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Pyramids at Giza were there BEFORE the Egyptians got there.

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posted on Oct, 4 2006 @ 02:02 AM
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Originally posted by Cruizer
The assigned reign of Kyufu is 23 years and it is supposedly within that time, we are told, the Great Pyramid was constructed. Most pharohs began plans for their entombment as soon as they rose to power so we have to assume that in 23 years the whole thing was planned, the site chosen and made ready, workers organized, stones cut and everything readied in a staging area.

Actually, the system of organization was already in place, because of Khufu's father, Snefru. There were already the workshops in operation for stone-cutting, engraving, statuary, etc. Besides, Snefru already had Imhotep designing & working on his own pyramids before Khufu. Once the workers got the ball rolling for Snefru, it was a lot easier for Khufu to keep it rolling. Besides, most of the stone used in Khufu's pyramid was quarried just a short distance away, across the Nile.



Originally posted by Byrd
...the deceased and family are always shown in gigantic stature and everyone else as being tiny.

...Unless they were pictured alongside gods...Then they would either be equal in height or a bit smaller than the deities. Egyptian customs on artworks were to use relative size to denote the amount of importance attached to those in the pictures.


Originally posted by Byrd
The "gods or men with two feathers" is could be any number of Egyptian deities, including pharoahs wearing the Osiris-Andjety "atef crown."


Originally posted by undo
I wonder where the tradition of the two feathered headdress began and why it looks entirely different in some paintings?

Maat (The goddess representing the balance between Order & Chaos) was depicted wearing this type of headress more often than any other anthropormorphic piece of art. When the "double feather" was worn by any others, it usually (but not always) meant that the particular figure was serving Maat as one of his duties or that the actions depicted were in-line with Maat. This is why the Atef Crowns (the "double feather" crown) were shown being worn by Pharoah so often; the "double feather" motif, as Maat (balancing Order & Chaos) was Pharoah's primary secular & religious duty to Egypt as the whole. Pharoah's armies kept foreigners from invading (anything not of Egypt was considered to be Chaos)...Pharoah performed the most important religious duties to ensure the continual renewal of the innundation, the sun rising & setting (maintaining Order within a world full of Chaos), etc.

Egyptians had less concern with Good vs. Evil than they did with Order vs. Chaos...Seth became the god of Evil because he brought Chaos to his siblings (Osiris, Isis & Nepthys) & the rulership of Egypt itself; Of course, this is merely how the myth explained Pharoah's constant battle against Chaos throughout their history.




posted on Oct, 4 2006 @ 10:12 AM
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Yeah Midnight, I simply must admire the fact that as humans they had the same problems with things as we do today on a worksite. Even though an relative industry existed each project was unique and this one more so.

They had to create blueprints and a work plan and assign specific jobs for specific people and appoint foremen at various levels all of whom had to coordinate and communicate amongst themselves constantly. people had to know exactly what they were supposed to do and be motivated to do it....for a very long time.

They had to order the materials for the job with exact size specifications and which materials they would need soonest and provide a required delivery schedule that had to be pre-agreed upon by those who oversaw production of the stones.

Even if the quarries were nearby they had to have a "get ready" area to assemble each day's materials and have meetings as to the workplan and goals of each particular day.

Logistics of housing, meal preparation, medical treatment, transportation of food into the area on schedule, clothing for workers and more had to be addressed before the 1st block was set.

Each segment was important to the project being on schedule. You couldn't have the day's food stuffs not arrive to feed workers due to some reason or excuse. You couldn't have the quarry fail to provide sufficient stones or ones of improper dimensions and stay on schedule and so on. Anyhow, we have the same problems today with workplace interaction so I guess it's timeless.

Whoever was responsible for the projects were faced with awesome tasks.



posted on Oct, 4 2006 @ 10:54 AM
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Originally posted by Cruizer
Yeah Midnight, I simply must admire the fact that as humans they had the same problems with things as we do today on a worksite. Even though an relative industry existed each project was unique and this one more so.

They had to create blueprints and a work plan and assign specific jobs for specific people and appoint foremen at various levels all of whom had to coordinate and communicate amongst themselves constantly. people had to know exactly what they were supposed to do and be motivated to do it....for a very long time.

They had to order the materials for the job with exact size specifications and which materials they would need soonest and provide a required delivery schedule that had to be pre-agreed upon by those who oversaw production of the stones.

Even if the quarries were nearby they had to have a "get ready" area to assemble each day's materials and have meetings as to the workplan and goals of each particular day.

Logistics of housing, meal preparation, medical treatment, transportation of food into the area on schedule, clothing for workers and more had to be addressed before the 1st block was set.

Each segment was important to the project being on schedule. You couldn't have the day's food stuffs not arrive to feed workers due to some reason or excuse. You couldn't have the quarry fail to provide sufficient stones or ones of improper dimensions and stay on schedule and so on. Anyhow, we have the same problems today with workplace interaction so I guess it's timeless.

Whoever was responsible for the projects were faced with awesome tasks.


That's one thing that has always amazed me - the administration of such a project alone, was an advanced concept, comparatively-speaking, of course.

[edit on 4-10-2006 by undo]



posted on Oct, 4 2006 @ 08:28 PM
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Originally posted by Cruizer
They had to create blueprints


You know... that brings up an interesting point Herr Mason...



Just what happened to those blue prints? Seeing as everything else was written on the walls... surely with all those construction projects like the sphinx awesome temples and pyramids, surely there must be SOME papyrus survived somewhere that shows plans, or even priliminary design concepts...

Same goes for all those detailed and hugh statues... they must have been realy talanted to do all this by eye

Not one preliminary artists concept? or architectual design concept to go from? In 2000 plus years of projects?


Hmmmmmm



posted on Oct, 6 2006 @ 11:41 AM
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Add to the problem, that it would take quite awhile just to build the ramp. If the ramp were sand, it would collapse under the weight of the stones without some kind of rock foundation. The ramp is usually depicted as a ramp made of stone. So there we have the additional time sink of the ramp built of stone that had to be gradually graded upwards so that it would rise at level the stones could be reasonably moved up. That is, if they used a ramp.

Add again to the problem, that the the entire outer surface of the Great Pyramid was originally encased in white limestone that was polished to a smooth surface. This casing was carted off to Cairo, following an earthquake that levelled most of Cairo. So they stripped most of the white limestone casing stones off the Great Pyramid and used them to rebuild their mosques and infrastructure.



posted on Oct, 6 2006 @ 12:24 PM
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Ratios of ramp length versus height would depend on the weight of the object being transported. A papyrus from the XIX Dynasty describes a 12 to 1 ratio rule. The unfinished Mortuary Temple of Mycerinus had an 8 to 1 gradient ramp 90 feet wide. Every one foot of vertical height desired required 8-12 feet of length. To translate that out to the Great Pyramid at its apex of 487 feet a ramp 5,844 feet would be needed! At 8 to 1 it would still be 3,896 feet long. With a substantial width necessary for crews to pass each other as much material would have been used in a ramp as in the whole pyramid!

A conical ramp wending its way up the sides would produce too steep a gradient. If it were manageable in incline there wouldd be no way to negotiate turns efficiently. It would have to be so wide as to, again, be greater in mass than the pyramid.

Edwards, I.E.S.
The Pyramids of Egypt
Penguin Books Ltd, Middlesex GB, 1947



posted on Oct, 6 2006 @ 12:39 PM
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Originally posted by Cruizer
Ratios of ramp length versus height would depend on the weight of the object being transported. A papyrus from the XIX Dynasty describes a 12 to 1 ratio rule. The unfinished Mortuary Temple of Mycerinus had an 8 to 1 gradient ramp 90 feet wide. Every one foot of vertical height desired required 8-12 feet of length. To translate that out to the Great Pyramid at its apex of 487 feet a ramp 5,844 feet would be needed! At 8 to 1 it would still be 3,896 feet long. With a substantial width necessary for crews to pass each other as much material would have been used in a ramp as in the whole pyramid!

A conical ramp wending its way up the sides would produce too steep a gradient. If it were manageable in incline there wouldd be no way to negotiate turns efficiently. It would have to be so wide as to, again, be greater in mass than the pyramid.

Edwards, I.E.S.
The Pyramids of Egypt
Penguin Books Ltd, Middlesex GB, 1947


Aye. Some have suggested that the initial ramp only went up so far, and then lever was put in place to hoist the stones onto the higher courses. The problem with that theory is, they'd have to rebuild the ramp at least twice.



posted on Oct, 6 2006 @ 01:15 PM
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Originally posted by undo
Aye. Some have suggested that the initial ramp only went up so far, and then lever was put in place to hoist the stones onto the higher courses. The problem with that theory is, they'd have to rebuild the ramp at least twice.


so what?

you don't think that the egyptians would be willing to endure that tedium for someone they saw as a living deity?

it makes sense that they'd have to do quite a bit of repetative work to create that engineering marvel without modern technology



posted on Oct, 6 2006 @ 01:36 PM
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Originally posted by madnessinmysoul

Originally posted by undo
Aye. Some have suggested that the initial ramp only went up so far, and then lever was put in place to hoist the stones onto the higher courses. The problem with that theory is, they'd have to rebuild the ramp at least twice.


so what?

you don't think that the egyptians would be willing to endure that tedium for someone they saw as a living deity?

it makes sense that they'd have to do quite a bit of repetative work to create that engineering marvel without modern technology


The problem is, these extra events, are not computed into the overall timing of the construction. I've yet to see a single explanation for the time involved in covering the entire thing in a white limestone casing that was polished, nor the time involved in building the ramp, or prepartory work such as the adminstration of the project, the calculations, the blueprints, and so on.

[edit on 6-10-2006 by undo]



posted on Oct, 6 2006 @ 03:31 PM
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Does anyone know how many blocks in the GP? And have they calculated how many stones would have to be put in place per day in order for the thing to be built in 20 years? And does this include covering it with the polished casing stones (cemented into place) the ramps and all that?

[edit on 6-10-2006 by undo]



posted on Oct, 6 2006 @ 10:12 PM
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Originally posted by undo
Does anyone know how many blocks in the GP? And have they calculated how many stones would have to be put in place per day in order for the thing to be built in 20 years? And does this include covering it with the polished casing stones (cemented into place) the ramps and all that?

[edit on 6-10-2006 by undo]


Yes to the first part... I saw a few engineering sites that worked out the possiblity I will find it if no one beats me to it..

No they only did the actual block count thing... [that I have seen]

Oops here be one... covers all the logistics neccessary for such a project.


In addition to the construction challenges the project posed, it required a sophisticated approach to program and construction management. The project entailed the staging of a remarkable construction undertaking that required the marshaling of vast amounts of materials from all over the Egyptian kingdom; the feeding, housing, and payment of thousands of workers; and the scheduling of the work for timely completion—that is, prior to the death of the pharaoh.




Engineering Requirements



posted on Oct, 7 2006 @ 01:05 AM
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Originally posted by madnessinmysoul
you don't think that the egyptians would be willing to endure that tedium for someone they saw as a living deity?

Actually, less slave-labor was used than most people probably think...A lot of the extra "unskilled" labor was performed by out-of-work farmers during the 3-month innundation season. They're basic wages were paid by "bed-n-board", but they also got some extras such as a bit of various meats, extra beer rations & other payments that they might not be able to afford if they'd otherwise been out of work for 3 months at a time.

It was the "tourists", such as Herodotus (2000 years after the Giza Pyramids!), who simply couldn't conceive that such grand projects could be performed without the use of cruel tyranny for forcing the labor into being perfomed...For example, the movie Cleopatra took Herodotus at his basic word & portrayed Egypt in that manner (Even though most modern historians don't put much faith in Herodotus, because he writes in the "tourist who believes everything his cheaply-paid tour guide says" style). Even though, nearby the Pyramids at Giza, there was unearthed an entire village that collected resources & provided for the basic human needs of the workers who lived there year-round; Those "permanent residents" were the backbone of the skilled labor & a much smaller unskilled workforce which would be enhanced during every flood season.

[edit on 7-10-2006 by MidnightDStroyer]



posted on Oct, 7 2006 @ 12:42 PM
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We're told recently by leading Egyptologists, such as Zahi Hahwas, that 10,000 well treated, non-slave workers labored for 23 years to put 2,300,000 stones together to construct the Great Pyramid. Supposedly every 2.5 minutes a stone was moved to its final position. That's how it would have to work out if they labored 12 hours a day, 100,000 stones per year; 273 per day is about 23 per hour. Even working 24 hours a day, 5.0 minutes per stone would be required to meet the timetable. The earlier idea that it was a seasonal project makes it more incredible.

Evidence of worker dwellings, crew lists, food supply manifests and such have been discovered to back up the claim that 10,000 men did it in the 23 years stated and not extraterrestrials. Ok, how? Additional seasonal workers are acknowledged as being present. Fine. The "average" weight was 2.5 tons (5,000 lbs) equal to a very large automobile or pickup truck, lets say. Some weighed 15 tons and the nine above the King's Chamber were over 44 tons each and there were some 80-ton monsters too. You can almost envision the 2.5-ton limestone blocks happening, but not the big granite stuff. Modern day trials shown on TV to cut, move and raise obelisks copying the best probable ancient methods certainly took time, planning and care. We saw them do it on level ground and it took a lot longer than five minutes. Cutting out a huge obelisks or 80-ton pieces took years.

Planning and prep work, gathering and organization of human resources, and all logistics connected fall within the 23 years period.

The main thing no one ever addresses is the building materials. Forget how they built it. How did they manufacture the building materials? How long did it take to produce the 273 blocks required for each days work?



posted on Oct, 7 2006 @ 03:04 PM
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Originally posted by Cruizer
We're told recently by leading Egyptologists, such as Zahi Hahwas, that 10,000 well treated, non-slave workers labored for 23 years to put 2,300,000 stones together to construct the Great Pyramid. Supposedly every 2.5 minutes a stone was moved to its final position. That's how it would have to work out if they labored 12 hours a day, 100,000 stones per year; 273 per day is about 23 per hour. Even working 24 hours a day, 5.0 minutes per stone would be required to meet the timetable. The earlier idea that it was a seasonal project makes it more incredible.

Actually, Hawass was "told" this by a Civil Engineering consulting firm (Daniel, Mann, Johnson & Mendenhall ), and the link to an article by a member of that firm (the C.O.O.) was provided by Zorgon above. I, too, have provided this link in this thread and in others here at ATS.

The engineers estimated only 2 million stones, averaging 2.5 tons as you said, but the stones in the lower portion of the GP have been observed to be larger than those further up:

We know the blocks are not of uniform dimension—that the lower blocks are thicker by as much as 5 ft (1.5 m) while the thickness drops to 2 ft (0.6 m) or less near the top. Not having a survey of typical sizes, we made a series of calculations based on average sizes (see illustration).

Once the 50th level was reached (out of 210 - at a minimum - levels,) two-thirds of all the stones in the pyramid were already laid:


Inspection of our mathematical model showed that at the point that layer or level 50 had been reached essentially two-thirds of the blocks had been put in place.

So it makes little sense to "average out" how many blocks must be placed per minute over twenty years.

Regarding the number of workers:


Based on our program management approach and our informed guesses we concluded that the total project required an average workforce of 13,200 persons and a peak workforce of 40,000 and that it required two to three years of site preparation, five years of pyramid construction, and two years of ramp removal, decoration, and other ancillary tasks. Assembling a workforce of this size—and feeding it—appear to have been well within the capabilities of the Egyptian economy at that time if the population was in fact 1 million to 1.5 million.

And:

The total labor expended is 36.7 million days, or approximately 131,200 man-years. Thus the average labor force over the 10-year duration of the project is therefore 13,200 men...



Originally posted by Cruizer
Evidence of worker dwellings, crew lists, food supply manifests and such have been discovered to back up the claim that 10,000 men did it in the 23 years stated and not extraterrestrials. Ok, how? Additional seasonal workers are acknowledged as being present. Fine. The "average" weight was 2.5 tons (5,000 lbs) equal to a very large automobile or pickup truck, lets say. Some weighed 15 tons and the nine above the King's Chamber were over 44 tons each and there were some 80-ton monsters too. You can almost envision the 2.5-ton limestone blocks happening, but not the big granite stuff. Modern day trials shown on TV to cut, move and raise obelisks copying the best probable ancient methods certainly took time, planning and care. We saw them do it on level ground and it took a lot longer than five minutes. Cutting out a huge obelisks or 80-ton pieces took years.

Planning and prep work, gathering and organization of human resources, and all logistics connected fall within the 23 years period.

The main thing no one ever addresses is the building materials. Forget how they built it. How did they manufacture the building materials? How long did it take to produce the 273 blocks required for each days work?

About two man-days per block. This includes all man-hours involved, right down to the guys that were constantly sharpening the copper chisels that were used. Shows that a very large portion of the workforce was engaged in carving out these limestone blocks.
Also:


We estimated that a delivery rate of 180 blocks per hour was required from level 50 to level 74 and then used this rate to determine if the ramp size and number of crews were feasible. This seemed possible. We then determined that at the lower level the ramp would be wider and could sustain delivery rates twice this number. Above level 75 the delivery rate drops off because of the smaller number of blocks, so ramp size and crew numbers are reduced. The size of crews can be estimated in various ways. Carrying capacity will ultimately depend on load and distance. We assumed an average crew of 20 men.

Remember, the blocks of the lower levels of the GP are much larger than those higher up.

Please connect us to your information about how it "takes years" to carve out a granite block.

(All quotes above from the link Zorgon provided.)

Harte



posted on Oct, 7 2006 @ 03:39 PM
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Did the engineers include the casing stones, which were polished and glued to the blocks, and had to be dug out of a deep mine to begin with?

Here's an excerpt on the subject of the white limestone:

The finer, white limestone employed in the pyramids and mortuary temples was not as easy to quarry, and had to be found further from the building site. One of the man sources for this limestone was the Muqattam hills on the west bank of the Nile near modern Tura and Maasara. This stone laid buried further from the surface, so tunnels had to be dug in order to reach the actual stone quarry. Sometimes these deposits were as deep as fifty meters, and huge caverns had to be built to reach the quarry. Generally, large chunks of stone were removed, and then finely cut into blocks.

www.touregypt.net...

With a labor force that big, you'd need alot of cooks. The amount of fresh water needed would be immense. Bathrooms and no air freshner (we are told they just dug a little hole in the sand, went potty, and covered it back up. With that many people, it'd be a virtual mine field of crap. I wonder who made the work clothes. On top of resharpening, they'd also need to make new tools, constantly - replacements for broken, lost or stolen ones. Rope makers working, non-stop.



[edit on 7-10-2006 by undo]



posted on Oct, 7 2006 @ 05:15 PM
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This is really interesting too. Here's a site discussing the gypsum mortar and the radio carbon dating of the charcoal and other carbon items found in the gypsum mortar. The first number is the sample number. the second is the age BC. the third number is where the sample was located on the GP:

Sample number
Age BC
Location

10B (charcoal)
3809 +-160
198th course top platform, SW corner

10B (wood)
3101 +-414
198th course top platform, SW corner

06
3090 +-153
25-26 course West side, NW corner

08
3062 +-157
108-109 course West side, NW corner

10A
3020 +-131
198th course top platform, SW corner

14
2998 +-319
5th course South side, SE corner

13
2975 +-168
5th course, SE corner

04
2971 +-120
2nd course core block North side

11
2950 +-164
Top platform, SW corner

05
2929 +-100
2nd course North side, near NW corner

07
2909 +- 97
65th course West side, NW corner

02
2909 +-104
2nd course North side East face 2nd tier

01
2869 +- 94
2nd course North side East end

13
2864 +-362
5th course SE corner

03
2853 +-104
2nd course North face 2nd tier
=====================================

www.cycle-of-time.net...



posted on Oct, 7 2006 @ 09:37 PM
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Sooo it took closer to 1000 years to build?



posted on Oct, 7 2006 @ 09:58 PM
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Undo I'd be careful with that source, it seems a bit off to me.



Gypsum mortar will only work in a desert, yet you need fire to make it. What do you burn in a desert to make enough fire to make all this gypsum mortar?


So, they can move all of those stones there and that's fine but creating a fire? Creating a fire in a desert and he has a problem with that...furthermore hsi source is: "Ibid". What the hell is that?



posted on Oct, 8 2006 @ 12:15 AM
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Originally posted by undo
This is really interesting too. Here's a site discussing the gypsum mortar and the radio carbon dating of the charcoal and other carbon items found in the gypsum mortar.

One thing that is rarely mentioned when referring to RC dating the mortar they used; RC dating is only effective on organic remains & the Egyptians used old wood in their mortar...Since wood was a rarity (they still grew trees along the River Valley, but they still needed to import a lot too; Lebanese Cedar, for example), the Egyptians would be more likely to use the oldest & most already-used wood they could. Therefore some of those RC dates wouldn't be consistant with others, even within the same building project.

That's one of the reasons that Egyptologists tend to not rely on any one source of clues to figure out what really happened. As I mentioned in an earlier post, Egyptology is more like a jigsaw puzzle that has to be pieced together, and to not rely on only one clue to base any theories. This is where the geologist, Robert Shoch, went wrong when he used the theory of "water erosion" to date the Sphinx (& its enclosure) far before its time.

[edit on 8-10-2006 by MidnightDStroyer]



posted on Oct, 8 2006 @ 12:24 AM
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So the older dates may have been from older lebannon cedar trees? what's the life span on those, btw?



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