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POLITICS: Military disgusted with Rumsfeld

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df1

posted on Apr, 14 2006 @ 10:34 AM
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SeekerOf,
The unbelievable is that you paint these heros as nothing more than bit players in a cast of thousands, when in fact they are the best and brightest the military had to offer, as is evidenced by the positions they held.

  • Newbold, the former operations director for the Joint Chiefs of Staff.
  • Zinni, the previous head of U.S. Central Command.
  • Eaton, ran the program to train the Iraqi military.
  • Shinseki served the Deputy Chief of Staff for Support.
  • Batiste, commanded the 1st Infantry Division in Iraq.

These guys definitely deserve to be called heros for repudiating the bush administration.


ChemicalLaser
In any case, it would appear that the voters of ATSNN have a lot of tolerance for mediocrity.

And as repeatedly proven by you, SeekerOf and the rest of the ATS faux patriots cabal, the posters on ATS are also impressed by disinformation and distortion of facts. It seems to me that you boys need to rise up a couple notches to reach the level of mediocrity. My expectations of your success is low.




posted on Apr, 14 2006 @ 11:26 AM
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Originally posted by df1

ChemicalLaser
In any case, it would appear that the voters of ATSNN have a lot of tolerance for mediocrity.

And as repeatedly proven by you, SeekerOf and the rest of the ATS faux patriots cabal, the posters on ATS are also impressed by disinformation and distortion of facts.


What the heck are you talking about?!!? ATS faux patriots cabal? Are you suggesting that my criticism is an endorsement of Rumsfeld? Perhaps you missed this:


Originally posted by ChemicalLaser
All that said, this is a important story, but the writing is horrible. The dictionary is your friend.


Perhaps a retraction is in order?



posted on Apr, 14 2006 @ 12:52 PM
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Originally posted by df1
These guys definitely deserve to be called heros for repudiating the bush administration.

Just as those that are countering them, huh, df1?
Simply why I suggested that you look up the word: hero.





And as repeatedly proven by you, SeekerOf and the rest of the ATS faux patriots cabal, the posters on ATS are also impressed by disinformation and distortion of facts. It seems to me that you boys need to rise up a couple notches to reach the level of mediocrity. My expectations of your success is low.

The problem here is that you can not handle the truth, df1.


They are but six of a near thousand of "the best and brightest the military [has] to offer." And the cream of the crop at the time that these 6 were in was Tommy Franks, and as I said, I agree 100% with what Tommy Franks said about them. Obviously, you do not.
Question, after Rumsfeld squashed their toes and they opted (more like forced) to retire, 6 (minus) 900 or so other generals leaves how many left of the "best and brightest the military [has] to offer"?





seekerof

[edit on 14-4-2006 by Seekerof]



posted on Apr, 14 2006 @ 01:12 PM
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Originally posted by df1
SeekerOf,
The unbelievable is that you paint these heros as nothing more than bit players in a cast of thousands, when in fact they are the best and brightest the military had to offer, as is evidenced by the positions they held.

  • Newbold, the former operations director for the Joint Chiefs of Staff.
  • Zinni, the previous head of U.S. Central Command.
  • Eaton, ran the program to train the Iraqi military.
  • Shinseki served the Deputy Chief of Staff for Support.
  • Batiste, commanded the 1st Infantry Division in Iraq.

These guys definitely deserve to be called heros for repudiating the bush administration.




Hey I have respect for some but not all of the military generals. But for example Batiste who formerly commanded the 1st Infantry Division in Iraq is pretty much a hypocrite. We are concentrating on criticizing the Secretary of Defense himself when these generals were also involve in the operations of Iraq.

Let me show you.

www.defensetech.org...

I met Batiste a year ago when he was commander of the 1st Infantry Division in Iraq. We spoke for an hour about the insurgency, the Iraqi Army and the upcoming January election for an interim national assembly.

The difference between Batiste's attitude then and his attitude now is suprising. Last year, he said the insurgency was "not an impressive effort", insisted that Al Qaeda was behind the worst attacks in Iraq and predicted that everday Iraqis would soon turn against insurgents. And the kicker -- he described the chunk of the World Trade Center that he kept in his office to remind himself why we had to invade Iraq.

From the safety of retirement, and with his buddies watching his back, Batiste has lashed out at Rumsfeld. But Batiste is guilty of lapses in judgement just as gross as Rumsfeld's. The only difference is that Rumsfeld ranks higher, so his lapses have greater consequences. I'm not defending Rummy. But if Batiste were Secretary of Defense instead, I doubt we'd be much better off.

Below are excerpts of my interview with Batiste:

Q: What is the insurgent strategy?

BATISTE: I haven't seen an insurgent strategy. I've seen disparate efforts. A piece of me says that we give them too much credit.

Q: What is the gravest threat [in the 1st Infantry Division area of operations]?

BATISTE: Al Qaeda.

Q: How are Iraqi security forces shaping up?

BATISTE: The enemy ... he's a coward, is what he is. It's not an impressive effort, and these great Iraqi security forces are figuring that out.

Q: What does a successful election mean for Iraq?

BATISTE: A good election is a huge victory. Our challenge is to give Iraqis an alternative to an insurgency. You know, I carry a piece of the World Trade Center ... to remind me why we're here.

Q: Why are we here?

BATISTE: To end radical Islamic fundamentalism.

Q: But wasn't Saddam Hussein's regime hostile to radical Islamists?

BATISTE: We could argue about that all night.

[end of interview]

--David Axe


It looks like Batiste has some explaining to do as well.

[edit on 14-4-2006 by deltaboy]



posted on Apr, 14 2006 @ 01:20 PM
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Originally posted by Seekerof

The problem here is that you can not handle the truth, df1.
:


And you can? You have been on these forums trying to justify everything Bush does for years. Common Seekerof when is enough, enough? Are you ever going to ever put your country before you political beliefs?

Let’s see no wmd, an Iraq policy that has failed. An administration that leaked the name of a CIA agent for to cover it’s lie. Torture! Rummy is a traitor, the whole administration is filled with traitors. So why do you keep defending them? You always have such educated arguments on other threads expect the ones defending the Bush administration. You are to smart to still be defending them, most who use to defend them have stopped. But not you, are you being paid to defend them?



posted on Apr, 14 2006 @ 01:27 PM
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I would think that has been made pretty obvious by now...



posted on Apr, 14 2006 @ 01:47 PM
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Originally posted by DiRtYDeViL
And you can? You have been on these forums trying to justify everything Bush does for years. Common Seekerof when is enough, enough? Are you ever going to ever put your country before you political beliefs?

I have stated by disbeliefs and beliefs on many things concerning Bush.
The problem here is that I am criticized for "justifying" many things. Why is that since I am not the only one doing such? "Enough is enough" is a rhetorical trope, best utilized elsewhere. You ask "when"? Umm, being that I have served within my nation's military apparatus, I have put my country before my political beliefs. You?





Let’s see no wmd,

No large quantities or none period?




an Iraq policy that has failed.

The Fat Lady has not finished singing, thus your conclusion of "failed' is inconclusive and subjective.




An administration that leaked the name of a CIA agent for to cover it’s lie.

Key word there: "leaked.'
The adminsitration did not "leak."





Torture! Rummy is a traitor, the whole administration is filled with traitors.

Look up the word "traitor," democrat.




So why do you keep defending them?

Umm, I love to piss you guys off?
I like defending the side that the majority is against?
I like the guy.





You always have such educated arguments on other threads expect the ones defending the Bush administration. You are to smart to still be defending them, most who use to defend them have stopped. But not you, are you being paid to defend them?

Yeah, I had a very good ATS friend, Bout Time, tell me the same thing, but he never accused me of being paid to defend them. Despite the debates that he and I had engaged in, I guess he understood something about respect, and arguing self-convictions and political beliefs that some of you have not, especially when accusing someone of being 'paid" to defend, eh?





seekerof

[edit on 14-4-2006 by Seekerof]



posted on Apr, 14 2006 @ 02:32 PM
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To continue with the topic...
I have a very close friend who was a Lt. Col. in the Army at the time of 911, in fact he was stationed right at the Pentagon. He was a life-long Republican, voted for Bush, etc.
He retired 3 years earlier (before he might have made full Col. to get a higher pension) than he had planned, because he finally got so disgusted with BushCo and with Rumsfeld in particular.
The word is Rumsfeld is at the very least, incompetent.

BTW, those 6 generals didn't get their by not being patriots. They believe in their country, love their country and swore to always defend the Constitution, same as all military personnel. Do you really think that they would suddenly start doing thing to harm the USA? No, they are doing what they think is best and that is speaking out.
BTW, Seekerof, these 6 generals were whistleblowers. How many folks are willing to be whistleblowers anywhere? Damn few. Seems like if you can find 6 people in 1,000 who will actually speak out against a supervisor, you're doing well.
The vast majority of time, people buckle under to fear - which is how Hitler came to power with his fearmongering. How many Germans spoke out against the atrocities?? Is this what's happening in our country right now?



posted on Apr, 14 2006 @ 02:50 PM
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Originally posted by forestlady
BTW, those 6 generals didn't get their by not being patriots. They believe in their country, love their country and swore to always defend the Constitution, same as all military personnel. Do you really think that they would suddenly start doing thing to harm the USA? No, they are doing what they think is best and that is speaking out.

Are they now?
No agenda to it all, huh?
Questions: why is that they have waited till they were out of the military to really begin their dive into publically calling for Rumsfeld's resignation? Why didn't they simply do what real "patriots" would have done and called for Rummy's resignition while they were still in?




BTW, Seekerof, these 6 generals were whistleblowers.

"Whistleblowers" are people who expose something while they are still in service, be it the military or government. They are retired, thus are not "whistleblowers."




How many folks are willing to be whistleblowers anywhere? Damn few.

And those "damn few" were considered "whistleblowers" because they were still employed by the government and military. See above: these guys are retired. They are nothing but agenda-ridden glorified 15 minutes of fame go getters. I do find it ironic that you have not mentioned those retired generals that have denied the assertions of these 6 retired 'whistleblowing' generals. Would they be "patriotic" and "whistleblowers," as well?




Seems like if you can find 6 people in 1,000 who will actually speak out against a supervisor, you're doing well.

Not to mention those few generals that are defending Rummy, as well, huh?




The vast majority of time, people buckle under to fear - which is how Hitler came to power with his fearmongering. How many Germans spoke out against the atrocities?? Is this what's happening in our country right now?

Oh, so that is your line of reasoning for why no more than 6 of 900+ generals in the military have not come forward and criticized Rummy? I see....not.






seekerof

[edit on 14-4-2006 by Seekerof]



posted on Apr, 14 2006 @ 02:58 PM
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Yes is a growing dissatisfaction against Mr. Rumsfeld and the war in Iraq.

One thing is to have high ranking military [Retired] doing the voicing of dissatisfaction but also more and more active duty soldiers are also letting their thoughts been heard.

Now not Active duty high ranking officer will complain taking in consideration that any body that voice anything against the administration war capabilities and mistakes has to resign or be persecute in acts of revenge.


Occurs Mr. Rumsfeld said that he has put his resignation to Mr. Bush but Mr. Bush would not accepted.


Somebody has to be the fall gay, and we don't have Powell anymore to take the position.



posted on Apr, 14 2006 @ 03:07 PM
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Originally posted by marg6043
Now not Active duty high ranking officer will complain taking in consideration that any body that voice anything against the administration war capabilities and mistakes has to resign or be persecute in acts of revenge.


But would not the real and true "patriotic" thing to have been done would have been to voice your dissent and condemnation, along with your "professional" call for Rummy's resignation, while still in the military?

A "patriot" or one doing "the right thing" does so no matter the cost to his career, thus a "patriot" does not fear being persecuted or threatened with resignation, Marg.






seekerof

[edit on 14-4-2006 by Seekerof]



posted on Apr, 14 2006 @ 03:15 PM
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You know even my husband still with his Military mentality condemn the public voicing against Rumsfeld.

Is unbecoming to a soldier to do that.

I guess that is the reason why retired military are doing the voicing and very loud indeed.

But our military is changing, and loyalties are running thin, when it comes to family with members in Iraq.

That makes also active duty personnel starting to voice their disappointments as well.

When my husband was in the service that would give you a court martial.

But not so much in this day and time.



posted on Apr, 14 2006 @ 03:24 PM
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news.bbc.co.uk...

Bush rebuffs attack on Rumsfeld

Donald Rumsfeld

Rumsfeld has been accused of ignoring advice from commanders
US President George W Bush has assured Defence Secretary Donald Rumsfeld of his "full support" in the wake of criticism by retired generals.

In a statement, the president rejected calls for Mr Rumsfeld to step down.

Mr Bush praised Mr Rumsfeld for his "energetic and steady leadership" during his years at the Pentagon.

Six retired generals have spoken out against Mr Rumsfeld's handling of the war in Iraq and apparent disdain for experienced military commanders.

The BBC's Jane Little in Washington says it is highly unusual for Mr Bush to issue a statement from his Camp David retreat, where he is on holiday - but pressure is mounting on Mr Rumsfeld and the administration.

The defence secretary has also personally rebuffed suggestions that he resign.



posted on Apr, 14 2006 @ 03:41 PM
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Seekerof yes or no your sounding like rummy.



posted on Apr, 14 2006 @ 03:57 PM
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I like Rummy. The guy is a no-nonsense playa. Just ask those 6 ex-generals.
My answer is self-evident.


He is tough and approaches his critics head-on.
Here's Nixon's view from 30 years ago: "...At least Rummy is tough enough. He's a ruthless little bastard to be sure of that..."
Source


Or for those like you, DD:
I like Rummy and my answer is self-evident because...
*He gets things done.
*He takes no BS.
*He has cahones.
*He gives back what he is given: He hurls back insults given to him by reporters.
*He pisses off the media, democrats, and far-left liberals.
*The media wants him fired.
*The democrats want him fired.
*The far liberal left wants him fired.

Now that is one tough dude. Gotta like him. God Bless, Rummy.





seekerof

[edit on 14-4-2006 by Seekerof]



posted on Apr, 14 2006 @ 04:04 PM
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Liberals are against anyone or anything with balls!

Can anyone figure out why 99% of liberals do not like Don Rumsfeld?



posted on Apr, 14 2006 @ 04:04 PM
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Reason I keep bringing it up is Rummy, your hero has paid for stories in Iraq newspapers favorable to the Military. I wouldn't surprised if he pays people to post in internet forums either. So just admit the obvious.



posted on Apr, 14 2006 @ 04:09 PM
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Originally posted by DiRtYDeViL
Reason I keep bringing it up is Rummy, your hero has paid for stories in Iraq newspapers favorable to the Military. I wouldn't surprised if he pays people to post in internet forums either. So just admit the obvious.


Dirtydevil who do you want to win the war? ? ?



posted on Apr, 14 2006 @ 04:20 PM
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Originally posted by Low Orbit
Dirtydevil who do you want to win the war? ? ?



What war? oh, you mean Bushes war right? yes we want Rumsfeld to win the war.


I want Rumsfeld to stand in the front lines and take it like a man.


BTW I thought Bush already claimed victory. . . it was all over the news in a nice boat and in uniform.
I



posted on Apr, 14 2006 @ 04:33 PM
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Originally posted by Low Orbit
Dirtydevil who do you want to win the war? ? ?


This isn't a war it's a racket. How do we benefit from the Iraq war? Have gas prices gone down? Hell no they use it as an excuse to raise it. I just want it to stop we aren't going to win it because there is nothing to win. Arabs aren't like us, Iraq will be in the hands of head choppin radical Muslems no matter what we do. I'm a realist. Oh and back to the topic at hand.

I have a better way for the Bush Slime to discredit these generals. Just say it's a bunch of Generals trying to sell their books. Cause in their interviews all of them had a new book about Rummy and Iraq. So now within the week when you hear my propaganda being broadcasted on abc because the it's just a few out of the thousands of generals isn't working we will know the truth about Seek



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