Has anyone ever heard of Carl Sagan?

"The Demon Haunted World," essentially tells people how stupid they are for ignoring and deriding science, while still believing in a lot of mythological and paranormal nonsense

Well, there goes most of the planet. We are just too stupid for Mr. Sagan's sensibilities. How do these guys get where they are, if almost everyone else believes in mythological and paranormal "nonsense"? Who buys their books if they are so misunderstood and no one agrees with them? What a farce.

[edit on 14-4-2006 by undo]

Sagan also talks about how the human brain still retains the R complex, a portion retained from our reptilian ancestors hundreds of millions of years ago.

Originally posted by undo

Originally posted by benevolent tyrant
His work for NASA and in the role of "educator" were important and, perhaps, unappreciated but his work fine work hasn't been lost on me.

Unappreciated? Are you kidding me? The guy was a millionaire. He had many books read by millions, including his peers. He had his own TV show. He made "Contact" the movie. He took part in many now famous NASA activities. I dare you to name one person on this entire site, who has had as much fame and fortune as Carl Sagan.

So because he was successful and probably worked hard that makes him a bad guy. Sounds like sour grapes. Beats me how someone like Carl Sagan who, wether you like to believe it or not introduced a lot of dummies to science (like me) can be ridiculed for making a living out of it. Becoming famous doing something you love suddenly turns you into somekind of three headed beast judging by a couple of posts here. And unappreciated, yes to some degree i believe so, same as Isaac Asimov (whoops he was also successful).

Cheers
M4S

no, neither one of those men are unappreciated. and neither is sitchin or einstein or the oodles of other famous, intelligent men. that anyone would think so, while they sell more books, movies and other paraphrenalia than we will ever see in our lifetimes, is beyond me. it isn't a matter of sour grapes, it's a matter being realistic. these are rich, famous men. they are not unappreciated. bush, now he's not appreciated by very many people. but these men, they are appreciated. provided they don't call the rest of us blooming idiots.

i did a study once, in defense of jewish people. there was a guy there who was a nazi and a nihilist. he hated jewish people. he said they were stupid. so i whipped out a list of all the famous jewish men and women who are nobel prize winners, famous inventors, famous authors, famous movie stars, famous musicians, the list kept getting longer and longer. it freaked me out. it was right about then i realized they are literally living proof that God exists, because there's simply no way, just one racial group would have that many gifted and talented people, comparatively. It has to be God.

[edit on 14-4-2006 by undo]

Originally posted by undo
no, neither one of those men are unappreciated. and neither is sitchin or einstein or the oodles of other famous, intelligent men. that anyone would think so, while they sell more books, movies and other paraphrenalia than we will ever see in our lifetimes, is beyond me. it isn't a matter of sour grapes, it's a matter being realistic. these are rich, famous men. they are not unappreciated. bush, now he's not appreciated by very many people. but these men, they are appreciated. provided they don't call the rest of us blooming idiots.

being appreciated has nothing to do with how rich or famous you are or how many movies you make, thats called success or lack of
Appreciation is how you are viewed by your peers and the population in general for things you may have done to improve things for the rest of us.
If my wife appreciates me spending my day off cleaning the yard and fixing the water heater she doesnt give me a bundle of cash, but i may get a neck rub or a roast dinner. Now thats what i call appreciation.

You cant equate appreciation and success as the same thing imo.

Thanks for that MJ-12 info.

How deep is your info source? I kinda had some questions on Carl...

As he got later and later in his career there seemed a growing dichotomy between the words coming from his mouth and what his eyes were looking at while relaying the 'official' position...

Yeah. Yeah. I know that sounds strange. I just have some questions, if you have/have access to some deeper insights into Carl.

If you can help... here is fine or U2U. Whatever works for you.

To all who responded, thanks - but,

I had no idea Carl Sagan's name was gonna cause a controversy. Sorry I brought it up.

Originally posted by undo

"The Demon Haunted World," essentially tells people how stupid they are for ignoring and deriding science, while still believing in a lot of mythological and paranormal nonsense

Well, there goes most of the planet. We are just too stupid for Mr. Sagan's sensibilities. How do these guys get where they are, if almost everyone else believes in mythological and paranormal "nonsense"? Who buys their books if they are so misunderstood and no one agrees with them? What a farce.

[edit on 14-4-2006 by undo]

I personally believe that "The Demon Haunted World" should be required reading in every high school in this country.

"Yeah. Yeah. I know that sounds strange. I just have some questions, if you have/have access to some deeper insights into Carl" == golemina

Been absent for awhile, golemina ? Or do you just post where I don't read ?

orionthehunter posted the link to wikipedia on page one. If you want deeper insites,
its pretty good.

For instance the role Sagan played in convincing the Air Force to
dump BlueBook in favor of a Science group (Condon Report).

Or the tribute "To Carl" in the movie "Contact" based upon Sagan's OWN BOOK.

I actually have been mesmerized by his take on the Drake Equation, but I think the Wikipedia
article is wrong as to why Kubrick did not use Carl Sagan in a "prologue" to 2001.


It wasn't about money at all, according to my memory. It was because Sagan
would give away the entire movie plot in only three sentences.

What? Was it your turn to take out the trash today?

>Been absent for awhile, golemina ? Or do you just post where I don't read ?
The rumor is the world is a really big place...

>orionthehunter posted the link to wikipedia on page one. If you want deeper insites, its pretty good.
Personally, I'm not of a big fan of vanilla... Seems to be the only flavor Wiki really carries.

>I actually have been mesmerized by his take on the Drake Equation, but I think the Wikipedia
article is wrong as to why Kubrick did not use Carl Sagan in a "prologue" to 2001.
The Drake Equation... Please! Particularly the Nitwit Paradox... So laughable that its supporters should become regular contributors to the End of Ye Ole Moon Hoax.

>It wasn't about money at all, according to my memory. It was because Sagan
would give away the entire movie plot in only three sentences.

Thanks for your efforts NightWing. I am however looking for the really deep insights... Say something someone really close to Sagan would have on the incredible internal conflict that I saw raging in his eyes in what he believed and what for a huge number of reasons he had to serve up to the public...

Will the Dark Ages NEVER end...

Originally posted by golemina I just have some questions, if you have/have access to some deeper insights into Carl.

Hi Golemina,

If you are looking for some insight into Carl Sagan, you may be interested in one of the biographies about him.

Two that I've read are:
(1) Keay Davidson's “Carl Sagan: A Life” (1999)
(2) William Poundstone in his “Carl Sagan: A Life in the Cosmos” (1999)

Poundstone's book is a rather moving account of Carl Sagan's life and, in particular, of his death.

Both books contain a wealth of information about Carl Sagan's views on SETI and ufology.

Both books are available secondhand for quite a low price on Amazon. See:
www.amazon.com...
www.amazon.com...


If you are really looking into Carl Sagan in depth, you might find the following list of references to discussions of him in various UFO and SETI books to be helpful. (The list is cut and pasted from a draft UFO Chronology that I've previously made available for free on the Internet. That Chronology also includes various other entries for events, reports and papers relevant to Carl Sagan).

Achenbach, Joel in his “Captured by Aliens” (1999) at pages 13-15, 20-23 (in Chapter 1), 51 (in Chapter 4), 52-63 (Chapter 5 generally), 91, 96-100 (in Chapter 8), 106, 107-111 (in Chapter 9), 172-175 (in Chapter 16), 296 (in Chapter 30), 365-369 (in Chapter 36), 374, 377, 386 (in the Notes) of the Simon and Schuster hardback edition.

Baker, Alan in his “The Encyclopaedia of Alien Encounters” (1999) at pages 215-216 (in an entry entitled “Sagan, Carl Edward”) of the Virgin hardback edition.

Benjamin, Marina in her “Rocket Dreams” (2003) at pages 26-27 (in Chapter 1), 216-219 (in Chapter 6) of the Chatto & Windus hardback edition.

Bergreen, Laurence in his “The Quest For Mars” (2000) at pages 9-11 (in Chapter 1), 54 (in Chapter 2), 193-194 (in Chapter 8) of the Harper hardback edition.

Berliner, Don with Galbraith, Marie and Hunees, Antonio in their “UFO Briefing Document” (1995) at page 190-191 (in Part 3 : Quotations, section entitled “Scientists”) of the Dell paperback edition.

Birnes, William in his “The UFO Magazine UFO Encyclopedia” (2004) at pages 277-278 (in an entry entitled “Sagan, Carl”) of the Pocket Books softcover edition.

Blum, Ralph and Blum, Judy in their “Beyond Earth: Man’s Contact with UFOs” (1974) at pages 196-197, 200-205 (in Chapter 17) of the Bantam paperback edition (with the same page numbering in the Corgi paperback edition).

Briazack, Norman and Mennick, Simon in their “The UFO Guidebook” (1978) at pages 178-179 (in the entry entitled “Sagan, Carl”) of the Citadel softcover edition.

Calvin, Melvin in an interview in David W Swift’s “SETI Pioneers : Scientists Talk About Their Search for Extraterrestrial Intelligence” (1990) at page 129 (in the unnumbered chapter entitled “Melvin Calvin”) of the Arizona hardback edition.

Chambers, Howard in his “UFOs for the millions” (1967) at pages 87 (in Chapter 7), 140-141 (in Chapter 11) of the Bell hardcover edition.

Clark, Jerome and Coleman, Loren in their “The Unidentified” (1975) at page 182 (unnumbered section entitled “UFOs: The Mystery in the Machine”, part 3) of the Warner paperback edition.

Darling, David in his “The Extraterrestrial Encyclopedia” (2000) at page 365 (in the entry entitled “Sagan, Carl Edward (1934-96)”) of the Three Rivers softcover edition.

Darling, David in his online encyclopedia, “The Encyclopedia of Astrobiology, Astronomy and Spaceflight” (2003) in the entry entitled “Sagan, Carl Edward (1934-1996)”. The relevant entry is available online at: www.daviddarling.info...

Davidson, Keay in his “Carl Sagan: A Life” (1999) generally, particularly at pages 1-519 of the Wiley softcover edition.

Dean, Jodi in her “Aliens in America” (1998) at pages 58-59 (in Chapter 1), 169 (in Chapter 5) of the Cornell University softcover edition.

Drake, Frank and Dava Sobel in their “Is Anyone Out There?” (1991) at page 47 (in Chapter 3) of the Pocket Books paperback edition.

Druffel, Ann in her “Firestorm : Dr James E McDonald’s Fight for UFO Science” (2003) at pages 231, 236, 242 (in Chapter 9) of the Wild Flower Press softcover edition.

Druyan, Anne in Carl Sagan’s “Billions and Billions” (1998) at pages 227-232 (in the Epilogue) of the Headline softcover edition.

Fitzgerald, Randall in his “The Cosmic Test Tube” (1998) at page 10 (in Section 1) of the Moonlake Media softcover edition.

Forstchen, William in “Making Contact” (1997) (edited by Bill Fawcett) at pages 274-275 (in Section 4) of the Morrow hardback edition.

Fowler, Raymond E in his “The Andreasson Affair: Phase Two” (1982) at pages 196-197 (in Chapter 14) of the Wild Flower Press softcover edition.

Friedman, Stanton T in his “Top Secret – MAJIC” (1997) at pages 136-143 (in Chapter 7) of the Michael O’ Mara hardback edition.

Fuller, John in his “Aliens in the Skies” (1969) at pages 112-113 (in Chapter 3) of the Putnam hardback edition.

Halpern, Paul in his “The Quest For Alien Planets” (1997) at pages 263-264 (in Chapter 8) of the Plenum Trade hardback edition.

Hansen, Terry in his “The Missing Times : News Media Complicity in the UFO Cover-Up” (2000) at page 225 (in Chapter 6) of the Xlibris softcover edition.

Hoagland, Richard in his “The Monuments of Mars” (1987) at pages 205-208, 212-213 (in Chapter 12) of the 1992 revised North Atlantic softcover edition.

Hopkins, Budd and Rainey, Carol in their “Sight Unseen: Science, UFO Invisibility and Transgenic Beings” (2003) at page 450 (in Chapter 27) of the Pocket Star Books paperback edition.

Jacobs, David in his “The UFO Controversy in America” (1975) at pages 218-219 (in Chapter 8) of the Indiana hardback edition, pages 193-194 of the Signet paperback edition.

Kanon, Gregory M in his “The Great UFO Hoax” (1997) at pages 1, 2 (in Chapter 1) of the Galde Press softcover edition.

Lorenzen, Coral and Lorenzen, Jim in their “UFOs: The Whole Story” (1969) at pages 106 and 107 (in Chapter 3) of the Signet paperback edition.

Morrison, Philip in an interview in David W Swift’s “SETI Pioneers : Scientists Talk About Their Search for Extraterrestrial Intelligence” (1990) at page 42 (in the unnumbered chapter entitled “Philip Morrison”) of the Arizona hardback edition.

Nixon, Neil in his “Pocket Essentials : UFOs” (2002) at page 13 (in Chapter 1) of the Pocket Essentials softcover edition.

Oliver, Bernard M in an interview in David W Swift’s “SETI Pioneers : Scientists Talk About Their Search for Extraterrestrial Intelligence” (1990) at page 111 (in the unnumbered chapter entitled “Bernard M Oliver”) of the Arizona hardback edition.

Poundstone, William in his “Carl Sagan: A Life in the Cosmos” (1999)generally, particularly at pages xiii-xviii (in the Foreword), 3-447 of the Owl Books softcover edition.

Rhodes, Ron in his “Alien Obsession: What Lies Behind Abductions, Sightings and the Attraction to the Paranormal” (1998) at page 36 (in Chapter 2) of the Harvest House softcover edition.

Rux, Bruce in his “Architects of the Underworld” (1996) at page 55 (in Chapter 2) of the Frog softcover edition.

Sachs, Margaret in her “The UFO Encyclopedia” (1980) at pages 273-274 (in an entry entitled “Sagan, Carl”) of the Corgi softback edition.

Sheaffer, Robert in his “The UFO Verdict” (1980) at page 134 (in Chapter 13) of the Prometheus softback edition.

Sheaffer, Robert in his “UFO Sightings: The Evidence” (1998) at page 177 (in Chapter 12) of the Prometheus hardback edition.

Shermer, Michael in his “The Borderlands of Science” (2001) at page 217 (in Chapter 10) of the Oxford University Press hardback edition.

Shklovskii, Iosif in his “Five Billion Vodka Bottles to the Moon” (1991) at page 252 (in Chapter 24) of the Norton hardback edition.

Story, Ronald in “The Encyclopedia of Extraterrestrial Encounters” (2001) (edited by Ronald Story) at pages 516-517 (in an entry entitled “Sagan, Carl”) of the New American Library softcover edition, at pages 505-506 of the pdf edition (with the same page numbering in the Microsoft Word edition).

Story, Ronald in “The Encyclopedia of UFOs” (1980) (edited by Ronald Story) at pages 312-313 (in an entry entitled “Sagan, Carl (Edward)”) of the NEL hardback edition.

Story, Ronald in “The Mammoth Encyclopedia of Extraterrestrial Encounters” (2001) (edited by Ronald Story) at pages 620-622 (in an entry entitled “Sagan, Carl”) of the Robinson softcover edition.

Swift, David W in his “SETI Pioneers : Scientists Talk About Their Search for Extraterrestrial Intelligence” (1990) at pages 209-225 (in the unnumbered chapter entitled “Carl Sagan”) of the Arizona hardback edition.

Tarter, Jill Cornell in an interview in David W Swift’s “SETI Pioneers : Scientists Talk About Their Search for Extraterrestrial Intelligence” (1990) at page 376 (in the unnumbered chapter entitled “Jill Cornell Tarter”) of the Arizona hardback edition.

Tonnies, Mac in his “After the Martian Apocalypse” (2004) at pages 102-104 (in Chapter 4), 250 (in Chapter 11) of the Paraview Pocket Books softcover edition.

Transcript of interview about SETI presented by White, Frank in his “The SETI Factor” (1990) at pages 195-200 (in Appendix A) of the Walker hardback edition.

Von Buttlar, Johannes in his “The UFO Phenomenon” (1980) at pages 183-184 (in Chapter 15) of the Book Club Associates hardback edition.

Wilson, Colin in his “Alien Dawn” (1998) at pages 255, 256 (in Chapter 8) of the Virgin softcover edition (with the same page numbering in the Virgin paperback edition).

X, Commander in his “The Ultimate Deception” (1990) at page 37 (in the unnumbered chapter entitled “Behind the Mask of John Lear”) of the Abelard softcover edition.


Kind Regards,

Isaac Koi

Issac, thanks for all the "carl" info. I'm gonna be lookin for some of it this weekend.

Holy cow. I feel that we have just been debriefed.

Has anyone ever heard of Carl Sagan???



Okay - I'm officially old. Billions and billions in the Carl Sagan delivery was a standard "funny line" when I was young.

I'm changing my siggie right now - to read like a button some smart-alec youngster gave me today.

I have no axe to grind with Sagan since he did bring the cosmos to the masses and for the most part he seemed a sincere science type guy. He never seemed perjorative and I respect that.

All the same he does have the scientific community's hangup that if something is out there it is gonna come to us in a fashion that we find acceptable and since I speak for all of humanity they are gonna come to us scientists first.

That is a bit of a loaded premise in my opinion just like how he talks about abduction. He readily agrees that these people's emotional states are legit but because they cannot produce the proof he prefers then they are merely psychotic. Frankly, for a science guy that is a bit of a stretch I think.

The place of Sagan is assured in that he helped bridge the gap between the common guy and our modern scientific community and in general he never talked down to the same average dude. But Mr. Sagan was still a scientist with all the baggage and bias that they are wont to have.

Somebody get that kid a copy of the Cosmos series of videotapes so he can learn to say "Billions and Billions" just like the rest of us.

I miss Carl. Several in here have already said...most everybody knows about Carl. I believe his efforts to explain cosmology to us average people was and still is a national treasure.
I really liked the way he said "Billions and Billions" already mentioned above. Carl was modest in his public persona and I can't imagine he was otherwise in private.
Carl was one of the good ones and "Contact" was a milestone in science fiction.
People like carl kind of makes me wich there really was a place like the imagined and wished for, heaven so if we didn't get enough of someone, we could get more at some point. He left us with so much before the cancer took him.
F#@& cancer and the horse it rode in on.
sayswho (skep by any other name)

Originally posted by Enkidu
Sagan was an MJ-12 (Majestic Foundation) member who handled a lot of the "face work" for the organization in their attempts to see if the general public was ready for disclosure of alien interaction with Earth. The Majestic Foundation filled Sagan's empty chair with Andrew Chaikin in 1998.

Very interesting remarks. Can you deliver some pointers to documentation to corroborate this information?