So OBVIOUS they planted Flight 93 debris it's laughable!

Originally posted by SMR


Does anyone here carry around OLD EXPIRED driver's license

As far as I can tell, it was issued 9-1-92 and expired 8-31-98

The one belonging to CeeCee Lyles was issued 12-2-97 and expires 11-25-03 which is fine.But Mr. Talignani was carrying around his that was just about 3 years old.

Isn't that proof it wasn't planted? If it had been they'd have made sure it was a current licence.

Some folk do carry all manner of out of date stuff in their wallets. I often have old train tickets from years ago.....!

Originally posted by Killtown


Exh. GX-P200068 (intr'd: 04/11/2006)
Photograph of the driver's license of John Talignani found at the scene in Somerset County, Pennsylvania, where Flight 93 crashed.

www.rcfp.org...

This is odd. This driver's license with this address is no where in Florida's DMV database. Instead, the only driver's license listed (which is the same driver's license number as in the pic - T425473273110) has an address of 305 Ridge Creek Blvd, Ocoee, FL 34761 - WHICH IS NOT A VALID ADDRESS. Further to that, the Florida DMV database shows the driver's license with the Ridge Creek Blvd address to be issued on June 23, 1998.

Florida seems to do everything screwy, so assuming they do something logical like other states probably isn't a good assumption, but I've never been able to get a re-newed driver's license without turning in the old one. One could assume that he lost the old one and then found it later, but it's weird to carry an expired driver's license when you have a valid, new one. But the major point here is that Mr. Talignani does not show up in the Florida database with Huntsman Lane, Port Richey, Fl address ANYWHERE...he only shows up with the Ocoee - NONEXISTENT address.

But to complicate the situation further, John Talignani, according to Jere Longman's Among the Heroes was supposed to be living in Manhattan at the time he boarded Flight 93. So now we have to assume he lost this driver's license (which doesn't even exist in the Florida DMV database), got it renewed (with a Florida address that doesn't exist), and then kept a non-existent, expired Florida driver's license as some sort of souvenir while living in Manhattan.

That's a weird pile of incongruities, now isn't it?

I really don't see how you can come to that conclusion based on some photo's. Just like the bin laden video which a lot of people claim to be false based on 1 photo. If oyu look at the rest of the tape, you see that this is Bin Laden actually. And than you have Steven E. Jones who says he did research on that picture. He didnt have to do research on that 1 picture. He just had to look at the entire tape to see that it is Bin Laden.

How about you do research on this picture steven jones:





www.september11news.com...

[edit on 14-4-2006 by Louis255]

I live in Florida, and you used to be able to send in a renewal, and they send you sticker to put on the 'back' of the license. I am pretty sure that only recently they have made it mandatory to get one of the new 'hologram licenses.


As far as the address, it is quite common if the person lived in a mobile retirement community or a new subdivision for the address to come back as not valid.

I mean, realize that weeks ago they jsut found more remains from 9/11 on a rooftop in NY. Things remain after tragic events.

Originally posted by MadGreebo

I feel for the families involved, but even the fact that using a cell phoone from the plane has been proved to be impossible, because in 2004 the airline industry itself said it had solved the technical difficulties of doing so! so how the hell in 2001 did they manage this???

One *could* always utilise cellular telephones on airplanes; from the air, because of the range radius, one's phone signals reach scores of cellular towers. Not utilising a cellular telephone on a plane was because the frequency of the cell signal could, ostensibly, interfere with some instruments in the cockpit. Mythbusters did a great show on this.


As for the Flight 93 issue: Is it possible something different happened? Sure. But it isn't very likely ... 9/11 and its aftermath have been put under a microscope by enough people that I cannot seriously consider some grand conspiracy.
Also, it is unlikely for there to be blood -- the passengers were likely dead for a lengt of time before impact, and the plane most likely disintegrated before impact ... Planes are quite fragile things, and the metal bodies aren't solid -- they will rip up and fall apart; they are design to move in a very specific path through fluid (air) and any deviation will mangle and destroy the fuselage.

Originally posted by MadGreebo

I feel for the families involved, but even the fact that using a cell phoone from the plane has been proved to be impossible, because in 2004 the airline industry itself said it had solved the technical difficulties of doing so! so how the hell in 2001 did they manage this???

This is misinformation. In fact, a lot of those so called " facts " from the Loose Change docu's are not true.

www.sandiegometro.com...




[edit on 14-4-2006 by Louis255]

So what do you people think happened to the planes fuselage when it hit the ground:

A) It hit, and for some mysterious reason never caught on fire or exploded

or

B) It hit, exploded, and sent debris all over the area

The black box recordings for Flight 93 records all the way up to the time that Flight 93 officially crashed at 10:03:09.

Accordingly, in re-re-reading it, there are no given indications that Flight 93 was hit by anything that would have brought it down. Does anyone not think that if the plane had been hit or shot down, at least one of the hijackers would have noticed and/or said something?

10:00:09 – (When they all come, we finish it off.)
10:00:11 – (There is nothing.)
10:00:13 – Unintelligible.
10:00:14 – Ahh.
10:00:15 – I’m injured.
10:00:16 – Unintelligible.
10:00:21 – Ahh.
10:00:22 – (Oh Allah. Oh Allah. Oh gracious.)
10:00:25 – In the cockpit. If we don’t, we’ll die.
10:00:29 – (Up, down. Up, down, in the) cockpit.
10:00:33 – (The) cockpit.
10:00:37 – (Up, down. Saeed, up, down.)
10:00:42 – Roll it.
10:00:55 – Unintelligible.
10:00:59 – (Allah is the greatest. Allah is the greatest.)
10:01:01 – Unintelligible.
10:01:08 – (Is that it? I mean, shall we pull it down?)
10:01:09 – (Yes, put it in it, and pull it down.)
10:01:10 – Unintelligible.
10:01:11 – (Saeed.)
10:01:12 – ... engine ...
10:01:13 – Unintelligible.
10:01:16 – (Cut off the oxygen.)
10:01:18 – (Cut off the oxygen. Cut off the oxygen. Cut off the oxygen.)
10:01:34 – Unintelligible.
10:01:37 – Unintelligible.
10:01:41 – (Up, down. Up, down.)
10:01:41 – (What?)
10:01:42 – (Up, down.)
10:01:42 – Ahh.
10:01:53 – Ahh.
10:01:54 – Unintelligible.
10:01:55 – Ahh.
10:01:59 – Shut them off.
10:02:03 – Shut them off.
10:02:14 – Go.
10:02:14 – Go.
10:02:15 – Move.
10:02:16 – Move.
10:02:17 – Turn it up.
10:02:18 – (Down, down.)
10:02:23 – (Pull it down. Pull it down.)
10:02:25 – Down. Push, push, push, push, push.
10:02:33 – (Hey. Hey. Give it to me. Give it to me.)
10:02:35 – (Give it to me. Give it to me. Give it to me.)
10:02:37 – (Give it to me. Give it to me. Give it to me.)
10:02:40 – Unintelligible.
10:03:02 – (Allah is the greatest.)
10:03:03 – (Allah is the greatest.)
10:03:04 – (Allah is the greatest.)
10:03:06 – (Allah is the greatest.)
10:03:06 – (Allah is the greatest.)
10:03:07 – No.
10:03:09 – (Allah is the greatest. Allah is the greatest.)
10:03:09 – (Allah is the greatest. Allah is the greatest.)

What the above does indicate to me is that there was a serious struggle going on between them and the passengers prior to the plane crashing, with no verbal indication of the aircraft being taken down.






seekerof

[edit on 14-4-2006 by Seekerof]

Oops wrong thread, I thought this was the one about the shooting down - my bad...

[edit on 14-4-2006 by AgentSmith]

Originally posted by esdad71
I live in Florida, and you used to be able to send in a renewal, and they send you sticker to put on the 'back' of the license. I am pretty sure that only recently they have made it mandatory to get one of the new 'hologram licenses.


As far as the address, it is quite common if the person lived in a mobile retirement community or a new subdivision for the address to come back as not valid.

esdad, Thank you! These explanations clear up virtually every weird area I referenced.

I was going to stay away from this thread but, to play devil's advocate. Seekerof...what about all the unintelligibles? How can we be certain with all that information either not known or not released. Also, I thought the crash time was 10:06 not 10:03. I'm not sure if this has been debunked or not.

Originally posted by Griff
Also, I thought the crash time was 10:06 not 10:03. I'm not sure if this has been debunked or not.

Hi Griff.
I am only going by the time data from Flight 93's black box.
Does a black box recorder stop recording prior to an aircraft crashing or after?

Of interest:

"According to the 9/11 Commission Won-Young Kim later retracted his conclusion that Flight 93 crashed at 10:06. The Commission Report states that Flight 93 crashed at 10:03, and provides the following footnote.

"168. Ibid., pp. 23-27. We also reviewed a report regarding seismic observations on September 11, 2001, whose authors conclude that the impact time of United 93 was 10:06:05 am (EDT). Won-Young Kim and G. R. Baum, "Seismic Observations during September 11, 2001, Terrorist Attack," spring 2002 (report to the Maryland Department of Natural Resources). But the seismic data on which they based this estimate are far too weak in signal-to-noise ratio and far too speculative in terms of signal source to be used as a means of contradicting the impact time established by the very accurate combination of FDR, CVR, ATC, radar, and impact site data sets. These data sets constrain United 93's impact time to within 1 second, are airplane- and crash-site specific, and are based on time codes automatically recorded in the ATC audiotapes for the FAA centers and correlated with each data set in a process internationally accepted within the aviation accident investigation community. Furthermore, one of the study's principal authors now concedes that "seismic data is not definitive for the impact of UA 93." Email from Won-Young Kim to the Commission," Re: UA Flight 93," July 7, 2004; see also Won-Young Kim, "Seismic Observations for UA Flight 93 Crash near Shanksville, Pennsylvania during September 11, 2001," July 5, 2004.

"All of the sources that the Report cites to support its claim of a crash time of 10:06 are apparently unavailable for public inspection, including Kim's 2004 paper, for which one will search in vain on the web. The " FDR, CVR, ATC, radar, and impact site data sets" cited by the Report all remain unavailable to the public. This contrasts with Kim and Baum's 2002 paper, which documents its case for the 10:06 crash time."

Source1
Source2





seekerof

[edit on 14-4-2006 by Seekerof]

Exactly Griff. We can only investigate official document releases to a point. After that we must remember that what the government leads us to believe is not always the gospel truth.

Train stubs are not used for ID purposes Im afraid.
The renewal sticker makes sense though I guess.I never got one here in CA but do they do do that.
What strikes me though is no mension at all of this guy living in Florida at all.Also, you can see from the story, he lived in an apartment, not some mobile retirement community.At least thats the last we know of him living in.
He took off from NY.
Also, I do not know this, but is it allowed that you can have drivers license for different states? I know that after 3 years of moving from one state to another you have to get the state you live-ins' license.Kinda like your car license plate.After 3 years you have to get it to match the state you are in.

Originally posted by Frosty
So what do you people think happened to the planes fuselage when it hit the ground:

A) It hit, and for some mysterious reason never caught on fire or exploded

or

B) It hit, exploded, and sent debris all over the area

C) It never hit.

Originally posted by Seekerof

Hi Griff.
I am only going by the time data from Flight 93's black box.
Does a black box recorder stop recording prior to an aircraft crashing or after?

Of interest:

"According to the 9/11 Commission Won-Young Kim later retracted his conclusion that Flight 93 crashed at 10:06. The Commission Report states that Flight 93 crashed at 10:03, and provides the following footnote.

"168. Ibid., pp. 23-27. We also reviewed a report regarding seismic observations on September 11, 2001, whose authors conclude that the impact time of United 93 was 10:06:05 am (EDT). Won-Young Kim and G. R. Baum, "Seismic Observations during September 11, 2001, Terrorist Attack," spring 2002 (report to the Maryland Department of Natural Resources). But the seismic data on which they based this estimate are far too weak in signal-to-noise ratio and far too speculative in terms of signal source to be used as a means of contradicting the impact time established by the very accurate combination of FDR, CVR, ATC, radar, and impact site data sets. These data sets constrain United 93's impact time to within 1 second, are airplane- and crash-site specific, and are based on time codes automatically recorded in the ATC audiotapes for the FAA centers and correlated with each data set in a process internationally accepted within the aviation accident investigation community. Furthermore, one of the study's principal authors now concedes that "seismic data is not definitive for the impact of UA 93." Email from Won-Young Kim to the Commission," Re: UA Flight 93," July 7, 2004; see also Won-Young Kim, "Seismic Observations for UA Flight 93 Crash near Shanksville, Pennsylvania during September 11, 2001," July 5, 2004.

"All of the sources that the Report cites to support its claim of a crash time of 10:06 are apparently unavailable for public inspection, including Kim's 2004 paper, for which one will search in vain on the web. The " FDR, CVR, ATC, radar, and impact site data sets" cited by the Report all remain unavailable to the public. This contrasts with Kim and Baum's 2002 paper, which documents its case for the 10:06 crash time."

Source1
Source2





seekerof

[edit on 14-4-2006 by Seekerof]

So what are you trying to say here? It's nice to read the quote that seems to say two different things, but what are you trying to say?

No, a recorder should not stop recording prior to a crash unless the power is disrupted - either by crash or other means. Two different seismic groups (including the seismic group commissioned by the Pentagon) established the crash time at 10:06:05. Eye witnesses put the time of the crash at 10:06 (accounts reported within hours of the event). I'm confused by the fact your quote states none of the 10:06 documents are publically available, but at the same time says the 2002 document stating the 10:06 crash time is available.

[edit on 4-14-2006 by Valhall]

Originally posted by Griff
I was going to stay away from this thread but, to play devil's advocate. Seekerof...what about all the unintelligibles?

I agree whole mindfully.

Also considering the data is probably faked, why do I think so? It looks like something from a cheesy post 9/11 movie. Also considering it's propoganda.

If it's true, then I would still believe that all the "...engine..." and "cut off the oxygen!" and "God is the greatest" messages show that it was hit. There's too much panic for them to be aiming at the whitehouse or down at the ground.

Originally posted by SMR
Does anyone here carry around OLD EXPIRED driver's license

As far as I can tell, it was issued 9-1-92 and expired 8-31-98

The one belonging to CeeCee Lyles was issued 12-2-97 and expires 11-25-03 which is fine.But Mr. Talignani was carrying around his that was just about 3 years old.

Actually, I did once. My DL expired while I was stationed overseas. When I came back, I couldn't find it, assumed it was lost, and got another. Months later, I found it in a pocket of my wallet.

I still have my 2000 student ID in my wallet. I must be strange.

STUDENT ID IS DIFFERENT FROM DRIVERS LICENSE

Here is what I am getting at with that license incase some dont get it or are wanting to say it isnt strange.
No matter what state, an EXPIRED STATE ISSUED ID is NOT VAILD.
If you lose your new license and drive with your old expired one, you get a ticket for driving with an expired license.If you try and buy tobacco or alcohol with an EXPIRED ID such as we see, YOU CANT.
So my point is, why carry around an almost useless ID card? There are other things you could try and use it for, but it will NOT be excepted as it is old and EXPIRED.For all they care, those who you try and give it to, you dont exsist even if you can plainly see it is you in the picture.I know this as I lost my drivers license once and tried using my old one, even though it was issued AFTER me being 21, I could not buy tobacco or alcohol with it.I also was asked to see that ID at a club and was not let in.
Maybe things are different here in CA, but I wouldnt think it would be when dealing with a STATE ISSUED ID

EDIT TO ADD:
Yes I have my old ID cards, but never on me.I just kept them...not sure why really.They are as good as nothing though being expired.That is why they sit in an old box in the closet.

[edit on 14-4-2006 by SMR]

I live in Washington state and now when you get a new license you have to keep your old one until the new one comes in the mail. You are given a paper copy that is only valid with your old id.

Something like this could be why they had their old ID.

Of course just because something is odd doesn't automatically mean the government faked it.