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Your challenge is accepted - FACTS vs. SYMBOLISM

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posted on Apr, 13 2006 @ 12:03 AM
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I welcome any and all challengers to illustrate why there must be a pre-tribulation rapture and I will explain the theological errors in that argument to you.


Challenge accepted. I'm happy to put Bibical facts against Bibical symbolism. I'll just start with this statement if I might.



Yes, I know about much of the symbolism in the Bible now and the Lord has helped me decode it. The white horse rider is the anointing and sending out of the man-child ministry, the corporate first-fruits leadership of the church through the tribulation. These are people who have already gone through their wilderness time and now lead the church through this time of trouble. This anointing has not yet occured, but is close in time. I think that it will be this year.


I believe you are incorrect on who the white horse rider is. The white horse rider is anti Christ. He is attempting to do the very thing that Jesus, the Lion of the tribe of Judah will do later.




Rev 6:2 And I saw, and behold a white horse: and he that sat on him had a bow; and a crown was given unto him: and he went forth conquering, and to conquer.


He has a crown and he conqueres. AND yet before the red horse is released there is peace on the earth. The false peace of the treaty anti Christ puts his approval on.





Rev 6:3 And when he had opened the second seal, I heard the second beast say, Come and see. 4 And there went out another horse that was red: and power was given to him that sat thereon to take peace from the earth, and that they should kill one another: and there was given unto him a great sword.ext



This is Jesus the Messiah. This is why anti Christ shows up on a white horse, to act like he is the Messiah that brings peace to the world.


Rev 19:11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war. 12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself. 13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God. 14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean. 15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God. 16 And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.




posted on Apr, 13 2006 @ 12:14 AM
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Hi Sun,

I ran out of time for the night. I'll tackle this in the AM.



posted on Apr, 13 2006 @ 12:23 AM
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Originally posted by managerie
Hi Sun,

I ran out of time for the night. I'll tackle this in the AM.



Cool, If possible, don't give me a whole list of things to deal with. A few points at a time so we can cover them properly.

Hopefully, we will both learn something by researching and seeing different thoughts and scriptures.



posted on Apr, 13 2006 @ 05:46 PM
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THE WHITE HORSE RIDER

Lots of people ask who the white horse rider is in the first seal judgment
of the tribulation, Christ or antichrist.

(Rev.6:1) And I saw when the Lamb opened one of the seven seals, and I heard
one of the four living creatures saying as with a voice of thunder, Come.
(2) And I saw, and behold, a white horse, and he that sat thereon had a bow;
and there was given unto him a crown: and he came forth conquering, and to
conquer.

The white horse rider here is neither Christ nor antichrist but Christ in a
modern day body of believers called the man-child. Just as Jesus came in the
beginning of the first 3½ years of the disciple’s tribulation; so the man-child
will come at the beginning of the first 3½ years of the end time tribulation.
Why must this be the first seal judgment?

(1 Pet.4:17) For the time [is come] for judgment to begin at the house of God:
and if [it begin] first at us, what [shall be] the end of them that obey not
the gospel of God?

Just as the man-child Jesus brought the unleavened bread of the truth, confirmed
with signs and wonders, which made Israel and her leaders responsible to repent
or be judged, so it will be with the end time man-child and spiritual Israel.

(Jn.9:39) And Jesus said, For judgment came I into this world, that they that see
not may see; and that they that see may become blind. Simeon prophesied that the
man-child Jesus would cause both the reprobation of some and the grafting in of others.

(Lk.2:34)… Behold, this [child] is set for the falling and the rising of many in
Israel; and for a sign which is spoken against.

Jesus was also a “sign” that the end time man-child would bring the same judgment.
As it was with Jesus and Judaism, the man-child will be “spoken against” by the
apostate “Christians.” Moses as man-child brought the law, which made the rebels
responsible and brought judgment.

(Rom.4:15) for the law worketh wrath; but where there is no law, neither is
there transgression.

What does the “white horse” represent? As the mind of man uses his body as a beast
of burden to do his work, so the horse is harnessed as a beast of burden to do his
work. The horse represents the body or beast.

(Ps.147:10) He delighteth not in the strength of the horse: He taketh no pleasure
in the legs of a man.

To ride a white horse symbolizes to completely harness the strength of your body
or beast to do righteous work. Overcomers ride white horses because their body
is in submission to the spiritual man who submits to the Holy Spirit. Those who
walk by faith do not give any authority to the mind of the flesh to rule but
instead rule over it. Although the man-child will be the first-fruits of the
white horse riders in our day, the elect of the woman will also follow their
Lord on white horses to finish off the judgment after the tribulation.

(Rev.19:11) And I saw the heaven opened; and behold, a white horse, and he that
sat thereon called Faithful and True; and in righteousness he doth judge and make war. …
(14) And the armies which are in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in
fine linen, white [and] pure.

Just as the latter rain outpouring of the Spirit on the man-child will harness his
body as a white horse; so in the rest of the seal judgments evil spirits will ride
upon the beast of the flesh of men to bring these curses upon the earth. The
difference between the man-child and the rest of the riders is that he is the one
who looses these judgments like Jesus, Moses, Jeremiah, etc, did.

(Rev.6:3) And when he opened the second seal, I heard the second living creature
saying, come. (4) And another [horse] came forth, a red horse: and to him that
sat thereon it was given to take peace from the earth, and that they should slay
one another: and there was given unto him a great sword. (5) And when he opened
the third seal, I heard the third living creature saying, Come. And I saw, and
behold, a black horse; and he that sat thereon had a balance in his hand.
(6) And I heard as it were a voice in the midst of the four living creatures
saying, A measure of wheat for a shilling, and three measures of barley for a
shilling (famine); and the oil and the wine hurt thou not. (7) And when he opened
the fourth seal, I heard the voice of the fourth living creature saying, Come.
(8) And I saw, and behold, a pale horse: and he that sat upon him, his name was
Death; and Hades followed with him. And there was given unto them authority over
the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with famine, and with death,
and by the wild beasts of the earth.

Remember that Jesus said, “I have given you authority… over all the power of the enemy.”
Authority in this case is the right to use the power of the demons. The man-child
will exercise “authority” and pass it on to the woman to bring the same “sword,”
“famine,” and “death” to those who return evil for good.

Jeremiah was a type of the man-child who loosed the judgments to come.

(Jer.18:20) Shall evil be recompensed for good? for they have digged a pit for my soul.
Remember how I stood before thee to speak good for them, to turn away thy wrath from them.
(21) Therefore deliver up their children to the famine, and give them over to the power
of the sword; and let their wives become childless, and widows; and let their men be
slain of death, [and] their young men smitten of the sword in battle. Moses and
Samuel represent the same type of the man-child whose words and teachings to the
woman will bring forth the same judgments. (15:1) Then said Jehovah unto me, Though
Moses and Samuel stood before me, yet my mind would not be toward this people: cast
them out of my sight, and let them go forth. (2) And it shall come to pass, when
they say unto thee, Whither shall we go forth? Then thou shalt tell them, Thus saith
Jehovah: Such as are for death, to death; and such as are for the sword, to the sword;
and such as are for the famine, to the famine; and such as are for captivity, to captivity.

Jesus in His first-fruits man-child will send forth the disciples with the Word of
God to bring the above judgments on the world.

(Rev.6:2) And I saw, and behold, a white horse, and he that sat thereon had a bow;
and there was given unto him a crown: and he came forth conquering, and to conquer.

Notice that He has “a bow” but no arrows, meaning they have been sent forth.
“Apostle” means “one sent forth.” As Jesus was from Judah and sent forth His twelve
apostles and then the seventy disciples; so the man-child is spiritually a corporate
body from Judah and will be the bow that sends forth these “arrows.”

(Zech.9:13) For I have bent Judah for me, I have filled the bow with Ephraim
(Ephraim was called in Hebrew the “fullness of nations [Gentiles]” in Genesis 48:19
and represents the woman or church of all nations.); and I will stir up thy sons, O Zion,
against thy sons, O Greece (beast kingdom), and will make thee as the sword of a mighty man.
(14) And Jehovah shall be seen over them; and his arrow shall go forth as the lightning…
(15) Jehovah of hosts will defend them; and they shall devour…

As Jesus’ disciples went forth to conquer the mind of the beast that ruled over the elect
of God, so the man-child disciples will.

(Ps.127:3) Lo, children are a heritage of Jehovah; [And] the fruit of the womb is
[his] reward. (4) As arrows in the hand of a mighty man, So are the children of youth.

Jesus’ disciples, whom he sent out like arrows, were his “children of youth” for he has
had many since then. He called His disciples “children” (Jn.13:33; 21:5).

In Isaiah’s prophecy of the coming of Jesus as Emanuel he called His disciples “children”
(Isa.7:14; 8:16,18). The world wide man-child will send forth the disciple arrows to
conquer the flesh, the beast, and the devil. (5) Happy is the man that hath his quiver
full of them: They shall not be put to shame, When they speak with their enemies in the gate.

The disciple arrows will go forth to conquer the “enemies in the gate” of the kingdom with
the spoken Word. Jesus who was the light and called His disciples “sons of the light” (Jn.12:36)
also said that the light would bring judgment when men denied it.

(Jn.3:19) And this is the judgment, that the light is come into the world, and men loved
the darkness rather than the light; for their works were evil.

The man-child and the disciple arrows will once more bring the light of truth which will
judge the world. This judgment will begin at the house of God and spread outwards. As
it was with Jesus, those who reject the light will be reprobated while those who accept
it will be the “sons of the light.” The white horse rider will bring the foundation for
all judgment, truth. Remember that Moses who was the white horse rider of his day brought
all the judgments on Egypt. As a type of the man-child he led all the other colored
horses of Revelation 6.

This scene is replayed in a different format in the Birth of the Man-child passage in
Revelation 12.

John’s revelation of the end time tribulation begins and ends several times in the book

of Revelation. Each time a different set of parables is used. One of those times is
Revelation 12 and 13. In Revelation 12 John speaks of the man-child and woman.

(Rev.12:1) And a great sign was seen in heaven: a woman arrayed with the sun…
(5) And she was delivered of a son, a man-child….

Some say the woman is Israel and the man-child is Christ. This cannot be. Revelation
was given about sixty-six years after the resurrection of Jesus and the Lord told John
that it would come to pass in the future.

(Rev.4:1)…Come up hither, and I will show thee the things which must come to pass hereafter.

The woman in Revelation 12 is clearly by her description saved and therefore must be the true
church. Church in Greek is “ekklesia” meaning “the called out ones”. They are called out
of both natural Israel and the gentiles to partake of Christ.

(Rev.12:1) a great sign was seen in heaven (The church's position in Christ is seated with
Him in heavenly places [Eph.2:6].) a woman arrayed with the sun (The church’s position is
to be dressed with Christ’s righteousness and works [Rom.13:14].), and the moon under her
feet (Our standing or position is only reflecting the light of the Son as the moon only
reflects the light of the sun.), and upon her head a crown of twelve stars (The doctrine
in her mind and authority by which she rules is that given through the twelve apostles.).

Individuals are used as signs to represent corporate bodies of people who follow them later.

(Isa.7:14) Therefore the Lord himself will give you a sign: behold, a virgin shall conceive,
and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.

Jesus’ birth to Mary or Israel was a sign (Hebrew: “owth” i.e. a sign of something to come)
to be fulfilled in the end. An omen is a sign of something to come. Immanuel means
“God is with us” and He will be with us in the end time. A corporate body, the first fruits
man-child in whom Jesus truly lives will be born to the woman, the true church, before the
beginning of the tribulation (Rev.12:5,6). Isaiah continued to speak of signs.

(8:16) Bind thou up the testimony, seal the law among my disciples.
(18) Behold, I and the children whom the Lord hath given me are for signs and for wonders
in Israel… “I and the children” here are not just Isaiah and his children.

The previous verses (7:14; 8:8,10,16,17) identified “I” here as “Immanuel” (Jesus) who
identified His “disciples” as His “children” (Jn.13:33; 21:5). Jesus and His “disciples”
were “for signs and wonders.”

Jesus’ birth to Mary was a sign to be fulfilled in the end. As Jesus was born to Israel,
so the man-child will be born to the true church before the beginning of the tribulation.

(Rev.12:2) and she was with child… (4)…the dragon standeth before the woman that is about
to be delivered, that when she is delivered he may devour her child. (5) And she was
delivered of a son, a man-child…

The reason this text appears to identify Jesus is that Jesus laid down a physical body in
order to take on a spiritual corporate body through His Word abiding in them. The man-child
is a corporate body within the church that will be the first-fruits in whom the full Word
is manifested. We see in this a clear identification of the end time man-child with Jesus
and Moses, previous types. In all three stories being born of the woman is emphasized.
The woman is not only the natural mother but Israel. The end time man-child is born of
spiritual Israel which we will discuss. In a failed attempt to devour the promised seed
the devil, described in this text as a dragon, in all three types murders the children
(Ex.1:16,22; Mt.2:16). In our case abortion is now being practiced world wide in an attempt
to extinguish a world wide man-child, indicating this to be the timing of these verse.
Ecclesiastes 1:9 talks about how history repeats, though not in always completely obvious ways.


(Rev.12:5) And she was delivered of a son, a man-child, who is to rule all the nations with a
rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and unto his throne. Jesus identified this
“man-child, who is to rule all the nations with a rod of iron” as overcomers who do His works.

(2:26) And he that overcometh, and he that keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give
authority over the nations: (27) and he shall rule them with a rod of iron…as I also have
received of my Father.

Notice that the overcomers are this man-child who walks in the steps and authority of Jesus.
They are Jesus living in a corporate body, which is given over to him by overcoming sin through
faith to do His works. We see that this man-child “was caught up unto God, and unto his throne (12:5).

Jesus had already identified this man-child as a body of overcomers who are given authority to
rule as He was from the throne. (3:21) He that overcometh, I will give to him to sit down
with me in my throne, as I also overcame, and sat down with my Father in his throne.

I'll talk about the anti-christ in a next posting.



posted on Apr, 13 2006 @ 06:03 PM
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I am looking through the scriptures and having trouble finding a scripture where I can definitively say this is talking about a single human being.

Daniel 9:27 refers to the "he" is the same prince that shall come who destroyed the city of Jerusalem and the sanctuary in 70AD. That's a spirit.

The wounded one of seven heads is the fall of the Roman Empire that will revive.

In the discussions of the antichrist in 1 John and 2 John, it refers to a spirit
over a body of people, a principality called antichrist.

Perhaps you could show me where there is one single ruler who is antichrist in the word? I don't see it.

As to the antichrist being on a white horse. The only time we see the spirit realm describe satan with white or light of any kind is:

And no wonder, for Satan himself masquerades as an angel of light. (2 Cor 11:14).

Notice that the verse says maquerading, but the actual description of him from the view of God in discussions of the spirit realm is darkness.

But in Revelation, the white horse rider, is not masquerading as a white horse...it is a white horse. The same type of white horse that Jesus and the saints following ride at their return.

(11) And I saw the heaven opened; and behold, a white horse, and he that sat thereon called Faithful and True; and in righteous he doth judge and make war. (14) And the armies which are in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and pure. (Rev 19:11,14)

Not the appearance or masquerade of white or light, but real.

Perhaps I have missed some references that I should address that seem contradictory. I welcome your inputs.

I may not be able to answer until tomorrow.



posted on Apr, 14 2006 @ 01:10 AM
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Wow.....................You are making things way too hard.

Why would all of the other 4 seals be bad things and the first seal be a good thing? The first seal is clearly the anti Christ, being received as the Messiah of the world.

Could I ask you what religion you follow?



posted on Apr, 14 2006 @ 06:14 AM
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Hi Sun,

I don't follow any particular Christian denomination. I was just a church going nominal Christian until Dec 2003. I went to a conference that I knew I had to attend despite my wife's concerns about my driving in the snow. I somehow knew that I was supposed to go forward to be prayed over by one of the ministers there. When he prayed over me, an impartation was given to me that I had a physical reaction to and I knew I had received the Holy Spirit at that time. I did not break out in tongues, but I knew I had changed. I guess some would call this the Baptism of the Holy Spirit.

After this point, lots of things changed. I started getting dreams I knew were from God. Some were instructional, some warning, and others gave me tasks to do. Also, as it says in Luke 24:32,45, the scriptures were opened for me to understand. The Bible was just a series of disconnected stories up until this time with no underlying knowledge or understanding. It was dry and boring. God drew me into the word and now I can spend hours studying it and absorbing it. It's now my only hobby.

I go to an Evengelical Free Church, but I don't believe as they do in the pastor doing everything. I am looking forward to the five-fold ministry being restored by the Lord to mature and perfect the saints. There are several points that God has corrected me on that are still in the church.
I am anti-denominational. As the Apostle Paul encouraged believers to be knowingly defrauded before the world rather than to bring our divisions before the world, so I believe in one flock with one shepherd, Jesus.

Of the five different ministries: pastor, teacher, evangelist, apostle, and prophet, I am a teacher. It is my spiritual gift and when I teach people, they see that I have a gift for doing it. I may have others, but it does not appear that others have shown themselves to nearly the degree that teaching has.

I am sorry that my postings seem complicated. I absolutely believe these explanations to be correct after a lot of review. The end times story of the Lord has such genius. I had to come to understand that the culmination of 6000 years of human history would be from the genius of Jesus mind and well hidden from the expected outcomes.

As far as history repeating, there have been some revelations along the way, too many to share now.

The man-child ministry is a critical departure from most pastorates in the world. But, as John 14:12 says, the greater works that Jesus promised are still ahead. I had to agree with the following verses that I could be taught by God's spirit.

But the Comforter, even the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all that I said unto you. (John 14:26)

Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he shall guide you into all the truth: for he shall not speak from himself; but what things soever he shall hear, these shall he speak: and he shall declare unto you the things that are to come. (John 16:13)

Consider what I say; for the Lord shall give thee understanding in all things. (2 Timothy 2:7)

And they said one to another, Was not our heart burning within us, while he spake to us in the way, while he opened to us the scriptures? Then opened he their mind, that they might understand the scriptures. (Luke 24: 32, 45)

And as for you, the anointing which ye received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any one teach you; but as his anointing teacheth you; concerning all things, and is true, and is no lie, and even as it taught you, ye abide in him. (1 John 2:27)
Oh how love I thy law! It is my meditation all the day. Thy commandments make me wiser than mine enemies; For they are ever with me. I have more understanding than all my teachers; For thy testimonies are my meditation. I understand more than the aged, Because I have kept thy precepts. I have refrained my feet from every evil way, That I might observe thy word. I have not turned aside from thine ordinances; For thou hast taught me. How sweet are thy words unto my taste! Yea, sweeter than honey to my mouth! Through thy precepts I get understanding: Therefore I hate every false way. Thy word is a lamp unto my feet, And light unto my path. (Psalm 119:97-105)

I count on this and I search the scriptures to see if what I am being shown is true. It has to be in the Word. But, it requires me to accept what I am seeing regardless of what other men are saying or have said through the centuries. When Jesus came to the world, most of Judaism had corrupted the teachings of the Word and did not recognize Him. When the man-child ministry is birthed and we see Jesus (2 Cor 3:18, 1 John 4:2) in full fruition in a body of believers (I don't know if I am one of them, but I know I was called. I don't know if I'll be selected) working signs and miracles and preaching this word, they also will be rejected and fought against by the mainstream church again who fail to put the pieces together. Remember, that the saints are martyred by those who believe they are doing service to God. The man-child will be thought of as heretics again and persecuted while they preach the unmixed word of God from the scriptures, regardless of modern day church tradition. They will upset the power structures in the modern church and be hated for it as Jesus upset the powers that be in Judaism and was hated. History will repeat, only with a larger cast of people.

In short, one of the local pastors who believes me about the word called me a disciple of Jesus (a learner, follower). I think that sums it up. I am far from perfect. The closer I get with the Lord, the more I get a window into my own insufficiency. It really is all about Him.

Edit: I was just thinking further. I went to Harvey Mudd College in my youth. There was a class there called Physical Chemistry, P-Chem for short. It was known as a very tough course (lucky me). The final exam was 4 hours long and had only one question on it with two pages of data. You needed to know the entire semester's work to process all of the data to come up with the answer to that one question. For your entire life, you never forget the question: What is the absolute entropy of Hydrogen Bromide at 25 degrees C. What a nightmare!

By doing any of this, I am not trying to be right for the sake of pumping myself up. A lot of people do not understand this plan and may, as a result, unknowingly persecute the man-child group as they work in their ministries coming up. It will be to their own destruction if they do. The word says "my people are destroyed for lack of knowledge". This is, by far, my biggest concern.

To me, understanding of God's end-time plan takes a cumulative understanding like that. The culmination of all human history to select His elect for the kingdom of Heaven involves His entire identity and His entire Word. Jesus is drawing it all together for the final battles. He will see His saints grow up into full maturity and do the greater works always promised. The latter rain (Joel 2 and elsewhere) will be the greater wine (wedding at Cana) (now I know why they call it "spirits") than the former rain of the spirit that we have received until now. You will see some serious miracles and people preaching the word as never before, but persecuted because it will upset the status quo, the power structures, and tradition that was added by the church to its own destriment. If we look at the parable of the sower and Zech 13, we see that 2/3 of people in the church today will be lost in the coming years. This is an almost incomprehensible tragedy to me that I am trying to prevent or at least make sure it is nobody I could have reached.

[edit on 14-4-2006 by managerie]



posted on Apr, 14 2006 @ 01:24 PM
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Thank you for your candid answers Managerie


Could you answer a few more questions?

Have you read any of these books?

1) THE HARVEST

2) SUBDUE THE EARTH, RULE THE NATIONS

3) HELD IN THE HEAVENS


And also, do you live in Canada, or Ohio?

Thank you.
Sun.



posted on Apr, 14 2006 @ 02:06 PM
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Originally posted by Sun Matrix
Thank you for your candid answers Managerie


Could you answer a few more questions?

Have you read any of these books?

1) THE HARVEST

2) SUBDUE THE EARTH, RULE THE NATIONS

3) HELD IN THE HEAVENS


And also, do you live in Canada, or Ohio?

Thank you.
Sun.


HI Sun,

I never read any of those books. Sorry.

I live in Los Angeles, CA. I lived in Maryland for two years which I loved, but the Lord called our family back to Los Angeles last July. We had to obey so here we are again.



posted on Apr, 14 2006 @ 02:40 PM
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Managerie,

Those books are written by people that push the kind of teaching that you are talking about.

They want to substitute the Church for Israel. God says he will do a "New" thing to Israel and the teaching has incorrectly substituted a new thing to the church.



Anyway, I know your heart is good so lets proceed to your original challenge. I believe in a pre trib rapture. Do you believe in a post trib or no rapture at all?



posted on Apr, 14 2006 @ 05:27 PM
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Originally posted by Sun Matrix
Managerie,

Those books are written by people that push the kind of teaching that you are talking about.

They want to substitute the Church for Israel. God says he will do a "New" thing to Israel and the teaching has incorrectly substituted a new thing to the church.



Anyway, I know your heart is good so lets proceed to your original challenge. I believe in a pre trib rapture. Do you believe in a post trib or no rapture at all?


I know the pentecostal movement loves the "new thing" buzzword. Eccl 1:9 makes it clear that there is no "new" thing. It is the same old thing in a repetition of history. It just doesn't always look like a repetition unless you see the spiritual side and a glimpse of the view from God's eyes.

I believe in a post-tribulation rapture. It happens 1335 days after the setting up of the mark of the beast.

Noah's ark was a prophetic type. Noah was 7 days in the ark (secret place of the most high) for 7 years of tribulation in which we are seperated from the world at some level. When the wrath/flood started, Noah was protected on the earth 40 days before he lifted off. So shall we be 40 days on the earth during the start of the wrath in the day of the Lord that last a year (Isa 34:8). We will be up in Heaven with the Lord for about a year (Note Noah was in the Ark for about a year) while the day of the Lord progresses in wrath, then we return with Him (Rev 19) to finish off the last of the enemy. As Matt 24 says, "as it was in the days of Noah".

So the brief timeline looks like this.

The battle we are about to head into is in Daniel 8:1-9 which precedes the tribulation which is in 8:10 and on. Sure, the first fulfillment was with the GReeks, but notice the way it says the he-goat strikes with great speed over all the earth without ever touching the ground. Greece was close by and Alexander the Great had no navy. This speaks of sea and air power and we come from 1/2 way around the world to combat Elam (Iran) who is pushing westward into Iraq, Syria, and Southward as well (contorl the persian gulf with their navy). We will win as Elam will not be able to stand against us.

Jeremiah 25, if we are the king of Babylon, which we are at present, shows how Nebuchadnezzar invaded the countries round about. I knew about this a year and a halff ago before Iran was on the news headlines.

This battle will scare enough people to agree to unite religions under one head religion in which the exclusivity of following Jesus will be illegal. Thus the persecution to follow which will ramp up in the first 3 1/2 years of the tribulation period.

The man-child ministry is critical because it is the first judgment. This is one last opportunity to follow the Lord with fresh empowerment and, like Moses, the man-child group will free God's people from the entanglements of this world and seperate them out as the eclesia/church/"the called out ones". The man-child will provide for, teach, and protect the church for the first 3 1/2 years. As Moses proclaimed the judgments on Egypt when they persecuted the Jews, so shall the saints proclaim judgment on the world as the world tries to take the saints captive. Then all heaven will break loose, so to speak.

Soon, there will be an economic collapse and the mark of the beast will be setup. At first voluntary advertising all the benefits, but soon after, compulsory. The reason God will brong this about is because He has made it clear before that there is no buying and selling in God's kingdom, only giving and receiving, (Prov 23:23, Matt 10:8, 2 Cor 2:17 ("corrupting" should say "making merchandise of"), and John 2:16). Believers will have to decide which kingdom they belong to.

The second half of the tribulation will be war against the saints and many will be martyred for the faith. God is actually planning this part. Those who do not die to self in the faith will have to die physically as it is appointed unto man once to die, one way or another.

At the end of the tribulation, the sun will be darkened and the moon also.
Then we have the one year day of the Lord which includes Armageddon and other battles. The passages that I see dealing with the day of the Lord are: Acts 2:20, 2 Pet 3:10, Joel 2: 10,31, Mark 13:24, Mt 24:29, Zech 14, Isa 34:8, Ezekiel 38-39, Isa 61:2, Psalm 149, Lk 21: 20-27, Isa 13:10, Jeremiah 50-51, Rev 16:14 (1st battle) to Rev 19 (last battle), Jude 14-15.
The overall war of the day of hte Lord is not Armageddon. That is just one battle. The war is called the "war of the great day of God" (Rev 16:14).

We will return with the Lord in glorified bodies and reign for 1000 years of the millenial sabbath (the rest of the seventh day).

I would like to understand why you think there is a pre-trib rapture. I believed it simply because that's what I was taught. Then I started reading the Word more seriously and I had several pretty obvious problems with the pre-trib rapture:


1. Revelation 20 - Souls of those beheaded - first resurrection. We also know from 1 Thes 4:16 that Rapture occurs at time of first resurrection.
2. Job 14:12 - sleep and do not rise until Heavens rolled away, not 7 years before.

3. Joshua 6 - Jericho story - flesh falls after 7 times around on 7th day. "Times" used as unit of measure for ruling duration of beast. (Dan 7:25, 12:7, Rev 12:14)

4. Exodus - Feast of Unleavened Bread last 7 days before leaving Egypt.
Sign of time of teaching of the man-child and judgments on the world for seven years.

5. Genesis 6, Dan 12:12 - Noah seven days in the ark before the wrath of God came, 40 days of wrath, then lifted up. (much like the 7 years plus 40 days at end of tribulation).

6. God's people, whether physical Israel or spiritual Israel, have never been pulled out of facing the beast kingdoms which were raised due to their disobedience and all of those beast kingdoms, or the spirits that were in them, are in the one being raised now against the church. We will face the beast again. The worst and most terrible of them all. Only those who enter into the works of Jesus by faith (Hebrews 4) and know that Jesus lives in them, who cooperate in sanctification of the soul, will make it through this time.

7. In Daniel 3, Meschach, Shadrach, and Abednago are thrown in the fire heated up 7 times (for 7 years). The tribulation fire served to burn the bonds (ropes) to the flesh off of them, killed the ones who put them in the fire, and the Lord met them in the midst of the fire. And so shall it be with us. Notice that 7 times is used again as in the end-times descriptions of time, times and half a time. Notice also, that most of the time, when the Lord fought in the day of battle (Zech 14) he split the enemy into three groups. Reference, battles of Gideon and Jehospohat. In the end times, the beast kingdom is split into the King of the South, East, and North, and again, they are made to destroy each other just like in the old testament battles. The three hebrews Meschach, Shadrach, and Abednago represent the parts of Christs body in each of the three kingdoms (in other words, all over the world).


I am interested in any other questions you have. There is so much more to be seen.

In Daniel 4, and Jeremiah 25, 27 we see the US as the King of Babylon in latter days fulfillment being the head of the one world government, the hammer of the world for these 7 years (was 70, now 7 this time) and then utterly destroyed in the day of the Lord. God is ordaining that as you can see in Jeremiah. The US will take on the character of a beast, like Nebuchadnezzar, and eat grass (destroy people, 1Pet 1:24, Isa 40:6 all flesh is as grass). We can see beginnings of that now. The revival of the Roman Empire has the US at the head, but few will see this for quite a while.

It's just not possible, is it? And we sit and wonder at the aggression and the attacking of countries and the demonation of foreign lands. It is God in His sovereignty who is bring this about with the final result of testing the believers and judging the world at the end. It has always been that way.

Here is another interesting hint at the US as Rome, part II, the sequel. In Luke 13:4-5, the tower of Siloam falls during Rome part I and 18 (6+6+6) people are killed. We just had two towers fall, the twin towers of the world trade center fall 5 years ago.

Isaiah 30:25-26 talk about the great slaughter in the days that the towers fall (twin towers?) and then the light of the moon (moon glory 1 Cor 15:40, 2Cor 3:18) shall be seven fold (take on 7 spirits of God as man-child annointed) as the light of seven days (years) in the day that Jehovah bindeth up the hurt of his people (Hosea 6:1-3 after two days, Luke 10 parable of Good samaritan binds up wounds, etc).

There are a lot of hints and symbolism all over the place, but without the Holy Spirit to help, there is no way to see it. I sure didn't and couldn't. No way, no how. I even one a medal in high school for interpreting the symbolism of literature, so my brain is wired this way, but I could not see this before.

If we consider it carefully, if it was obvious without the spirits leading, people would not be having debates on these issues for the last two thousand years. It is also very important not to blame those who have come before. There are certain revelations that the Lord has intentionally protected until the last days so no one would know. He told Daniel that at the end of the book.

[edit on 14-4-2006 by managerie]



posted on Apr, 14 2006 @ 11:20 PM
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Hey Managerie,

LOL, I just attempted to respond to your post, it was a long one. I hit the wrong button and poof it was gone. That's all for me tonight, I'll try again tomorrow.



posted on Apr, 15 2006 @ 12:19 AM
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Originally posted by Sun Matrix
Hey Managerie,

LOL, I just attempted to respond to your post, it was a long one. I hit the wrong button and poof it was gone. That's all for me tonight, I'll try again tomorrow.


Oh, I've done that too! All the typing gone. Now I always cut and paste to a Notepad window before I hit the button to make sure I don't lose what I wrote. I may not be able to address any more til Monday, what with the Easter weekend and all.



posted on Apr, 15 2006 @ 12:56 AM
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Some things worth considering:

White is always a color of purity and designates light in the scripture.

Seals, in the times the scripture was written, were a symbol of regnal authority and meant that whatever was bearing the seal of the king could be trusted to be untampered with and authorized by him.

The crown of the first rider is a 'stephanos' which is the crown that a victor wears after conquest--it is a crown of glory. Also, the Greek meaning of the word translated bow is not accurate as is commonly believed--it doesn't mean fake, but rather 'of the simplest fabric.'

Lastly, this book is the 'Revelation of Jesus Christ.' The full unveiling of God's plan for the world, through our LORD. It is not a book about the antichrist, or the devil. It is telling us the whole story--and it is not a warning but a promise.



posted on Apr, 16 2006 @ 12:29 AM
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In Daniel 4, and Jeremiah 25, 27 we see the US as the King of Babylon in latter days fulfillment being the head of the one world government, the hammer of the world for these 7 years


I will go back and answer the rest of this post later. I am so burnt from all that work and then loosing it. LOL, that's why I asked you not to list a bunch of stuff. It seem like I melt down on giant post and loose everything. Instead one giant post, how about 10 short posts


I do want to comment on this point now. The U.S. is not the King of Babylon. The U.S. is not the hammer of the whole earth. The hammer of the whole earth is Babylon.

This is the same problem we have with people trying to substitute the church for Israel. Israel is Israel. They just had no faith that Israel would ever be restored.

So try this, instead of making the scripture fit to what you think with symbolism, just read it exactly as it says.
You don't understand how Babylon can be the hammer of the whole world as it says, so you are looking around and saying that the U.S. is the only world hammer out there, so it must be the U.S.

Wrong, it is Babylon. Now all you need to do is understand how Babylon is the hammer of the whole world. It is Babylon being judged, so they have to be the hammer.

What is happening in the world right now is very likely the fulfillment of Jeremiah 50 and 51.

Hope you have a great day.............No Easter sunrise services, I hope.



posted on Apr, 16 2006 @ 01:34 AM
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Originally posted by queenannie38
Some things worth considering:

White is always a color of purity and designates light in the scripture.

Seals, in the times the scripture was written, were a symbol of regnal authority and meant that whatever was bearing the seal of the king could be trusted to be untampered with and authorized by him.

The crown of the first rider is a 'stephanos' which is the crown that a victor wears after conquest--it is a crown of glory. Also, the Greek meaning of the word translated bow is not accurate as is commonly believed--it doesn't mean fake, but rather 'of the simplest fabric.'

Lastly, this book is the 'Revelation of Jesus Christ.' The full unveiling of God's plan for the world, through our LORD. It is not a book about the antichrist, or the devil. It is telling us the whole story--and it is not a warning but a promise.


Hi Queenannie,

I perceive that you have some insights into the spirit of what is going on on the books. I would like to review insights with you further on these things.



posted on Apr, 16 2006 @ 01:48 AM
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[So try this, instead of making the scripture fit to what you think with symbolism, just read it exactly as it says.


The letter kills, but the spirit gives life. That was true in Moses law. It will be true now. The failure to understand the underlying principles of the God of Abraham who does not change. The one who takes people out into the wilderness to try them will do it again.

Most of the laodecian church thinks that they have no need of refinement. That the God who delivered once and for all the faith we are supposed to follow, has now changed it to the Nicolaitan (spelling?) error of placing a king over the church (Pastor) instead of the five-fold ministry to perfect the saints. That we can do whatever we want and there is no danger of being reprobated by God. That we can mix money changing with the world with all of our God merchandise when the Lord expressly says that the kingdom of God is about giving and receiving, no selling.

When the tribulation starts and the persecution starts, the people who foget that the Lord refines His people by having them be persecuted by the beast now expects that we will somehow fly away from this persecution when no flesh of fleshly life or sin can inherit the kingdom of God. We have forgotten the severity and the fear of the Lord which the church desperately needs to be reminded of so that their souls are saved in the Day of Judgment. That we believe that we do not have to walk by faith in our lives since we have doctors, money, food, and all the provisions by our own workings. That we believe that we do not have to do the greater works than the Lord - that He was just kidding when He said that.

When the persecution starts, 2/3 of the church will fall away during these seven years. They will be offended that God made them go through this when they had need of nothing. They will be offended that there Giants of ministry today will not be leading the people at that time. How could they have missed all the meanings?

The believed that God changed. That he would somehow keep them from going through the judgment when He never has before when they went through it, but rather, the Lord met them in it and refined them through it.

We have fallen away from so much, but like the Jews before Christ came, most don't even know where we have fallen short of God's plan anymore. And this Lord will be thought of as cruel for bringing what is coming on us and souls will be lost to offense at the one who judges rightly.

So, as the Law of Moses exposes our shortcomings in the letter and brought death, so the Spirit of God gave us life. Simply reading the word only as written without consideration of the Spirit's guiding to the underlying consistent meaning in parables of the events and how they foreshadow is ever consistent principles through the word, the letter of the
Word will again bring death to souls.



posted on Apr, 16 2006 @ 03:44 AM
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Originally posted by managerie
Hi Queenannie,

I perceive that you have some insights into the spirit of what is going on on the books. I would like to review insights with you further on these things.


I'd love to. Revelation is profound and enigmatic--yet, as is fitting with the title of this thread, sums up the gospel with symbology that is found elsewhere in scripture. The primary method of interpretation these days relies more on external human events (geo-politics and alliances) rather than God's word, itself.

BUT:

'The spirit of prophesy is the testimony of Jesus Christ.'

Which means that any interpretation that does not center itself around Christ is somehow being misunderstood.

I'm not well-versed on the delicacies of preterism vs futurism, et al., and so have never tried to follow any set of rules as far as time in Revelation. I find that many start prophetic interpretation with some sort of timeline; but God is beyond time and we are (for the moment) trapped within time. Christ warned us of such an approach, but his warning is rarely heeded.

Revelation is the 'unveiling' of Christ's work, as ordained by God, on behalf of mankind. It is the true mate of the book of Genesis--without one or the other we would not have the complete story available (although shrouded, no doubt!) What Genesis introduces, Revelation sums up. More than that, though, it is actually a summing up and filling in of all the bible that lies between--and all references can be found somewhere within the scriptures.

Symbology is not correctly applied as opposition or competition for facts; the 'facts' that the bible is truly concerned with are not the sort we are used to dealing with. Biblical truth is spiritual in nature, not material--but since we are only just arriving at a time in our development where we are beginning to grasp concepts that truly do lie beyond our limited reality, the only way possible to teach us these spiritual facts is through material symbology. This symbology is consistent and repetitive throughout scripture--when Jung gave us his understandings of archetypes, he was not minimizing the grand truth of reality but rather beginning an explanation of how God works on the mortal mind. Unless we can begin to picture ideas in our minds, that can not be seen with our physical eyes, we cannot begin to understand what lies beyond our current state of existence.

I've got a lot of notes concerning the 7 seals, accumulated from my own personal study sessions. I want to share some of them, but in a concise manner, so I'll be back with those that I feel are significant, and verses to reference, so that you can look into them on your own.



posted on Apr, 16 2006 @ 08:27 AM
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Hi Queenannie, I perceive that you have some insights into the spirit of what is going on on the books. I would like to review insights with you further on these things.


Hi Managerie,

Have you perceived that Queenannie is not a Christian?



posted on Apr, 16 2006 @ 08:30 AM
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Revelation 6:1 seal
Sealed by the King—in antiquity, only the King and his trusted scribe had the authority of the seal, because it was a guarantee of privacy, authenticity, and protection from tampering.

None of the four horsemen are ‘the antichrist’ masquerading as Christ: because that would be a trick. God would not purposely trick us by revealing something false within the frame of the integrity of His Divine Seal. The seals tell us that all 7 images can be trusted and as such, are not deception.

The imagery of this section begins with something concealed (and sealed) being finally revealed. Besides making a pretty neat rhyme, this concept is one that is consistent throughout the bible in regard to God and man’s relationship. And only through Christ was God finally, in full and authentic character, revealed to mankind.


External source: KJV, Public Domain
All things are delivered to me of my Father: and no man knoweth who the Son is, but the Father; and who the Father is, but the Son, and he to whom the Son will reveal him.
(~Luke 10:22)


The contents of the seven seals represent 7 different methods of God’s outworking toward spreading the gospel of His Master Plan. The contents cannot be assumed to be future events—scrolls sealed in the present were written sometime previously—that’s just common sense. God planned all His moves before the foundation of the world (or cosmos, the present human generation) but did not disclose until the work was finished.


External source: KJV, Public Domain
But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory:
(~1 Corinthians 2:7)

Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints:
(~Colossians 1:26)


White Horse


External source: KJV, Public Domain
And I saw, and behold a white horse: and he that sat on him had a bow; and a crown was given unto him: and he went forth conquering, and to conquer.
(~Revelation 6:2)


The Greek word translated as ‘white’ has its root in a word meaning ‘light.’ The bow represents a couple of things. One is God’s first covenant with man, through Noah:


External source: KJV, Public Domain
I do set my bow in the cloud, and it shall be for a token of a covenant between me and the earth.
(~Genesis 9:13)


This was a bow signifying a covenant of the ‘simplest fabric,’ a promise from God to never again kill all flesh on Earth. Whenever we see that bow in the clouds, we are to remember His perfect faithfulness in keeping His promises.

When Jacob (Israel) is on his death-bed he addresses each of his sons. In the blessing given to Joseph we find the most relevance to the first horseman:


External source: KJV, Public Domain
Joseph is a fruitful bough, even a fruitful bough by a well; whose branches run over the wall: The archers have sorely grieved him, and shot at him, and hated him: But his bow abode in strength, and the arms of his hands were made strong by the hands of the mighty God of Jacob; (from thence is the shepherd, the stone of Israel

Even by the God of thy father, who shall help thee; and by the Almighty, who shall bless thee with blessings of heaven above, blessings of the deep that lieth under, blessings of the breasts, and of the womb:
The blessings of thy father have prevailed above the blessings of my progenitors unto the utmost bound of the everlasting hills: they shall be on the head of Joseph, and on the crown of the head of him that was separate from his brethren.
(~Genesis 49:22-26)


The first seal reveals the foundation of the family of God, which began informally with Noah and officially with Abraham. This is the beginning, the root, of the conquest which came to fruition on the cross—this is the LORD’s manifestation in the OT.

Red Horse


External source: KJV, Public Domain
And there went out another horse that was red: and power was given to him that sat thereon to take peace from the earth, and that they should kill one another: and there was given unto him a great sword.
(~Revelation 6:4)


There are two words in Greek representing ‘red’ in the NT. ‘Kokkinos’ basically means scarlet colored, but the one used in this verse (purrhos) means ‘fire-like’ or ‘flame-colored.’

Fire:
Deuteronomy 4:24, 33, 5:24
1 Kings 18:24
Hebrews 12:29

Sword:
Matthew 10:34
Ephesians 6:17
Hebrews 4:12

This is the LORD’s manifestation in the NT.

The black horse is judgment, and the pale horse is human mortality. The 5th seal, in Revelation 6:9: the saints under the altar—this also is a direct representation of God’s outworking. Their testimony is a vital (read: living, vibrant, energetized) strategy within the overall conquest.

Then the 6th seal reveals the called-out assembly which is the body of Christ (not ‘the church’ and not Israel, as far as some sort of national identity.) These are the elect, called to work in the harvesting of the world, led by the angels, in the name of the Most High; and those who wear white robes are the fruit of the harvest---the harvest which is being gathered in the present.

Lastly, we have the prayers of the saints (represented by smoke, which is a key to understanding what Revelation 14:11). These prayers are the pure and holy thoughts of God's workers. This is direct mental/spiritual guidance of those who have (and will) inherit the kingdom.

I just outlined the last parts, since I’m running out of time and space, but I do have scriptural references for these things, too. I just didn’t want to leave my main-theme thoughts on the seals incomplete--and I wanted to leave some things to ponder and look into for anyone interested.

I have never gotten anything but immediate and staunch resistance when I've shared the fruits of my studies--something that doesn't offend me or surprise me, since really I expect it.

The thing about it is, which is something I rarely have actually tried to explain, is this:

Yes, these interpretations do seem totally wrong when compared with the copious amounts of so-called biblical scholastics offered by the preceding generations of the last dozen or so centuries.

However, the bible is the reed by which we are to measure, and against that, the popular opinion does not stand.

One would be hard pressed to find symbolic examples in the bible to support the ideas that most accept as truth. I searched for proof, beyond the standardly promoted set of cut and paste verses that are offered as testament to these ideas. What I found was astounding, and it in no way upholds these teachings.

For the most part, those who desire to follow Christ and His teachings and example actually follow the opinions and guess-ulations of mankind. Going to seminary school or somehow finding a niche as a man of the cloth in no way guarantees that the intepretation is not one of a 'private' nature (2 Peter 1:20). Neither does a majority vote by human hands give any authority to that which is not supported by scripture.



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