject race where it isn't an issue. My dealings with Saphronia have been most excellent. I adore and respect Saphronia, as I do you.

Can I just say... Racism isn't black and white. People aren't either racist or not. It's always a matter of degree.

The funny thing is I am not racist. I know I'm not.

OK. Well, then don't bother asking your friends about it... I mean if you already know.

If that is true that racism isn't in black or white, why are you putting me in the hot seat? Do I possess some sort of racism that others do not have? Is it that I possess the most hideous form of racism? Or do I get forgiven if I burned a cross on someone's lawn or have a sheet on my head?

I haven't claimed to be void of racism. Where did you get that? I said I'm not racist. Yes. But, I have never said anything like that.

I have not made racism my sole cause. That is others' perceptions of me, I'm sure. But I have talked about other things. But would it be better if I were to admit I were racist? I acknowledge it. But what everyone seems to forget that I'm trying to learn here too. I'm not trying to push my views on anyone. I make suggestions. I discuss things.

But I'm not a demagogue. I'm sorry if you think that my writing is geared that way. But no. I do want to hear others opinions. You can call me whatever you like: bossy, headstrong, remote, or even controlling and sarcastic.

Is it because I don't express myself enough? Is that the problem? Should I have been meaner? Should I have just said things impolitely? Would it be more honest if I agreed with everyone else and stayed quiet? Should I have not even discussed race? I guess it is better if I stood by and said nothing. Because perhaps that's the way to view this entire situation.







[edit on 29-5-2006 by ceci2006]

It occurs to me that we need to realize the difinitions of these words when we're using them. I don't know what you all think racism means, but here's what it means to me:

Racism:
A belief that race is a primary determinant of human traits and capacities.
The attempt to maintain or support the separateness of various races.
Attributing certain characteristics to a particular race.
Making race a more important factor in a decision or judgment than humanity.
A negative or resentful emotion or evaluation toward an entire race of people.
A positive emotion or evaluation toward an entire race of people.

Prejudice: an opinion formed before having sufficient knowledge.

Thanks to Merriam Webster for the help.

What a wonderful topic! Thank you, Ceci, for starting it! I’ve been sitting here for a couple of hours, just reading and reading, and I’ve still not read every single post.

Sorry to be so late to the party, but here are some semi-random thoughts I’ve had while reading this topic. Some or all of these may have been covered already, if so, apologies… and deal with it…

jsobecky – Regarding the furor about Jessie Jackson, waaay back there… I think the problem was in your statement:

Jesse Jackson is a common shakedown artist, not a great civil rights leader. And that is a fact, not just my opinion.

Facts are tricky things, and the reality is that it is your opinion that he is a shakedown artist. I have no interest in arguing that point, but to state so bluntly that that is a fact seems a bit over the top to me.

And yes, I did the reading. All that indicates is that there are people that share your opinion of the man. Still doesn’t make it a fact.

I’m going to have to agree with BH on the ‘card’ issue. I think there are ‘cards’, and as she said, not just race cards… there’s woman, gay, fat, short, retarded, Jewish, you name it cards. And they do get played.

I believe that the issue is not racism, however, but bigotry, which is a more subtle issue. And it is my belief that bigotry is born of fear, and that the Powers That Be encourage that fear and resultant bigotry and separation as a distraction to keep The Masses from waking up and riding them (the PTB) out on rails. As long as normal, decent people of various clines fear and resent each other instead of waking up to how they are being used by the few for the few’s political/economic gain, well, the decent people will stay more or less quiescent.

Personally, I’m a fan of the cline theory. You can read about it here, or do a search on clines and race. This theory makes more sense to me than most.

Let’s see, what else? What determines a racist, or bigot? Here’s my boring life story: I was raised in a bigoted household in a bigoted town in a bigoted era in the US. And the bigotry I was trained in was perhaps one of the more insidious types: “Black people aren’t bad, they are unfortunate. They can’t help being black.”. Well, as a child growing up hearing this tripe, I had no way of recognizing it as tripe until I was out of that environment. Now, at this stage (well, the last 35 years or so, actually) of my life, I am aware that I have this leaning, and I fight it constantly. And I do not believe I am a racist. But it can be (and has been) argued that I am in fact a racist (bigot) because I have that initial, ingrained, taught by my parents when I didn’t know any better initial reaction. And interestingly enough, I know people who insist they are not racists, whose lives seem to be a never ending stream of problems with people who aren’t just like them. Me, I don’t have such problems, and I think my awareness of the reality of my bigoted background has something to do with that.

I have the good fortune in my profession to have met and worked with people literally from all over the world. And in pretty much every case where I’ve met more than one person from some place in the world, some of them I like, some I don’t. Folks is folks. The one exception is Australia… I have never met an Australian I haven’t liked… I’m sure there has to be one out there…

Bigotry is pervasive in our culture. And the black / white bigotry seems to carry an extra twist of energy… I have a theory on that in case anyone is interested – Black people are the only race in America to at one time have been property, with no rights. And it was white people who set that system up. And I think a lot of the anger still present between black and white people (speaking in general here) is due to that particular situation. I don’t know, I could be wrong.

I’m out of room, so I’ll stop. Great topic!

riley, I am not done. I will post other parts I felt were questionable. I do have other threads to respond to as well.

But, I won't ask you nicely to return if that's the way you want it. You'll have to do that on your own if you want.

And, of course, your other remedy like I said before is to start a truethread about racism and then complain and commisserate with others who think like yourself.

But even in that statement, I suppose, you might find this inherently racist.

Originally posted by ceci2006
If that is true that racism isn't in black or white, why are you putting me in the hot seat?

I didn't put you there, you sat there. You started this thread, you make race an issue where it isn't. That's what put you in the hot seat.

Do I possess some sort of racism that others do not have? Is it that I possess the most hideous form of racism?

No and No.

Or do I get forgiven if I burned a cross on someone's lawn or have a sheet on my head?

Excuse me? What is that about? Do you think I have done such a thing? Or anyone here?

I haven't claimed to be void of racism? Where did you get that? I said I'm not racist. Yes. But, I have never said anything like that.

What's the difference? "I have no racism" or "I'm not racist". What's the difference?

But would it be better if I were to admit I were racist. I acknowledge it.

Originally posted by ceci2006
The funny thing is I am not racist. I know I'm not.

I'm so confused...

Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic
As regards Riley, she has denied being racist in particular situations, but I haven't seen her say she is not racist. Perhaps I am mistaken.

Hmm. Depends what it means. I have flatly denied being racist here.. and generally I'm not racist.. only because i don't really care enough. If we're talking about skin colour.. it's just colour. I am white with a few freckles [and burn ], others have a slight tan, Russians have a nice olive colour [as do italians], indonisians are brown, aborigines are dark brown and some africans [suddanese?] are very black, chinese are a pale colour.. whats the big deal? It's just colour. It comes in diverse colours because we come from diverse climates.

I admit I was racist against italian girls when I was a teenager.. but then again that was because I went to a all girl Catholic school and they picked on the for being a 'skip' and were horrid.

riley, I am not done. I will post other parts I felt were questionable. I do have other threads to respond to as well.

Rideo then. Have fun digging.

Originally posted by Open_Minded Skeptic
What determines a racist, or bigot? ... And the bigotry I was trained in was perhaps one of the more insidious types: “Black people aren’t bad, they are unfortunate. They can’t help being black.”.

Exactly! Well-said. Same here.

I fight it constantly. And I do not believe I am a racist. But it can be (and has been) argued that I am in fact a racist (bigot) because I have that initial, ingrained, taught by my parents when I didn’t know any better initial reaction.

I think some of the problems we're having here might be based on a miscommunication of the meanings of the words and also 'bigotry' might come into it as well. When I say racist, I'm not talking about a KKK member. I'm talking about someone who doesn't see the races as 100% equal. Who has prejudices about other races... Like I said in my definitions post.

I have a theory on that in case anyone is interested – Black people are the only race in America to at one time have been property, with no rights. And it was white people who set that system up. And I think a lot of the anger still present between black and white people (speaking in general here) is due to that particular situation.

I agree with this. The anger is what is driving the bigotry.

Well, Benevolent Heretic, so am I. I am very confused. Because I basically know I haven't said that I was void of racism. But I did ask questions. And in riley's case, I sympathized with her as I sympathized with you. But she took it wrong. And for all I know, you probably think I said the wrong things as well.


I guess I did put myself in the hot seat. And now I'm realizing I'm sorry I did. I am very sorry that I felt compelled enough to address racism at all. I am beginning to realize that I shouldn't care about the dignity of people, even when it sacrifices my own in the process.

So, perhaps this is moot in its own way. I am the biggest hypocrite of all, then.

Originally posted by riley
Hmm. Depends what it means. I have flatly denied being racist here..

My mistake then.

Will you read over my definitions of racism and see if any of them fit you? If not, then it may be true that you aren't (BY MY DEFINITION) racist. You certainly don't have to call yourself racist (and ceci, neither do you) but I wonder if either of you fit the definitions I have assigned (which I don't claim to be the 'real' meaning or 'complete' meaning, it's just what I mean when I say that word).

I do believe that non racist people exist, but not many in the US.